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Balanced Bulky Offense

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by BurtonEarny, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. BurtonEarny

    BurtonEarny

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    -INTRO-

    Hello guys, BnE here with my first RMT of this generation. I won't preface this too much with stuff about NU and why I chose the tier and instead I'll just move into the meat and the potatoes of this thread.

    -Build Process-
    The original draft for this team was really rough and the smoothing out of the team has gone... not so well. Anyway, the original premise was that I wanted a fire/ water/ grass core to run alongside a klang/ musharna combo because they were both bulky and had little to no trouble switching into each others weaknesses and threatening to set up. However, musharna quickly became a heal bell user for the team and I was even running it specially defensive for a while. It was then that I remembered grumpig and decided to give it a try. The fit was remarkable and I regret not thinking of it sooner.
    As for the F/W/G core that I mentioned earlier I tried literally tons of combinations but in the early stages I had my heart set on an offensive roselia paired with a torkoal and a bulky samurott. All of these changed to the core that I am currently running which, in my opinion, is a solid core that I haven't seen before which garners me loads of surprise ko's.
    The last pokemon on the team has under went the most changes (aside from the fire and water types). currently, because of my startling weakness to haunter when I ran zangoose, I chose, like so many others, to use a bulky skuntank as glue for the team and it is what I have stuck with as a way to deal with the psychic/ ghosts of the tier.
    This leaves me with the final product that I am showing to you guys.


    -The Team-

    [​IMG]
    @Eviolite
    Adamant; 98 HP/ 248 Atk./ 162 Spe.
    Toxic/ Shift Gear/ Wild Charge/ Gear Grind
    Klang is essentially the reason this team was built in the first place. It is crazy how well this thing handles the meta, and how many threats common it checks and sets up on. Crazier than this, though, is the fact that I never see this guy. Klang is a fantastic bulky pivot that doubles as a sweeper late game that can actually beat alomomola if its healthy enough, is immune to toxic, and doesn't give two fanny farts that skuntank gets STAB priority.
    Though he is technically a sweeper, he rarely wins me a game through setting up which is why I have opted for toxic over return as a means to scout and wear down his counters. The rest of the moves should be self explanatory and warrant no real mention except for, perhaps, wildcharge over return when I'm not running a wish user. I take wildcharge as a way to beat alomomola faster giving him less chances to burn me, but also as a means to potentially cripple a water type switch in expecting a gear grind. He is more valuable by virtue of his fantastic bulk and useful resistances to some of the more tricky to deal with types like dark and poison.

    Its not all sunshine and rainbows for Klang, though. While he is a fantastic pivot and a good bulky attacker... he is a fairly lousy sweeper by himself without significant softening of its counters. Weezing, for example, was a complete stop to this set, which is largely why I went with a CM Musharna partner. At the end of the day Klang has been solid and I'm so glad that I chose to give this poke a try.

    [​IMG]

    @Leftovers
    Calm; 252 Hp/ 252 Sp. Def./ 4 Sp. Atk.
    Thunder Wave/ Whirlwind/ Heal Bell/ Psychic

    Grumpig is my replacement for what used to be Musharna and I am all too happy with the switch. I had long ago given up on Mush as a CM sweeper when I realized how badly my team was wanting a Heal Bell user. I tried Gardevoir up until I remembered that Grumpig got Thick Fat and could phase and so our love affair began.Grumpig, much like Klang and really any other member of the team, is a solid pivot to another pokemon on the team. Grumpig is my cleric and phazer as well as my "oh no" button. His set is fairly straight forward, but very effective in that it accomplishes nearly everything I could ask of it to do in 4 moves.

    First and foremost, Heal Bell provides much needed cleric support for a team that has a game plan which hinges on squeezing out as much use from each poke as I can get. Thunderwave is my next move and is my go to panic button against faster, frailer sweepers that I would be unable to beat otherwise. Whirlwind allows me to get rid of an opposing pokemons subs or stat boosts or just to rack up SR damage should I make a good prediction. Psychic is the final move and allows it to still defeat Weezing for Klang as well as a general STAB move of choice.

    [​IMG]
    @Eviolite
    Bold; 252 HP/ 252 Def./ 4 Sp. Atk
    Rest/ Clear Smog/ Ice Beam/ Scald
    This is one of the spots on the team that underwent almost constant change, but I think I finally was able to find the keeper. Seadra as a bulky water is questionable. It gains no useful dual STAB, has admittedly poor support options, and has a predictable move pool which is ordinarily something I despise. That being said, Seadra is easily one of the bulkiest water types in the tier and about 5x more useful than Alomomola ever dreamed of being offensively and that is why it got the nod over the water typed wish passer. At the end of the day, my team cannot afford to give grass types free switch- in's and seadra is there to make sure that doesn't happen which is pretty much the sole reason for its use over arguably more useful options. What it lacks in versatility and utillity it makes up for with sheer bulk coupled with an offensive presence.

    Seadra is a fantastic back up check to the flying types that threaten the tier and compliments tangela in a solid bulky back bone for the team. Clear smog + ice beam is an answer to bulk up braviary and its shenanigans as well as clear smog + Scald allowing me to beat almost any other physical set up sweeper without too much trouble. Rest is simply there because I wanted a way for Seadra to heal. Its a crucial pivot for the team and should it become too weak too quickly I could be in loads of trouble. Grumpig is a fantastic cleric that finds many opportunities in a match to Heal Bell so I rarely catch myself regretting the move.
    Seadra is a fairly new addition to this team, but much like Grumpig, has quickly grown on me because of how well it fit the desired function. I hate that it cannot provide better and more interesting support options, but have totally made peace with that thanks to its fantastic bulk and reasonably powered ice beam that can at least damage 0/ 0 ludicolos on a switch.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]@Leftovers
    Bold; 252 Hp/ 252 Def./ 4 Sp. Atk.
    Recover/ Stealth Rock/ Hidden Power Rock/ Lava Plume

    This is the pokemon that I imagine will cause me some grief in the reviews. And I will admit that this poke is questionable at a glance. However, this poke serves a VERY specific niche in that it is a fire type with access to recover, SR, and is resistant to normal types. Add all of these qualities to possessing flame body and you have a just enough to offer to warrant on of the worst type combinations in pokemon.

    As previously mentioned Magcargo was initially tried just because it was a fire type that could use SR, a role that had previously been held by camerupt to not so appealing results. I really needed a normal resist, like REALLY needed on. Braviary and Swellow were nigh impossible to deal with forever and my only real answer to them was to let my sweeper take repeated hits. Magcargo was just the niche band aid that I needed. It can take gut boosted facades, choice locked flying moves, and wall Swellow for days which is something that torkoal cannot do. Its also worth noting that Flame Body is ridiculously helpful.

    There really isn't too much to say about this pokemon. I wont like I was initially skeptical when I tried out Magcargo, but I can't imagine using another fire type for this team.

    [​IMG]
    @Eviolite
    Modest; 224 HP/ 252 Sp. Atk./ 32 Spe.

    Sleep Poweder/ Leech Seed/ Hp Rock/ Leaf Storm
    Tangela has proven to be probably my favorite set. It eventually replaced Roselia after I realized that it was SOOOO much more bulky physically and had the same base special attack. Thanks to its huge bulk and Regenerator this pokemon can come in for days and cause disruption and frustration for my opponent. While the first time it switches in tend to be focused on incapacitating an opposing pokemon, this thing will generally net me one or two clean ko's in a fight just from sheer surprise value.

    Thanks to its strong leafstorm and a useful coverage option, this poke swerves as a great lure to opposing fire types such as charizard and torkoal as well as flyers like braviary. While it has two moves dedicated to offensive momentum, this pokemon also has a wonderful knack for causing switches to rack up some free residual damage in the form of sleep powder and leech seed. This set allows it to be, essentially, two totally different roles at the same time. If I have a linchpin to this team it is probably tangela. It completely covers the ground weakness sported by magcargo and can come in on most non boosted physical attacks. Also, and very importantly, this version of tangela isn't a totally free switch in to ludicolo who can otherwise wreck havoc on this team if allowed a switch in and a turn of set up.

    This pokemon has completed the bulky F/W/G core that I had wanted and I have no real complaints worth mentioning. They perform their job admirably and mesh very well with one another and this is mostly due to tangela's fantastic bulk coupled with regenerator.

    [​IMG]
    @Black Sludge
    Careful; 252 HP/ 252 Sp. Def./ 4 Atk.

    Taunt/ Poison Jab/ Pursuit/ Sucker Punch

    This is the final pokemon on the team, and is sort of the equivalent to 4 move slot syndrome on this team. I can just never manage to find a pokemon that fits overly well into what I already have going on. Ultimately, I needed a way to execute a paralyzed Ludicolo (or I can sucker punch the no paralyzed ones) and a way to deal with the psychics types in the tier as well as Haunter all while giving me a priority move. While for the longest time this spot had been held by zangoose, it just lacked the necessary speed to kill some important threats and about the only move it can take well is tackle.

    That being said, while skuntank patches some more glaring weaknesses in the team he has also robbed me of my best broom for the late game (since Klang is so much more often used as a regular bulky steel type) AND the only strong fighting type move to be found anywhere on this team. Basically, it is by no means a perfect fix and I would love some suggested solutions to this problem. If only Absol were still in the tier it would be perfect, like fits like a glove perfect, but I'm sure that people in Hell want ice water and they aren't getting that either. All in all, Skuntank does his job okay just because it is skuntank, aka the duct tape of nu. It could be doing its job worse, but I just have a feeling something could be doing its job better.


    -Conclusion-
    Well, there is the team guys. I hope it wasn't overly lengthy and I did try to be concise with why I chose every pokemon that I did because I know some of the choices are unorthodox. Mostly, this plays like a stall team that hits hard if I was forced to describe it to someone who has never seen it used and I love how well it does this. Weather teams are an absolute nightmare for me, but I can and have played around most of them. Ludicolo is really the prime offender in the weather fights and is just generally a nuisance for the team no matter what set it runs.

    While it doesn't have a spot on the ladder, I believe that is more due to my lack of interest in laddering and my than the actual quality of the team. Once I hash out the last pokemon I would like to make a new account just to see how far the team can get me. Right now I sit at ~1650 but I only gain or lose points of about 4 whether I win or lose so making a dent in the ladder on my test name isn't going to be happening.

    Okay, well thanks for the time and let me know what you think guys.
  2. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    klang / sdef grumpig / def seadra / magcargo / spa tangela / sdef skuntank

    your team is horribly weak to both standard sawsbuck and choice band sawk. the former can easily come in on your tangela then proceed to hit everything hard for a 1-2HKO. the latter scores a 1-2HKO on all your members too, which means that when it's in safely, something's going to be sacrificed.

    i think the best fix here is to go with standard tangela with hidden power ice. you absolutely need max defense and hp to tank hits from sawk and sawsbuck comfortably. hidden power ice also scores a 2HKO on sawsbuck, meaning that it won't be doing much if you nail it on the switch.

    next, what does seadra help you with? a bulky water-type cannot capitalize on its typing, because anything it resists usually hits from the special side in NU, and a majority of the physical attackers (sawk, zangoose, braviary, and so much more) are still able to get clean 2HKOs on you.

    also, seadra's a pretty poor check to substitute + bulk up braviary:
    Show Hide
    0SpAtk Sniper Seadra (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/240SpDef Leftovers Braviary (+SpDef): 28% - 33% (114 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    0Atk +1 Braviary (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Seadra (+Def): 36% - 43% (115 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    yeah clear smog keeps it from setting up, but there's no way for seadra to do significant damage to braviary while it can just use roost. additionally, braviary will eventually force seadra into rest. by then, it's pretty much useless.


    if you really like using seadra for some reason, i would advise running toxic somewhere on its moveset so that it's not a sitting duck against water-type pokemon like samurott or ludicolo. however, i'm going to recommend something else; you keep mentioning how you want to apply offensive pressure and not allow grass-types to switch in (seadra can't do this with uninvested special attack by the way). therefore, why not just use special samurott? it achieves just that by being a powerful wallbreaker in just three attacks, meaning that it can save its final moveslot for taunt or megahorn to stop things from setting up or to nail ludicolo on the switch, respectively.

    now, i can see you want a fire / water / grass core, but honestly it just doesn't really work out that well with what's given so far. magcargo's overall typing is just poor; there's no way it's taking stronger grass-type attacks (mostly hitting on magcargo's weaker special defense stat), and you already have stuff like klang and skuntank to take advantage of them. therefore, it really doesn't offer anything aside from recover, which doesn't really outweigh its cons (such as getting OHKO'd by nearly all stealth rock setters) at all. regirock is good enough, because it has insane bulk that allows it to take a majority of physical hits and retaliate accordingly. yeah it doesn't have reliable recovery, but drain punch works out nicely; if it comes in safely with decent health against something like zangoose or kangaskhan, it can tank a hit and drain punch for a good chunk of hp back.

    finally, i would suggest replacing skuntank for choice scarf rotom-s for several reasons. for one, you already have psychic-type checks in klang and grumpig, so you'll be keeping many psychic-types at bay regardless. second of all, you're horribly weak to gorebyss should grumpig even be slightly weakened, so having a rotom-s to revenge kill a +2 gorebyss or carracosta is good to have in an emergency. rotom-s also resists fighting, making it a secondary check to sawk or gurdurr if tangela can't handle them anymore. if you think the loss in skuntank makes it much harder to deal with musharna or some other bulky calm mind psychic-type, rotom-s can still at least offer trick to lock them into a move, making those pokemon a non-threat to your other psychic-type resists.

    summary:
    klang / sdef grumpig / special samurott def seadra / regirock magcargo / standard defensive spa tangela / choice scarf rotom-s sdef skuntank


    Show Hide
    [​IMG] Tangela @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Leech Seed
    - Synthesis / Sleep Powder
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    [​IMG] Samurott @ Life Orb
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Megahorn / Taunt

    [​IMG] Regirock @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Drain Punch
    - Ice Punch

    [​IMG] Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Air Slash
    - Trick
  3. FLCL

    FLCL
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    ium already made some excellent changes, so i'll just add on by saying that klang should be running a spread of 100hp/248 atk/160 spd, since your current spread is wasting a point in hp.
  4. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Klang / Grumpig / Seadra / Magcargo / Tangela / Skuntank


    First of all, I agree completely with ium's suggestion of changing Tangela to a standard special defensive set. This allows you to cover Sawsbuck and Sawk, who are both huge threats to your team right now. The rest of the suggestions I'm going to make are going to assume you have defensive Tangela. Offensive Tangela really isn't that good right now, a much better bulky offensive Grass-type would be Exeggutor. However, you really need the bulk that Tangela provides.


    Now when I look at your team, its clearly bulky offense, but some of the sets really aren't that good, particularly Seadra. I've used Seadra a lot, and through my testing I found that an offensive SubDisable set works very well. The set that I like is:

    Seadra @ Eviolite
    Trait: Poison Point
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald / Hydro Pump

    This set is arguably a better answer to subBU Braviary than your set, as it can disable any of its attacks. Disabling Bulk Up or Brave Bird would be best, but even disabling Roost will give you an advantage! This set is not nearly as bulky, but plays to the strengths Seadra has over Alomomola. Particularly better offenses, Speed, and Disable. I don't think a super defensive Seadra is important to your team, with Tangela tanking attacks.

    Basically what I did here was swap around Tangela and Seadra's roles. Tangela is more of a wall now, with Seadra being a cool bulky pivot.


    Magcargo is a mon I haven't played much with, so I'm not completely sure if it needs to be replaced. If you ever find Magcargo not working, try using Probopass over it. Probopass is much bulkier, has Volt Switch to allow you to scout easier. Magcargo's defensive typing is terrble, Probopass' is much better. This suggestion is definitely not needed to make this team work, just something to consider.


    tl;dr (open)

    Defensive Tangela > Offensive Tangela
    Offensive Seadra > Defensive Seadra
    maybe test Probopass > Magcargo?

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