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Discussion in 'BW Competitive Discussion' started by ΩDonut, Sep 21, 2010.

1. ### CPU

Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
Messages:
475
"rnddown" is known mathematically as "math.floor"

Good work, though, I'm interested to know how it works with scaling.
2. ### mien

Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
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741
I finished my research on Beat up, sorry that i'm a bit late the move was more complicated then i originally thought (not to mention that confirming Max and min damage for every test takes hours).
Ignore the results of my former test, as they might be confusing.

Tests
All pokemon are lvl 100
All maximum and minimum damage results have been confirmed in-game.
Teammate damages are listed in Blue

First i needed to figure out what Beat up's new formula was. But no matter how many tests and calculations i did, the results never made sense. Until yesterday when i suddenly got an idea, what if Beat up uses both the actual Attack and Defence for it's formula and has a variable BasePower based on the user's Base Attack?

Code:
Machamp 394 attack against 130 Defense Blissey 39-47 damage
Machamp 238 attack against 130 Defense Blissey 24-29 damage
Machamp 394 attack against 56 Defense Blissey  91-108 damage
Fellowing pokemon with 250 Attack using Beat up against a 130 Defence Blissey.
Code:
Farfetch'D(65 Base)  16-19 damage    = 11 BP
Wigglytuff(70 Base)  17-21 damage    = 12 BP
Ampharos(75 Base)    17-21 damage    = 12 BP
Pidgeot(80 Base)     19-23 damage    = 13 BP
Lickilicky(85 Base)  19-23 damage    = 13 BP
Crobat(90 Base)      20-24 damage    = 14 BP
Kangaskan(95 Base)   20-24 damage    = 14 BP
Celebi(100 Base)     22-26 damage    = 15 BP
Mesprit(105 Base)    22-26 damage    = 15 BP
Swampert(110 Base)   22-27 damage    = 16 BP
Entei(115 Base)      22-27 damage    = 16 BP
Staraptor(120 Base)  24-29 damage    = 17 BP
Pinsir(125 Base)     24-29 damage    = 17 BP
Machamp(130 Base)    26-31 damage    = 18 BP

If Base Attack has influence on Beat up, does Base Defence have an influence as well?

Machamp with 394 attack using Beat up on the fellowing pokemon with 130 Defence
Code:
Blissey(10 Base)     39-47 damage    = 18 BP
Fearow(65 Base)      39-47 damage    = 18 BP
Do attack modifiers work on Beat up and the user's teammates?

Fellowing pokemon with 394 actual attack and 130 Base attack(except Blissey who has 50 Attack and 10 Base attack) using Beat up on a Blissey with 130 Defence

Code:
Machamp (none)             39-47 damage
[COLOR="Blue"]Absol (Choice Band)        39-47 damage
Blissey (none)             12-15 damage[/COLOR]

Machamp (+2 Attack Stage)  79-93 damage
[COLOR="Blue"]Absol (Choice Band)        79-93 damage
Blissey (none)             24-29 damage[/COLOR]

Machamp (Choice Band)      59-70 damage
Machamp (Guts)             59-70 damage
Absol(STAB)                58-70 damage
Is Beat up still typeless or is it effected by the target's typing?
Machamp with 394 attack using Beat up against the fellowing with 130 Defense
Code:
Blissey                39-47 damage
Gardevoir              78-94 damage
Cacturne               19-23 damage

I have done a lot of other tests but since they have been done under a wrong assumption the results are irrelevant

Results

Beat Up's Base Power Formula= 5 + (User's Base Attack/10)

Confirmed Gen V Beat up mechanics:
- Dark Type pokemon get STAB on Beat up
- Beat up now uses actual Attack and Defense for it's damage formula for both the user and it's teammates
- The target's Base Defense does not influence Beat up's damage formula
- When the Beat up user it's attack has been modified it also applies to it's teammates, For example a Machamp using Choice Band gives a 1.5x boost to all teammates
- Beat up ignores all attack modifications from teammates, for example if you have a Dugtrio using Beat up, the Tyranitar in your team won't get STAB bonus
- Each hit of Beat up has a chance of landing a Critical hit
- Beat Up no longer lists which pokemon are attacking
- Every pokemon in the user's party does damage except those who are fainted or have been inflicted a major status condition
- Beat up is no longer typeless and does more or less damage based on the target's typing aka super or not very effective damage
- No pokemon receives recoil damage when the target is holding Rugged Helmet
- Life Orb only makes the Beat Up user lose 10% of it's damage.

If there are any questions, mistakes or things i missed, don't hesitate to say so
3. ### ΩDonutdon't glaze me bro

Joined:
Aug 23, 2006
Messages:
3,727
mien, your first post on Beat Up said

If it was based on both CB and actual Attack, shouldn't these values be different?
4. ### mien

Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
Messages:
741
These results are from a Machamp using Beat up, those absols are teammates.
Like i said ignore the previous test, it's confusing and i made wrong assumptions
5. ### Philip7086Myuu

Joined:
Jun 23, 2008
Messages:
3,205
Another big test chunk w/ Setsuna. Here's what we did:

We tested this using six level 1 Serene Grace Fire Punch Jirachis holding Focus Sash against my Rugged Helmet Earthquake Doryuuzu. Fire Punch was able to successfully burn Doryuuzu before Jirachi fainted to Rugged Helmet damage.

I saw that mien just sniped this from us while we were testing other things... but we can confirm that Rugged Helmet does not do damage to any Pokemon when Beat up is used -- even the Pokemon who used Beat Up. In other words, I'm assuming Beat Up is not a contact move.

Neither ability triggered an animation upon entering a battle. Both tested in the same battle.

We tested this a few times, even trying to see if changing Pokecenters changed the move, but each time Nature Power called Earthquake on Wi-Fi.

Again, we tested this a few times at different Pokecenters, and each time Secret Power lowered its opponent's Accuracy by one stage (well, when the side effect activated, that is).

We tested this using Bind and Vicegrip. Neither move saw a damage increase from the attack. Bind's residual damage at the end of the turn, though, was increased to 1/8 HP, as opposed to 1/16 normally.

Submerge failed against Arceus when it was holding an Iron Plate.

-----

To summarize:

• Fire Punch can still burn through Rugged Helmet. I'd assume this is the same for other status side effect moves, such as Thunderpunch, etc.
• No Pokemon receives recoil damage from Rugged Helmet when the move Beat Up is used.
• Bronzong's Levitate and Heatproof animations do not activate upon entering the battle, even if a different Bronzong had entered previously.
• Nature Power calls Earthquake on Wi-Fi. Changing Pokecenters does not change this.
• Secret Power's side effect is lowering its opponent's Accuracy one stage on Wi-Fi. Changing Pokecenters does not change this.
• Pressure Band does not increase a move's base power. It does, however, increase the residual damage at the end of the turn from 1/16 to 1/8 HP
• Arceus's type cannot be changed using moves like Submerge if it is holding a Type Plate.
6. ### Zebstrika

Joined:
Oct 3, 2010
Messages:
1,054
Is Beat Up still boosted by STAB?
Is it boosted by type boosting items (Black glasses, plates, elemental gems, etc.)?
Can your allies get these boosts? Do the allies only get the boost if the user has these items or STAB? Can an ally can get one of these boosts from their own items or STAB?
In a triple battle, say the user is targeting the enemy on the far right. Can the ally on the far left hit it?

It's too bad Beat Up didn't have typing in earlier generations (before gen 4), because then there would be a usable physical dark move.
7. ### ΩDonutdon't glaze me bro

Joined:
Aug 23, 2006
Messages:
3,727
Okay, so to summarize:

Beat Up uses the actual Attack of the user only for each hit.
The BP of each hit depends on the base Attack of each teammate.

Correct?
8. ### mien

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Jul 13, 2008
Messages:
741
Beat up get's STAB, i'll add it in the results list
I haven't tested type boosting items however since it's no longer typeless i assume it does get the boost.
Allies only get the boost if the user has these items and/or STAB, their own items or STAB's are ignored.

I have zero expierence with triples battles, so i can't answer that question

It's the opposite, Beat up uses the actual attack of each teammate and the BP is based on it's user's Base Attack.

My apologises if my results list is confusing, it's hard to make correct definitions in a different language

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Quick stupid idea, but... is Beat Up boosted by Technician on the user? Is it boosted by Technician on a teammate?
10. ### mien

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If the user has Technician the user and all his teammates get a 1.5x damage boost.
If a teammate has Technician but the user does not, it won't get any boost.
11. ### Zebstrika

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Oct 3, 2010
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So it uses the real attack of each teammate, but the boosts of the user?
12. ### mien

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Jul 13, 2008
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Yes, that is correct

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Nov 15, 2006
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But what happened exactly? Did both Bronzongs fall off to the ground, or did both float?

Suddenly, awesomeness.
14. ### SetsunaPrototype

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Jan 1, 2009
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Both floated, not a single peculiarity in either of the Bronzong to be honest.
15. ### DDRMaster

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Jun 26, 2008
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2,689
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but when Nature Power calls a move, is it exactly the same as if the Pokemon used the move themselves? For example, if a Shiftry uses Nature Power on Wi-Fi, is it using a 100 Base Power Ground move with 100 Accuracy?
16. ### breh強いだね

Joined:
Feb 6, 2010
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3,283
Does Nature Power activate LO recoil, fail due to taunt, or cause sucker punch to fail?

Essentially does the game treat it as an attacking move or a status move?

EDIT: If a (for example) Emboar is hacked to have levitate, will it still cause a dust cloud?
17. ### Sixonesix

Joined:
Dec 2, 2007
Messages:
2,608
Sorry, meant to respond to this much earlier.

Yes, I can confirm that "Reset Move" occurs after all Pokemon have attacked and weather damage has been dealt.

Presumably, ability does not affect a Pokemon's entry at all. In the same way a Heatproof Bronzong will float when it enters, a Shibirudon with Levitate will still crash to the ground.
18. ### reaverz

Joined:
Jan 3, 2007
Messages:
307
Unless something's changed (which isn't implied by Philip7086's post), then Shiftry will use the actual move Earthquake. Nature Power goes something like this in previous gens:

Shiftry used Nature Power!
Nature Power turned into Earthquake!
Shiftry used Earthquake!
*animation and damage calculation*
19. ### Ryanide

Joined:
Aug 23, 2007
Messages:
300
Does beat-up's damage count as a single attack? Or is it multiple attacks that will gain power with metronome? Also, what happens if you use it on a pokemon with Justice Heart?

I understand it's been thoroughly tested, but I'm still having trouble determining just how it works. If I use Beat up with weavile, does that mean the move's base power is effectively 12.5 for every hit, or just the first hit?
20. ### Sceats

Joined:
Dec 30, 2008
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575
Awesome to see nature power have such an awesome change, but does it still turn to eq in local matches? Afterall that's the metagame we normally go by.
21. ### mien

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Jul 13, 2008
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741
Considering the boosts only takes effect on it's user, the damage count will be token as a single attack. As such if you use it on a pokemon with justice heart i'm pretty much certain it will only boost once not 6 times. -> edit: I'll test this when i have time

Beat up's formula: 5 + (User's Base Attack/10)
For Weavile this means: 5 + (125/10)= 5 + 12.5 = 17 BP (rounded down)
If a Weavile uses Beat up, the Basepower will be 17 for every hit and in Weavile's case, every hit also gains STAB boost.

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Correct.
23. ### MeroMero

Joined:
Sep 18, 2010
Messages:
79
Concerning the item Pumice Stone:
_it cuts in half its holder's weight;
_combined with the ability Light Metal, it effectively divides by 4 the Pokémon's original weight.

Pokémon used:
_Machamp
_Entei (198 kg / 436.5 lb)
_Rayquaza (206.5 kg / 455.2 lb)
_Metagross (550 kg / 1215.5 lb)

First test: Machamp (394 Atk) using Low Kick vs Entei (434 HP / 295 Def)
w/o Pumice Stone: 168 HP dealt (100 bp)
with Pumice Stone: 123 HP dealt (80 bp)

Second test (to see if Pumice Stone has a modifier /2 or /3): Machamp (394 Atk) using Low Kick vs Rayquaza (321 HP / 192 Def)
w/o Pumice Stone: 149 HP dealt (120 bp)
with Pumice Stone: 122 HP dealt (100 bp)

At this point we know the the Pumice Stone divide by 2 the weight of its holder, but what about Light Metal ?

Third test: Machamp (394 Atk) using Low Kick vs Metagross with the Light Metal ability (364 HP / 394 Def)
with Pumice Stone: 112 HP dealt (100 bp)

Now we know as well that it stacks with Light Metal as well (and presumably with Heavy Metal as well, but it's rather pointless).

Yes to the three questions:

LO recoil:
_Shiftry used Nature Power
_Nature Power became Hydro Pump
_Shiftry used Hydro Pump
_The wild Basurao fainted
_Shiftry takes 10% from Life Orb recoil

Taunt:
_Absol used Taunt
_Shiftry fell for the Taunt
_Shiftry can't use Nature Power after the Taunt

Sucker Punch:
_Absol used Sucker Punch
_But it failed!
_Shiftry used Nature Power
_Nature Power became Earthquake
_Shiftry used Earthquake

So Nature Power is a status move, but for the purpose of Life Orb the game treat it as an attacking move.
24. ### Machi

Joined:
Sep 21, 2010
Messages:
783
Seeing as Leaf Guard's mechanic has changed:
Does this apply to rain+hydration+rest as well?
25. ### Jayceja

Joined:
Jun 11, 2009
Messages:
55
it shouldnt
hydration cures status problems, whereas leaf guard prevents it, hence the difference, that hasnt changed, so neither should the interaction with rest

EDIT: i mean the hydration interaction shouldntve changed, in case someone could misinterpret that sentence