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Balanced Hackmons Evasion Clause Vote
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those all are also good moves pros use.. and they don't have 100% accuracy...high jump kick is a bit too risky
He was saying skilled player dont use luck i was saying you can use 100% accuracy moves all you want but luck is still a part of the game you're just helping to prove my point, thank you.
I was simply saying that skilled players don't just use 100% accurate moves like you said.
The problem with evasion however, is the over reliance on it. The majority of people using evasion rely on luck to win. Relying on luck means that it can give a bad representation of how good a player is at the meta. For example, (this is just an example, I am in no way saying that this would actually be done) if a player got to the top ten because they used an entire team of Deoxis-As with the moves minimize, toxic, and will o wisp, because nothing ever hit them, would you think that they are skilled? Just because luck is a part of the game, does not mean that solely relying on luck is skillful. As much as I'd love to play a meta where evasion isn't banned, and nobody will be abusing it, but that unfortunately won't be happening any time soon.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
...and?
luck is a main component of the metagame, yes. sometimes you just miss that powerful attack when you need it most, or get the most unluckiest crit in the world...but evasion isnt in the same boat. evasion isn't "oh man, rng failed me" its "rng bless me with your hax so i can win" see, your arguement is " if you dont like evasion run prankster" well, in that logic, i say we unban wonderguard and force everyone to run mold breaker...otherwise tough luck friend. see evasion isn't like wonder guard. its not "a broken ability that forces many pokemon to not be able to hit it barring a few instances" its "a broken setup move that forces many pokemon to not be able to hit it barring 3 instances that can be used on every broken set imaginable to make it worse" heres the game changer though, wonderguard actually has plenty ways around it with status, curse, super effective moves, gastro acid, mold breaker, itself (usually not possible, but in this scenario, wonderguard CAN counter itself) so many ways to get around it, all of which can be viable. its not like shadow tag, huge power, and the like are helping beat wonder guard in hackmons. evasion...has...3. all of which can be easily outpowered/outplayed by simple sweepers, bouncers, substitute sweepers, etc etc. evasion isn't a ability, nor is it limited to specific pokemon. it is an attack that can be put on ANY pokemon.
second off, telling me that my team is flawed because i don't run the ONE thing viable in this meta that guaranteed stops a hax based attack from shredding the entire tier apart is just so stupid,
and who cares in this suspect about the #1 player using prankster, nobody has said "prankster has no use outside countering minimize" in fact, most of us agreed to the contrary, were saying "one counter doesn't justify keeping it".
lastly,i never even said "skilled players dont use luck" and its not like i said "my team is soo good because i abuse low accuracy moves" you are treating me like i'm some sort of rookie, which i'm far from it. like...that wasn't even close to what i was implying. are you even listening to any of us? .-. i was saying abusing luck via rng isn't "skill" or "Fair" in any way.
good grief.
luck is a main component of the metagame, yes. sometimes you just miss that powerful attack when you need it most, or get the most unluckiest crit in the world...but evasion isnt in the same boat. evasion isn't "oh man, rng failed me" its "rng bless me with your hax so i can win" see, your arguement is " if you dont like evasion run prankster" well, in that logic, i say we unban wonderguard and force everyone to run mold breaker...otherwise tough luck friend. see evasion isn't like wonder guard. its not "a broken ability that forces many pokemon to not be able to hit it barring a few instances" its "a broken setup move that forces many pokemon to not be able to hit it barring 3 instances that can be used on every broken set imaginable to make it worse" heres the game changer though, wonderguard actually has plenty ways around it with status, curse, super effective moves, gastro acid, mold breaker, itself (usually not possible, but in this scenario, wonderguard CAN counter itself) so many ways to get around it, all of which can be viable. its not like shadow tag, huge power, and the like are helping beat wonder guard in hackmons. evasion...has...3. all of which can be easily outpowered/outplayed by simple sweepers, bouncers, substitute sweepers, etc etc. evasion isn't a ability, nor is it limited to specific pokemon. it is an attack that can be put on ANY pokemon.
second off, telling me that my team is flawed because i don't run the ONE thing viable in this meta that guaranteed stops a hax based attack from shredding the entire tier apart is just so stupid,
and who cares in this suspect about the #1 player using prankster, nobody has said "prankster has no use outside countering minimize" in fact, most of us agreed to the contrary, were saying "one counter doesn't justify keeping it".
lastly,i never even said "skilled players dont use luck" and its not like i said "my team is soo good because i abuse low accuracy moves" you are treating me like i'm some sort of rookie, which i'm far from it. like...that wasn't even close to what i was implying. are you even listening to any of us? .-. i was saying abusing luck via rng isn't "skill" or "Fair" in any way.
good grief.
The funny thing is prankster topsy turvy is no counter at all to evasion. A simple sub or magic bounce user blocks off topsy turvy. A semi intelligent player will put up a sub first then boost evasion. And a hydro pump or v-create miss is the unpredictable sort of luck that can happen to either player. Using Evasion is a setup move which purposely raises your chance of a move missing. Not only that its the only set up move that cannot reliably be revenge killed or impostered, the more viable options a offense team will use to protect themselves from set up sweepers. Balanced Hackmons is a meta designed to be competitive and balanced, yet is the only such one to lack an evasion clause. Evasion is universally considered to be uncompetitive and not worth keeping and it should be no different in Balanced Hackmons.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Well I'm sure you're all aware on my views on evasion *cough* it's cancer *cough*
But why I think it's the embodiment of all evil (besides gravel) is a bit more complex than you might think. In Ubers, as you are aware, there is no Evasion Clause. But why, you might be wondering? The answer to your question is simple. The only things that get a real evasion boosting move + Baton Pass are Smeargle and Drifblim, and they're just bad at doing anything else. In Ubers otherwise, you're wasting a moveslot by adding Double Team to it.
So how does this relate to BH? In BH, Smeargle and Drifblim can be any Pokemon. Want a bulky anti-ate with it? Registeel and Mega-Aggron are good ones. Heck, you don't even need to run Simple, but you can run Prankster for juicy priority evasion + substitutes. Minimize isn't nearly as much of a waste of a moveslot compared to Double Team, as well, since it boosts by 2 instead of by 1. Whirlwind can easily be solved by running a Magic Bouncer, Ingrain, or even Suction Cups (one person I fought in a tour actually did this)! Heart Swap is the one counter to it, but if you get taunted/parting shotted out, well rip that idea. Relying on Topsy-Turvy isn't a good idea either, since Substitute (but if you run Infiltrator + Topsy-Turvy you will be worshipped in a conversation forever as our new god). BUT WAIT WHAT ABOUT IMPOSTER + SKILL SWAP? Well I have a niche way to deal with that too! Slap Multitype onto any Pokemon on your team, as Multitype cannot be Skill Swapped. All you need is an Ingrain up and you can boost all day. Unaware is a way to deal with it, I admit, but you most likely aren't going to be running Unaware offense anyways (and if you are I salute you), and that still doesn't get past BrightPowder/Lax Insence! No Guard can bypass this, though, but No Guard can be impostered, Gastro Acid'd, Skill Swap, etc.
tl;dr ban it three times over for good measure. "But what about defog against contrary?" Meh.
But why I think it's the embodiment of all evil (besides gravel) is a bit more complex than you might think. In Ubers, as you are aware, there is no Evasion Clause. But why, you might be wondering? The answer to your question is simple. The only things that get a real evasion boosting move + Baton Pass are Smeargle and Drifblim, and they're just bad at doing anything else. In Ubers otherwise, you're wasting a moveslot by adding Double Team to it.
So how does this relate to BH? In BH, Smeargle and Drifblim can be any Pokemon. Want a bulky anti-ate with it? Registeel and Mega-Aggron are good ones. Heck, you don't even need to run Simple, but you can run Prankster for juicy priority evasion + substitutes. Minimize isn't nearly as much of a waste of a moveslot compared to Double Team, as well, since it boosts by 2 instead of by 1. Whirlwind can easily be solved by running a Magic Bouncer, Ingrain, or even Suction Cups (one person I fought in a tour actually did this)! Heart Swap is the one counter to it, but if you get taunted/parting shotted out, well rip that idea. Relying on Topsy-Turvy isn't a good idea either, since Substitute (but if you run Infiltrator + Topsy-Turvy you will be worshipped in a conversation forever as our new god). BUT WAIT WHAT ABOUT IMPOSTER + SKILL SWAP? Well I have a niche way to deal with that too! Slap Multitype onto any Pokemon on your team, as Multitype cannot be Skill Swapped. All you need is an Ingrain up and you can boost all day. Unaware is a way to deal with it, I admit, but you most likely aren't going to be running Unaware offense anyways (and if you are I salute you), and that still doesn't get past BrightPowder/Lax Insence! No Guard can bypass this, though, but No Guard can be impostered, Gastro Acid'd, Skill Swap, etc.
tl;dr ban it three times over for good measure. "But what about defog against contrary?" Meh.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Ima call your opinion a pathetic over-generalization. Why? You are claiming that because people use moves without 100% accuracy, they are susepting themselves to the same luck based battles evasion causes, therefore we should treat them the same. So somebody who murders somebody should be treated the same as a terrorist, no? Well while that is a little extreme, severity is why we look at them differently.
What is the difference between 80% accuracy and evasion boosting? One is user controlled...its optional...its a choice, and native to the stats of the move in the game. The other, evasion, is an attempt to abuse the luck based aspect of the game in an attempt to win battles without having to worry about the opponent make a good play. In reality, it is only allowing noobs to beat much, much better players due to a completely luck based aspect of a game. User controlled 50/50s with kings shield go into the same category. USER CONTROL. Even other 50/50s that exist are all legitimate because IN BATTLE, YOU CONTROL IT. In battle, with evasion, you cant control it. It isint a user controlled luck based aspect, its an RNG based one. Thats why it needs to get out.
So everybody hates it, but apparently, people are calling for it not to be banned. So its a bad strategy (loses more often), completely luck based, and we do nothing but make the meta more skill based with its banning. We really dont have a good reason not to ban it.
What is the difference between 80% accuracy and evasion boosting? One is user controlled...its optional...its a choice, and native to the stats of the move in the game. The other, evasion, is an attempt to abuse the luck based aspect of the game in an attempt to win battles without having to worry about the opponent make a good play. In reality, it is only allowing noobs to beat much, much better players due to a completely luck based aspect of a game. User controlled 50/50s with kings shield go into the same category. USER CONTROL. Even other 50/50s that exist are all legitimate because IN BATTLE, YOU CONTROL IT. In battle, with evasion, you cant control it. It isint a user controlled luck based aspect, its an RNG based one. Thats why it needs to get out.
So everybody hates it, but apparently, people are calling for it not to be banned. So its a bad strategy (loses more often), completely luck based, and we do nothing but make the meta more skill based with its banning. We really dont have a good reason not to ban it.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
So at the moment I'm laddering with a team based around evasion-passing to prove that evasion is broken, and it's only lost once due to the first instance being terribad. 12-1 W/L so far, and nothing has really been causing me problems outside of No Guard, which I now carry Gastro Acid for.
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