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Discussion in 'BW Competitive Discussion' started by ΩDonut, Sep 21, 2010.

1. ### ZarelNot a Yuyuko fanCreator of PS

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Okay, guys. In case I haven't introduced myself, I'm your friendly neighborhood sim coder.

We need to talk about Doom Desire (and Future Sight).

upokecenter, Veekun, and the first page of this research thread are all way too vague.

First, this is the gen 5 damage formula, according to upokecenter:

int(int(int(2*L/5+2)*A*P/D)/50)

where L is the attacker's level, A is the attacker's Attack/Special Attack value, P is the attack's power, and D is the opponent's Defense/Special Defense value.​
In gen 4, Doom Desire was simple. This entire calculation was done at the time Doom Desire was used, the resulting damage was stored, and the resulting damage was directly deducted from the HP of the pokemon in the target's position during the residual phase 3 turns later.

In gen 5, that changed. Most of this calculation isn't done at the time Doom Desire is used, but at the time it hits.

The big problem is: Stats can change (e.g. Jirachi can be hit by Memento), pokemon can be switched, and even types can change (e.g. Soak, Color Change).

So when you say "attacker's SpA" - does "attacker" mean "pokemon who used Doom Desire" or "pokemon in the position the Doom Desire user was in when it used the move"? And are we talking about the SpA at the time of use or the SpA at the time of hit?

And what about STAB? Is it calculated with the attacker's type at time of use? Attacker's type at time of hit? Type of the pokemon in the position the attacker was in when it used Doom Desire?

And gems? The first page says gems are calculated at time of hit: Does it take the attacker's item, or the item of the pokemon in the position the attacker was in when it used Doom Desire?

It seems most of these should apply either to the pokemon in the position of the attacker was when it used Doom Desire, or be a stored value from the attacker at the time of move usage, since pokemon not on the field are practically never interacted with during a battle [the only exceptions being Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Illusion / Beat Up / Assist].

Even if that's safe to assume, the question is still: What's stored? People I've talked to say the SpA of the attacker is probably stored, but do we know this for sure? And is anything else stored? Level of the attacker? Type of the attacker?

upokecenter has a huge list of things that can modify damage: http://upokecenter.dreamhosters.com/games/dp/guides/damage.php (This is poccil's gen 4 list since his gen 5 list is incomplete)

Is it safe to assume these are all applied at time of hit, to the pokemon in the position the attacker was in when it used Doom Desire?

It also seems like Doom Desire is now not handled as residual damage, but as a move being resolved during the residual phase of a turn. What is considered the attacker? Is it a placeholder, like the defender of an attack that hits a Substitute? The fact that Gems are used at the time of hit suggests that it's not a placeholder.

And we say Doom Desire can't be used with Future Sight - what happens when both are used? Does the older one get replaced? Does the newer one fail? Is it safe to assume Doom Desire / Future Sight are associated with the attacker's position (i.e. limit one per attacker position at a time, but any number per target)?
2. ### poccil

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aesoft:

You've raised some good questions. However, the only one I can answer right now is, "And we say Doom Desire can't be used with Future Sight - what happens when both are used". It means that once Doom Desire or Future Sight is used against an opponent, neither move can be used against that opponent while the effect is on the opponent. This is one of the usual rules of stacking effects: "Generally, moves with the same function code don't stack with each other. For example, the moves Mean Look, Spider Web, and Block share the same effect. Once any of these moves is used, they will fail against the same target until the effect is removed."

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People have tested (I think it was Antar? I don't have the post link anymore) and confirmed it uses the user's Sp. Attack the moment the move hits. This means a Doom Desire used by a +6 Jirachi that's switched out before the residual phase hits as strong as a Doom Desire from a +0 Jirachi.

EDIT-- Here. Also, this post and the following ones may be of your interest.
4. ### Death PhenomenoI'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I

Joined:
Feb 20, 2006
Messages:
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If you have a Pokémon with boosted stats, any boosted stats, and then use Power/Guard/Heart Swap on the Contrary Pokémon, what happens to those boosts?

Are they kept the same, or are they flipped around because of Contrary?

5. ### AJC

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contrary only effects direct stat ups/downs (both self inflicted and caused by the foe) not indirect ones like being Baton passed boosts/drops or being swapped like the above.

in other words it only works on stat changes that are caused directly by the user or foe via move like non ghost curse or a move aftereffect like Leaf Storm or Superpower or a ability like Intimidate.

the above scenario doesn't apply for contrary stat change effect reversal.
6. ### poccil

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Jun 18, 2007
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Due to testing I just did, I added the following, currently provisional, sentence to my
description for Future Sight and Doom Desire:

To your question, "It also seems like Doom Desire is now [handled] as a move being resolved during the residual phase of a turn. What is considered the attacker?:

My description states: "Returned attack is considered an attack by the user". However, if the user isn't active and has an Ability or is holding an item that triggers on attacks by their bearer, that effect won't trigger.
7. ### ZarelNot a Yuyuko fanCreator of PS

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3,157

It is clear that the entirety of the Doom Desire damage calculation is done at the time of hit, and it is not done on stored values at all.

This makes Doom Desire quite straightforward if the user stays in, but if the user switches out, damage is calculated as if the user were the attacker anyway.

My theory is that it works similarly to Beat Up. This explains why Beat Up isn't a contact attack - it could get messy for Poison Point to poison a pokemon outside of battle.
8. ### ZarelNot a Yuyuko fanCreator of PS

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Apparently no resource that I trust (veekun, upokecenter, this thread) contains information on which status moves are affected by type immunities (upokecenter appears to contain it, but only up to gen 3).

Therefore, it'd be nice if someone could test these for me:

PSYCHIC
- Hypnosis
(Test on a Dark-type)

NORMAL
- Glare
- Sing
- Lovely Kiss
(Test on a Ghost-type)

ELECTRIC
- Thunder Wave
(Test on a Ground-type)

POISON
- PoisonPowder
- Toxic
- Poison Gas
(Test on a Steel-type)

GRASS
- Spore
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- GrassWhistle
- Leech Seed
(Test on Sap Sipper - DO NOT TEST ON GRASS-TYPE: i.e. yes Bouffalant, no Sawsbuck)

FIRE
- Will-O-Wisp
(Test on Flash Fire)
9. ### breh強いだね

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Feb 6, 2010
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all of those succeed bar the last two (former raises attack, latter raises fire moves' power.. not too sure about the last one, though)

is bide affected by life orb?

is sticky barb's description the same in this gen? does text indicate its presence?
10. ### atsyncWhere the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!

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Mar 28, 2011
Messages:
1,049
Thunder Wave doesn't work on ground types. That's already in the OP (there was a rumour going around early on that TW could hit grounds, but it was busted).

Steels block all forms of poison, and Will-o-Wisp does activate Flash Fire
11. ### poccil

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Jun 18, 2007
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My generation 3 description for Thunder Wave and Glare reads "Paralyzes opponent. Affected by type immunities." because the Normal-type move Glare has no effect on Ghost-type Pokemon in that generation. The phrase "affected by type immunities" wouldn't have appeared otherwise.

See my explanation pages under "Descriptions of Common Effects" (generation 3, gen. 4, and gen. 5) for information on whether certain types are not affected by certain status problems).
12. ### breh強いだね

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if imposter ditto is used in a double or triple battle, which opponent does it copy?
13. ### bluemon

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Oct 21, 2010
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the pokemon directly opposite of you.

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53
And what if i use perish song? Are all (6 or 4) pokemon affected?
15. ### Youkai Enslaver

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Nov 2, 2006
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I was training Wormadam today on Route 14 where there are wild Drifblim that know Explosion, but Anticipation was not activating. I played around with the ability with Skill Swap, but it never activated.

Anyone else experience this?

EDIT: A few more details: Anticipation activated like normal in other battles to Tropius and Mienshao because they have Flying-type attacks. In a double battle, when I Skill Swapped the ability to Drifblim, it activated to my Simipour's Ice Beam.
16. ### PidgeCAW

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Aug 26, 2005
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Is it possible to tie/draw a wi-fi battle in Black/White? If not, Self-KO Clause is essentially pointless. I've looked at some Youtube videos, and there are declared winners.

The user of Destiny Bond loses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdP0ionlFA
The user of Rocky Helmet wins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8ptpj4-JI
The user of Final Gambit loses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HE8Mni3dxw
The user of Life Orb wins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESBCyHAK9yE

However, I heard that it appears on both players' screens 'player defeated opponent'. So which is it? Does the game itself declare a winner and loser, or does it say both players are winners on their own screen?
17. ### poccil

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Pidge:

It's a special rule applied to Random Matchup battles, as was done on the recent Autumn Friendly tournament. I've summarized the rules as follows (note the underlined words):

Youkai Enslaver:

Anticipation doesn't trigger because the opponent has Selfdestruct or Explosion per se.

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Anticipation ability does something different than what Forewarn ability does..

@ Breludicolo

I assume it to be which opponent is faster out of the opponents field. I want to know what happens to Imposter in a Rotation...
19. ### ΩDonutdon't glaze me bro

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Anticipation DID alert the player if the opponent had Explosion or Selfdestruct, as well as OHKO moves, in Gen 4. I think I tested that one myself, actually.

I'll credit Youkai Enslaver with discovering the change. It's worth testing to see if Anticipation still responds to OHKO moves or not.
20. ### MB Espeon

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May 10, 2007
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Aaaaaand tested. Anticipation DID trigger when presented with an OHKO move from the opponent. So it looks like that's unchanged.

Tested this with a Ditto-turned-Landorus (with only rock and ground attacks, including fissure) and an anticipation Eevee (Only weak to fighting) so the only way it could have triggered was through fissure.
21. ### poccil

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Apparently, that is incorrect. In my generation 4 test. I made sure a Pokemon with Anticipation
was up against another Pokemon that knows only Explosion. In this case, no message appeared.
22. ### Missingno. Master

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May 31, 2006
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I know for a fact that Glare works on Ghost-types.
23. ### MB Espeon

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May 10, 2007
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It's on the first post. Just press Ctrl+F on the first page and type "Defeatist" and you'll get your results. But I'll quote it here for now.

So it's just the two attacking stats.

I'm surprised a first page question got re-asked over 100 pages later.
24. ### mien

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That's because Alice748 is not human but a bot that automatically copies one of the posts on the first page.
25. ### TM13IceBeam

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Oct 22, 2010
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you mean this?

I know for sure that most of these bypass the immunes, except for TWave against Ground, the poison moves against Steel, and Will-o-Wisp activates FF.

The only one I'm not sure on is Grass against Boufflant... I think I might have an extra Bouffalant lying around in my PC...