Balanced Hackmons -ate Clause Vote

[0pr4h]

thank you Lcass4919. Anyways, I am just saying Rayquaza can be replaced by Salamence, (Mega Salamence can also be used without a mega stone if it is in the mega form in team builder). My point about Mega Salamence, was not about being almost as good as mega Ray. It is the fact that if something comes along to replace Ray, the strategy will not be stopped. I have actually had more success with Mega Pinsir and Mega Salamence than Rayquaza simply because I could use Speed Boost + Fake-out on their base forms, then Spore, then Belly Drum, then Extreme Speed to outpace a Mega Rayquaza who is limited to 1 ability. In previous posts of other threads I also mentioned the power of Prankster Gardevoir who uses Spore, Shell Smash on the switch, and Mega Evolve as it uses Boom Burst or Stored Power because of the raw strength, and utility of having 2 abilties combined.

Personally, I don't find Mega Ray fast enough, so I use a lead Aerodactyl with Spore, Belly Drum, and Extreme Speed and Diamond Storm so I don't rely on Fake-out or Speed Boost to outpace Rayquaza. The only reason I mentioned any of the Pokemon above, is because alot of them are not overused, and cannot be used properly without the right team (support), so in a sense limiting teams to only 1 ate user seems to stop a strategy, not just an over-powered threat.
A poll option would be more fit if it limited -Ate abilities to Pokemon with a Max Attack or Special Attack, similar to the Mega REVOLUTION thread that limits users to only 110 HP or less for mega evolution. If we based the -Ate abilities off of Attack, and Special Attack, then it would better stop a team from being overpowered, without hindering weaker Pokemon from being able to be used alongside other teammates.

I.e. your reactions to my Salamence example tell me: We can handle Salamence because it is so much weaker than Rayquaza, so if that's the case, why punish the team if some threats aren't overpowered? If I want an Aerilate Mega Aerodactyl, and Aerilate Mega Salamence on my team (since they are weaker than Rayquaza), why not just limit the users instead of limiting the strategy (using more than 1 per team)?

Again, Mega Revolution already set a precedent for limiting items (mega stones) based on stats, why can't we limit abilities for the same reason, if anything, it will make Rank C or lower Pokemon more viable, and put the Balance back into Balanced Hackmons. Increasing the overall usability of Pokemon by finding the next best one down the line seems appropriate.

 

[Perseu]

Lol. I remember when BH was created... It was just Hackmons with a few modifications to not be so centralized, like banning wonderguard and other things. Now, I can only think how the state intervention in economy is similar to this. The state forces the market to do what he whants, and it breaks or become a totaly different thing of what it used to be... The same applies here: the EVs clause, and now this.

 

[Lcass4919]

Lol. I remember when BH was created... It was just Hackmons with a few modifications to not be so centralized, like banning wonderguard and other things. Now, I can only think how the state intervention in economy is similar to this. The state forces the market to do what he whants, and it breaks or become a totaly different thing of what it used to be... The same applies here: the EVs clause, and now this.

your post makes no sense tbh(or im seeing it wrong). no offense, but sounds like you are very ignorant to the facts that bh is going through. it SOUNDS like you are blaming us for verbatim's choices for the ev limit, which is completely ignorant and false.

if you are going to compare something like bh to an economy, its completely false, and it would be much better described as a "king" (king being gamefreak) to a random baker in the kingdom-or something, work with me here, im not the most educated on medieval times, and god knows im not going to study it just to prove a point. see, the baker(verbatim) is selling various stuff in his market (balanced hackmons in general) and one of his best selling items was his croissant rolls (yum-but i digress this is portrayed as the ev limit) now, the king dislikes croissant rolls, and decides that croissant rolls will be banned from his kingdom. and as you could expect, it will directly affect the bakers sales and fanbase, and thus his customers demand he makes all his other items better which the baker might not be able to do, and will put them all in the state of anger, and verbatim cant do anything about it because the "king" doesn't care.

what im saying is, the "EV's clause" you mentioned doesn't exist, and it was due to game freaks decision of limiting it that forced BH into the state it is now(bh strictly applies "anything goes" but only in the boundaries of the games limits). if what you implied is what i think you implied, you should probably educate yourself before you go off and attack us for something we didn't take any part in doing.

and for THIS clause its mainly because many people find -ate to be annoyingly powerful, and verbatim would like to keep this metagame as balanced as possible.

i feel bad for posting another rude comment in a row, but you seem to be blaming us for this and that, when in reality, its just something we had no control over. us, the community, or verbatim, the leader.

 

[Uselesscrab]

This isn't directly related to the vote, but it is very relevant to the issue of -ates in general. I believe we should continue to allow Pinsirite, Gardevoirite, and Salamencite even if -ates are restricted, which it appears they will be. None is too easily abused, since they all have subpar stats for BH and can't use extra items like Plates or Life Orb, and I tend to like the creativity that manual mega evolving strategies foster. (See: Whatwasthatnoise's Charizard, though that did have its fair share of problems.)

(I know a lot of people think these banned-ability mega stones should themselves be banned for consistency's sake, but that's a complicated, ultimately pretty irrelevant debate.)

 

[verbatim]

I'd need to check, but they way an x per team limit would work should check at the teambuilding phase, and not stop Uselesscrab's idea from working since they wouldn't have the ability when you hit find a battle.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I'd need to check, but they way an x per team limit would work should check at the teambuilding phase, and not stop Uselesscrab's idea from working since they wouldn't have the ability when you hit find a battle.

Yeah, I think it would as well. I suggest that we keep it that way.

 

[Lcass4919]

I'd need to check, but they way an x per team limit would work should check at the teambuilding phase, and not stop Uselesscrab's idea from working since they wouldn't have the ability when you hit find a battle.

uselesscrab's point (as he points out above) is that he wants that to remain(since that is what is currently happening). allthough im no coder, so this next bit is practically lcass' "logical second grade" thinking, in which if you feel like its broken, im guessing it could be possible to restrict the specific stones along with the abilities in the clause, and you wouldn't have to complicate/include the details in the clause, considering it SHOULD be common knowledge that "if something is banned, its obviously banned in all possible instances" however again, im no coder, so idk.

however, with that said, other then "consistancy sake", doing so would be partially pointless considering shadow tag/parental bond(both being quite a bit cheaper imo due to utility, even with the extra power the megates get) i wouldn't even really consider VIABLE in the tier due to their restrictions.

 

[Marxman]

I definitely think a "-ate + STAB clause" is the best course of action, as non-STAB -ates, while powerful (as seen by MewtwoX), aren't format-warping to the insane degree that Aerilate MegaRay is.

Since that's not an option, I will vote to simply ban the abilities outright. I don't believe limiting you to 1 -ate user per team really does much to affect the current metagame, which is heavily warped by Aerilate MegaRay. If we're thinking we may ban MegaRay, then 1 -ate user per team seems just fine to me. Otherwise, I don't see how this clause will affect the metagame in any significant way. It will still be dominated by Aerilate MegaRay and you'll still need a dedicated answer to it.

 

[Zewwok]

I definitely think a "-ate + STAB clause" is the best course of action, as non-STAB -ates, while powerful (as seen by MewtwoX), aren't format-warping to the insane degree that Aerilate MegaRay is.

Since that's not an option, I will vote to simply ban the abilities outright. I don't believe limiting you to 1 -ate user per team really does much to affect the current metagame, which is heavily warped by Aerilate MegaRay. If we're thinking we may ban MegaRay, then 1 -ate user per team seems just fine to me. Otherwise, I don't see how this clause will affect the metagame in any significant way. It will still be dominated by Aerilate MegaRay and you'll still need a dedicated answer to it.

While that is true, what a 1 -ilate ban per team would do is enable that dedicated answer to actually work, as people have proven that counters exist (Think Flints Regirock set, soundproof steels or sturdyninja) rather than just crumble under the repeated stress of these attackers. This would reduce the need to over prepare for these threats, significantly helping the meta be rid of the centralisation.

I agree that a STAB ban would be much more effective, but I believe the 1 per team will do the job.

 

[verbatim]

No one reached 50, the poll will close Sunday evening

 

[dhelmise]

verbatim, I think that there needs to be a better name than -Ate clause

 

[Morningstar]

verbatim, I think that there needs to be a better name than -Ate clause

Agreed, lest people make the mistake of assuming Levitate and Regenerate are banned. I propose the wordy "Type-Change ability clause"

 

[dhelmise]

Agreed, lest people make the mistake of assuming Levitate and Regenerate are banned. I propose the wordy "Type-Change ability clause"

Yeah, I think it should be something of the sort, or at least 'STABility Clause' (STAB Abilities, or something of the sort.)

 

[Slayer95]

What about making it an extension of the Ability Clause?
Naming problem fixed.

 

[dhelmise]

What about making it an extension of the Ability Clause?
Naming problem fixed.

no pls

 

[Lcass4919]

verbatim, I think that there needs to be a better name than -Ate clause

Agreed, lest people make the mistake of assuming Levitate and Regenerate are banned. I propose the wordy "Type-Change ability clause"

verbatim has allready said he has no intention on calling it the "ate" clause. we only call it that due to 99% of us knowing what it stands for, since otherwise you really shouldn't be voting in this until you do lol. in the actual suspect discussion thread (which imo should be bolded or something so people dont just waltz in here confused), we had a very lengthy discussion on the limitation of "ate" speficicaly isolating refridge, aerialate, and pixilate. we called the 3 abilities "ate" not because of ALL abilities that share the name do the same thing, but that it was the quickest way we could group them togeather without relying on a super complex naming scheme like "the refraerixate". also "Type-Change ability clause" is also very very breif, as it also would classify protean in its clutches (which although broken, brings up your exact argument for changing the name in the first place) and please please please please please, if you dont know exactly what this clause is applying too, read about it in the suspect discussion thread pretty sure that is the reason verbatim made it for us. and also stability is also brief due to it also applying stuff like protean and adaptability.

oh...and he stated that the name will probably come at the end of the suspect so you should save your name ideas for then.

What about making it an extension of the Ability Clause?
Naming problem fixed.

wouldn't that just complicate the ability clause by making it into a "complex ban" in that regard? im guessing turning it into a "2 of each ability except for refridge, aerialate, and pixilate which is limited to 1 per team" would turn verbatim off.

 

[Slayer95]

no pls

It doesn't get any better than puns.
And naming a formal competitive clause after a pun is shitty imo :|

wouldn't that just complicate the ability clause by making it into a "complex ban" in that regard? im guessing turning it into a "2 of each ability except for refridge, aerialate, and pixilate which is limited to 1 per team" would turn verbatim off.

Ability Clause is already a complex ban. The -ate clause has the same spirit as the Ability Clause: i.e. prevent spamming an ability, so it would fit it.

 

[Lcass4919]

Ability Clause is already a complex ban. The -ate clause has the same spirit as the Ability Clause: i.e. prevent spamming an ability, so it would fit it.

valid point. i sit corrected.

 

[EV]

Edited some posts. This is not the place to discuss anything other than the proposals verbatim has listed. Thanks!

 

[Lcass4919]

Edited some posts. This is not the place to discuss anything other than the proposals verbatim has listed. Thanks!

yeah, i understand, my last post was really illogical of me lol, and i am kind of glad you decided to moderate it (as you should). my apologies.

speaking of which: as of now, i think all i "benefit" from doing in this debate is constantly rehash my opinions and bash others opinions, so i think its safe to say i am done commenting in this thread since i no longer bring worthwhile arguments. so happy debating people. lol. and i hope justice is served on the bh-famed refraerixilate! (honestly, that name kind of sticks with me now)

 

[Wimblesaurus]

The -ate abilities are such an albatross for BH and always have been, but really only because of Boomburst and ESpeed in conjunction with Fridge Kyurem and most recently and especially Aerilate Mega Ray.

It's never been too difficult to manage just one of these guys without having to resort to running unreliable gimmicky shit like Turdinja, but trying to get a regular, wholesome team through a gauntlet of them is often an exercise in futility.

There's plenty less broken uses for these abilities than sticking them on a team of six ridiculous offensive titans with STAB, so it seems like the best compromise is to implement the one-per-team option as the Denormalizing Ability Clause (or less ideally a name not suggested by me).

 

[Lcass4919]

HOORAY FOR LYING. i guess i meant to say i'm done posting "your opinion sux" comments, more so then actually stopping,

...as the Denormalizing Ability Clause (or less ideally a name not suggested by me).

selfishness to the extreeeeeeeeeme. no but seriously, i do find that the name (although would confuse some blind people with normalize) would make sense imo, and i cant think of any stray abilities that can fall into the "Denormalize" catigory (aka, turning a typing away from normal type)

something else i thought about, is that when it all comes down to it, extremespeed isn't really the problem with -ates. Usually fake out is the move that causes problems. its such a crazy move, that practically gives free ~50 base damage on the get-go every time it switches in and forces kings shield on many sweepers. and on top of that, the move scares out most pokemon then even BOOMBURST does, some walls can handle boomburst, but no sweeper can handle a fake out without kings shield or massive defense. seriously, try to run rayquaza without fake out and see how much worse it is. idk, i see so many people talking about extremespeed, when half the time i barely even USE it on my ate user.

 

[Wimblesaurus]

HOORAY FOR LYING. i guess i meant to say i'm done posting "your opinion sux" comments, more so then actually stopping,


selfishness to the extreeeeeeeeeme. no but seriously, i do find that the name (although would confuse some blind people with normalize) would make sense imo, and i cant think of any stray abilities that can fall into the "Denormalize" catigory (aka, turning a typing away from normal type)

something else i thought about, is that when it all comes down to it, extremespeed isn't really the problem with -ates. Usually fake out is the move that causes problems. its such a crazy move, that practically gives free ~50 base damage on the get-go every time it switches in and forces kings shield on many sweepers. and on top of that, the move scares out most pokemon then even BOOMBURST does, some walls can handle boomburst, but no sweeper can handle a fake out without kings shield or massive defense. seriously, try to run rayquaza without fake out and see how much worse it is. idk, i see so many people talking about extremespeed, when half the time i barely even USE it on my ate user.

Fake Out's definitely scary too, but Extreme Speed can keep it from being threatened out by priority users after the first turn, and the gulf in power between a 78 BP move and a 156 BP move can definitely make the difference against bulkier revenge killers and sweepers.

Boomburst also makes it so that even if you've prepared for the advent of the ridiculous priority monster by getting a sub up, you need enough bulk to take a 273 BP attack or enough power and speed/priority to kill it before it uses it.

They're all broken with the -ate abilities individually, but in tandem there's really no quarter for the opponent unless they have out a dedicated check/counter.

 

[Lcass4919]

Fake Out's definitely scary too, but Extreme Speed can keep it from being threatened out by priority users after the first turn, and the gulf in power between a 97.5 BP move and a 156 BP move can definitely make the difference against bulkier revenge killers and sweepers.

Boomburst also makes it so that even if you've prepared for the advent of the ridiculous priority monster by getting a sub up, you need enough bulk to take a 273 BP attack or enough power and speed/priority to kill it before it uses it.

They're all broken with the -ate abilities individually, but in tandem there's really no quarter for the opponent unless they have out a dedicated check/counter.

yeah, i kinda phrased that horribly. what i meant to say is that fake out is probably the "slightly more threatening" out of the three, dispite all being VERY threatening themselves. its just that initial damage they cant avoid that can turn offensive/defensive checks into jokes.

 

[Xmas121]

Well, since it appears that it's about to be decided that the ban will be 1 ate per team (according to the poll above), how will the meta react? I personally think that Hyper Offense will flourish under the ban, especially with Refrigerate and Pixilate gone - The Latis are back! As another question, what will we name the ban? the revival of stall?