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B&W Research Thread

Discussion in 'BW Competitive Discussion' started by ΩDonut, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. RocketSurgery

    RocketSurgery

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    Bringing this up again, as I don't think it was responded to, and there's currently a Slaking thread in which people are discussing strategies to get Mummy onto Slaking, so it would be useful to know if it's even possible.
  2. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    lol, 76 moves later...

    The_Chaser and I tested every Mischievous Heart applicable move in the game. In order to keep the test as accurate as possible, we only used Pokemon who could actually get Mischievous Heart in the game, and for each of these Pokemon, we only used moves that they could learn. Getting a list of these moves was made a lot easier thanks to Ditto's post here, so thanks a ton Ditto! Here are the moves we tested, and the Pokemon who we used to test them:

    Natural Mischievous Heart Pokemon
    Erufuun (open)
    -Growth
    -Leech Seed
    -Cotton Spore
    -Tailwind
    -Toxic
    -Sunny Day
    -Taunt
    -Light Screen
    -Protect
    -Safeguard
    -Double Team
    -Rest
    -Attract
    -Flash
    -Swagger
    -Substitute
    -Encore
    -Tickle
    -Fake Tears
    -Grass Whistle
    -Memento
    -Switcheroo
    -Worry Seed
    -Stun Spore
    -Poisonpowder
    -Charm
    -Helping Hand
    -Cotton Guard
    -Trick Room

    Borutorosu (open)
    -Heal Block
    -Agility
    -Charge
    -Nasty Plot
    -Bulk Up
    -Rain Dance
    -Embargo
    -Thunderwave

    Dream World Only Mischievous Heart Pokemon
    Murkrow (open)
    -Haze
    -Mean Look
    -Postpone
    -Torment
    -Calm Mind
    -Psych up
    -Screech
    -Roost
    -Psycho Shift
    -Featherdance
    -Perish Song
    -Confuse Ray
    -Mirror Move
    -Whirlwind

    Sabeleye (open)
    -Detect
    -Foresight
    -Leer
    -Claw Sharpen
    -Telekinesis
    -Will-o-wisp
    -Moonlight
    -Recover
    -Flatter
    -Trick
    -Captivate

    Volbeat (open)
    -Tail Glow
    -Baton Pass

    Illumise (open)
    -Wish
    -Sweet Scent

    Riolu (open)
    -Endure
    -Copycat
    -Roar
    -Swords Dance
    -Mind Reader
    -Iron Defense

    Leparudasu (open)
    -Growl
    -Assist
    -Sand Attack
    -Snatch
    -Yawn
    -Covet


    We used a max speed Crobat with Roost against these Pokemon for most of the tests (with a few exceptions, which I will go into detail about in a bit).

    Here is the list of moves which successfully went before Crobat could move:
    Show Hide
    Leech Seed, Cotton Spore,Tailwind, Toxic, Sunny Day, Taunt, Light Screen, Protect, Safeguard, Double Team, Rest, Attract, Flash, Swagger, Substitute, Encore, Tickle, Fake Tears, Grass Whistle, Memento, Switcheroo, Worry Seed, Stun Spore, Poisonpowder, Charm, Helping Hand, Cotton Guard, Heal Block, Agility, Charge, Nasty Plot, Bulk Up, Rain Dance, Embargo, Thunderwave, Haze, Mean Look, Postpone, Torment, Calm Mind, Psych up, Screech, Roost, Psycho Shift, Featherdance, Perish Song, Confuse Ray, Detect, Foresight, Leer, Claw Sharpen, Telekinesis, Will-o-wisp, Moonlight, Recover, Flatter, Trick, Captivate, Tail Glow, Baton Pass, Wish, Sweet Scent, Endure, Copycat, Swords Dance, Mind Reader, Iron Defense, Growl, Assist, Sand Attack, Snatch, Yawn, Covet


    Here is the list of moves that went before Crobat could move, but failed:
    Show Hide
    Mirror Move


    Here is the list of moves that successfully went after Crobat moved:
    Show Hide
    Trick Room, Whirlwind, Roar


    With these results in mind, we wanted to see if there was one all-encompassing rule for why Mischievous Heart worked the way it did. The obvious answer was that it gave each of these "non-attacking" moves +1 priority from their normal priority. To test this, we tried a few scenarios:

    1. Slow Murkrow Whirlwind vs. Fast Aerodactyl Whirlwind
    Result: Slow Murkrow's Whirlwind went first

    2. Slow Riolu Bullet Punch vs. Fast Riolu Swords Dance
    Result: Fast Riolu's Swords Dance went first

    3. Slow Riolu Swords Dance vs. Fast Riolu Bullet Punch
    Result: Fast Riolu's Bullet Punch went first

    4. Slow Lucario Extremespeed vs. Fast Riolu Swords Dance
    Result: Slow Lucario's Extremespeed went first

    These tests all confirm that Mischievous Heart only adds 1 level of priority to any non-attacking moves.

    Some other interesting finds:

    -Mirror Move will fail against a regular attack when backed by Mischievous Heart, but if a faster Pokemon uses a priority attack (such as Bullet Punch), or any Pokemon uses a +2 priority or higher attack (such as Extremespeed), Mirror Move will succeed
    -Mischievous Heart boosted Assist will allow the user use all moves at +1 priority, even those which normally have -6 priority, such as Whirlwind. You heard me right, that's a +1 priority Whirlwind... lol
  3. mattj

    mattj blatant Nintendo fanboy

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    That's such an incredible job there. I was so looking forward to finally getting all the info on this amazing ability ironed out. Thank you! 1 question though.
    How sure are you that it's "all moves"? What moves did you test? Did you specifically test Whirlwind? Any others? Just curious. That's almost too good to be true!
  4. TheMaskedNitpicker

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    Nice work. #1 is good to know, but you should test if a faster Mischievous Whirlwind user moves before a slower Counter user and if a slower Mischievous Whirlwind user moves before a faster Counter user before you nail it down to exactly one priority level in all cases. Also, can a fast Mischievous Trick Room user go before a slow non-Mischievous Whirlwind user, etc. Once we test this, I'll move it from tentative to confirmed.

    Whoa, hold on there. I think we're a long way from drawing conclusions about how Mirror Move works. In 4th gen, it was probably the most complicated move in the game, and its implementation has changed yet again in gen 5.

    When you say that it fails against a regular-priority move, what move was that, Roost? Mirror Move doesn't replicate Roost because Roost doesn't target the Mirror Move user. And if it was an actual attack, did the Mirror Move user still fail to replicate the move on the following turn?

    According to your Crobat test, what you mean is that it's a –5 priority Whirlwind, aka a Whirlwind with priority one level higher than normal. We need to be explicit when talking about these things or we get misunderstandings.
  5. The_Chaser

    The_Chaser RVW
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    I just tested this with jumpluff with her using fast guard Lucario against a faster and a slower leech seed Erufuun with Mischievous Heart. In both tests leech side hit through fast guard so I assume does fast guard does not block Mischievous Heart moves and only works against moves with naturally built in priority.
  6. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Yeah that makes sense. I'll get that test done soon.

    It didn't replicate Roost, so we tried an attacking move. Unfortunately, the only attacking move Crobat had was U-turn, so that was all we tested with it. here were the U-turn results:

    Turn 1:
    Murkrow used Mirror Move, but it failed!
    Crobat used U-turn!
    Crobat returned to its Pokeball. Philip7086 switched Crobat 2 out

    Turn 2:
    Murkrow used Mirror Move, but it failed!
    Crobat 2 used U-turn!
    Crobat 2 returned to its Pokeball. Philip7086 switched Crobat out

    So yeah, even after two turns, Mirror Move failed to produce an attack. Whether this was different from "usual" because of U-turn being a unique move or not, I don't know. The_Chaser and I can test this out more if you'd like.

    No, I think I said it right there. I was explaining a situation where the Mischievous Heart Pokemon used Assist, and it happened to pick Whirlwind (yes, we tested this out). Whirlwind came out before the faster opponent could move. This sounds to me like Assist kept the +1 priority of Mischievous Heart and produced Whirlwind at that priority level, instead of -5. This was probably confusing, because earlier I said we tested Whirlwind straight with Mischievous Heart, which yielded what appeared to be a -5 priority. With the Assist buffer, though, the -priority of Whirlwind is ignored.

    Edit:

    Yes, we specifically tested Whirlwind, and it worked. It also produced Close Combat among other moves, so I'm fairly sure on this.
  7. Zeke50100

    Zeke50100

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    So, Assist is essentially a Sleep Talk that doesn't require sleep status in regards to priority?

    Roar/Whirlwind/Assist/Protect could be a rather interesting moveset, assuming something that can use it exists.

    I'm assuming that Sleep Talk would work the same way, yes?
  8. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    Yeah, U-turn won't work for this case if Mirror Move still works mostly like it did last gen. The Mirror Move Pokémon "forgets" U-turn the moment your Crobat leaves the field.

    Oh, man, I totally misread that yet again! My eyes just skipped right over the word 'Assist'. My sincerest apologies!

    Anyhow, I'll be updating the OP now with everybody's findings.
  9. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Yeah, I figured as much. We'll test this with a regular attack and the full priority conclusions of Mischievous Heart ASAP. Thanks for your insight!
  10. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

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    Assist picks a random move that any one of your party Pokemon knows, excluding the user. So you would have to have all the Pokemon on your entire team have Roar/Whirlwind and then you would have to get lucky.
  11. ΩDonut

    ΩDonut don't glaze me bro
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    Except there are a lot of moves that Assist doesn't pick.

    Does Assist still select:

    Assist, Chatter, Copycat, Counter, Covet, Destiny Bond, Detect, Endure, Feint, Focus Punch, Follow Me, Helping Hand, Me First, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Coat, Mirror Move, Protect, Sketch, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Struggle, Switcheroo, Thief, Trick

    And furthermore, does it select moves from all teammates, or just the conscious ones? (I know it hasn't been like this for the past two generations, but I always keep hoping they'll implement it like they did in Colosseum\XD.) I have a few Assist Pokemon, I'll test out this one.
  12. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    Actually, if Assist works the way it did in 4th gen, having more Pokémon on your team know a move doesn't increase the probability of it being selected. Having both Roar and Whirlwind at least once each would help, though.

    (Sorry, had to get my nitpicking quota in for today.)
  13. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
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    About the new sleep mechanics:

    Rest has also been affected by this. To summarize: if you use Rest, immediately switch out, then switch in and sleep 1 turn and then switch out again, the next time you switch in you'll have to sleep the whole 2 turns.

    I'd also like to point something out. Several "test" (including precisely this one) have been done using the patch that somewhat translates the you-know-what. YouTube users claim that this affects several things (such as the Toxic Orb either crashing the game or locking a user's moves like a choice item). Just saying.
  14. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    I can confirm that Assist can choose moves from dead mons. I witnessed this as I was playing through White.

    Have a nice day.
  15. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

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    Other good moves to test would be the two turn moves like Fly, Shadow Force, and Free Fall. It seems odd that Assist would choose those moves when Sleep Talk wouldn't.

    I didn't know Assist worked like that. You could also put Dragon Tail and the new Fighting move on your team, but those only have 90 Accuracy. Wide Lens could certainly fix that, though, since you don't really need the Speed that a Choice Scarf would give you like you would without Miscievous Heart.
  16. TheMaskedNitpicker

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    It's not really that odd. Two-turn attacks would be kind of wonky if you could use them while you were asleep.
  17. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

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    What do you mean? Like the Pokemon would be asleep on the second turn so they would just fail and you'd come back like what happens when you get hit by Confusion?
  18. MooOnceMore

    MooOnceMore

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    Well, taking Mischievous Heart into consideration: +1 Assist picks Fly, you Fly up, opponents Pokemon moves, in turn 2 you have no priority and you then go last (if you are slower) so you don't get hit.
    Awesome stall right there..
  19. TheMaskedNitpicker

    TheMaskedNitpicker Triple Threat
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    This is probably the way it works (which would be cool), but something's nagging at me. The move Bide normally has a +1 priority, but in 4th gen, if Bide was called by a 0-priority move (like Metronome), it would have 0 priority for all three turns. I'm 90% sure I remember it working this way.

    So there is precedent; it's possible that that all turns of a multi-turn move called by Assist will have the same priority that Assist had, which could be very useful if Assist calls, say, Rollout. We'll need to run tests to verify how it works.
  20. PK Gaming

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    The latter. When Ditto switch in's he was effectively a Salamance at 1+ speed.

    Also those Electra Ball Calcs don't look half bad! Although you'll need to use Agility to make any good use out of it.
    Edit: It actually looks amazing. Since it works off the target speed, an agility mon will almost always hit max power using Electra ball! Awesome.
  21. El_Sargento

    El_Sargento

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  22. DDRMaster

    DDRMaster

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    That's what it looks like. There's no way anything used Gravity before Sazando switched in and its only ability is Levitate. Someone should still test it to make sure, as well as Spikes, because it could be that it's just a hacked Sazando.

    These posts indicate that Regeneration does not activate when you switch out with U-turn. Someone should test this as well as other moves that could be considered different than regular switching like Volt Change, Baton Pass, Roar/Whirlwind, Dragon Tail/Overhead Throw, and Pursuit.

    Edit: Regeneration also might not work if the Pokemon has more than 2/3 HP, since it wouldn't be able to heal the full 1/3 without it going over.
  23. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    I wouldn't be surprised if the guy just hacked a different ability on that Sazandora, but I guess this should be tested?
  24. Legacy Raider

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLzQHt2TXsc

    U-turn is used at 0:21 and kojondo takes LO recoil, when it comes back in at 5:27 it's back at full health.
  25. ΩDonut

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    There seems to be an awful lot of hacking going on these games. At 1:25 Nattorei gets hit by Wargle's Brave Bird but Wargle doesn't even take damage from Iron Barbs. Either that, or something's wrong with the mechanics in these translated patches. (Doubtful, but not outside the realm of possibility.)

    From now on any discovery that cites a video not made by finder should be considered tentative until it can be proven by one of our own.

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