Something occurred to me and it's a really interesting thought exercise. Think of whatever is proposed being banned (evasion and -ate right now, anything else that might be coming up) that you don't want to be banned. Imagine that, instead, it is currently banned and you are arguing for it to be unbanned. How would you argue that it would be beneficial to the meta overall to unban?
Just take a moment and think about it. And also consider what already exists that's relatively common that also already answers those problems it'd address.
Not using this as a point or counterpoint to anything since this is a theoretical exercise, but it's interesting to think about things in the light of "would it be good to add if it wasn't a thing already?"
Lcass4919 : It's... not really uncomparable. Ubers is OU without any bans whatsoever. Pure Hackmons is Balanced Hackmons without any bans whatsoever (and more than 510 EVs now too, but that's less relevant.) Honestly, you could call them Hackmons Ubers and Hackmons OU and it'd be accurate. The only main difference is we've had a preference for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.
Also, you're missing the point a bit. I understand the metagame is vast. But only in theory. I feel that things are too centralized and that, despite the multitude of options, the metagame right now has a very narrow focus on a few specific threats and countering said few specific threats. I mean, yes, you can run Adapt V-Create Choice Band Mega-Blaziken, but why should you when you can get comparable or better power combined with priority, flinching, and substitute negation?
Gen V BH was broad. While it was a little stall oriented due to spore-hazard-phazing being a thing, and a very powerful thing, and weather was pretty common, you could still run a hell of a lot of strategies and be successful without having to devote 1/6 to 1/2 of your team to checking specific Pokemon. Gen VI pre-510, or lets just call it X/Y since we're so close to the next games we're pretty much in early ORAS, wasn't as broad since a number of playstyles appeared, weather died, causing Sheddy to be able to run supportless and neuter so many offensive threats, and offense also got more focused into a few abilities + Gengar. Now options are even less because that narrow focused offense can plow through many mons who could previously check or counter them since they lost bulk. For example, my PH Gigas could withstand Fake + Speed from most -ates to smash them hard back or cripple them while outspeeding common Boomers to do the same. I can't do both now and my Gigas is now reliably forced out by most -ates whereas it used to force them out or cripple them.
And I'm not even commenting on the "well I could just use this set to check the Xerneas set you used for your calcs because reasons!" I mean, it's almost like this isn't a vast metagame and Xerneas can't run moves for those checks you mentioned instead. (And plus it misses the point I was making anyway.)
Also...
Anyway, our definitions of "uber" are stuff banned to Pure Hackmons. Pure Power is Uber and "godly". Wonder Guard is Uber and "godly". Parental Bond is Uber and "godly". Poison Heal is not. Magic Bounce is not. Contrary is not (as annoying as it is). Simple is not. There are a lot of things that'd be OP as hell in Ubers that aren't even a notable blip on our radars. Balanced Hackmons is, in theory, balanced by pitting stupidly powerful stuff against equally stupidly powerful stuff. The only things we get rid of is the stuff that still manages to prove to be overpowered, over-centralizing, or unhealthy in comparison.
Also, yes, it is slippery-slope. Getting freaked out that some things would get out of control and would need to be banned because something else would get banned is slippery-slope. And it's not too far off from the sort of fear mongering that rose up when Mold Breaker was fixed last gen. All those Shell Smashing Spore-spamming Unaware Nuking Mold Breakers everywhere, right?
Also also...
Meanwhile...
Unless you can explain to me how all of those are purely luck-based inducing bans and have nothing to do with being too powerful offensively or defensively.
Just take a moment and think about it. And also consider what already exists that's relatively common that also already answers those problems it'd address.
Not using this as a point or counterpoint to anything since this is a theoretical exercise, but it's interesting to think about things in the light of "would it be good to add if it wasn't a thing already?"
Lcass4919 : It's... not really uncomparable. Ubers is OU without any bans whatsoever. Pure Hackmons is Balanced Hackmons without any bans whatsoever (and more than 510 EVs now too, but that's less relevant.) Honestly, you could call them Hackmons Ubers and Hackmons OU and it'd be accurate. The only main difference is we've had a preference for banning abilities rather than Pokemon.
Also, you're missing the point a bit. I understand the metagame is vast. But only in theory. I feel that things are too centralized and that, despite the multitude of options, the metagame right now has a very narrow focus on a few specific threats and countering said few specific threats. I mean, yes, you can run Adapt V-Create Choice Band Mega-Blaziken, but why should you when you can get comparable or better power combined with priority, flinching, and substitute negation?
Gen V BH was broad. While it was a little stall oriented due to spore-hazard-phazing being a thing, and a very powerful thing, and weather was pretty common, you could still run a hell of a lot of strategies and be successful without having to devote 1/6 to 1/2 of your team to checking specific Pokemon. Gen VI pre-510, or lets just call it X/Y since we're so close to the next games we're pretty much in early ORAS, wasn't as broad since a number of playstyles appeared, weather died, causing Sheddy to be able to run supportless and neuter so many offensive threats, and offense also got more focused into a few abilities + Gengar. Now options are even less because that narrow focused offense can plow through many mons who could previously check or counter them since they lost bulk. For example, my PH Gigas could withstand Fake + Speed from most -ates to smash them hard back or cripple them while outspeeding common Boomers to do the same. I can't do both now and my Gigas is now reliably forced out by most -ates whereas it used to force them out or cripple them.
And I'm not even commenting on the "well I could just use this set to check the Xerneas set you used for your calcs because reasons!" I mean, it's almost like this isn't a vast metagame and Xerneas can't run moves for those checks you mentioned instead. (And plus it misses the point I was making anyway.)
Also...
First, my recommended solution is to complex ban three moves plus -ate, not -ates entirely. Second, the things that "qualify as uber" in BH are not the same as in standard. Didn't you just say the metas were uncomparable?like, if we go by banning stuff based on "what makes a pokemon uber" then we might as well ban the entire concept of bh, because <sniping here because length>
Anyway, our definitions of "uber" are stuff banned to Pure Hackmons. Pure Power is Uber and "godly". Wonder Guard is Uber and "godly". Parental Bond is Uber and "godly". Poison Heal is not. Magic Bounce is not. Contrary is not (as annoying as it is). Simple is not. There are a lot of things that'd be OP as hell in Ubers that aren't even a notable blip on our radars. Balanced Hackmons is, in theory, balanced by pitting stupidly powerful stuff against equally stupidly powerful stuff. The only things we get rid of is the stuff that still manages to prove to be overpowered, over-centralizing, or unhealthy in comparison.
Also, yes, it is slippery-slope. Getting freaked out that some things would get out of control and would need to be banned because something else would get banned is slippery-slope. And it's not too far off from the sort of fear mongering that rose up when Mold Breaker was fixed last gen. All those Shell Smashing Spore-spamming Unaware Nuking Mold Breakers everywhere, right?
Also also...
One thing at a time (and this applies to whatever else someone might say as to "well why isn't this banned yet then?". I was actually planning to take on Shedinja earlier, but I was busy. And then 510 hit before I was ready and I decided to sit back and let things evolve to see if it still needed to be tackled. -ates stuck out to me more after 510, so I copied down the formatting I was using for that post and focused on this. But unless something changes, I'll likely get to it sooner or later.why isnt shedinja banned because it can ko every offensive pokemon with endeavoir, ice shard, or go smashpass, or it can pivot out or it can pain split to avoid rocky helmit, or run sash to avoid moldy pursuit etc etc or it can even run prankster dbond and just ko a pokemon on your team flat out (bad example i know) but do you at least somewhat get my trail of thought?
Meanwhile...
This. Isn't. True. At. All.We only ban what is blatantly uncompetitive, and sometimes not even that.
Unless you can explain to me how all of those are purely luck-based inducing bans and have nothing to do with being too powerful offensively or defensively.