Another problem with Imposter Chansey is how easily it is telegraphed - while Fur Coat Chansey is a thing, most people will know you're keeping Chansey in the back because you wait for an opportunity to use Imposter. I can clearly see why Imposter isn't broken as it can be easily prepared for or anticipated. Although I can imagine Regigigas, Slaking or Giratina running Imposter rarely to catch people off guard when they set up on a team without either of the blobs.
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Balanced Hackmons Suspect Discussion
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Imposter Chansey IS broken imo but we just can't ban it because it'd fuck up the meta.
Here's the issue I have with saying that Imposter Chansey is broken. Yes, it can take any member of your team and make it crazily strong bulk-wise. However, it needs to be understood that there are a bunch of viable ways to 1-on-1 Imposter-proof your Pokemon. Some examples include, for those of us who don't already know:
- Judgment shenanigans
- PH alongside moves that you can tank and heal off (but with which you can wear down their non-healing Imposter)
- Safety Goggles+Spore
- Leech Seed w/o other recovery
Take, for instance, a hypothetical situation where I have an Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega with Fake Out/Extremespeed/Boomburst/Magma Storm. If I run a Soundproof Slowbro-Mega or Flash Fire Registeel (or anything else that walls that set) alongside it, I can fearlessly bring out my wall against the Imposter. Walling opponents in BH is always tough because there is pretty much always a move that fucks over your wall (think Techno Blast for Slowbro-Mega or TA for Registeel). However, when taking on an Imposter you know exactly what their capabilities are. Of course, they now know what yours are in return, but that's beside the point of whether the Imposter itself is necessarily broken.
It's also worth noting that, assuming you have a team with a semi-decent defensive framework, you should definitely have defensive checks to your own offensive Pokemon because goddamnit, your opponent could be running one too. Running an Aerilate Crayquaza and complaining about getting fucked over by Imposter Espeeds is stupid, because Imposter Espeeds are almost 100% certain to be weaker than those fired off by the original Ray (most Rays run a boosting item, whereas basically all Chanseys don't). You are playing BH, you need an -ate check. Deal with it. Yes, it is extremely difficult to break an Imposter Chansey with Eviolite intact via sheer force, but get creative. If you can wear the Chansey down with Status, Rocks, or the paltry damage that comes from attacking it, it'll die soon enough.
(Note, this whole spiel was written with the idea that Chansey would be Impostering an offensive threat; I haven't really looked at copying support/defensive threats yet, but it seems to be a relatively weak reason for banning it. Feel free to prove me wrong, though)
Why the hell are we still discussing Imposter Chansey? Its been brought up a million times and the answer is the same as always: No way in hell are we banning Imposter Chansey. Ever. And No we won't consider a complex ban. Stop asking. In fact there isn't anyone arguing to ban it, so again, why are we still discussing Imposter Chansey?
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Well yes, maybe I should've said over-centralizing. Anyway I've already made a very long post about Imposter, dealing with it, and especially why we shouldn't ban it.
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Yes please let's move on the next discussion points (-ate and Sleep Spam).
Awesome. Problem solved.
So about -ate I think that the problem is that it has very powerful abusers. We've got Mega Rayquaza, Kyurem-Black and Mega Diancie; with 180/180, 170/120 and 160/160 offenses each one. I feel it's wrong to ban these because ONE of its sets is broken. I think we should make a complex ban featuring Aerilate Mega Ray, Refrigerate Kyurem-B and Pixilate Mega Diancie. I mean Gale Wings Mega Rayquaza, or Skill Link Kyurem-Black for example, are nowhere close to those, and -ate abusers are still powerful, but how can you compare those 131/131 offenses from Xerneas & Yveltal to those monsters? And Refrigerate... well we might have to take a look to Refrigerate Kyurem-W this way, but at least has a far weaker FakeSpeed.
On sleep, I don't think is THAT over-centralizing, I don't run Poison Heal nor Lum Berries nor Safety Goggles and I'm fine. However, I've been abusing sleep quite a bit with Deoxys-Speed (w/ Dark Void) and I can tell how uncompetitive this is (it even made Deo-S look good) so I'm for the Sleep Clause.
On sleep, I don't think is THAT over-centralizing, I don't run Poison Heal nor Lum Berries nor Safety Goggles and I'm fine. However, I've been abusing sleep quite a bit with Deoxys-Speed (w/ Dark Void) and I can tell how uncompetitive this is (it even made Deo-S look good) so I'm for the Sleep Clause.
-ate Xerneas and Yveltal come close to 2HKOing most defensive walls with a 128/128 mixed set, so while it's easier to wall, it still restricts the non-wall meta as badly. And then you also have -ate Kyurem-N, Rayquaza-N, Aerodactyl-M, Mewtwo-X, Mewtwo-Y, Pinsir-M, Salamence-M, Ho-oh, Mamoswine, Charizard-Y, Thundurus-T, Manecrtric, Zekrom, Ampharos-M and even Glaceon. Yes, some of those sound weird, but that's pretty much the full list of the "next best -ates" by glancing at Attack and Special Attack stats and typing or by going off the ones that have been used before at higher rankings.
While I'm inactive and aren't entirely sure on the best course of action, I'd be against a complex ban like that because it doesn't change much and still leaves a lot of otherwise would-be useful Pokemon in the dirt, like Zekrom and Sceptile-M. You'd still be pretty much forced to shove stuff like Registeel on every team.
While I'm inactive and aren't entirely sure on the best course of action, I'd be against a complex ban like that because it doesn't change much and still leaves a lot of otherwise would-be useful Pokemon in the dirt, like Zekrom and Sceptile-M. You'd still be pretty much forced to shove stuff like Registeel on every team.
Well yes I see your point. The fact that -ates can be checked by another -ate doesn't help either. Not that Registeel is bad but gets 2HKOed by common coverage moves the -ates run (Precipice Blades, Thousand Arrows, V-create...).
I still feel that our current abusers are far from those on the list (they don't get STAB and/or they don't have such monstruous mixed offenses). Btw I've seen Mega Sceptile on a few matches, used as a Sash or Scarfed Contrary.
I think there's nothing wrong on trying a complex ban - if the ability proves broken then we can always outright ban it, but I understand that might not be the best option, and I wouldn't be against a full -ate ban.
So Lcass said this in a convo I'm a part of a while ago, and I just wanted to repost this here. The point of his post was to show that banning MRay was a bad idea, but it has some stuff about -ates that I think are relevant to this discussion.
I agree with Lcass that some kind of -ate ability is necessary to keep the meta balanced and not just a setup fest. But I think that -ate Ray is too strong, as it can 2hko physically defensive Registeel with a resisted move. Not too many things can pull that off. Boomburst and ESpeed are so spammable and have so few counters each, and the amount of teambuilding necessary to stop Ray from killing everything (especially on semistall teams) is overwhelming and unhealthy for the meta. I don't think that Diancie and Kyurem-Black are as good as Ray, so I don't firmly believe that they should be banned (they help balance out the meta, whereas Ray destroys it).
Personally, I don't find -ates an issue at all. Sturdinja deals with them easily. It's not that hard to find one slot for Sturdinja on a team because it efficiently and offensively counters anything that isn't Ghost-type, Moldy, or running a status move, and Lum Berry snags the KO on that last one anyway. I also concur with those that have said -ates are an important balancing factor for dealing with setup sweepers like Gengar. When you're only allowed one per team, they're hardly over-centralizing, and I think that restriction keeps them within the bounds of reason while still letting them do their job.
To be perfectly honest, I think one -ate is more restrictive than is necessary. I feel what should be implemented is a clause that groups all -ate abilities together for the ability clause and the same should be done for Mold Breaker, Teravolt, and Turboblaze, as well as Insomnia and Vital Spirit and any other functionally identical abilities.
To be perfectly honest, I think one -ate is more restrictive than is necessary. I feel what should be implemented is a clause that groups all -ate abilities together for the ability clause and the same should be done for Mold Breaker, Teravolt, and Turboblaze, as well as Insomnia and Vital Spirit and any other functionally identical abilities.
Shedinja loses to Magma Storm on the switch, which is very commonly used. Also, other team support can easily deal with Shedinja, such as Moldy Pursuit users or even Stealth Rock. One misplay and the game is over if Shed is your only switchin for -ate users.
As for your second post, the general consensus is that one -ate user per team is already hard to deal with, and you're suggesting allowing 2? That would be even more overcentralizing than it is already.
Are you serious? -ates aren't overcentralzing cause Sturdinja counters? I can't tell what's worse, how wrong this is or the fact you seemed to have put thought into your post. It is an extremely simple matter of putting a residual damage move on any -ate. Moves like Infestation and Leech Seed are incredibly splashable since they tend to not harm your ability to run counters to them. At least not much as coverage moves. Even if you choose not to run residual damage moves U-turn can be used to pivot to a Moldy Pursuit trapper. And counters that cannot switch into hazards are generally considered unacceptable, so Sheddy fails in this regard as well. Sheddy is not a reliable counter to anything. The OMPL matches are a perfect example of how unreliable Sheddy is in high level play. Shed saw little usage in the OMPL and when it was used it didn't really preform too well. Even if we pretend Shed is an acceptable counter, it's literally the definition of overcentralizing if we expect everyone to run Shed to beat -ate. As for balancing set up sweepers, plenty of other viable priority exists, -ate is just so fucking strong they see little to no play.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
in all reality, as ive mentioned previously, shedinja not only has checks, and counters, it has stuff i call "obliterators": stuff that basically completely shit on shedinjas life and make its job incredibly difficult to do. shedinja isnt to be used as a counter, because if your counter is a "one trick pony" then its probably not that good as one. shedinja should be used as a wild card, something that CAN handle threats, but shouldnt enless you are forced into it/know you are safe. most good players, (most of which are retired/not interested in bh atm) always stuck by these rules, simply because if you lose because of infestation of all things, not only is it shameful, but its also super easy to splash OTHER methods of beating it...."set up stealth rocks, go into offensive sweeper, gg you lose" your team can be super good, versus some random douchebag, and end up 6-0ing you just because he HAPPENS to run infestation on his aerialate mega rayquaza.
TLDR: if you ain't a god of prediction, or have 3+ defoggers, you should not use shed as a counter.
Okay, I find Shedinja quite useful as a counter, but that might be because I use a weird 6-Shedinja team that carries answers to typical counters like Stealth Rock, Infestation and Ghost-types, so my idea of its usefulness on a typical team is probably a little off. As in a lot off. Sorry about that.
Anyway, here are some other answers.
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Running some damage calcs proves that these things are ridiculously hard to deal with through means other than Endeavor. So... Why not run something that's a bit slower at first, give it a Focus Sash, Speed Boost, Endeavor, and Extreme Speed, and — Oh hold up, that's completely stupid. Nothing should require that much work to answer.
Except I still don't think they do. Scarf Chansey/Blissey is a potential option. That kinda ruins their utility as tanks, but if you wanted a revenge killer, you got one with them. Contrary mons with defense dropping moves or Simple mons with defense boosting ones could also work. Normalize Gengar shuts down -ate mons (and a lot of other stuff) hard, provided it can tank an ESpeed, which it can do with 240 Defense EVs. Quite a few, yes, but hey, it's taking out their -ate mon. If Stealth Rock is a concern, 252 Def and 4 HP with a Def-boosting nature cuts their OHKO chance to 1/8.Specs Prankster Modest 252 SpA Primal Kyogre can also take out pretty much any -ate mon (after a wee bit of prior damage) with Me First on Boomburst (a pretty safe bet since nobody is going to ESpeed Primal Kyogre), but that's still pretty gimmicky.
Anyway, perhaps two -ates is too many. I can't say for sure, but running these calcs has shown me that without Endeavor and pseudo-invincible Pokémon, these things are in fact, very difficult to deal with.
Anyway, here are some other answers.
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Running some damage calcs proves that these things are ridiculously hard to deal with through means other than Endeavor. So... Why not run something that's a bit slower at first, give it a Focus Sash, Speed Boost, Endeavor, and Extreme Speed, and — Oh hold up, that's completely stupid. Nothing should require that much work to answer.
Except I still don't think they do. Scarf Chansey/Blissey is a potential option. That kinda ruins their utility as tanks, but if you wanted a revenge killer, you got one with them. Contrary mons with defense dropping moves or Simple mons with defense boosting ones could also work. Normalize Gengar shuts down -ate mons (and a lot of other stuff) hard, provided it can tank an ESpeed, which it can do with 240 Defense EVs. Quite a few, yes, but hey, it's taking out their -ate mon. If Stealth Rock is a concern, 252 Def and 4 HP with a Def-boosting nature cuts their OHKO chance to 1/8.
Anyway, perhaps two -ates is too many. I can't say for sure, but running these calcs has shown me that without Endeavor and pseudo-invincible Pokémon, these things are in fact, very difficult to deal with.
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And also Sheddy needs an entire team built around it. So if we force "Sheddy archetypes" that means over-centralizing.
I'm still for the complex ban, even more now that the possibility of a set-up meta has been brought. Weaker abusers (Rumors already made a list of them) are still able to pressure set-up through powerful priority. And Mega Rayquaza needs something to be done about it, we all agree.
Such a complex ban would feature:
Aerilate Mega Rayquaza
Refrigerate Kyurem-Black
Pixilate Mega Diancie
But as always this is just my suggestion.
EDIT: Two -ates per team? Please, no. It is already problematic to deal with one as most of its counters can be bypassed depending on your 4th slot.
I'm still for the complex ban, even more now that the possibility of a set-up meta has been brought. Weaker abusers (Rumors already made a list of them) are still able to pressure set-up through powerful priority. And Mega Rayquaza needs something to be done about it, we all agree.
Such a complex ban would feature:
Aerilate Mega Rayquaza
Refrigerate Kyurem-Black
Pixilate Mega Diancie
But as always this is just my suggestion.
EDIT: Two -ates per team? Please, no. It is already problematic to deal with one as most of its counters can be bypassed depending on your 4th slot.
That complex ban seems pretty good. Even with that, I still think a clause should be added that groups -ates and other functionally identical moves together. Five or six weaker -ates doesn't seem a whole lot better to me than one broken one.
Which secondary clause are you thinking about?
And there are three broken -ates (those the complex ban would cover) just that one stands out even between them (Aerilate M-Ray). At least this is how I see it.
Pinkzeppelincult Primal Kyogre is banned, so any strategy involving it is irrelevant.
On set-up sweepers, we do have other ways to deal with them without -ates. We didn't have a bunch of issues Gen V, though granted we had uncontrolled Spore-phazing spam, but we have a lot of new tools this gen too. For anti-set-up without -Ate, you have Pranksters with any sort of moves for shutting them down (Encore, Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, Destiny Bond, etc.), Imposters, Normal Extreme Speed (hi Gengar!), Gale Wings (bye Gengar!), Unaware walls and sweepers, Shedinja (though see above posts), defensive set-up (like Cotton Guard, though more relevant to Baton Pass teams AFAIK), phazing, and fast, offensive nukes (hi Protean Mewtwo!). And that's just off the top of my head.
Set-up is very nasty when it gets going, yes, but it also takes time, so you're able to react somewhat. Would removing -ates require you to have an anti-set-up Pokemon or two? Well yes, probably, though a lot of players tend to have that already, whether it be their -ate or Imposter.
On set-up sweepers, we do have other ways to deal with them without -ates. We didn't have a bunch of issues Gen V, though granted we had uncontrolled Spore-phazing spam, but we have a lot of new tools this gen too. For anti-set-up without -Ate, you have Pranksters with any sort of moves for shutting them down (Encore, Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, Destiny Bond, etc.), Imposters, Normal Extreme Speed (hi Gengar!), Gale Wings (bye Gengar!), Unaware walls and sweepers, Shedinja (though see above posts), defensive set-up (like Cotton Guard, though more relevant to Baton Pass teams AFAIK), phazing, and fast, offensive nukes (hi Protean Mewtwo!). And that's just off the top of my head.
Set-up is very nasty when it gets going, yes, but it also takes time, so you're able to react somewhat. Would removing -ates require you to have an anti-set-up Pokemon or two? Well yes, probably, though a lot of players tend to have that already, whether it be their -ate or Imposter.
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I did a search, and, much to my surprise, a thread like has not been made yet in the OM forum.
My proposal is simple: ban Shedinja from BH. Now I know that both you and I have places to go and people to see, so I'm gonna try to keep this short and sweet.
My proposal is simple: ban Shedinja from BH. Now I know that both you and I have places to go and people to see, so I'm gonna try to keep this short and sweet.
- In the main tiers (RU, OU, Ubers, etc.), a Pokemon is banned when it is considered to be over-centralizing and disruptive to the metagame. Shedinja requires every team in BH to have at least one counter to it, and two or three other Mons to dedicate a move slot to getting rid of the little shit. I'm sure that players would like to do something else with that space rather than dedicate it to one stinkin Mon.
- You might be saying "Pft! We don't need to ban Shedinja. I don't have a problem dealing with it.". Well, yea, that's because you probably dedicated a disproportionate amount of your team to countering it. I'm sure that if Shedinja was banned, you'd make changes to the Mons you use to deal with it.
- BH isn't necessarily the format where anything is possible. It has it's restrictions too. We've already banned the Primals, so it's not like all Pokemon are immune from being banned. And we've also banned OHKO moves. Isn't Shedinja kind of like the "reciprocal" of OHKO moves?
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
If this was the banning philosophy the whole tier would be banned. Sheddy requires a lot of support and loses to standard sets. Slap magma storm or sacred fire on your ate user. Use stallbreakers. Burn it. Use simple beam. Use hazards. Sheddy isn't more broken than the rest of the tier, so It should not go. BH is inherently overcentralized, that isn't a reason to ban something.
Sheddy should not be banned. At least not for the reasons you gave. Yes you have to dedicate one pokemon on your team to beating shed, but you can say the same thing about every top threat in every metagame. Ou doesn't ban Clefable just because you need a dedicated counter to it on every team. If you don't have a dedicated counter to Clefable on your OU team, then its a bad team. Same thing applies here. If you don't want to run a dedicated counter to Sheddy i suggest playing another OM. BH expects you to be able to deal with things that are otherwise "broken" in other tiers. Additionally, most Shed answers are good for things other then beating Shed. Mold Breaker beats Magic Bounce and Unaware, Hazards are good against all teams, Status cripples more then just Shed, Magma Storm and Infestation help break walls by trapping and doing residual damage. Leech Seed saps HP. Shed doesn't place an unreasonable burden on players at the teambuilder. At worst you have to run one or 2 moves that would be less optimal if Shed wasn't in the tier.
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Things is, who doesn't have a team with toxic or willo? Hell even sandstorm or hail teams destroy it, not to mention entry hazards, I have never seen a team without toxic, willo or stealth rocks.
Ok so we should ban Sheddy because it's overcentralizing... Sorry, BH is a centralized tier by definition.
Sheddy can block MOST direct damage but loses to ALL indirect damage. So you're facing a stall team, chances are they'll have Leech Seed or Curse or WoW and the like, not to stop Sheddy specifically, but as common moves to rack passive damage on just about anything.
Oh wait, you're facing an offensive team? Chances are they have hazards. There's Mold Breaker Mega Gengar. There's Magma Storm. There's Infestation. There's Knock Off to take out its Lum and weather is there too. Just put one of those on your team (if you didn't need it before to stop whatever threat anyway).
Sheddy is a bitch to take down, I must give you that. But it's not broken (overcentralizing means nothing in BH), hell, the ONLY thing it can do is gain momentum (which does well) unless you're 100% sure you're safe. And if it turns out you weren't... bye Sheddy.
Sheddy can block MOST direct damage but loses to ALL indirect damage. So you're facing a stall team, chances are they'll have Leech Seed or Curse or WoW and the like, not to stop Sheddy specifically, but as common moves to rack passive damage on just about anything.
Oh wait, you're facing an offensive team? Chances are they have hazards. There's Mold Breaker Mega Gengar. There's Magma Storm. There's Infestation. There's Knock Off to take out its Lum and weather is there too. Just put one of those on your team (if you didn't need it before to stop whatever threat anyway).
Sheddy is a bitch to take down, I must give you that. But it's not broken (overcentralizing means nothing in BH), hell, the ONLY thing it can do is gain momentum (which does well) unless you're 100% sure you're safe. And if it turns out you weren't... bye Sheddy.
Having Sheddy in the tier is also nice because it restricts the potential of a lot of other otherwise potentially broken sweepers as well. With Sheddy and Chansey, this Pokemon are restricted from using moves that are too directly powerful, in favor of slightly weaker moves with more niche utility effects. Remove Sheddy and suddenly things like Mega Ray can run Blue Flare to reliably and easily get past Steel-types, Primal Groudon immediately becomes a huge threat because literally nothing not immune to VCreate takes less than 50% besides Fur Coat Gira, and MMX / MMY lose a significant check as well.
And it's a great Pokemon to use when you're first learning the tier, but, just like as is the case with Chansey, you soon realize that everyone good beats it easily and it is far better to make intelligent, synergized teambuilding choices than bank on something universally regarded as a basic threat.
And it's a great Pokemon to use when you're first learning the tier, but, just like as is the case with Chansey, you soon realize that everyone good beats it easily and it is far better to make intelligent, synergized teambuilding choices than bank on something universally regarded as a basic threat.
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