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Avoidance Is The Best Defense [Peaked #820]

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Mamo.Pert, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Hello Smogon!!
    After a lot of frustration from being stuck at the middle of the ladder, I started building a new team from scratch and I wanted this to be different from the common volt-turning teams and the new Gen V infected Hyper Offense or Set Up teams. Clearly I started building a Stall Team.... And Guess what, I got in Top 1000 with this simply great Team on Smogon Ladder..
    I worked a lot on this, keeping all the neccessary things for making a Stall team, reading Other RMTs and finally came with a successful team.

    EDIT : After the advises given, I tried some changes on my team and tested it, and those changes helped my rank more on the ladder, So I decided to make those changes permanent. I have done all the changes with RED.

    Team Building
    Show Hide
    1. I started with weather in my stall team and so I chose the physical wall Hippodown for this purpose.
    [​IMG]
    2. Stall teams require at least 2 entry hazards to be effective, so I chose Ferro and Sp. Def Heatran for this purpose, both laying Spikes, And SR.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    3. Now I needed to Block the incoming Spins, and at the same time spin the hazards laid at my side. Jellicent was the best pokemon for the first purpose, and after thinking a lot, I chose Tentacruel for the second purpose over Forretress.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    4. Now after everything was intact, I needed a Shuffler and a pokemon that is capable of covering the remaining weakness of my team. Immediately Dragonite struck my mind.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    5. But then I noticed, Dragonite doesnt love sandstorm, and that my team was weak to Landorus and Gliscor. Also my team had a major flaw against fighting type pokemons. So after a lot of considering, testing and thinking, I replaced my Hippodown With Sigilyph, and which really made my team more strong.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    6. Terrakion Began to pose a great threat to my team overall, so I decided to change Sigilyph For Gliscor. It worked well on my team, so I decided to make the change permanent.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Introduction


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Basically, this team works on team synergy, and stalling by status and thus covering nearly the whole of metagame. This team also deals with the weathers, and the pokemon that try to abuse them. Ferro, Heatran And Tentacruel all lays Diff. status so that at each turn someone is there laying something. Jellicent Blocks the valuable hazards to be spun and provides a good answer to other stall teams. Gliscor acts as a strong physical wall in my team and manages threat like Terrakion with ease. Dragonite acts as A Tank and a late game staller cum sweeper.
    I tested this team and it really worked wonder. I found few major threats to this team, otherwise all that was really needed to win after this was skill to play and the biggest thing of Pokemon Metagame : - LUCK !!!!!!
    I would sincerely Like you to rate my team and tell me its weakness (if any), any possible changes I should make and how my team is overall. I wont mind Luvdisc at all :P After all I would be glad to have some after so much of trying to build a good team for months (Finally reached 883 Rank on Smogon Ladder, my best rank so far)... As a Proof :
    Show Hide
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    Getting Closer​


    [​IMG]
    Heatran
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 142 SDef / 120 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Stealth Rock
    - Protect
    - Roar

    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Ground - Dragonite, Gliscor
    Water - Dragonite, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel
    Fight - Dragonite, Gliscor, Jellicent, Tentacruel

    On Karpman's suggestions I am running Roar over Earth Power. Protect is a lot crucial to me, and I am not going to change it anyway..Roar is great on Stall teams and for the residual damage.
    I run Earth Power over Roar because Heatran With only Lava Plume is easy to corner, and besides Earth Power has really helped me in killing some slow water switch ins after taking entry damage. Also, since Heatran is my main answer to sun teams, EP is essential here.
    The main job of heatran is to kill ferro, skarm, forretress and magnezone. For scizor, I have my entire team to deal with. Thats why the EV spread ensure him to outspeed modest magnezones (timid magnezones are too weak to possibly damage my heatran). Also I never use my Heatran against opposing heatran (unless they are paralyzed by Ferro) because I am always unsure whose Earth Power will go first, and I dont want to kill my heatran for simply nothing. So outspeeding Heatran is also not my concern. This EV spread makes him a real tank to Sp. Attacks. Good answer to opposing Jirachi and Celebi. It can also take Focus blast from gengar and pair it with my leftovers + protect I have always managed to 2HKO Gengar suucessfully.
    Now comes synergy. Ferro effectively lure fire type attacks. This gives Heatran either a Free turn for SR or it simply powers up Lava Plume for damaging the next switch in before retreating. Protect scouting EQ And Gliscor Flying Type comes in handy a majority of time, as do Lati@s Surfs and Draco Meteors with Jellicent. Gliscor is immune to Ground Attacks and resists Fighting attacks like hell. Heatran tanks special HP Ice for Gliscor.

    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip

    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Fire - Dragonite, Jellicent, Heatran, Tentacruel
    Fight - Dragonite, Gliscor, Jellicent, Tentacruel
    The first quetion that pops is Why to run Thunder Wave when I have toxic spikes and lava plume for 2 status already. The reason is that all the common switch ins to Ferro are immune to toxic spikes (Heatran, Magnezone, Scizor, Fire Punch Dragonite) and most of them dont mind burns either (excluding Scizor). But By paralyzing them on their switch, I can deal with them with so ease.. My heatran can smash other heatran and magnezone by Earth power without fearing to get KO'ed myself as I always move first than them. Since half of the Ferro switch ins generally use it as a setup fodder, this move solves that issue completely (excluding Reuniclus). Leech Seeds work the same as TW, but it generally causes more frustration on paralyzed foes due to severe hax. A good thing to pass on to my Dragontie.
    Another thing is having Gyro Ball over a status move or Power Whip. I dont know which pokemon take more damage from Gyro Ball but not from Power Whip... Ice types are rare in OU and ofc Abomasnow and Kyurem Have HP Fire and speed To roast me before I can Gyro-Ko them. So I think this moveset is fine from all prosepects.
    EV spread too is the basic one, magnimizing its overall def. Good answer to All Water Pokemons, Rotom-W (excluding Trick), Hippodowns and all other grass type and choiced Landorus and Electric Pokemons like Jolteon.
    As part as synergy is concerned, it completes the FerroCent strategy and works good deal with Heatran.

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor
    @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt


    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Ice - Jellicent, Heatran, Tentacruel
    Water - Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Jellicent, Dragonite

    Gliscor Replaced Sigilyph and is now doing a splendid job. The set I have chosen is so perfectly well to use on stall teams, that half of the players start banging their keyboard after knowing their pokemon have lost their PPs. Its main job is to act as status absorber, Physical wall and a potential PP staller. As always, It has an excellent synergy with my Tentacruel. It also acts as a Fighting Buffer keeping Terrakion at bay, A pokemon who was a potential threat to my team.
    But for the best part, Ferrothorn's And Dragonite's TW is what makes this set godly. After a pokemon is paralyzed, it always goes slower than Gliscor, which means Gliscor can use Subs + Protect with impunity stalling Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, Choice Lati@s Surf, Porygon (and family)'s Ice Beam, Starmie Surf/Hydro, Choice Politoed Hydro Pump and what else. Taunt is for Bulk Up Breloom, SD Gliscor, SD Scizor, Subs Terrakion, Skarmory and Forretress.


    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Knock Off

    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Ground - Dragonite, Gliscor
    Electric - Ferrothorn
    Psychic - Heatran, Ferrothorn

    The best Spinner I have. As long as he is alive, I really never mind Entry Hazards. Good Support with Toxic Spikes, Spinning, and the best Knock Off. Knock Off's big deal is it shows opponent item along with removing them permanently for the rest of the game. This way I know which set the pokemon is using. This little piece of information can really turn the tables around during late game. It also a pretty good thing against Gastrodon and other stall pokemons, and Brelooms who think switching in Tenta is a safe option. Chansey and All other Eviolite users are also screwed due to this (other Being Dusclops, and Porygon2). With Leftovers gone, and scald's Burn burning, Things go down pretty quickly.
    Many say that Tenta is overshadowed because of Jelli. But hey, Jelli cant spin ofc, and it is weak to grass and lacks Knock Off. Besides Tenta has rain Dish + immuntiy to toxic which Jellicent seriously lacks. In terms of synergy, Gliscor and Tenta seriously makes a great combo. Other than Psychic, both resist each other weakness and provides a good coverage since Gliscor really needs Toxic support for effectively stalling.


    [​IMG]
    Jellicent
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt


    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Grass - Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Sigilyph
    Ghost - Ferrothorn, Heatran
    Dark - Ferrothorn, Heatran
    Electric - Ferrothorn

    On Silent Storm suggestion replacing Shadow Ball with Will~O~Wisp.
    The best spinner out there as everyone knows. Only one thing I will mention here - Shadow Ball over Will~O~Wisp. Thing is I dont need any immediate burn on any pokemon. Ferro is there for Haxorus, Scizor is too weak to do anything beside Pursuit (that too only 25%) and swords dance variants always lack Superpower, which means heatran can wall him and KO him all night long. Shadow ball is a Serious answer to opposing Jellicent (incase they win the speed tie) and Starmie, the only spinner which Jellicent hates due to Thunder Bolt. Its good against Espeon too. But the best use is against Calm mind Reuniclus(Calm mind set generally lacks Shadow Ball 95% time), a pokemon who otherwise is dangerous for my team. Otherwise Handles too many threats which You all know, so no need to mention.

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost


    Synergy
    Show Hide
    Dragon - Heatran, Ferrothorn
    Ice - Jellicent, Heatran, Tentacruel
    Rock - Ferrothorn

    Say hello to this mighty def beast. I mean he is so so amazing, that if I could, I would really marry him (lol, ofc its a joke :p but seriously man, He is the real MIGHTY DRAGON). After laying all the hazards, killing all the spinners and spreading all kinds of status (3 lol) to every opposing pokemon, Dragonite really send all the players to Pallet Town. Paralyzed and burned Pokemon are far too weak to penetrate the Subs + Multiscale defense my dragonite boast, while poisoned pokemon Dont really stand more than 2 turns. Paralysis especially make this set more threatening due to the hax and combine this with Dragon tail and Hazards damage, Its something which no other dragon or Skarmory's lame Whirlwind can do. It makes my team complete providing extra Synergy with my team members, and provides an answer to many sun teams, QD Volcarona (lacking HP Rock), Salamence, Jirachi, Lati@s etc etc.

    Aftermath
    As seen, this team covers majority of the OU metagame. But there is no team which is completely invincible.
    Reuniclus and Calm Mind Jirachi + Subs + Thunder in Rain are two another threats, because first is partially immune to status while the latter Subs is hard to break given the Calm Mind boost and superb typing in Rain and perfect Thunder coverage.
    But basically I need help against Brelooms and Gliscors, and Landorus If I can.

    This team otherwise work fine, in weathers too.
    In rain teams, Gliscor is there for toxicroak, Heatran walls Tornadus like Hell And Can burn Him with Lava Plume and then protect stall. For the majority Water pokemon, Ferro and Jellicent are always there, And Gliscor can deal with opposing Ferrothorn, in case Heatran fails to do so. Generally Sp. Rain Dragonites are seen on Rain Teams, and Heatran is a good answer to them. (Just Escape Jirachi!!)
    In sun teams, Gliscor EQ. Gliscor is a good answer to Venusaur lacking HP Ice. Dragonite walls majority of sun teams due to its terrific defenses, and Generally Sun Teams are weak to SR, and so Dragon Tail OHKOes nearly the entire team, while Jellicent deals with Donphan better.
    In Sand Teams, Ferro deals with Hippodown as it is immune to toxic, and can seed him to stop his Roar Menance from where Tentacruel can come in and while tanking atleast 1 EQ, 2HKO Hippo with scald. Tyranitar is better burnt than paralyzed. Anyway Gliscor is a good answer to him, and protect helps scouting Ice Beams. Terrakion is also managed by Jelli and Gliscor. The only threat is Landorus, especially the Life Orb one.
    Never seen any hail teams on Smogon Server except one or two where everything was quite easy. Heatran seriously walls Glaceon and Lava Plume always KO her.

    So as stated, there are more or less, 3-4 threats to this team but if played well, those too can be eliminated..
    So this is this. I hope you guys liked my team. I really had worked hard building this. I appreciate all sort of constructive comments. Just tell me if you find some serious flaw in my team and if in any way I can fix that and also if there is some better chance to deal with the aforementioned threats. Thanks Guys for taking time rating my team :) And yea don't hesitate in Luvdiscing This Team if you liked it... ;P

    And Yea, here is the importable code if you like to test this team yourself (I have reached 883 rank on smogon ladder with this, Just wish that I make up to Top 100, my true dream really..):
    Show Hide
    Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt

    Tentacruel (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Knock Off

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Taunt

    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 200 SDef / 60 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Stealth Rock
    - Protect
    - Roar
  2. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Threat List

    Reserved For Threat List
  3. XcRunner

    XcRunner

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    149
    I must say that this is one of the best stall teams that I've seen in a while. The only flaw that I've seen is what you've already stated in your conclusion, which would be your rather large SD Terrakion weakness, and just rock moves in general. A defensive Breloom could be an option for taking these pokes out, but I'm not sure what you would put it in for.
    The sub-seed set on Smogon could be a good set and just replace the moves with ones that fit you better, but Breloom also adds some more offensive power to the team while having good synergy with the rest of the team.
    Here's the set.
    Breloom@toxic orb
    Adamant
    -Spore
    -Substitute
    -Leech Seed/Seed Bomb/Bullet Seed (for sub'ed threats)
    -Drain Punch/Focus Punch/Mach Punch (Drain Punch probably best for longevity)
    236 hp/56 att/216 def

    Another possibility would be to run a Gliscor in place of Sigilyph to take Terrakion attacks with ease and threaten back. Just typical spread of 252 hp/36 def/220 spe with Impish nature to outrun Lucario and Toxicroak while keeping defensive at the same time.

    Hope this helped!
  4. Solar Thunder

    Solar Thunder

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    It looks like Terrakion Rock Gem / Life Orb can cause a lot of troubles to this team. The best thing for it is Jellicent, but he can't safely switch in.
    I think that a Starmie could help, since he can easily revenge kill and he can also Rapid Spin.
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 12 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Thunderbolt
    - Recover
    As XcRunner said, you could also try a Gliscor, the defensive one with Substitute + Toxic + Protect would help a lot for your stall.
    Great team!
  5. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    @Solar Thunder
    Tyranitar is way too common in OU today, and Starmie is far too frail to withstand a Pursuit from him while at the same time it cant even OHKO Tyranitar back. This means my spinner wont be able to stick around longer and since my stall team key element is team synergy, Entry hazards can severely limit my stalling capabilities.

    @XcRunner
    Breloom is a good option, as it resists Rock, Electric, Ground (blends in with the synergy), and is immune to status. But as you said, the problem is which slot should he acquire. Obvious one is Sigilyph. But then SD Gliscor and Subs. Gliscor can have a laugh at my team with only Jellicent being capable of doing something. Infact at +2, EQ deals a lot of damage to Jellicent. Dragonite strategies also fail against Gliscor, and Dragon Tail's effect is blocked by Subs. Right now, Sigilyph Cosmic Powers can tank the weak Ice Fang and OHKO it with Stored Power.
    But still Its a good idea, and I will def. try it and see if there is any Improvement.

    Regarding Gliscor in place of my Sigilyph, I knew from the start that switching Gliscor would be a better option as it possess nearly the same qualities as Sigilyph, and privdes a good answer to Terrakion but I did not want the *4 weakness to ice. Sigilyph at +1 Cosmic takes only 25% damage from Landorus HP Ice.
  6. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    I was editing my above post, but due to slow connection it got deleted somehow.. weird!!
    Anyway I have placed Gliscor as my third pokemon and currently peaking #820 (great deal for me) because of it..
    Anyway, I would like to hear comments on my team, so please take some time to do so....
  7. The Silent Storm

    The Silent Storm

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    99
    Nice to see Stall back in action =)
    I suggest you to keep up Toxic on Gliscor, it is very useful
    The only weakness I can find is lolddscrafty, but solutions to him might cause too much change for your team.
    But since I'm here, might I suggest you 160 speed evs on Heatran? This way you're able to surpass max speed adamant sdzor, who can be problematic if Jellicent is dead/weakned enough
    Oh also, you may want to consider wow>shadow ball on Jellicent, since scald burn isn't very reliable
    Very nice team, really, good luck with your top 100 mission
  8. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    I was thinking of putting Hydro Pump over scald to solve my Gliscor Problem as it has enough power to KO Gliscor. With Hydro Pump, I have to necessarily run Will-O-Wisp over shadow ball. But this makes my team vulnerable to Espeon, CM Reuniclus (Dragonite fails due to dragon tail low priority and +1 psychic will seriously put a big dent, if not KO, even with multiscale). Also I will be powerless against Gastrodon and Opposing faster Jellicent.
    I wish to run Hydro + WoW but cant find a way to deal with these problems. But I will give it a try..
    I never use my Heatran for scizor. SD variants lack Superpower 80% of the time. So Jellicent and Tentacruel and even Heatran can see to that. Choiced hetrans are better dealt by Gliscor, Tenta and Jelli and They have never ever bothered me with that. Thing is I need more and more bulk in my Heatran.. and guess what, normal Sp. def. heatran cant OHKO my heatran due to my extra bulk, and gets KO by mine due to their less investment in sp. bulk. Specially after finding this great thing, I am thinking of putting some EVs from speed into Sp. Attk. to KO more Def. Heatrans and The big menance Bulk Up Breloom.. Need suggestions for that...

    Regarding putting toxic on Gliscor, well just because of this move my rank dropped back to 1300.. Smogon is filled with SD Gliscor and Bulk Up Breloom, and they use my Gliscor as a setup fodder.. Toxic has not helped me a bit since.. Same is with protect on Tentacruel... thinking of Knock Off and Liquid Oze (for Drain Punch on Scrafty, Breloom and Conkeldurr)
  9. The Silent Storm

    The Silent Storm

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    99
    Meh
    ice Fang doesn't hit that hard the pokemons you mentioned, but if you think it might help you okay
    As for Scizor, you're wrong, Superpower is used 3 out of 4 time on Scizor, and Life Orb is the second most used item based to the March Usage (http://po.smogon.com/Stats/2012-03/Movesets/Movesets%20Standard%20OU.txt)
    You don't actually need Shadow Ball to take down Gastrodon, just tauting him is enough to stop him, Reuniclus is on the same boat, Shadow Ball after a Calm mind won't kill him (it's at best a 4hko, excluding Leftovers, by the way) but you can simply taunt him and wear it down with a combination of Dragonite and Jellicent
    If you're scared about opposing Jellicent that is another fact, you can simply give him more speed evs to surpass them, that's because Shadow Ball won't be that strong against them (36.22 - 43.17%) so in the case you find a more fast Jellicent he can taunt you and then recover the damage (don't forget the additional leftovers bonus) and after that burn you and wear you down.
    Btw, Hydro Pump doesn't help you at all against Gliscor, or rather, substitute version who can simply stall your 8 pp, even worse if you face sdacrobatics gliscor who abuse Sand Veil and Hydro Pump 80's accuracy.
    Anyway, since you don't care about sdscizor with superpower, then replace the speed with satk
    There is a downside, however to ohko surely Breloom with sr support you need to switch Calm with Modest and Lava Plume with Flamethrower
    Show Hide
    Heatran (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SAtk / 142 SDef / 60 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Protect




    With this you can kill Breloom istantly with sr support (95.6% - 112.5%)

  10. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    I think Will o Wisp seems a nice idea.. I am trying it and getting positive results.
    Regarding sdacrobatics gliscor, smart play generally eliminates this threat. This set is very easy to know because it doesnt acquire toxic status the moment he comes in. This makes him the next target for a Burn (especially Jelli Equipped with WoW) after which my entire team starts handling him...

    The big deal is about SD Gliscor, and I think this threat can only be eliminated by making some serious pokemon changes. Gliscor outspeed Tentacruel and Heatran and OHKO them with EQ. Ice Fangs KO My Gliscor and Dragonite (With Multiscale; against +2). Ferro and Jellicent, both are 2HKO by EQ. The only possible way I see is by replacing Gliscor with Bronzong or Weezing. Bronzong Gyro ball will deal with Terrakion, and HP Ice will OHKO Gliscor and Landorus. The only problem arises with Breloom, which then completely mocks my team. Weezing can handle Breloom and Terrakion with impudence but has a Psychic Weakness. Dont know if Weezing will be a good answer to Gliscor too..??

    Heatran cant really sacrifice the bulk.. So I think I will have to go another way for Breloom (maybe any of one mentioned abv.). And till now I am running only Toxic over Gliscor.. I have not made any changes there..

    And yea, Thanks for the Help !! ^_^ It was valuable to me...
  11. VN.

    VN. out here manuevering
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    950
    Hey man, nice team you have here.

    Anyways, I can definitely see the threat of CM Reuniclus. The fact that Jellicent can beat it with Taunt and Shadow Ball is a myth, given that Reuniclus only needs to get to +1 to beat Jellicent, which it can do fairly easily. At that point, Shadow Ball is doing 27.59% - 32.55%, while +1 Psychic is doing 41.83% - 49.75%. Since Reuniclus is doing so much [not to mention it runs a risk of a special defense drop each time it's used]. This will eventually force Jellicent to Recover, which often opens up an oppurtunity for Reuniclus to Calm Mind again and there's hardly a chance for Jellicent to beat a +2 Reuniclus without the help of crits. Overall, Jellicent is hardly a counter to Reuniclus if it's at +1, which isn't very hard to attain for Reuniclus. Anyways, I think you can clean up your Reuniclus problem by replacing Dragonite with a CM+Roar Latias. CM+Roar Latias makes excellent use of hazards by roaring its common switchins [Scizor and Tyranitar] back into Spikes and SR on a predicted switch, and watch them die from all the residual damage. CM+Roar Latias also boasts the unique characteristic of being able to beat nearly every Calm Minder in the game, Reuniclus being no exception. You essentially boost with them, and once you get to +4 or +5 or so, then you Roar them out and sweep, although if there's anything really stopping you from sweeping, then it's best to make an attempt to remove it beforehand.

    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roost
    - Roar




    I think you can fix your problems with Bulk Up Breloom by trying out standard Defensive Gliscor over the SubToxic one that you're running now. Defensive Gliscor provides a solid Physical wall for the team and a solid means of beating Gliscor and many other threats, such as Terrakion and Dragons, with Ice Fang, although you can certainly run Aerial Ace if you really want to beat Breloom. SubToxic Gliscor is a good Pokemon, but having a dedicated Physical wall can give you a catchall for most Physical threats if the rest of your team has taken a lot of damage and Defensive Gliscor provides just that. Finally, some smaller changes I'd like to advocate would be Roar over Protect on Heatran and Gyro Ball over Thunder Wave on Ferrothorn. Roar, combined with Spikes gives Heatran the ability to Phaze out SubCM Rachi, sans insane hax, but you'll usually be able to Roar it away. SubCM Jirachi rarely carries Wish, and those that do often lose to you anyways since they lack Protect, so Spikes + any type of Lava Plume or Earth Power will often be all you need to wear down and ultimately take out Jirachi. I think Gyro Ball on Ferrothorn would make a good fit over Thunder Wave, mainly because it allows you to do massive amounts of damage to Pokemon like Haxorus or Latios that resist Power Whip, but also need to be taken out quickly ; it's also great for nailing strong special attackers such as Tornadus or Alakazam that either try and come in on a predicted Spikes or a double switch and deal heavy damage to them so that they are hardly a threat to your team anymore.

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Protect
    - Ice Fang / Aerial Ace
    - Taunt / Toxic


    Aerial Ace isn't really standard or recommended, but if you're still having Breloom problems, then I'd definitely try it out, it may work well.

    Change Summary:

    Heatran:
    Protect-> Roar

    Ferrothorn:
    Thunder Wave-> Gyro Ball


  12. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Thanks Karpman for the suggestions.

    Replacing Dragonite for Latias wont be a nice option, since then Scarfed Salamence will have a huge problem for my team. Dragonite is capable of taking down every Salamence version. A paralyzed Haxorus, Hydregion, Lati@s are easily dwelt with Him (And paralyzing them isnt difficult, since haxorus has a tendency to switch in Ferrothorn where it falls prey to TW). In sun teams, Dragonite completely walls Volcarona, but Latias wont be so efficient in doing so as +1 Bug Buzz will deal a lot of damage. Dragonite is a answer to many potential threats to my team and replacing him might introduce newer threats.

    Regarding Gliscor, I will definitely try this, as It might be a good answer to breloom (with Aerial Ace). ^^

    Heatran Protect do one major thing, and that this watching out for trick. Stall teams never like being choiced and the only pokemon I have capable of being tricked without ruining much of its purpose is Heatran. Ferro is a good answer to Rotom-W, but what if he uses Trick?? Ferro will be screwed up. So I generally start with my heatran after watching the Team Preview against Volt Turns. It also assist me against U Turn Landorus, who think I will switch fearing EQ. Sub CM Jirachi is bad for my team, and I know that, but switching protect will really end Heatran's Use.

    And Ferro 's TW has saved me like 90% of times. Ferro generally causes opponent to switch, and Heatran dont mind Power Whips, but do mind TW because then he loose to my own Heatran. Paralyzed Scizor also fails before Heatran, and the best thing, TW helps dragonite late game. So here, I am damn sure TW >> Gyro Ball.
  13. Nubagator

    Nubagator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    168
    Honestly bro, I feel you should really take Karpman's suggestions. at this point in time Reuniclus can 6-0 you from turn 1, unless you PP stall it out with Dnite, and that is really not a very reliable check. Latias also allows you to beat Cm virizion, another threat that at this point in time can take on most of your team single handedly. you mention scarf mence being problematic without Dnite, but Dnite essentially needs multiscale to be active to take an outrage anyway. Additionally while Dnite may handle Volcarona now a simple moveset change on heatran could make it an equally effective check.
    Obviously it's your team, and you don't have to take any suggestions, but I implore you to at least try out latias and an altered tran for a few games.
  14. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    I ran Roar over Protect on Heatran, but it gave me bad results, so I instead try Roar Over Earth Power, and yes that gave really awesome results, especially against Rotom-W and Gastrodon, and Earth Power do less damage anyway than 3 layers of spikes. Chandelure is rare in OU, and opposing Heatran can be dealt with Dragonite and Jellicent. Sun Heatran can be problematic to my team, but I think all other Fire types used in Sun OU are mainly Ninetales and Volcarona and SR + Roar screw them both.


    I got a way against SD Scizor, and Bulk Up Breloom too by simply putting taunt over Toxic on Gliscor. BU Breloom lacks investment in Attk. and Def. and once taunted, it is less scary to handle. Skarmory and forretress also fail to lay entry hazards due to this. So all in all it was a good option. Thanks to Karpman for the Gliscor set which eventually gave me this better idea while I was testing it.
    Replaced Scald with Surf, and Shadow ball with W~o~W, the only problem I see is against Espeon, especially the CM which can neither be taunted, nor shuffled or stalled.

    Replacing Dragonite with Latias, gave me awful results, especially against Volt Turn teams, because Rotom-W stabs OHKO 4 pokemon and Scizor cover remaining 2 pokemon. Tyranitar Pursuit also OHKO my Latias, and Tyranitar is 10 times common in OU than CM Threats. By having Latias, I am having more threats introduced than being eliminated, so I dont think this change would help me any way.

    Anyway Thanks for the Great Help ^_^....
  15. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Made the necessary changes in the my main team description..
  16. Dave OverControl

    Dave OverControl

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Crazy Gliscor's Spread O.o
  17. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Oh Yeah!! I forgot to fix that correction...
    Anyway, I would like few more comments on my team and any changes which I can make...
  18. Conduit

    Conduit

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    Hey Mamo.Pert, this team is really well thought out and similar to a team I made in the past, it is rather eerie.
    I see only three small problems.

    Gliscor- Okay, the Ev spread that you use for Gliscor isn't bad, but I think that there are better options.
    Try this out: 121 Hp, 236 Def, 154 Speed. This spread allows you to have a quick and bulky Gliscor that is useful to be able to Taunt even before opposing Gliscor and Dragonite, which do pose some threats to the team.

    Jellicent- Once again, only an Ev problem. I think it would help your team to make Jelli more Specially Defensive and have enough speed evs to outspeed Skarmory. 164 Hp/252 Sdef/88 Speed

    Dragonite- Finally, I think as a final slot it would really help if you had a Dragonite sweeper to bring in after hazards are placed to easily sweep a team. This set is viable:
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    4 Hp/252Atk/252Spd
    Nature: Adamant/Jolly
    -Dragon Dance
    -Outrage
    -Fire Punch
    -Extreme Speed
    Hope I helped!
  19. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    Thanks for the suggestions. I will try Gliscor and Jellicent, but dont you think that putting EVs from Def. into Sp. Def. will make it more vulnerable to Scizor's U Turn and Pursuit?
  20. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    Apart from stuff which has already been mentioned, Expert Belt Landorus with Sand support beats pretty much the entire team. You can work around it for a while with good prediction but any good player should win easily. Tyranitar with Crunch, Ice Beam, and Superpower also should break this team without too much trouble.

    That said its hard to say what to fix, since pure stall this gen is blatantly impossible. You could try running Hitmontop / Donphan in place of Tentacruel, it will leave you without Toxic Spikes but Dragonite and Ferro are both already dishing out paralysis and that looks like the more useful status. Also, most of your team is immune to Toxic Spikes so being unable to absorb them on entry won't hurt too much.

    Hope this suggestion helps, nice team.
  21. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2011
    Messages:
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    Hey, I got the request sorry for being late :o

    CM Reuniclus and SubCM Jirachi are your biggest threats at the momment. Dragonite can take on Reuniclus, but it will eventually fall to SpD drops or crits (you cam use Dragon Tail, but Reuniclus can easily switch in and start setting up again). SubCM Jirachi also poses a huge threat to your team; your only switch-in, Ferrothorn, is complete set up bait and Heatran won't even be able to breat the sub if Rachi is at +2 and it's raining. From there Jirachi can sweep your team with Water Pulse and Thunder. Using a Specially Defensive Celebi over Heatran would patch up these weaknesses. SpD Celebi resists all of the common attacks of both CM Reuniclus and SubCM Jirachi, while Perish Song prevents them from setting up (possibly eliminating them). Celebi also gives Ferrothorn some backup versus opposing rain teams. You lose a general check to sun teams in Heatran, but Dragonite and Tenatacruel can wall most sun teams.

    The change of Celebi > Heatran leaves your team without Stealth Rock (I know Celebi has access to them, but all 4 moves are needed on SpD Celebi) so I suggest putting Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn over Thunder Wave. Dragonite provides more than enough paralysis support; you listed Heatran, Magnezone, Scizor, and Dragonite as stuff Ferro paras, but all of these commonly switch into Dragonite, meaning you can still paralyze them (barring Dragonite of course, but Gliscor can handle Dnite even if it isn't paralyzed). You may be asking how does Gliscor handle Dragonite? Well now I suggest using Ice Fang over Taunt on Gliscor to KO Dragons. You dont really need Taunt on Gliscor as Jellicent has Taunt, and if you're worried about Conkeldurr / Breloom setting up on you, simply phaze them out with Dragonite or Celebi.

    Heatran's main role was eliminating Steel-types, but they shouldn't be a problem as you have a spinner, a Taunter and HP Fire Celebi, along with my next proposed change which is using Fire Blast on Dragonite over Substitute. Fire Blast KOs Steel-types, preventing them from setting up hazards, but it also notably KOs Breloom, who is a threat to your team (Bulk Up varitants can beat Gliscor and Celebi can't do much in return). If you decide to use Fire Blast, go with an EV spread of 248 HP / 80 SpA / 180 SpD on Dragonite. This spread allows Dragonite to OHKO all Skarmory variants while still maintaining your special bulk. 248 HP EVs ensure 5 SR switch ins as opposed to 4.

    I think you could use a Specially Defensive Jellicent over your current set. Gliscor, Tentacruel Ferrothorn and even Celebi are more than enough to hande physical threats, and the extra special bulk enables Jellicent to completely prevent Starmie from Rapid Spinning awayd hazards, which are crucial to a win. Jellicent should also be using Scald over Surf, as Surf nets no notable KO, while Scald's burn rate is always appreciated (especially now that Jellicent is Specially defenisive).

    Celebi | Natural Cure | Leftovers
    Calm | 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
    Giga Drain | Hidden Power Fire | Recover | Perish Song


    Gl with the team and I hope this helps!
  22. Mamo.Pert

    Mamo.Pert

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Messages:
    31
    I have tried all the spinners. Tentacruel is the last one to fit in this slot. I personally didn't want him, because Rotom-W is one of the top 10 pokemons used, and Tenta just made this more worse by getting a Electric weakness.
    But still, he does his job since he is not a setup fodder and beside, Knock Off is getting a lot better the more I play and get exp.
    But as said, Toxic spikes are useless because 65% pokemons used nowadays are immune to it. So should I consider Toxic over it? It will surely make Gastrodon, Jellicent and Landorus life hell, all 3 being the common switch ins to Tenta???


    I will try Celebi. I have used it a lot before and know how to play with it, so I will definitely give it a try. More have suggested Sp. Def. Jelli, so I am gonna try that too. But yeah, will a Sp. Def. Jelli handle +1 SS cloyester? Tenta has only 30% chance to handle and Ferro has only 85% chance to handle it.
    Also, will Jellicent check Rain Tornadus like Heatran did? Celebi will get a pure KO, I know that. And will Celebi's HP Fire KO Skarmory without getting a KO with Brave Bird?
    Really Changing even a single pokemon make things tough and you have to reconsider things again. Thats why I am always scared of it :(

    Ferro cant run SR, Spikes and Leech seed altogether due to move set restrictions. So I think I will forgo Leech Seed for SR. I will also revert to the old Ice Fang but Jellicent has neither speed nor courage to taunt Breloom. and I will test Fire Blast too, but subs is what made this Dragonite set godly. And yeah, which nature on Dragonite since It runs Dragon Tail also??? . Anyway thanks for the rate.. Great Help ^^

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