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Discussion in 'OM Archive' started by verbatim, Jul 15, 2013.
I'll reveal it when the voting is done, wouldn't want my alternatives getting banned, right?
Alright. First and foremost, I think it's important that, for now at least, we only remove strategies that attempt to win outside the game. Double Chansey does not do this, and should not be banned.
Second of all, Leppa Berry has genuine competitive applications that do not involve IRL factors. They might not be fun, but they DO win inside the game (i.e. infinite PP for yourself). To my mind, banning Leppa Berry is off the table for this reason. (Protip: If you can't kill, phaze, perish song, knock off, or trick your opponent's Leppa Harvest Shuckle, just concede. This is different from the Dickrachi situation because you WILL actually lose in about 200 turns, regardless of how much time you have).
Rather than trying to anticipate every possible variation of infinite turn traps and then debating whether or not the components of those traps have legitimate applications (Heal Pulse might not, but Pain Split does), I propose that we simply treat all such tactics as timestalling. If someone creates a lock which prevents the battle from progressing, a staff member would be justified in warning the offending player to continue the battle. If he or she does not, ban them.
I agree. Treat it as timestalling. The strategy has a use in PP stalling which is a legitimate strategy. However, if they keep the game from progressing after the PP Stall, then simply treat it case-by-case. If this technique was being used on a larger scale and out of control, then a clause would be necessary.
Personally, I'm against banning Leppa Berry for the sole reason that strategies using Leppa Berry can be effective in winning you the game. Harvest Shuckle is a set geared towards very long games and is gimmicky/trolly, but unless you have Perish Song it effectively guarantees a win for the Shuckle player. This is the fundamental difference between Heal Pulse strategies and Harvest Shuckle strategies - the latter is a strategy built to win (at the cost of a big chunk of time), but the former is a strategy designed to draw out games indefinitely and allow neither player to win.
I would personally rather see all methods of trapping banned than anything on the poll, and not just because of these Heal Pulse strategies - even without Shadow Tag, trapping is still very much a strategy that allows a player to essentially win themselves the game while their opponent is helpless to stop it. Take the Jirachi-Spiritomb-Jirachi example Adrian Marin posted a while back. The user baits their opponent with a Simple Shell Smash Jirachi, then if/when the opponent brings in their Imposter to deal with it, Spiritomb comes in and traps Jirachi with Magnet Pull. The Imposter Jirachi meanwhile, with a moveset of Shell Smash / Aura Sphere / Psychic STAB / ineffective filler (possibly Plate Judgment) is absolutely helpless against Spiritomb while it uses Acupressure until Jirachi runs out of PP and begins to Struggle, at which point Spiritomb passes its boosts to a Prankster Jirachi with Stored Power / Aura Shere / Copycat / Substitute and sweeps through the opponent's team (Unaware? Not when Stored Power is essentially at 400+ BP.)
Our next example is with my old favorite: Magma Storm Deoxys-S. Sure, it's much more benign than Dickrachi and JSJ, but trapping via Magma Storm is still used for one specific reason - to give the user an inherent advantage over their opponent. Once the opponent is trapped, Deoxys can remove its ability and give it a much worse one in No Guard and switch out to a Pokemon that can take advantage of the opponent - whether it was a formerly Mold Breaker Deoxys getting a little hazard-happy or a Contrary Dialga trying to set up, it could be taken advantage of at little cost to the user.
One last example - I onced faced a nasty Hail stall team that revolved around a Truant Delibird using Block, Entrainment, some boosting move and Baton Pass to simultaneously set up and whittle away the opponent's HP with Hail damage. I can't say this is exactly prominent though. On the general subject of trapping, several users have also posted about trapping in the forums for official metagames - one of the biggest issues surrounding Landorus-I (good riddance) and Keldeo is that their counters are usually weak to either SR or Pursuit, and there is strong support for a Dugtrio ban in ADV OU as well.
Now with Pursuit I understand that it's only pseudo-trapping and it doesn't really have any good users in BH, and as a result it might not count, but I honestly believe that all forms of trapping - temprary or permanent - are inherently broken in Balanced Hackmons and should be banned. Regardless of how they are used, they give the user an unfair edge over the opponent to the point of auto-losing or resulting in a draw.
Also, I would like to add that Adrian explained one of his locks that does not require a Leppa Berry. I'm not going to post it, because I promised I wouldn't to get him to tell me. However, I am going to say that this further reinforces the idea that the tactic itself, rather than the component mechanics, should be banned.
Also, in response to Arctic's post, this simply isn't true. Trapping is not broken in Balanced Hackmons. Ways to deal with that Jirachi include Shedinja, another Spiritomb/Sableye, Chansey (assuming a sub wasn't passed), a magic guard focus sash heart swap user, etc. Some of these things aren't used (although Chansey is always good and Shedinja is extremely popular atm) but then again, neither is that strategy. If you truly believe it's broken, I'll be happy to run some test battles against you on the server with the team I used to top the ladder (i.e. not a team designed to beat it specifically).
Adrian's strategy simply means that it's a setup sweeper that you shouldn't count on Chansey for. Think of it this way: if Chansey didn't exist, would that set be broken? It's simply a creative team that packs a very hard counter for the biggest enemy of the average BH sweeper: Chansey
Honestly I see that Deoxys more as set-up fodder than anything else. You might be successful at getting a free turn the first, but a free turn is only really meaningful if you have a giant nuke such as specs Palkia or banded Darmanitan in their respective weathers. For the rest of the game that Deoxys is simply death fodder. The lack of effect a free turn has is also why volturn is almost unseen in BH.
Delibird is completely walled by magic bounce.
Trapping moves are hard countered by phazing, volt switch/u-turn, or simply being able to apply significant enough offensive pressure onto the opponent. Everything other than fire spin and friends can add magic bounce to that list.
Okay, it's clear that the options presented in the poll are insufficient.
Here are possibilities I'm considering:
- Ban Leppa+Harvest, Leppa+Recycle, and Harvest+Entrainment
This is my preferred solution.
As far as I am currently aware, this is enough to stop any infinite Struggle strategy from being possible against the majority of teams (I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure this covers it) (and yes, Fool's Mate is still possible but no common team should fall for it).
This also has a side effect of stopping most other infinite loops, which is desirable and I doubt anyone will object.
This also has a side effect of stopping most infinite PP stalling strategies, which is more controversial and I can understand someone objecting to. I personally would like to see infinite PP stalling out of the game anyway; I like most stall but PP stall is just so slow and boring and not fun for either player... this is a good application of the "turns newcomers off the game."
The other option to keep infinite PP stalling in the game is to ban all methods of infinitely healing the opponent:
- Ban Heal Pulse, Pain Split, and Harvest+Entrainment
I don't think anyone thinks this is a good idea, though, because it bans Pain Split, which is used in much more legit strategies than infinite PP stall.
- Clause it: 16 Struggles in a row is now an automatic draw
This is probably the simplest solution.
It works, but I wanted to take the opportunity to ban infinite PP stall anyway. :|
The other problem is, of course, that this strategy will result in a draw, which isn't a very strong punishment. It prevents people from using the strategy to infinite-stall-troll, but it doesn't strongly discourage the strategy from being used, and it can still turn newcomers off.
Which leads to the alternative clause:
- Clause it: 16 Struggles in a row is now an automatic win
This is pretty funny, and in practice if you can Struggle 16 times without fainting, your opponent's not playing very well anyway: without your opponent's help, the main strategy here is Sun+Harvest+Sitrus, but to KO you before you can Struggle 16 times, your opponent only needs to deal 50% maxhp in 15 turns. Which, if they can't... they deserve to lose anyway.
By the way, in case it wasn't clear, things we aren't considering:
- Treat it like timerstalling, call a mod to force a tie
The timerstalling rule is already somewhat controversial, and in general mods are instructed to err on the side of "not guilty of timerstalling".
Calling a mod should not be a game mechanic, because very few players are aware that it's even a possibility. So this has a side effect of giving an advantage to players who know that calling a mod is an option. I don't want that specific kind of meta-knowledge to be relevant in a game.
Also, since most players don't know calling a mod is an option (and it's not like the staller's going to suggest it), it doesn't solve the main problem, anyway. And if you think it's a good idea, you might as well automate it by clausing it.
Harvest also needs to be banned with skill swap, though otherwise this seems like it would work.
How about we just dont ban anything, save Zarel some time. So if you get caught in an endless stall war a mod can just come and force tie right away, boom done. Plain and simple, no extra work needs to be done. Make a list off all the ways that you could go into endless stall and if your in game scenario is on that list then force tie. So no one can get around anything with specific bans and stuff. I think that's pretty easy and we can agree is fair. No one can argue about it. If someone makes something new and weird not on the list the mod can just force tie and then that strategy will be added. So yeah think that about raps things up hah
And im aware Zarel doesnt like this idea, I just think that its best and easiest :p
PS I think banning trapping is completely unfair. I came to this meta to display creativity and see other creative sets. That is what I enjoy doing and that is what makes things fun for me. Just because you get swept by a gimmick dosent mean it should be banned. That is part of the fun of BH. Someone thought up that idea and brought it to life and that is the beauty of BH in the first place. This whole thread is actually kind of lame to be honest. Just because people want to think outside the box and make things that are different that needs to be punished? I know the infinite game strategy is extremely lame and not fun at all. I would never use it because thats not my style but if you get caught then you get caught, you say GG my friend and you move on. Then you adapt and you beat it the next time. I dont really see why people cant do that, everyone always likes to sit and complain about things being op and this and that rather then just adapting and beating it. Thats the whole damn point of the game in general hah if you lose then you change to better yourself. Just like in life. Like we cant knitpick and ban all this stuff. Its not broken because it can be avoided. So i know you are gunna ban whatever in the end. Im just trying to say that maybe everyone should just think about that
Sigh..... look at the uproar I have caused. Lol I never imagined it would turn into two different threads trying to resolve the matter... I feel special (infamous now). However, honestly I was using this set as a joke. I dont really care anymore though ban it if you want, it doesnt fancy my interests any longer.
-Shout outs to Adrain for being a co-developer
Don't forget to give me credit, I made the loopholes which caused this huge uproar, it made banning Leppa Berry and Heal Pulse useless.
Banning the combination of Leppa + Trapping Moves or requesting the assistance of a mod seem like the best solution(s) to me.
Though I feel like banning may be a bit much, like YoungKingPat said, if you get trapped, call it GG and better prepare your team for next time. So far I haven't been trapped, and I've beat gtfo's Rachi and a guy who had 6 trapping pokes, who ended up forfeiting because my team could handle all of his trapping attempts.
Also Zarel, I like the 16 turn Struggle Clause but there is at least one way around it, Fling + Leppa + Recycle allows you to replenish your opponent's PP while never running out of your own.
I would much rather prefer this than banning Leppa Berry + Harvest/Recycle. Same with banning Heal Pulse, I find that it's unnecessary, and that just saying that 16 Struggles in a row will end in a draw will decrease or even stop the usage of Heal Pulse.
Leppa Berry will replenish the first move's PP. In other words, if you have an offensive move in the first slot, a switching move, or Baton Pass, it will immediately restore that move's PP and allow that annoying Jirachi to die.
PP stall is a strategy. This infinite stuff that makes it so whoever has more time IRL wins the game is not a strategy. I'm for the 16 Struggles in a row causes a tie. Prevents anything from being banned because there are loopholes anyway according to the mad scientists behind the strategy and keeps competitively viable things like Leppa Berry in the game. This is better than considering it timer stalling because there's too much gray area there. By clausing it you prevent this, and 16 in a row seems like a good number to do it.
16 Struggles Clause +
Infinite Turns -
Thanks for clarifying that, I've only seen the set used and was unfamiliar with the mechanics of it. Also I should have made it more clear but by getting to the point of struggle (say against a Jirachi) I assumed that any attacking move would inflict less than 50% hp to Jirachi and the struggling Pokemon wouldn't have escape moves like BP, otherwise they wouldn't have ran out of pp.
As it turns out, there are ways to unilaterally force an infinite loop that doesn't involve Struggle (namely, Fling+Leppa+Recycle).
That's a major reason I'd like for infinite Leppa (namely, Leppa+Recycle or Leppa+Harvest) to be banned: it's involved in many different kinds of infinite loops.
Banning infinite Leppa will force Pokémon to eventually Struggle, and force-drawing after 16 Struggles will ensure that the game will end unless both players do nothing but switch. We might change that to a force-draw after 16 Struggles or switches, if we want to enforce that the game will end even if neither player wants it to.
(Well, actually, there'd still be one possible infinite PP source left: Imposter. It shouldn't be exploitable, though.)
Zarel banning both Leppa+Recycle or Leppa+Harvest would not be the best idea. There are many uses of both those strategies that do not exploit the system. Leppa+Harvest is relatively equivalent to an Imposter Chansey when not abusing moves such as the listed jirachi set. As far as Leppa+Recycle there are many viable strategies surrounding that as well (for ex. putting it on a magic bouncer with low pp moves like heal bell, synthesis etc.) If you ban those you might as well ban imposter altogether. I think the best solution is just to ban the use of trapping moves in par with leppa+recycle or leppa+harvest.
Imposter is a much more effective ability than Harvest with Leppa. Imposter practically defines BH. Banning it isn't an option. Leppa is niche though and not that much is lost if it is banned in some situations. Still, I would like to give my support to banning Leppa Berry on Pokemon with Trapping moves or abilities. If you are capable of switching and still can't break through the wall then you have lost anyway. This way does mean that you can't trap then PP stall a wall to death which is a somewhat legit strategy but I would say that this isn't much of a loss.
Keep note that there are alternatives that do not even need Leppa Berry. Also, by that logic, Huge Power or Shadow Tag should have never been banned by that logic. Just like Imposter, they were metagame defining.
They were also rather broken (or, at least, deemed undesirable for the metagame). I see no need to get rid of Imposter over something so petty. Leppa Berry isn't important, though, so getting rid of it is on the table here. And what are these alternatives that don't need Leppa Berry? Unless you are talking about Imposter I doubt that these are strategies that can reasonably be expected to be pulled off.
Banning Heal Pulse would be the simplest approach towards stopping this particular set from being viable, but as other users have stated there are other methods of stalling. Leppa Berry + Recycle can be used in other sets which rely on heavy PP usage, and may not be strategies which rely on external factors. I'm leaning towards setting the struggle clause that Zarel has proposed, as it would negate the cheese, though we're still left with the problem of the various stall strategies themselves. As said by ntiller, treating any form of endlessstall or timestall which wouldn't allow the game to progress should warrant investigation by administration.
Ban Heal Pulse
Implement 16 turn Struggle stalemate
Implement penalties for perpetrating Endless Stall
Hope that this being my first post doesn't discredit the opinion, I'm intent on seeing this issue get a solid solution.
I also think that people who just use their whole team around this strategy, just to troll, should be banned because forcing tie only hurts the good players