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Auto weather poll

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by MeteorMiss, Jan 23, 2013.

?

What should Smogon do regarding auto weather?

  1. Ban Drizzle

    149 vote(s)
    26.9%
  2. Ban all Auto-weather

    112 vote(s)
    20.3%
  3. Keep it as it is

    292 vote(s)
    52.8%
Thread Status:
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  1. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Not really. Most pokemon can check or counter more than one weather (Mamo beats sand and sun and can even beat on rain rachi, torni, and just plain good). If rain didn't exist, we'd be limited in building by something else. It's not like if rain left that water attacks suddenly suck; you still need water absorbants, etc. I fail to see how weather limits the meta game anymore than a non-weather meta game would imo.
  2. BdB4445

    BdB4445

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    What about all of rain's perks compounding with the fact that the weather lasts the entire match and it only requires switching in / leading? It doesn't take up an item slot, it doesn't take up a move slot, it only takes a turn for an ideal switch-in (although it takes up an ability which isn't much of an opportunity cost).

    That's my main problem: It's free, last forever, and empowers numerous unique threats (btw I guess Ferrothorn isn't worth a mention?). Shouldn't something so valuable that lasts the entire game cost something, other than using Politoed for a (edit) team slot?

    Rain (along with Sun) needs suspecting in my opinion.
  3. BKC

    BKC
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    the "rant" has plenty of solid reasoning behind it if you've played the game enough and can actually analyze what's going on during the match, not just the end result.

    i'll tone the argument down to where everyone can understand it; rain is brutally overpowering to the point that where if you're not running it yourself, you either have no problems with it because you've bent over backwards to do so or you get completely slaughtered by it. it is much more restricting than any other playstyle and anyone who thinks different is kidding themselves.

    is it so hard to just give drizzle a suspect test?
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Weatherless teams do not only have a chance to win one match-up. Weatherless teams usually have weaknesses to specific Pokemon, and not to entire team-types. This is why they are more consitent than Sun and Rain teams. Because they are less match-up based, so the battle is more influenced by your skill and decisions. Sun and Rain are better in only a specific sense, the sense that they are easier to build, use, and win against teams that are at a disadvantage because of the team match-up. And even if i accept that Sun and Rain teams are a bit better overall than weatherless teams, so what? Better teams and strategies exist in every meta, and as long as they can be beaten without taking ridiculous measures, and as long as they don't kill other playstyles (which would mean limiting diversity), they are just fine. Finally, where did you get the idea that weatherless teams are at a disadvantage against sun and sand teams? Weatherless teams will be at a disadvantage at whatever they chose to be weak to, and this is their strength, their versatility.

    EDIT: Also about Kingdra... I saw someone somewhere saying that Kingdra is only useful against rain, and that it is shit against anything else. Rain Dance Kingdra is nothing like that and fares just fine against Sun and Sand, making it a very good Pokemon to run in a Rain weak team.
  5. Zephir

    Zephir

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    There's a difference between needing a water resistance and be forced to use a BULKY (and preferably fast) water resistance able to recover the damages or a water absorber because otherwise Keldeo in rain fucks you.
    Yeah, i just had the impression you were saying "weatherless can beat rain so it's just as good if not better". I would not say that a weatherless is more consistent than a weather lol, if you built a team that has an edge over Rain/Sand and doesn't get fucked by Sun/DeoD then RMT it asap ! Also I think that beating rain with a weatherless takes huge measure, and beating both Rain and Sun + Volcarona with hp ground or dugtrio (Venusaur is included in "sun") takes ridiculous measures.
    Finally, I don't know if "disadvantage" has a weird meaning in english, but yes weatherless has to deal with an initial disadvantage against Rain/Sun. If a soccer team plays on its homefield, it has an advantage though it doesn't mean that it wont lose / is inherently better...
  6. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    responses in bold

    smh
  7. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    I didn't say that. Actually, my post was mostly the opposite. Kingdra can't do jack to a team full of Water types and Steel types, and it begs for Ferrothorn to come in. Also, Rain Dance Kingdra was one of my exceptions, seeing as it messes up Sand and Sun teams, but it requires the rest of the team to not get shafted by the rain it needs to work.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    It requires the rest of the team to not get shafted by the rain it needs to work? So basically the team must not have a Fire attack user and that's it? And even if you have a Fire move in your team you can use it just fine, as Kingdra usually comes out late game. So can you mention some examples of Pokemon that can't be used with Rain Dance Kingdra because they don't like being in rain?
  9. Ilikestuff

    Ilikestuff

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    I think rain is not broken, but things like torn-t, thundurus and drizzle+swift swim, were banned because of rain, that is why I think they should ban it.
  10. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Some stuff needs Fire moves for coverage, such as Celebi, Lati@s (to an extent, they can go without it), TTar, some mixed Kyu-B sets, Salamence, Hydreigon, and HP Fire Gengar are the ones that immediately come to mind. There's also defensive things to worry about. I'm thinking about being ruined because of stuff like Scarf Keldeo, Starmie, etc. decided to show up after you Rain Danced, got KO'd (Kingdra has good bulk, but it isn't invincible), and they take advantage of it and spam Hydro Pump at you. And of course there's going to be that guy running Rain Dish Tentacruel and Dry Skin Toxicroak in weatherless that ordinarily wouldn't be huge problems, but now they are. You have to be prepared for other teams to use your weather as well, just like you try to use theirs.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Keldeo gets outsped and dies from Kingdra's DM anyway, and if Kingdra doesn't have DM, Keldeo should have been weakened already. Anyway enough theory, use Kingdra on your offensive team and then come back with results. Everything you said is a non-issue in real play and the limitations to using Rain Dance on your weatherless team are non-existent.
  12. Deglas

    Deglas

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    The problem with weather is that NOTHING that is not weather is anywhere near the same magnitude as Drizzle (and Drought) as team support.


    Hazards? Residual damage on switches; can be spun away, Magic Bounced/Coated, Taunted; requires a turn (or more) to set up; requires a moveslot.


    Dual Screens? Half damage for 8 turns; can be taunted, stalled out; requires 2 turns , 2 moveslots, and typically an item.


    (Space to answer other forms of team support)

    Drizzle? Boosts Water-type moves, that have good neutral coverage, by 50%; reduces Fire-type moves by 50%, buffing the already defensively great Steel type; fixes Thunder's and Hurricane's accuracy; gives free healing to Pokemon with certain Abilities, like Dry Skin and Rain Dish; gives Pokemon with Hydration practical immunity to status; activates Swift Swim (which we banned); lasts entire battle, cannot be removed except with weather; requires a teamslot; must switch in to activate.

    Drought? Boosts Fire-type moves 50%; Reduces Water-type moves 50%; activates Chlorophyll; makes Growth twice as effective; lasts entire battle; cannot be removed except with weather; requires a teamslot; must switch in to activate.

    Sandstream? Deals 6.25% damage per turn to all Pokemon that are not Rock, Ground, or Steel type. Boosts SpDef of Rock types 50%; Activates the Abilities Sand Rush and Sand Force (also Sand Veil); lasts entire battle; cannot be removed except with weather; requires a teamslot; must switch in to activate.

    Snow Warning? Deals 6.25% damage each turn to all Pokemon that are not Ice type; Fixes Blizzards accuracy; Activates the Ice Body ability; lasts entire battle; cannot be removed except with weather; requires a teamslot; must switch in to activate.

    Note that for Drizzle, Drought, Sandstream, and Snow Warning I only listed effects you are likely to see in OU.


    TL;DR Weather cause the metagame to centralize in the same way that an Uber like Ho-Oh would if allowed in OU.


    EDIT: Sorry kd24. I meant to flesh it out before posting, but I was called away unexpectedly. I'm putting the rest of it in quote tags. It may take some time though.

    EDIT2: Quote tags with explanations and conclusion are up.
  13. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    thats a pretty shitty argument deglas. you're not expanding on why those attributes create a problem with weather. talk about why dry skin and rain dish is a big deal - which mons abuse it and why is it good

    talk about the water mons that abuse it more, talk about the specific steel types, talk about the mons that benefit from hurricane being 100%, etc etc

    your argument right now is it "does more" than hazards do. im completely lost by it - if you want to form an opinion, then form one and explain why things are broken in that respect

    and no i didnt go fully in detail in my response to ojama but now ive motivated myself to xD. expect a mega post on drizzles influence everywhere soon .__.
  14. BdB4445

    BdB4445

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    If it helps ... I think his point was that strategies like hazards and dual screens have their balance in the metagame. They provided great support for the team while they took effort to set up and maintain.

    Auto-weather, on the other hand, makes a massive influence at the small price of switching in. Of course there are "weather wars," but who thinks switching the same two pokemon in back and forth makes a healthy metagame?
  15. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    As a person who constantly builds weatherless teams, it is the ONLY team style that I need to constantly adjust as I climb up the ladder for the changing trends in weather domination as it is impossible to go from 1000 to 1900 with a static team, no matter how well built as you simply cannot account for every single weather threatening team...

    An example, after creating an alt, I often start powering through the lower tiers with mixed bags of offense/defence (haxorus, Landorus-T, latias, Keldeo, etc) and when I hit the 1700-1800 range I have to still seriously consider sun teams with more than 1 sun sweeper. Once I am in the 1900 range the very few sun teams left tend to have 1 sweeper at most as they are too busy being customized to deal with rain and sand and when I hit the 1900's I find it very viable to run some interesting pokemon, like Toxicroak without rain. Why do I do things like this? Because in lower tiers Toxicroak is a liability against sun where I end up doing the equivalent of 6v5 with Toxicroak as death fodder but in the higher ranked zones, that is not as important as I can still beat said sun teams with the 6v5 matchup + liability as they are less about power (Darm, Venu, Victini) and more about utility and keeping away rocks and politoed (etc). That same Toxicroak is an absolute blessing against rain and can often take out at least 1 or 2 pokemon barring excellent prediction and guesses from the opposing rain team, in the higher tiers it becomes INCREDIBLY important that you are able to deal with rain, more significant during the Tornadus-T era but it is still the fact for me now.

    Does anybody else share this experience? Meanwhile the few times I make a rain team I can climb from 1000 to 1900 rather easily with perhaps only minor adjustments.
  16. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    rain and sun, and even sand to an extent, are not better than weatherless teams for the reasons you think. you claim that they're better because they are easier to a) build, b) use, and c) win against teams that are disadvantaged by team matchup. the first two are correct: rain and sun teams are definitely easier to build and use than weatherless teams. however, the way you phrase the last of the three points makes me feel that you're not completely understanding my argument. let me be clear: against certain matchups, rain and sun essentially have automatic wins. against other matchups, it's not an auto-loss, either. rather, quite the opposite - because of their offensive nature as a team, even when disadvantaged by team matchup, rain and sun teams still have a chance at victory. the same absolutely cannot be said for weatherless teams. because weatherless teams lack that advantage of having weather over your opponent, their offensive prowess is greatly diluted. let's take weatherless v. sun, for example. your deo-d can't set up on xatu, your heatran (if you even have one) is getting trapped by dugtrio, and your team as a whole can't withstand the dual onslaught of venusaur plus volcarona. if it's weathless v. rain, the situation is the same, but it's now deo-gar failing to beat starmie or tentacruel, jirachi walling your latios, and keldeo cleaning up once your team has exhausted every offensive capability. and sure, if you run kingdra, your weatherless team is now better vs rain, except for that pesky ferrothorn...plus, by having to run a sub-optimal dragon like kingdra as opposed to something better like latios just to check rain, you're kind of proving my point.

    look at that last sentence real quick. you accept that, if rain and sun (specifically offense) are killing off other playstyles, then they are not "just fine". that's the entire crux of my argument against rain and sun. the advent of a new and more powerful rain/sun offense in bw2 has destroyed the viability of numerous playstyles. i'll list them all here: sun balance, sun stall, weatherless stall, non deo-d weatherless offense, hail anything, rain stall (to an extent). that's five or six playstyles right there that rain and sun have destroyed, and therefore, by your own reasoning, rain and sun are unhealthy for the metagame.

    ah, see, that's the point. a weatherless team has to literally choose, while teambuilding, to be weak to something. going into a battle, you know that if your opponent brings, say, sun offense, you will lose, and you accept that as a weatherless team user. but when you're using rain, for example, you know there are certain matchups you always win, and outside of those matchups, even if you are disadvantaged if your opponent brings, say, sand stall, you still have a fighting chance to succeed by executing good prediction, double switching, and maybe getting a little luck. for weatherless teams, that's hardly ever an option. either you win, or you lose. for that reason, because of weather teams, weatherless teams are actually the ones that are reliant on team matchup moreso than any other playstyle. the "strength" and "versatility" you cite here is knowing that because you have a specs kingdra and a reliable hazard setter on your team, you will beat rain teams 90% of the time. that same team, whatever it may be, is going to lose to sun 90% of the time as well, or maybe sand, or other weatherless teams with a certain combination of pokemon that they utilize. really, it's just a matter of picking your poison.
  17. Bluwing

    Bluwing

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    Weather is so dominant in OU it's not even fun I realy wanna build a successfull non-weather team, but it's quite hard as when choosng pokemon abilities and moves you have to consider opposing weather, so so basic strong moves like Surf and Fire Blast is quite risky to use due to facing the wrong weather you actually have a waste off an moveslot.

    So when people mostly think of a non-weather team they think hyper offense, and guys hyper offense can be hard, as there is so many weather abuser that hits so hard that you realy can't withstand it, also when im kinda forcing myself to use Scarf Latias to beat Modest Venusaur in Sun as im just so afraid to be weak to it, and Keldeo man that thing is so hard and is almost impossible to counter in Rain it's not even funny, anyway I actually think weatherless is quite an challenge and that OU is way to weather based.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    BKC stated multiple times how sand stall dominates Rain teams, and now you are arguing that rain teams actually do have a fighting chance against sand stall. Which one is it guys, i want to know so we can continue this discussion. BKC says that weather makes the games that involve sun an rain completely match-up dependant, while you say that offensive rain and sun teams can overcome the disadvantage of match-up, implying that the match-up deal is not so important. Basically you say that weather teams completely dominate some types of teams, while still having a realistic chance of winning against team types that have an advantage against them, while weatherless teams only have an advantage against certain team types, and not a sure win, while almost instantly losing against weather offense teams. I don't agree with this point of view, and regarding to your statement
    i have to remind you that weatherless offense teams are also offensive teams. Be it Deo-D HO, DragMag, or Dual Screens + 5 sweepers, all of those teams can get around bad match-ups due to their offensive nature, so offensive sun and rain teams are nothing special in that regard. A rain offense team choses to use Politoed as their support Pokemon, Deo-D teams chose to use Deo-D as their support Pokemon, and DS teams use dual screen set upers as their support Pokemon. I don't consider any of those kinds of support broken, as rain offense is nothing special whenever i play against it. Weatherless team can stand up to the power of weather teams because they either have their own form of heavy support (DS users, Deo-D, etc) or they have a more solid defensive core due to the ability to run one more Pokemon than rain and sun teams, as well as their ability to have better defensive synergy overall. Finally, i won't comment a lot on your examples about Sun or Rain against weatherless, as this will lead to an endless cycle of theorymon, but i just have to say that it is not as simple as you make it seem. Deo-D can set-up against Xatu with Skill Swap, Weavile can revenge kill any Chloro sweeper after SR + Spikes, and Volcarona dies after SR from Night Slash. Or if you don't want to use the gimmick called Skill Swamp, Weavile can trap and kill Xatu for you. This is how i got my reqs in the last suspect test and it worked just fine. Sun teams didn't trouble me at all.

    Oh and Kingdra is not a suboptimal dragon, and if you think it is, i can't help but think you either haven't used it or are very biased against it. How is Rain Dance Kingdra a suboptimal dragon when it fares so well against sun and rain offense, two of the biggest issues for weatherless HO teams?

    When did i say that it is ok if weather kills other playstyles? I said that weather alone is not killing any viable playstyle, and this is why weather is just fine. Also all of those playstyles you mentioned are still viable in my book, so we have to agree to disagree here. The only playstyle in general that is very hard to use is pure stall, and this is not only weather's fault. Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Kyurem-B, and Sheer Force Landorus are all main reasons to stall's decline as well.

    Once again, i am a weatherless team user, and sun teams were never an issue, because i built my team while having the sun threats in mind. Who would be so stupid to use a Deo-D weatherless offense team without a way to get past Xatu, and without a way to stop common sun sweepers? Every type of team has to chose to what it wants to be weak, not only weatherless teams. As shrang already mentioned, chosing to which and how many threats you will be weak to depends entirely on your teambuilding skills, as long as you use viable Pokemon and strategies. So to close this matter, in almost all of the games that i played with my last weatherless team (around 75 iirc), almost none of them was an insta-lose due to team match-up, as you seem to imply for weatherless vs sun offense or rain offense. I don't see weather as a problem, because it doesn't limit my options more than any other meta-shaping factor, and because i can create very succesful teams of various team-types. And i am not even a very good teambuilder, so i don't think that it is so hard for a player with an average level if skill in competitive Pokemon to overcome the difficulties imposed by weather.
  19. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    first off, please note that i am not bkc. while it is true that he and i share opinions on many issues, we have slightly differing viewpoints. what i'm emphasizing is that, when using a team that is neither rain nor sun, you will automatically lose certain games due to team matchup, and you will win some games due to team matchup as well. however, when using rain or sun, not only will you automatically win some games due to team matchup as well, but you will even have the ability to play your way out of matchup disadvantages and still clutch a win, which is a trait that non rain/sun teams lack.

    you missed the point i was trying to make and only quoted a small portion of my overarching argument. what i was actually saying is that weather offense teams, by their inherent nature, are able to overcome matchup disadvantages by constantly applying pressure while maintaining the weather advantage. key word there is "while", meaning both of these conditions must be in effect for weather offense teams to stand a chance in a disadvantaged matchup. since weatherless offense teams lack weather, they also lack one of the two conditions for success in disadvantageous team matchup scenarios, and therefore, winning is nearly impossible. you bring up an example here of you laddering for reqs with skill swap deo-d and weavile. first, i'd like to congratulate you on your success with such unusual and innovative sets. second, i'd like to emphasize what i stated earlier, that a) these innovative sets are part of what makes the game enjoyable, and i'm not detracting from their use at all, but also b), that when you use such different pokemon or sets that deviate from the standard, you are making a trade-off. your increased prowess against sun with xatu is coupled with a now greater disadvantage against rain balance and potentially sand offense as well. every change in teambuilding that deviates from the norm sacrifices an advantage against one playstyle for an advantage against another. that is the nature of teambuilding.

    if kingdra was not a suboptimal dragon, do you think it would have been left unbanned in dpp while latios was sent to the uber tier automatically? kingdra has lower base stats, a thinner movepool, and less versatility than latios, latias, and even salamence. there's a reason you see it used a whole lot less than the three pokemon i just mentioned. yes, i'm not going to deny that if you manage to get a rain dance up with kingdra and remove ferrothorn from play, it can be quite a dangerous pokemon. however, the trouble lies in actually setting up kingdra, who is notoriously frail in this highly offensive metagame, not to mention preventing your opponent from changing the weather on you mid-sweep. kingdra isn't bad, but it's not the best special or physical dragon out there by any means.

    first of all, you misinterpreted me once again. i was not claiming that you said the destruction of playstyles was a good thing; rather, i noted that you said the advent of rain and sun in bw2 did not destroy any playstyles, when in fact it destroyed five to six of them. additionally, whether a playstyle is viable in "your book" or not is irrelevant, i'd be interested to hear how many people in this thread feel that sun stall is still a prevalent and viable threat to the metagame, or maybe hail balance, or rain stall.

    you seem to continually ignore the point i've been emphasizing with every single post i've made in this thread: teambuilding emphasizes trade-offs. there is no perfect weatherless team, just like there is no perfect rain or sun team, but rain and sun teams minimize the amount of trade-offs necessary to be made during teambuilding, which makes them easier to build, easier to play with, and easier to win with. just because you're a good teambuilder and you faced some rotten opponents on the ladder doesn't mean that weatherless teams are suddenly perfect against all playstyles and never suffer a team matchup loss. again, it's all about trade-offs. your weatherless team might be, for example, good against rain teams, fair against sand teams, and bad against sun teams, or perhaps good against sun teams, fair against rain teams, and bad against sand teams. whatever it may be, i'm going to continue to emphasize that weatherless offense is more dependent on team matchup than any other playstyle in the bw2 metagame until you understand my point.
  20. Pikachuu

    Pikachuu

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    Drizzle is overrated imo everyone is just so overprepared for it that I find it more difficult to win using a rain team than using a sand team or even sun team. Far far from broken. I'm sure people will agree with me.
  21. FallenFoliage

    FallenFoliage

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    I don't think Politoed usage is a viable argument. Of course Scizor usage is higher (Its found on all sorts of teams, including but not limited to all the weather teams.) On that note, the deviations aren't exact, as you only need Politoed to make a rain team, but Scizor doesn't exactly form a ''Scizor Team''.

    You also have to keep in mind Politoed always is paired up with another five pokemon that will always count in the statistics (If you're following our rules and not using six Politoeds). The partners that abuse of Drizzle are also varied, so this even further screws the deviations to the equation which you are accounting your argument for. In fact, I'd say even thought not at the top, Politoed usage is quite high!

    Just hoping to discard that misinterpreted logic.
  22. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

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    Amen to that. Hell I even won more with hail and even weatherless stall teams than I ever did with rain.
  23. BdB4445

    BdB4445

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    Well there you have it!

    Drizzle is NOT broken.
  24. Kietharr

    Kietharr

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    Honestly I'd be for banning all auto weather, even sandstorm and hail. I feel like auto-weather was limited for a very good reason when it was first introduced. Hell, remember how dominant Tyranitar/Hippowdon+Chomp was in early gen4? And now you have things far, far scarier than that running around getting auto weather boosts. And actually, auto sand pretty much completely killed conventional rain/sun teams since it was so easy to get sand up and so hard to get the other weathers up. I feel it was definitely a bad design choice on Nintendo's part to have auto weather outside of box legendaries.

    Of course it's easily possible to run non-weather teams, but the big problem is countering them without weather of your own. I mean, it can be done, but you have to build your team around doing it. And then you have to worry about sun teams too, and to a lesser extent sand and hail. It's almost the age old "why not use X pokemon?" argument. Well, because Y pokemon does everything better. The same can be said of using your own weather to counter enemy weather, you can counter a rain team without sun, but why in god's name would you? The only way to actually clear enemy auto weather is through use of your own weather, and if you have to use the move to summon it, that's a turn you've surrendered to the enemy, which he will likely use to summon his auto weather back.

    I think it could possibly be balanced if Airlock/Clear Sky removed weather when entering play and more useful pokemon had them, but as of right now, the game I'm trying to play again has turned into a game of ring around the rosie between Ninetails and Politoed, I'm only playing lower tiers until something comes about to upset the balance of power there.
  25. MeteorMiss

    MeteorMiss

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    You're misunderstanding my argument. Regardless of Scizor or pokemon that are above it, this new January ladder takes into account player ranking when it calculates usage stats. The fact that less than 1/4 of players use Politoed brings into question how "broken" and "overcentralizing" Drizzle is.
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