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B&W Research Thread

Discussion in 'BW Competitive Discussion' started by ΩDonut, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. CPU

    CPU

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    Just in case it comes up later:

    Chip Away ignores any Defense/Special Defence changes of the opponent, positive or negative. The positive was already known, but I found out that it ignores Defense drops as well last night. I was using a Lickitung vs. one of Nimbasa's stadium trainers and first lowered its Defense with Screech, then used Chip Away. It did a really bad amount of damage, so I used Screech twice more and Chip Away still dealt the same paltry damage.

    Kind of unfortunate, but it's good to know. I'm assuming Sacred Sword works the same way.

    EDIT: Another little note--in Wild Pokémon Battles, Circle Throw and Dragon Tail, when used by the foe, don't seem to force your Pokémon out of battle. This may have been because my Pokémon were at a much higher level than the foe, though; I'll have to test it some more.
  2. poccil

    poccil
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    Analytic will raise the power of the bearer's attacks only if the bearer strikes absolute last, not just after the attacks' targets, as mentioned in Smogon's description of this Ability.

    My description for Analytic reads: "Power of attacks by bearer is multiplied by 1.3 if bearer strikes last this round. (Excludes Future Sight and Doom Desire. For the use of Pursuit as a Pokémon is about to switch, bearer "strikes last" if all other Pokémon have started to take an action this round.)"

    Also, Mummy can also affect opponents with Wonder Guard, as normal.
  3. Least100Seraphs

    Least100Seraphs

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    Legal users of Snarl.

    As the TM itself is still locked, the move can be passed only by breeding, either with the Zoroark itself, or Smeargle (they are both in the same Egg group).

    The following pokemon can learn Snarl through direct breeding with Zoroark or Smeargle as the father, or through a chain (chains listed). The order is the same you'd see when looking up the move on the Strategy dex.

    Absol, Arcanine, Druddigon (Zoroark -> Scraggy -> Druddigon), Electrike, Granbull, Growlithe, Herdier, Houndoom, Houndour, Krokorok, Krookodile, Larvitar (Zoroark -> Scraggy -> Druddigon -> Larvitar), Liepard, Luxio, Luxray, Manectric, Mightyena, Poochyena, Pupitar (Zoroark -> Scraggy -> Druddigon -> Larvitar), Purrloin, Shinx, Skuntank, Sneasel, Snubbull, Stoutland, Stunky, Tyranitar (Zoroark -> Scraggy -> Druddigon -> Larvitar), Weavile, Zoroark, Zorua.

    The following pokemon, who could normally learn the move via TM use, cannot obtain the move because it cannot be passed to them from Zoroark/Smeargle.
    Names in plain font cannot breed, names underlined cannot get the move as there is no chain to them from Zoroark, and names in italics cannot get the move as their first form cannot learn the move.

    Arceus, Bisharp, Carvanha, Crawdaunt, Darkrai, Drapion, Entei, Honchkrow, Mandibuzz, Mew, Murkrow, Nuzleaf, Pawniard, Raikou, Sableye, Sharpedo, Shiftry, Spiritomb, Suicune, Umbreon, Vullaby.
  4. poccil

    poccil
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    Let me clarify the interaction between Curse and Magic Guard, it seems to have been a mistake on my part:

    In generation 4 and 5:

    For a non-Ghost Pokemon, its stats will be changed whether or not it has Magic Guard.
    For a Ghost Pokemon, it will lay a curse on the Pokemon and will lose HP whether or not it has Magic Guard.
    If a non-Ghost Pokemon chooses Curse, it must choose itself whether or not it has Magic Guard.
    If a Ghost Pokemon chooses Curse, it must choose another Pokemon whether or not it has Magic Guard.
  5. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    IMPORTANT RESEARCH NEEDED

    Hi fellow researchers. Please place high priority on researching the following:

    - U-Turn and Payback interaction: When U-Turn goes first, does Payback do double damage on the incoming Pokemon?
    - Mold Breaker: DougJustDoug says that only the positive effects of abilities are negated. What counts as a positive effect?
    - Fly and Bounce: Need confirmation that Thunder is doubled against Bounce but not Fly, and Hurricane and Smack Down hits Fly but not Bounce, and any other differences

    Thanks guys!
  6. bluemon

    bluemon

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    i can test u turn and the bounce thingy but the mold breaker thing sounds complicated :( ill get to it ASAP.
  7. poccil

    poccil
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    For U-turn and Payback: In the situation you described, Payback will have only its usual power.

    I have the following sentence in my timing page, under Priority: "A Pokémon that became active after the beginning of a round is not considered to strike before or after any other Pokémon during that round." Since I describe Payback as "Power is doubled if user strikes after opponent this round.", Payback will thus have normal power since the new Pokemon is nowhere in the turn order.

    Thunder, Hurricane, and Smackdown work the same way whether the opponent is using Fly or Bounce:

    Thunder -- "Can hit opponent even if it is using Fly [or] Bounce" (power is not doubled)
    Hurricane -- "Can hit opponent even if it is using Fly [or] Bounce"
    Smack Down -- "Can hit opponent even if it is using Fly [or] Bounce .... If this attack is successful, the effect of Fly and Bounce ... ends for the opponent."

    All of the above was from my own in-game testing.
  8. Kefka

    Kefka

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    Mold Breaker doesn't negate abilities, it bypasses them when they would stop or hinder the user's move. (You can hit Magic Mirror Espeon with Thunder Wave or Heatran with Flamethrower, but a Swift Swim Pokémon in Rain will still be as fast).

    I don't really understand the question.
  9. CPU

    CPU

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    If I'm not mistaken, there is only one instance where Mold Breaker would lower the possesser's damage output, and that's when you use a Fire move on a Pokémon with Dry Skin.

    Which, I think, is where the question comes in.
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    I think positive effect is what the ability grants the user, hence an Earthquake from Rampardos can hit Telepathy Musharna(if teammate) and Latios.

    Does it negate Unaware though? As in, if a -2 Pinsir with Mold Breaker uses Close Combat on Unaware Quagsire, is the damage lower than if it didn't have Mold Breaker?
  11. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Thanks poccil!

    If anyone can give confirmed accounts for Mold Breaker rather than speculation, that would be brilliant.
  12. poccil

    poccil
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    TM13IceBeam:

    I've tested those two situations.

    You are correct, Mold Breaker would suppress even Telepathy, even though Musharna is an ally of Rampardos: "effects due to certain Abilities by non-bearers are not applied."

    Moreover, Mold Breaker will suppress Unaware even if the bearer of Mold Breaker has negative stat stages, that is, even if by suppressing Unaware the attack would deal less damage.
  13. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Unaware does not affect negative stats stages of defenses of the pokémon that has Unaware. If that was true, nobody would use Stockpile or Curse Unaware Quagsire.

    Copypasted from Smogon's web of DP:

    If a Pokemon with the ability Unaware is the target of an attack, all of the attacker's [Special] Attack boosts are ignored. If a Pokemon with the ability Unaware is attacking, all of the defender's [Special] Defense boosts are ignored.
  14. Jaxx

    Jaxx

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    This is B/W not D/P.

    The ability may work differently. You can't just assume that is how it works. This is the research thread, it is for cold, hard FACTS only.
  15. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I have not seen that would be changed.

    Also, now (I don't know DP happens too) Unaware also ignores stats drops like Draco Meteor Latios with -6
  16. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    If I'm reading this correctly:

    Twister and Gust get their damage doubled when hitting Fly/Bounce.

    Smack Down, Thunder, Hurricane, and Sky Uppercut don't, but they still hit Fly/Bounce.

    All of these have normal accuracy (and can still miss if affected by accuracy/evasion modifiers).

    Am I right?
  17. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    So, out of curiosity, I tested Hustle, Hone Claws and Lax Incense...

    Premise: Hustle 80% accuracy, 1 x Hone Claws = 4/3 accuracy, Lax Incense 95% accuracy (or 90%)...

    I used a Tornadus holding a Lax Incense with a partner Hustle Durant with the moveset Metal Claw, Bug Bite, Hone Claws & Iron Head (later with Giga Impact) in a wild double battle.

    Tests:

    1. Hone Claws Hustle Metal Claw (95 acc) vs Lax Incense:
    a) 95 x 0,8 x 0,95 x 4/3 = 96 acc
    b) 95 x 0,8 x 0,90 x 4/3 = 90 acc
    c) 95 x 0,9 x 0,95 x 4/3 = 100 acc
    d) 95 x 0,9 x 0,90 x 4/3 = 100 acc

    Result: After 1 x Hone Claws, Tornadus avoided the 50th and the 61th Metal Claw attack from Hustle Durant targeting it.

    2. Hone Claws Hustle Bug Bite/Iron Head (100 acc) vs Lax Incense:
    a) 100 x 0,8 x 0,95 x 4/3 = 100 acc
    b) 100 x 0,8 x 0,90 x 4/3 = 96 acc

    Result: After 1 x Hone Claws, Tornadus avoided the 53rd, 73rd and 74th Bug Bite/Iron Head attack from Hustle Durant targeting it.

    Lax Incense can´t be a 5% modifier nor a 6,25% modifier (1/16) if Hustle is a 20% modifier.

    3. Hone Claws Hustle Giga Impact (90 acc) vs no hold item:
    a) 90 x 0,8 x 4/3 = 96 acc
    b) 90 x 0,85 x 4/3 = 100 acc

    Result: After 1 x Hone Claws, Tornadus avoided the 33rd Giga Impact attack from Hustle Durant targeting it.

    Hustle is indeed an (at least) 20% accuracy modifier, unless 1 x Hone Claws is a lower than 4/3 accuracy modifier.

    EDIT: I should probably test Hone Claws+Hustle+Metal Claw to see whether Hustle is 80 acc (it would never miss) or 75 acc (it would miss 1 in about 20 tries)

    I´ve also tested Fiery Dance % of raising the spA, various sites list it as 50%. Well, coin flips are always difficult to test. I got:

    6 in 10
    4 in 10
    6 in 8
    6 in 16
    6 in 13

    a total 28 spA boosts in 57 fiery dances, so my tests were pretty accurate with a 49% probability.

    Fiery Dance has a 50% chance to raise spA.


    EDIT: Also tested Hone Claws + Hustle + Metal Claw and Durant hit 112/112. Hustle is definitely a 20% modifier.

    To test whether Lax Incense is a 10% modifier (x0,9), I´d have to use Wide Lens vs Lax Incense with a 100 accurate attack, whether there´s a 1% chance to avoid an attack. Maybe I´ll do this test later.

    Also tested Sacred Sword yesterday, it bypasses foe´s Double Team evasion boosts but will miss against Snow Cloak (damn).
  18. poccil

    poccil
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    aesoft:

    Correct, they have normal accuracy (note the wording "can hit opponent...") except for Thunder and Hurricane in certain cases ("During Rain Dance, this attack can't be evaded").

    For Gust and Twister, the "power is doubled if opponent is using Fly [or] Bounce".
  19. RevolverKnight

    RevolverKnight

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    Tested out "The order that other ability based immunities activate (LightningRod, Storm Drain, Hyper Cutter, Clear Body, Insomnia, Etc.) when using a multi-target attack".

    After multiple tests with Blitzle/Zebastrika (with Lightningrod and Motor Drive) the ally was always activated first, and the order the opponents abilities activate seems to be based on speed.

    The order the activation was:
    Turn one: Ally, Blitzle 2 (Lightningrod at +0), Blitzle 1 (Motor Drive at +0)
    Turn two: Ally, Blitzle 1 (Motor Drive at +2), Blitzle 2 (Lightningrod at +2 )
    Turn three: Same as turn two

    Despite the fact that one of the Zebaskrikas I used had Lightningrod, he "out sped" the +6 the Blitzle and got hit first by discharge. At +6 the Blitzle easily out sped my Lightningrod Zebaskrika when going for a regular attacking move.

    Conclusion: The ally is hit first always, and the order the opponent is hit is based on their speed when the move is used.
  20. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Does it ignore accuracy? And any chance you could test Sword of Mystery (Keldeo's signature move) and Chip Away (Normal-type clone of Sacred Sword)?
  21. CPU

    CPU

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    Secret Sword is a clone of Psyshock, so there's no reason for it to ignore stats like Sacred Sword and Chip Away do.
  22. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    the Beat Up formula is different

    Sacred sword doesn´t ignore your own Accuracy issues from the likes of Flash, it only ignores the defending Pokémon´s Defense and Evasion stat boosts. Note that Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, BrightPowder or Lax Incense are not considered Evasion boosts in this case.

    Mien´s test results

    So, I´ve been using the Whimsicott + Terrakion Beat Up/Justified combo in the Subway and I noticed that it does less damage than expected, expected meaning "applying the above researched formula".

    Using a 0 IV, 64 attack Whimsicott, a 181 attack Terrakion, a 211 attack Darmanitan and a 99 attack Latios, most of the time, beat up did 1+2+2+2 damage. This doesn´t correspond with the formula of using each attacker´s attack.

    Supposed formula calculations #1:
    Beat Up = 11 base power (67/10 + 5)
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion = 1-2 dmg
    181 atk Terrakion vs 110 def Terrakion = 3-4 dmg
    211 atk Darmanitan vs 110 def Terrakion = 4-5 dmg
    99 attack Latios vs 110 def Terrakion = 2-3 dmg

    Supposed formula calculations #2:
    Beat Up Whimsicott = 11 base power
    Beat Up Terrakion = 17 base power
    Beat Up Darmanitan = 19 base power
    Beat Up Latios = 14 base power
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion = 1-2 dmg
    181 atk Terrakion vs 110 def Terrakion = 5-7 dmg
    211 atk Darmanitan vs 110 def Terrakion = 4-5 dmg
    99 attack Latios vs 110 def Terrakion = 2-3 dmg

    The above calcs don´t correspond with the actual damage output I experienced, so I did some in-game double grass double battle tests

    Lv.50, 64 attack Whimscicott (#1) using Beat Up on Lv.100, 74 attack & 107 defense Smeargle (#2), behind them Lv.100, 394 attack Rhydon (#3) and Lv.100, 258 attack Salamence (#4).

    +6 Beat Up damage (X-Attack): 11-8-19-17, 11-8-19-18

    Switched Salamence to Lv.100 Kingdra, 177 attack.

    +6 Beat Up damage (X-Attack): 11-8-35-13 (third hit was a CH)

    So, judging from my test results, the actual Beat Up formula/description should be:

    Beat Up´s base power varies from 5 to 23. When Beat Up is used, for every hit, the actual Attack stat of the initial Beat Up user and the actual Defense stat of the defending Pokémon is used. Only the base power of each Beat Up hit varies, depending on the Pokémon inflicting damage, with the base power formula = 5 + (base Attack/10).

    I hope the wording is understandable. If not, please change it.

    In my case:
    a)
    Beat Up Whimsicott = 11 base power
    Beat Up Terrakion = 17 base power
    Beat Up Darmanitan = 19 base power
    Beat Up Latios = 14 base power
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion using Whimsicott´s Beat Up base power = 1-2 dmg
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion using Terrakion´s Beat Up base power = 2-3 dmg
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion using Damanitan´s Beat Up base power = 2-3 dmg
    64 atk Whimsicott vs 110 def Terrakion using Latios´ Beat Up base power = 2-3 dmg

    Corresponds with my Subway experience of 1-2-2-2, as 2-3-3-3 are only maximum damage rolls, 1-2-2-2 is everything else.

    b)
    Beat Up Whimsicott = 11 base power
    Beat Up Smeargle = 7 base power
    Beat Up Rhydon = 18 base power
    Beat Up Salamence = 18 base power
    Beat Up Kingdra = 14 base power
    256 atk Whimsicott vs 107 def Smeargle using Whimsicott´s Beat Up base power = 11-13 dmg
    256 atk Whimsicott vs 107 def Smeargle using Smeargle´s Beat Up base power = 7-9 dmg
    256 atk Whimsicott vs 107 def Smeargle using Rhydon´s Beat Up base power = 17-20 dmg
    256 atk Whimsicott vs 107 def Smeargle using Salamence´s Beat Up base power = 17-20 dmg
    256 atk Whimsicott vs 107 def Smeargle using Kingdra´s Beat Up base power = 13-16 dmg

    Also corresponds with my test results: 11-8-19-17(18)-13

    This means, that Beat Up+Justified is usable even on the likes of Arcanine, doing max 8 damage from a Whimsicott-Deoxys A (highest base attack) combination hit at level 50.
  23. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Just asking, but did you account for Terrakion's resistance to Dark?
  24. Human

    Human

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    Does Enigma Berry activate while you have a substitute on the pokemon attacked by a super effective hit?
  25. Ningildo

    Ningildo

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    Just asking if it is known that Nature Power is or isn't EQ in Battle Subway.
    If not, it isn't. It changes into Tri Attack when used.
    Tested it in all seven battles of a challenge to check if it changed, but it didn't.

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