Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

I am having trouble understanding why an ability with literally 0 drawbacks that can be used on literally any mon with >150 offense and essentially outshines every other abilities in terms of wall breaking power isn't broken.

Here is a list of what protean can do

- 2HKO over 90% of the metagame with just Ghost/Fighting or Fairy/Ground coverage
- Can't be revenge killed by most forms of priority thanks to King's Shield
- Still has another moveslot to invalidate one of its very very few counters
- Slappable on almost any mon (such as M-Ray, and even M-Diancie) making perfect lures for their would be checks.
- Extremely easy to imposter proof with plates
- Very unpredictable and again, can be used with any mons with any moves.

Can you find another ability that is as good as Protean?

No other ability gives as much flexibility, unpredictability and wallbreaking power as Protean.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-306644884

This replay shows just how flexible and unpredictable Protean is. It can be used as an amazing lure and since it gains STAB for all of its moves, even uninvested SE coverage can 2HKO bulky walls such as Giratina and Yveltal (although this replay didn't show that but trust me, with just a couple of EVs into spatk that Mewtwo can 2HKO both of them)

 

[MAMP]

Please also stop asserting falsehoods as fact- countering a wall does in fact mean beating it, MRay does counter some things like mgar (252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 240-283 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and not countering things is a problem because it's one more thing you need team support for. Depending on the monl it might not bea crippling problem(like if it was true for MMY it wouldn't be), but it's a problem nonetheless as it makes it less splashable.

You seem to be a bit confused as to what the difference between a check and a counter is. A counter is a Pokemon that can consistently and reliably switch into the majority of a Pokemon's sets, and beat it 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that, while it generally wins 1v1, struggles to consistently switch in or loses to a common variant of the set. You said that Mega Ray is a counter to Mega Gengar, but this is not the case. While it is true that Mega Ray can switch into Mega Gengar and not be OHKO'd and then OHKO MGar in return with Espeed, it isn't a counter because it takes like 75% to do so. It can't switch in more than once, and it can't switch in at all if its taken a bit of prior damage. An example of a counter to Mega Gengar is PH Yveltal, which can easily take even boosted hits from Mega Gengar, recover off the damage, and OHKO with Knock Off. Yveltal can deal with Mega Gengar consistently and repeatedly; this is what makes it a counter, rather than a check.

Now that thats cleared up, I want to look at Protean Mewtwo Y. You've talked before about M2Y's supposed counters, and I want to examine that. What counters Protean M2Y? First, lets evaluate the standard and most common set, Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/King's Shield/Boomburst|Quiver Dance|occasionally Sludge Bomb. Here's a list of every somewhat viable counter I could come up with.

Mega Audino can beat many variants of this set, but it loses to Sludge Bomb and it's very shaky against Boomburst sets.

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 190-225 (46.4 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Additionally, SpDef spreads can be 2HKO'd by +1 Secret Sword.

Magic Guard SpDef Ho-Oh does generally counter this set, but it's 2HKO'd by +1 Judgment and can't OHKO M2Y in return, making it a bit shaky. In any case, SpDef Ho-oh is a fairly niche set that was literally devised specifically to beat M2Y. It would likely get very little usage if Protean M2Y weren't around, so the prevalence of this set I would argue is testament to Protean's centralisation of the meta more than anything.

Fur Coat Chansey is probably the most reliable counter to this set, but even that has to play 50/50s against Quiver Dance+Secret Sword sets. Regardless, FC Chansey is quite possibly the most passive, momentum-sucking Pokemon in the tier, and it really isn't the sort of Pokemon that most teams want to be running; the fact that so many offense and balance builds are slapping on FC Chansey just to cover Protean (and other miscellaneous threats) is honestly pretty gross and really says a lot about the sorry state of the current meta.

Shedinja does beat this, but we all know how unreliable Shed is a counter to anything.

Yveltal does decently, but depending on its spread it struggles to take Secret Sword or Boomburst, especially with Stealth Rock up.

The only decent RegenVest Pokemon that can take this on is Xerneas, as all of the others are either weak to Judgment or don't have the bulk to take Secret Sword. However, even this has to run a subpar Specially Defensive spread or it risks being 2HKOd by Judgment after rocks, and in any case this is an extremely uncommon set. And, similar to Ho-oh, this is a set that exists specifically because Protean M2Y is so prevalent, and as such I'm kinda reluctant to list it as a counter to it seeing as its a set that basically wouldn't be used if Protean weren't around.

That's it. Every other at-least-somewhat-viable Pokemon in the tier cannot stand up to Judgment + Secret Sword. That is a grand total of 6 Pokemon, all of which have to be at close to full health to avoid being 2HKO'd switching in, all of which can lose to fairly common coverage options, the majority of which are passive, defensive Pokemon that don't really fit onto most teams that well, 2 of which are used almost solely because they can counter M2Y, and one of which is Shedinja which is extremely unreliable. That is an extremely sparse and inconsistent collection of counters. And that's not even mentioning its other sets! The Life Orb set that bp scrub brought up beats basically all of these Pokemon, the Earth Plate set can beat quite a few, and the Tail Glow set that I used against InfernapeTropius11 in the BH Open here can beat most of M2Y's standard counters pretty easily too - in this replay it gets past an FC Chansey, a SpDef Ho-oh, and a MAudino, all of which were at full health.

Now, you could argue that this is not something unique to Protean, that any offensive Pokemon in BH can beat its usual checks and counters with particular coverage moves, and you wouldn't be wrong. Mega Gengar can pack Sludge Bomb to beat MAudino, PH Kyogre can run King's Shield to avoid being revenge killed by -ates, etc. However, the difference between these examples and Protean is that these Pokemon have to sacrifice something to run these coverage options, whereas Protean - by virtue of the fact that it already beats like 95% of the tier with 3 moves - doesn't really lose any functionality when it slaps on some random coverage move. I'll use Mold Breaker Mega Gengar as an example. The standard set is Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/Pursuit/Shell Smash|Quiver Dance. If Mega Gengar wants to run Sludge Bomb to hit MAudino, it has to sacrifice an important move to do so - if it drops Pursuit then it can't trap Shed, if it drops its boosting move then it has trouble sweeping and can't break through a lot of mons that it would be able to otherwise, and if it drops Secret Sword then it loses the ability to get past Darks and Normals. There's an actual tradeoff there; MGar is sacrificing functionality in order to beat MAudino. On the other hand, M2Y doesn't sacrifice anything by slapping on Boomburst, or Sludge Bomb, or Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow, or Infestation, or Spore. It achieves what it needs to with just 3 moveslots, and the fourth is completely free, just icing on the cake. This gives Protean a truly unparalleled level of versatility, and this in my opinion is the crucial factor as to why its worthy of a ban.

To recap: Protean M2Y beats the vast majority of offensive Pokemon 1v1 due to its phenomenal speed tier, immense power and ability to run perfect coverage unimpeded by its typing. This forces every team to run defensive counters to it, because offensive checks are practically non-existent; yet M2Y has a pathetically small list of supposed counters, and every single one either loses to common variants, is extremely passive and thus poorly suited for most team archtypes, is mediocre outside of beating M2Y, or some combination of these. Additionally, M2Y can customise its set to effectively pick and choose its counters without hindering its ability to perform its usual roles, which overall means that teams generally have to run multiple checks and counters to M2Y to avoid just getting blown away by it (and even this is sometimes not enough). This is making the metagame extraordinarily centralised, it limits the potential for variety and creativity in teambuilding, and generally makes the tier less fun to play (I'm fully aware that that last one is a purely subjective judgement). And this isn't even to mention the other viable Protean mons: M2X, which does most of the same things as M2Y but with a worse speed tier and less ability to run anti-Imposter sets; Mega Latios and Mega Rayquaza, which are even harder to wall than M2Y at the cost of some speed; and other miscellaneous niche Protean mons which can be used to lure in specific defensive Pokemon. Protean has a stranglehold on the metagame, and tbh I can't wait to be rid of it.


Now, some nitpicking:

In this post I'm a pretty big jerk, so please don't take it personally Bp Scrub- I know that you aren't an idiot, but your post really really got on my nerves. General statements that are incorrect are a huge pet peeve of mine, and the way you made your post didn't help matters.

All outside of levitate steels, chansey (any, even imposter), shedinja, PH Ho-Oh, a roll vs regirock,

regirock

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regirock in Sand: 166-198 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO

Sand TTar (uncommon but used for other things too), some anti-ate soundproofs, and some pranksters like Cresselia if you predict properly? Yes, it has power, but that isn't the achievement to hit in bh- the achievement in bh is to beat chansey (special) or fur coat (giratina/audino) physical. Why would I use something that KOs most mons with 4 moves when I can have 1 that KOs all of them with 2?

Literally not one of these examples is relevant. Levitate steels are extremely uncommon and generally fairly mediocre, and they have been since the release of TArrows. PH Ho-oh is shit and nobody ever uses it - and in any case it gets clean OHKO'd by this M2Y set if rocks are up. bp scrub mentioned both Chansey and Shedinja as exceptions in his post. Max SpDef AV Regirock under sand is hardly a common threat in BH, and the fact that this mon has a very solid chance to 2HKO a fairly bulky, fully SpDef invested Pokemon at what is effectively +2 SpDef is a testament to how broken it is more than anything. Sand TTar is 2HKO'd (unless this one is AV too):

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia is barely a relevant Pokemon in current BH, and its 2HKO'd by Boomburst anyway. The only really common Soundproof mon is MSlowbro, which gets nearly OHKO'd by Moonblast, and there are no other Soundproof Pokemon relevant enough to be used as a true counterargument here.

Please also stop asserting falsehoods as fact

Also, completely irrelevant aside: using decimate to mean destroy is not improper usage. Language is ultimately defined by how its speakers use it, and the vast vast majority of english speakers use the word decimate to mean 'destroy' and have done so for hundreds of years; it hasn't meant 'to remove one tenth' for a very long time. Correcting people when they say this makes you seem like a pretentious twat.

 

[morogrim]

You seem to be a bit confused as to what the difference between a check and a counter is. A counter is a Pokemon that can consistently and reliably switch into the majority of a Pokemon's sets, and beat it 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that, while it generally wins 1v1, struggles to consistently switch in or loses to a common variant of the set. You said that Mega Ray is a counter to Mega Gengar, but this is not the case. While it is true that Mega Ray can switch into Mega Gengar and not be OHKO'd and then OHKO MGar in return with Espeed, it isn't a counter because it takes like 75% to do so. It can't switch in more than once, and it can't switch in at all if its taken a bit of prior damage. An example of a counter to Mega Gengar is PH Yveltal, which can easily take even boosted hits from Mega Gengar, recover off the damage, and OHKO with Knock Off. Yveltal can deal with Mega Gengar consistently and repeatedly; this is what makes it a counter, rather than a check.

Now that thats cleared up, I want to look at Protean Mewtwo Y. You've talked before about M2Y's supposed counters, and I want to examine that. What counters Protean M2Y? First, lets evaluate the standard and most common set, Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/King's Shield/Boomburst|Quiver Dance|occasionally Sludge Bomb. Here's a list of every somewhat viable counter I could come up with.

Mega Audino can beat many variants of this set, but it loses to Sludge Bomb and it's very shaky against Boomburst sets.

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 190-225 (46.4 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Additionally, SpDef spreads can be 2HKO'd by +1 Secret Sword.

Magic Guard SpDef Ho-Oh does generally counter this set, but it's 2HKO'd by +1 Judgment and can't OHKO M2Y in return, making it a bit shaky. In any case, SpDef Ho-oh is a fairly niche set that was literally devised specifically to beat M2Y. It would likely get very little usage if Protean M2Y weren't around, so the prevalence of this set I would argue is testament to Protean's centralisation of the meta more than anything.

Fur Coat Chansey is probably the most reliable counter to this set, but even that has to play 50/50s against Quiver Dance+Secret Sword sets. Regardless, FC Chansey is quite possibly the most passive, momentum-sucking Pokemon in the tier, and it really isn't the sort of Pokemon that most teams want to be running; the fact that so many offense and balance builds are slapping on FC Chansey just to cover Protean (and other miscellaneous threats) is honestly pretty gross and really says a lot about the sorry state of the current meta.

Shedinja does beat this, but we all know how unreliable Shed is a counter to anything.

Yveltal does decently, but depending on its spread it struggles to take Secret Sword or Boomburst, especially with Stealth Rock up.

The only decent RegenVest Pokemon that can take this on is Xerneas, as all of the others are either weak to Judgment or don't have the bulk to take Secret Sword. However, even this has to run a subpar Specially Defensive spread or it risks being 2HKOd by Judgment after rocks, and in any case this is an extremely uncommon set. And, similar to Ho-oh, this is a set that exists specifically because Protean M2Y is so prevalent, and as such I'm kinda reluctant to list it as a counter to it seeing as its a set that basically wouldn't be used if Protean weren't around.

That's it. Every other at-least-somewhat-viable Pokemon in the tier cannot stand up to Judgment + Secret Sword. That is a grand total of 6 Pokemon, all of which have to be at close to full health to avoid being 2HKO'd switching in, all of which can lose to fairly common coverage options, the majority of which are passive, defensive Pokemon that don't really fit onto most teams that well, 2 of which are used almost solely because they can counter M2Y, and one of which is Shedinja which is extremely unreliable. That is an extremely sparse and inconsistent collection of counters. And that's not even mentioning its other sets! The Life Orb set that bp scrub brought up beats basically all of these Pokemon, the Earth Plate set can beat quite a few, and the Tail Glow set that I used against InfernapeTropius11 in the BH Open here can beat most of M2Y's standard counters pretty easily too - in this replay it gets past an FC Chansey, a SpDef Ho-oh, and a MAudino, all of which were at full health.

Now, you could argue that this is not something unique to Protean, that any offensive Pokemon in BH can beat its usual checks and counters with particular coverage moves, and you wouldn't be wrong. Mega Gengar can pack Sludge Bomb to beat MAudino, PH Kyogre can run King's Shield to avoid being revenge killed by -ates, etc. However, the difference between these examples and Protean is that these Pokemon have to sacrifice something to run these coverage options, whereas Protean - by virtue of the fact that it already beats like 95% of the tier with 3 moves - doesn't really lose any functionality when it slaps on some random coverage move. I'll use Mold Breaker Mega Gengar as an example. The standard set is Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/Pursuit/Shell Smash|Quiver Dance. If Mega Gengar wants to run Sludge Bomb to hit MAudino, it has to sacrifice an important move to do so - if it drops Pursuit then it can't trap Shed, if it drops its boosting move then it has trouble sweeping and can't break through a lot of mons that it would be able to otherwise, and if it drops Secret Sword then it loses the ability to get past Darks and Normals. There's an actual tradeoff there; MGar is sacrificing functionality in order to beat MAudino. On the other hand, M2Y doesn't sacrifice anything by slapping on Boomburst, or Sludge Bomb, or Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow, or Infestation, or Spore. It achieves what it needs to with just 3 moveslots, and the fourth is completely free, just icing on the cake. This gives Protean a truly unparalleled level of versatility, and this in my opinion is the crucial factor as to why its worthy of a ban.

To recap: Protean M2Y beats the vast majority of offensive Pokemon 1v1 due to its phenomenal speed tier, immense power and ability to run perfect coverage unimpeded by its typing. This forces every team to run defensive counters to it, because offensive checks are practically non-existent; yet M2Y has a pathetically small list of supposed counters, and every single one either loses to common variants, is extremely passive and thus poorly suited for most team archtypes, is mediocre outside of beating M2Y, or some combination of these. Additionally, M2Y can customise its set to effectively pick and choose its counters without hindering its ability to perform its usual roles, which overall means that teams generally have to run multiple checks and counters to M2Y to avoid just getting blown away by it (and even this is sometimes not enough). This is making the metagame extraordinarily centralised, it limits the potential for variety and creativity in teambuilding, and generally makes the tier less fun to play (I'm fully aware that that last one is a purely subjective judgement). And this isn't even to mention the other viable Protean mons: M2X, which does most of the same things as M2Y but with a worse speed tier and less ability to run anti-Imposter sets; Mega Latios and Mega Rayquaza, which are even harder to wall than M2Y at the cost of some speed; and other miscellaneous niche Protean mons which can be used to lure in specific defensive Pokemon. Protean has a stranglehold on the metagame, and tbh I can't wait to be rid of it.


Now, some nitpicking:


Literally not one of these examples is relevant. Levitate steels are extremely uncommon and generally fairly mediocre, and they have been since the release of TArrows. PH Ho-oh is shit and nobody ever uses it - and in any case it gets clean OHKO'd by this M2Y set if rocks are up. bp scrub mentioned both Chansey and Shedinja as exceptions in his post. Max SpDef AV Regirock under sand is hardly a common threat in BH, and the fact that this mon has a very solid chance to 2HKO a fairly bulky, fully SpDef invested Pokemon at what is effectively +2 SpDef is a testament to how broken it is more than anything. Sand TTar is 2HKO'd (unless this one is AV too):

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia is barely a relevant Pokemon in current BH, and its 2HKO'd by Boomburst anyway. The only really common Soundproof mon is MSlowbro, which gets nearly OHKO'd by Moonblast, and there are no other Soundproof Pokemon relevant enough to be used as a true counterargument here.


Also, completely irrelevant aside: using decimate to mean destroy is not improper usage. Language is ultimately defined by how its speakers use it, and the vast vast majority of english speakers use the word decimate to mean 'destroy' and have done so for hundreds of years; it hasn't meant 'to remove one tenth' for a very long time. Correcting people when they say this makes you seem like a pretentious twat.

I agree with everything you're saying but I would also like to point out that the LO variants of mmy are imposter fodders, which is generally why the plates are used to prevent getting counter-swept by an imposter. Although the LO earth power example for mega ttar in sand could have easily been replaced with earth plate judgment without changing the point of your argument:

252 SpA Earth Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I am going to stop answering those, because we are both repeating the same arguments over and over again.

First off, I am sorry, but this is proving my point:you are using the word "counter" inappropriately. mRay does not counter Mega gengar. You have to be able to reliably switch into it multiple times. Countering is a purely defensive notion, that mezns you completely handle any set, and for any given time: switching into A mon when your opponent has its counter means basically giving him a free switchin into said counter

On a sidenote, there was a counter to Lando-I, Cresselia.

You are saying that usage is not important, yet it is: having a 25% chance to lose to MMY if I carry just one check to it is inacceptable, while rayquaza with close combat is extremely rare(you mit be thinking of earth power, and it leads my to my next argument). Usage also means that saying "soundproof audino counters" is not sufficient when pioison attacks on MMY are more common than soundproof on M-Audino (an extreme example of this would be that guy on YT saying unban Mega luke from ubers, volcarona checks it if it doesnt have stone edge).

That isn't proving your point at all? Countering means being able to switch in on it and beat it 100% of the time, bar hax, which MRay does. Switching in multiple times is merely a nice bonus if it happens. Look here: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

If you replace mamoswine with, say, Garchomp, or if mamoswine could live an iron head+sucker punch! then you have your example of an offensive mon countering something.
On second thought, you're all intelligent, you can read it yourself and decide weather or not you think the conclusion I have drawn is the correct one.

As it happens, I am, in fact, thinking of close combat MRay, one of its best sets. It being rare is both literally and figuratively irrelevant to the conversation at hand. If anything, commonality of soundproof MAudino is also not an issue because it just mean that MMY isn't a big enough threat to people's teams for them to find it worthwhile.

I would be interested to know how protean lets offense shine, because MMY is quite impossible to revenge kill (unless you run 2/3 specific mons aka overcentralization). This is also the difference with mega gengar: king's shield forces a 50/50, it does not completely neuter -aters. And it does not protect you from oblivion rayquaza. Both of which protean ks does.


Finally, "strive for least impact" philosophy is not an uber-like conception to me (only ban extremely broken things) but simply an extension of avoiding complex bans(which is needed in a meta where everything is possible). If BH was just like uber, I doubt we would have banned parental bond or others, who do have common checks. Also, about the question of overcentralization, there is a massive difference between chansey/shedinja, for which preparing brings creativity and isnt that hard, and protean. The formers greatly shape the metagame, yet it is, as ive said before, a bit like SR: they are not over powered, and let new pokemon shine.

Protean lets offense shine by virtue of only being runnable on offense. Even if protean was broken, it still wouldn't invalidate offense as it requires offense to use. This means the only teams that could so easily counter offense would be offense themselves. It isn't just an extension of avoiding complex bans, either- in BH, broken checks broken. This is even stated in the OP- the goal is to keep everything in the tier if we can, and to ban as little as possible if we can'. Just wanting new mons to have a chance to shine isn't enough.

To me, it simply seems that protean fits the second reason as to why an ability should be banned, "the ability can so augment the capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question would be difficult or impossible to check or counter.". Protean does greatly augment the ´mon (as well demonstrated by one of the previous post), and protean is indeed both hard to counter AND to check. There is no viable revenge killer to MMY while there is to all the threats you mentionned, meaning that it is almost impossible to check.

That's only half the definition, though. The choice of item, moves, and mon has to be irrelevant. Chansey, for instance, requires a very specific combination- MMY, Secret Sword, and LO- and still isn't a guaranteed 2HKO, and still doesn't beat all Chansey sets. MMY can pick and choose what it beats, yes, but the more it deviates from what is good, the less it actually does. For instance, you can’t beat imposter and Shedinja with the same set, no matter what you do; you can’t beat imposter and FC Chans with the same set, you can’t beat Maudino and Chansey with the same set, even if you predict perfectly, without losing to just about everything else.*

I am having trouble understanding why an ability with literally 0 drawbacks that can be used on literally any mon with >150 offense and essentially outshines every other abilities in terms of wall breaking power isn't broken.

Here is a list of what protean can do


- 2HKO over 90% of the metagame with just Ghost/Fighting or Fairy/Ground coverage

- Can't be revenge killed by most forms of priority thanks to King's Shield

- Still has another moveslot to invalidate one of its very very few counters

- Slappable on almost any mon (such as M-Ray, and even M-Diancie) making perfect lures for their would be checks.

- Extremely easy to imposter proof with plates

- Very unpredictable and again, can be used with any mons with any moves.

Thank you :) This is well laid out, insightful, and detailed


- It can 2hko 90% of the metagame, but it misses out on the really important kills, like Chansey, Ho-Oh, Shedinja and Maudino, while at the same time missing out on important offensive OHKOs like Rayquaza (set 1) or MMY/MLati@s (set 2, plus Mlatias for set 1). Obviously not enough to make it bad or nonthreatening, but at the same time it is worth noting that it doesn't just steamroller everything. And what’s more? That all 90% status is entirely dependent on the skill of the player- a better opponent will still usually avoid that loss, or at least put it up in the air.

Can you find another ability that is as good as Protean?


No other ability gives as much flexibility, unpredictability and wallbreaking power as Protean.


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-306644884


This replay shows just how flexible and unpredictable Protean is. It can be used as an amazing lure and since it gains STAB for all of its moves, even uninvested SE coverage can 2HKO bulky walls such as Giratina and Yveltal (although this replay didn't show that but trust me, with just a couple of EVs into spatk that Mewtwo can 2HKO both of them)

There definitely isn’t any given ability that is as good as protean for all the mons that can use it. –ate, Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, and tinted lens to an extent come close though. Maybe Unaware or Prankster, but idrts. The more important question imo is whether it’s enough better than every other ability to be banworthy.

You seem to be a bit confused as to what the difference between a check and a counter is. A counter is a Pokemon that can consistently and reliably switch into the majority of a Pokemon's sets, and beat it 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that, while it generally wins 1v1, struggles to consistently switch in or loses to a common variant of the set. You said that Mega Ray is a counter to Mega Gengar, but this is not the case. While it is true that Mega Ray can switch into Mega Gengar and not be OHKO'd and then OHKO MGar in return with Espeed, it isn't a counter because it takes like 75% to do so. It can't switch in more than once, and it can't switch in at all if its taken a bit of prior damage. An example of a counter to Mega Gengar is PH Yveltal, which can easily take even boosted hits from Mega Gengar, recover off the damage, and OHKO with Knock Off. Yveltal can deal with Mega Gengar consistently and repeatedly; this is what makes it a counter, rather than a check.

What. Like seriously, what are you saying here? If you have another, more updated source I'll withdraw this (I’m actually legitimately interested outside of this, as it offends my sensibilities to have to link to a BW source) but in the article I linked that isn't at all a requirement. Admittedly my example wasn't all that amazing because stealth rocks are a thing, but with them not up/with a slightly weaker attacker MRay can very well function as a counter.

Now that thats cleared up, I want to look at Protean Mewtwo Y. You've talked before about M2Y's supposed counters, and I want to examine that. What counters Protean M2Y? First, lets evaluate the standard and most common set, Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/King's Shield/Boomburst|Quiver Dance|occasionally Sludge Bomb. Here's a list of every somewhat viable counter I could come up with.

Mega Audino can beat many variants of this set, but it loses to Sludge Bomb and it's very shaky against Boomburst sets.


252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 190-225 (46.4 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Additionally, SpDef spreads can be 2HKO'd by +1 Secret Sword.

Magic Guard SpDef Ho-Oh does generally counter this set, but it's 2HKO'd by +1 Judgment and can't OHKO M2Y in return, making it a bit shaky. In any case, SpDef Ho-oh is a fairly niche set that was literally devised specifically to beat M2Y. It would likely get very little usage if Protean M2Y weren't around, so the prevalence of this set I would argue is testament to Protean's centralisation of the meta more than anything.

Fur Coat Chansey is probably the most reliable counter to this set, but even that has to play 50/50s against Quiver Dance+Secret Sword sets. Regardless, FC Chansey is quite possibly the most passive, momentum-sucking Pokemon in the tier, and it really isn't the sort of Pokemon that most teams want to be running; the fact that so many offense and balance builds are slapping on FC Chansey just to cover Protean (and other miscellaneous threats) is honestly pretty gross and really says a lot about the sorry state of the current meta.

Shedinja does beat this, but we all know how unreliable Shed is a counter to anything.

Yveltal does decently, but depending on its spread it struggles to take Secret Sword or Boomburst, especially with Stealth Rock up.

The only decent RegenVest Pokemon that can take this on is Xerneas, as all of the others are either weak to Judgment or don't have the bulk to take Secret Sword. However, even this has to run a subpar Specially Defensive spread or it risks being 2HKOd by Judgment after rocks, and in any case this is an extremely uncommon set. And, similar to Ho-oh, this is a set that exists specifically because Protean M2Y is so prevalent, and as such I'm kinda reluctant to list it as a counter to it seeing as its a set that basically wouldn't be used if Protean weren't around.


That's it. Every other at-least-somewhat-viable Pokemon in the tier cannot stand up to Judgment + Secret Sword. That is a grand total of 6 Pokemon, all of which have to be at close to full health to avoid being 2HKO'd switching in, all of which can lose to fairly common coverage options, the majority of which are passive, defensive Pokemon that don't really fit onto most teams that well, 2 of which are used almost solely because they can counter M2Y, and one of which is Shedinja which is extremely unreliable. That is an extremely sparse and inconsistent collection of counters. And that's not even mentioning its other sets! The Life Orb set that bp scrub brought up beats basically all of these Pokemon, the Earth Plate set can beat quite a few, and the Tail Glow set that I used against InfernapeTropius11 in the BH Open here can beat most of M2Y's standard counters pretty easily too - in this replay it gets past an FC Chansey, a SpDef Ho-oh, and a MAudino, all of which were at full health.

Your replay isn't the greatest either, as you needed a crit to accomplish it (not even getting into how easily he could have messed you up with whirlwind or metal burst, or even parting shot had he carried one of them, or how sacred fire, his other fire stab option, doesn't make contact).

Now, you could argue that this is not something unique to Protean, that any offensive Pokemon in BH can beat its usual checks and counters with particular coverage moves, and you wouldn't be wrong. Mega Gengar can pack Sludge Bomb to beat MAudino, PH Kyogre can run King's Shield to avoid being revenge killed by -ates, etc. However, the difference between these examples and Protean is that these Pokemon have to sacrifice something to run these coverage options, whereas Protean - by virtue of the fact that it already beats like 95% of the tier with 3 moves - doesn't really lose any functionality when it slaps on some random coverage move. I'll use Mold Breaker Mega Gengar as an example. The standard set is Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/Pursuit/Shell Smash|Quiver Dance. If Mega Gengar wants to run Sludge Bomb to hit MAudino, it has to sacrifice an important move to do so - if it drops Pursuit then it can't trap Shed, if it drops its boosting move then it has trouble sweeping and can't break through a lot of mons that it would be able to otherwise, and if it drops Secret Sword then it loses the ability to get past Darks and Normals. There's an actual tradeoff there; MGar is sacrificing functionality in order to beat MAudino. On the other hand, M2Y doesn't sacrifice anything by slapping on Boomburst, or Sludge Bomb, or Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow, or Infestation, or Spore. It achieves what it needs to with just 3 moveslots, and the fourth is completely free, just icing on the cake. This gives Protean a truly unparalleled level of versatility, and this in my opinion is the crucial factor as to why its worthy of a ban.

This sorta belongs above as well, but I had other stuff I wanted to say there, too. If your MMY runs, for whatever reason, sludge bomb, you lose evrythign that makes MMY good- its ability to beat imposter. With sludge bomb, Chansey uses its ability to avoid the 2hko from even SE judgement and then turns to badly injure you with sludge bomb, to the point that 2 imp Chanseys will beat you (1 if it wins the ties). Face it- if you run these moves, you are sacrificing general utility, in the same way that MGar does! If there was an MMY set that didn't sacrifice utility to beat its checks and counters, it would simply be the MMY set and everything else wouldn't be worth talking about. MMY usually can achieve most of what it wants in 3 moves, but in running that fourth move it can mess up what it had before (like magma storm on spooky plate sets) or don't add much most of the time (like running tail glow is a useless slot if your opponent lacks a fc Chans to wall it unboosted, or if their Maudino is unaware like Kingslayer’s). This to me is a problem, as MMY with just its 3 moves isn’t broken.

To recap: Protean M2Y beats the vast majority of offensive Pokemon 1v1 due to its phenomenal speed tier, immense power and ability to run perfect coverage unimpeded by its typing. This forces every team to run defensive counters to it, because offensive checks are practically non-existent; yet M2Y has a pathetically small list of supposed counters, and every single one either loses to common variants, is extremely passive and thus poorly suited for most team archtypes, is mediocre outside of beating M2Y, or some combination of these. Additionally, M2Y can customise its set to effectively pick and choose its counters without hindering its ability to perform its usual roles, which overall means that teams generally have to run multiple checks and counters to M2Y to avoid just getting blown away by it (and even this is sometimes not enough). This is making the metagame extraordinarily centralised, it limits the potential for variety and creativity in teambuilding, and generally makes the tier less fun to play (I'm fully aware that that last one is a purely subjective judgement). And this isn't even to mention the other viable Protean mons: M2X, which does most of the same things as M2Y but with a worse speed tier and less ability to run anti-Imposter sets; Mega Latios and Mega Rayquaza, which are even harder to wall than M2Y at the cost of some speed; and other miscellaneous niche Protean mons which can be used to lure in specific defensive Pokemon. Protean has a stranglehold on the metagame, and tbh I can't wait to be rid of it.

I'd add a fourth category of easily pressured (FC Chans honestly only fits under this one, as even offensive teams usually need an imp proofer and it’s just that good), but tbh this is the single best argument for banning protean, and I don't really have much of a way to counter it. All I can really offer is that MMY almost always performs well, well below its theoretical potential (honestly I haven’t seen a single high ladder match where it has), and that it just doesn’t seem broken to me. I know that that’s also a bad metric, and thatobviously all the other things brought out before were worse or this would have been suspected first, but even within the current metagame banning protean is a huge departure from the mental image I have of BH. As bad as you are all saying protean is, I never have problems with it, it never annoys my teams in the slightest, and it doesn’t have the same impact as, say, chatter and assist did.

Now, some nitpicking:


Literally not one of these examples is relevant. Levitate steels are extremely uncommon and generally fairly mediocre, and they have been since the release of TArrows. PH Ho-oh is shit and nobody ever uses it - and in any case it gets clean OHKO'd by this M2Y set if rocks are up. bp scrub mentioned both Chansey and Shedinja as exceptions in his post. Max SpDef AV Regirock under sand is hardly a common threat in BH, and the fact that this mon has a very solid chance to 2HKO a fairly bulky, fully SpDef invested Pokemon at what is effectively +2 SpDef is a testament to how broken it is more than anything. Sand TTar is 2HKO'd (unless this one is AV too):


252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm also not getting why you dislike PH Ho-Oh so much. It requires the same support as shed, allowing it to work on those teams very well, has extra utility in beating MMY, beats imposters, is a nice special switch, a decent status sponge, a good Diancie impproofer (esp if you decide to run magma storm to take on opposing sheds. I've seen it used very well, although admittedly that might just be because I don't run SR.

In what world are levitate steels mediocre? PBlades is the go-to coverage on Diancie, and most mons with ground attacks are the same (I'm looking at you MMX, MRay). Tarrows is just too weak to be common on things other than, say, PDon, who already has v-create as the only nuke it needs.

The shed and Chansey were there for completeness in my list, I did see that he had them.

AV is the only reason to use sand TTar, so yes it’s AV. Still, even, say, a CB set would work by virtue of living a hit and OHKOing back (75% to KO in a neutral form like KS, much less if they moonblasted)

Cresselia is barely a relevant Pokemon in current BH, and its 2HKO'd by Boomburst anyway. The only really common Soundproof mon is MSlowbro, which gets nearly OHKO'd by Moonblast, and there are no other Soundproof Pokemon relevant enough to be used as a true counterargument here.

Yeah, Cresselia is barely relevant; it’s just the first that came to mind. Most any prankster *does* work here, though, especially since Priority status is by no means bad (also hurts –ate when it tries to hit coverage/BB, can help setup sweeping, Priority recovery is sweet, and it gives a select few pokemon stab special priority).

I’d also argue that Soundproof Don and Maudino are also relevant, but the former doesn’t actually beat MMY and the latter is just an extension of Maudino walling.

Also, completely irrelevant aside: using decimate to mean destroy is not improper usage. Language is ultimately defined by how its speakers use it, and the vast vast majority of english speakers use the word decimate to mean 'destroy' and have done so for hundreds of years; it hasn't meant 'to remove one tenth' for a very long time. Correcting people when they say this makes you seem like a pretentious twat.

Yeah IK, it’s just a stupid pet peeve of mine. Also it is still... ok I’ll actually shut up on it


*Bar luck; I’m sure speed ties or crits or misses or what have you could allow it.

almost completely irrelevant but because I was bored

Plase don’t take this as a serious addition to the discussion, and as I said in the title of this it’s just niche garbage, but hey. We must go nicher!

If we want to get even more counters for this pokemon, there are a couple more like MPert, specifically EVd PH Ogre, FC Dialga, anything with prankster that lives a hit, Specdef MRay (puke), specdef FC arc (doesn’t even need AV woo!), Specdef Zekrom/Mampharos (very specific ev spread there)(I guss it has volt switch lol), PH/Vest Reshiram, and assault vest shaymin/Suicune/manaphy.

 

[Betathunder]

That isn't proving your point at all? Countering means being able to switch in on it and beat it 100% of the time, bar hax, which MRay does. Switching in multiple times is merely a nice bonus if it happens. Look here: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters

As quote from the linked article: "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

As stated by MAMP, something that manually switches in and takes 75% is not a counter. That just means that MRay can take switch in once on an unboosted attack. Furthermore, if this situation was to occur again later in the game, MRay couldn't switch in without dying, thus ruling out the part where the definition states "if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time," since you cannot "still win every time" if said mon being used is dead.

Also, at the bottom of the document, another description from the Create-A-Pokemon project is provided, stating that if Pokemon A counters Pokemon B it fits 3 or more of the following criteria, while a check has only one or two:

• A can switch into B's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
• A can switch into B's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
• A can stall B indefinitely using its recovery options, either forcing B out or healing enough that A can alternate between recovery and attacking.
• A can OHKO or 2HKO B with one of A's standard moves.
• A can cripple B with a permanent status move without risking an OHKO.
• A can set up, lay down hazards, change the weather, or otherwise interfere with an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

As far as I'm aware, most MRay sets don't fit at least three of those descriptions, and as such is not a counter.

If you are going to quote sources, please understand what the source is stating, and be able to prove how that supports your argument. Also, I completely understand that this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not protean should or should not be banned, I just feel that all of this confusion should be cleared up as soon as possible, since there is clearly a misunderstanding between some of the people who are debating, and that can possibly affect some arguments. My apologies for interjecting like this, please carry on.

 

[E4 Flint]

Hi guys!
Phase 1 will be ending in approximately one hour. I shall leave it open for you to post a picture of your achieved reqs here for another half hour after that (yes, that effectively does mean you have a little extra time to scrape though if you wish). Again, you will need to post reqs for phase1 to partipicate in phase2, and ultimately the vote itself.

Details about phase 2 shall be posted within the next day.
Thanks!

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

The discussion was hard to understand, but i agree with Quantum Tesseract.
My 2 major points are;

1.)
MMY is 194 SpA / 140 Spe, in a tier with average 150 / 110
MMX is 190 Att / 130 Spe, in a tier with average 160 / 110

Protean is used on nothing else but the Mega Mewtwo pair.
Protean is useless if outspeed, outclassed if already decent typing and offers 0 defensive team synergy.

2.)
Counters are moveset specific by definition, since BH allows you to run every move there are no counters to anything.

In RBY Golem/Rhydon are seen as counters to Zapdos, but not Raichu.
Why ? Because Raichu has Surf and Zapdos has not.

 

[MAMP]

Protean is used on nothing else but the Mega Mewtwo pair.

While Protean is usually seen on the two Mewtwos, its completely untrue to say that nothing else uses it - Mega Latios, Mega Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A all run it very effectively as well, as do some more niche mons like Mega Diancie.

Protean is useless if outspeed, outclassed if already decent typing and offers 0 defensive team synergy.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Protean is 'useless' if its outsped, but in any case almost nothing outspeeds the common Protean users, and those that do have no chance of ever switching in and often have to contend with King's Shield. It isn't outclassed if the Pokemon already has a decent typing, as Pokemon like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Latios that already have solid offensive typings can run it very effectively. Even if it were, that wouldn't really be a relevant point; it doesn't matter if its not viable on every Pokemon when its so broken on the Pokemon that can viably run it. Also, it doesn't need to offer any defensive synergy; that's not the point of it.

2.)
Counters are moveset specific by definition, since BH allows you to run every move there are no counters to anything.

I explained why this argument doesn't really hold water when it comes to Protean in my previous post, but I'll quote it here in case you missed it.

Now, you could argue that this is not something unique to Protean, that any offensive Pokemon in BH can beat its usual checks and counters with particular coverage moves, and you wouldn't be wrong. Mega Gengar can pack Sludge Bomb to beat MAudino, PH Kyogre can run King's Shield to avoid being revenge killed by -ates, etc. However, the difference between these examples and Protean is that these Pokemon have to sacrifice something to run these coverage options, whereas Protean - by virtue of the fact that it already beats like 95% of the tier with 3 moves - doesn't really lose any functionality when it slaps on some random coverage move. I'll use Mold Breaker Mega Gengar as an example. The standard set is Spooky Plate Judgment/Secret Sword/Pursuit/Shell Smash|Quiver Dance. If Mega Gengar wants to run Sludge Bomb to hit MAudino, it has to sacrifice an important move to do so - if it drops Pursuit then it can't trap Shed, if it drops its boosting move then it has trouble sweeping and can't break through a lot of mons that it would be able to otherwise, and if it drops Secret Sword then it loses the ability to get past Darks and Normals. There's an actual tradeoff there; MGar is sacrificing functionality in order to beat MAudino. On the other hand, M2Y doesn't sacrifice anything by slapping on Boomburst, or Sludge Bomb, or Quiver Dance, or Tail Glow, or Infestation, or Spore. It achieves what it needs to with just 3 moveslots, and the fourth is completely free, just icing on the cake. This gives Protean a truly unparalleled level of versatility, and this in my opinion is the crucial factor as to why its worthy of a ban.

In RBY Golem/Rhydon are seen as counters to Zapdos, but not Raichu.
Why ? Because Raichu has Surf and Zapdos has not.

What exactly does this have to do with BH? RBY and BH are completely different metagames, and the example you gave isn't really comparable to Protean anyway.

 

[CactusCacti]

If you argue that something aint broken or bad for the meta game cause it doesnt always kill everything, but most of the stuff, remember;
When something does roll everything, it doesn't get suspected

it gets quick banned.

Keep that in mind when trying to argue about the flaws if the flaws are minimal/niche level, cause the thin line is there, if you catch my drift.

 

[Rumors]

While Protean is usually seen on the two Mewtwos, its completely untrue to say that nothing else uses it - Mega Latios, Mega Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A all run it very effectively as well, as do some more niche mons like Mega Diancie.

Perhaps also worth noting the Primals pre-ban also had Protean sets, on top of the ridiculous variety of sets they already had, Kyo-P especially. If they weren't banned, I'm sure we'd be hearing about them in this discussion.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Theres been too much back and forth for me to address every point made so i'm only going to respond to the ones i want to. (the definition of decimate is hardly relevant to Protean.)

I'm not really going to get into the lures argument because anything can be a "lure" in BH if it beats its expected counters. You could argue Diamond Storm Diancie and Sludge Wave Gengar are lures when all they do is run STAB they usually don't.

Expecting Protean Mega Mewtwo X to beat Fur Coat Giratina on the switch without boosts using a Physical is ridiculous Choice Band or not. Even P-Don needed Mold Breaker and Band to pull of that feat. MMx can take out Fur Coat Tina by going mixed anyway. So it goes without saying that i find your requirement that a physical set must beat fur coat Tina or a special set must beat Chansey to be pretty arbitrary because if they can beat those they probably have zero counters at all, which isn't something thats required to ban something in BH.

I also feel like you are overvaluing the ability to beat Imposter and Shed. I"m going to go back to P-Don again because he almost never beat Imposter 1v1 and usually couldn't beat Sheddy. Usually only Mold Breaker sets and hitting Shed with U-turn on the switch and trapping with a diffrenent Mold Breaker dealt with Sheddy. The most popular sets were choiced too so you had to be attacking for the first time and nail the predict just right. But letting Shed get in and get momentum once isn't a big deal for most teams. Thats why you run slow pivots. Its also not too hard to set hazards then U-turn into Protean and just nullify Shed counterplay.

As for Protean "missing out on really important kills" those mons you listed are pretty much the only counters that aren't really niche, so that doesn't really make a great case for it being not broken imo. Any given set has checks and counters. Protean isn't any different. Yes these mons are a big part of the metagame, and thats because they are the few things that semi reliably counter Protean and people need to run counters.

I also want to reiterate how bad of a matchup Quiver Dance/Tail Glow sets are for Chansey. We can safely assume that the MM2y is going to boost the turn Chansey switches in. If its a Tail Glow set Chansey just dies to Secret Sword. If its Quiver Dance +1 more than safely 2hkos (does up to 69%). Metal Bursting is very risky because if you mispredict and it boosts at +2 MM2y can do up to 91%, leaving Chansey dead to literally rocks or anything that comes in to revenge even if you manage to kill it with Metal Burst at +2. But Metal Bursting is a terrible idea when Mega Mewtwo y is at +2 because if you get the 50/50 wrong again you just get swept. Even at +1 Metal Bursting isn't very favorable because at 31% HP you can be easily revenged by things you would have otherwise countered. So best case scenario you Whirlwind them out without taking any damage (unless you set hazards first in which case you get minmal damage), which does nothing but waste 2 pp and give your opponent more momentum. You can't really expect that scenario to play out that well more then once or twice because you are bound to lose the 50/50 at some point.

Levitate Steels aren't just mediocre they are outright bad. Its a niche way to be immune to possible coverage when they can still be running coverage that kills you (Tarrows, Blue Flare, etc.) I haven't seen a top ladder levitate set in ages and thats unlikely to change. Oh and you get rekted by Magma Storm if they decide that beating Shed is more relevant then beating Flash Fire Aegi.

PH Ho-Oh is heavily disliked because its not unreasonable to have to counter something while Rocks are up. Its the same reason so many top players dislike relying on Shedinja. Yes its viable but most players perfer to run Magic Guard for good reasons.

AV is not the only reason to use Sand TTar or Sand Regirock lmao. Sand TTar and Regirock are -ate and GW Mega Ray counters. They are used because they can pressure with Diamond Storm and safely tank Oblivion Wings and Magma Storms for days while using Safety Goggles to ward off sleep. Yes Earth Power hits them hard but you can't win every battle. AV Sand isn't very good without recovery and it takes multiple mons to set up the Sand if you want Regenerator.

You seem to be interpreting the the criteria for Ability ban differently from us. The majority of the bh community i talk to believes that Protean does fit the second section of Ability Ban criteria. Personally i find the phrase " power originates from the ability" to be more relevant than "move set is irrelevant" which is very strongly worded and not completely true. Even Pure Power's moveset matters. A Pure Power set with Close Combat/Mega Horn/Power Whip/Gunk Shot is pretty easy to manage. Yet all these moves are at least somewhat viable Physical attacking moves. A moveset is never not relevant to the brokeness of the ability. I think the intent of that point is the set shouldn't rely on a certain combination of moves with that ability to be effective. Assist was banned and not Prankster because while Prankster gave Assist priority, Prankster sets without Assist weren't an issue. Protean isn't particuarly reliant on any one or two moves to function. I could see an argument for King's Shield since its almost mandatory but that speaks more to -ate's brokeness than Protean's reliance on the move. Parental Bond was far more reliant on a combination of moves (Super Fang+ Night Shade), than Protean is and it still got banned. Protean can also be used on a plethora of different offensive pokemon. I used to run Protean Tyranitar back in the XY era and it was good because type changes allowed it to take a hit from most Pokemon and retaliate with a OHKO. The Mega Mewtwos are simply the best users because outspeeding and OHKOing is just much better than taking a hit and OHKOing. As for the "difficult to counter part" i think Mamp, Callmelefty, The Guy Whos Many Alts, myself, and others have all demonstrated how difficult it is to counter pretty convincingly. i've also seen nothing that leaves me to believe my original post isn't 100% valid, so I can only conclude that there is no valid reason to not ban Protean.

 

[TheCommadore]

What we want from a metagame is something that is fun and interesting to play. For BH the main draw has always been the nearly limitless creativity, and diversity of viable sets. This is both what brings new players to our tier and what have kept BH as a permanent ladder with overwhelming support, while other ladders have either been removed or died in popularity. I know that coming up with to cool sets like Harvest Ho-oh and Rockarc (still rocking it in ORAS btw) and not have those sets outclassed are what kept me playing the tier over the years.

Since the EV change and release of ORAS these draws have gone to hell in a hand basket in short time. In my opinion we should ban the things that so strong in the meta that they are stifling the diversity of the tier. Previously these were the primal pokes. Right now these are protean and the –ate abilities. Since this suspect test is about protean I will be focusing in on that.

The existence of Protean in the tier drastically affects the viability of both offensive and defensive pokemon. It does this by outclassing almost all offensive pokemon and wallbreakers, while forcing teams to carry a very specific set of walls in order to have a chance at stopping it. Here are a few points of why I think that Protean is unhealthy for the meta.

Protean Stifles Viable Wallbreaking Abilities. Why would you use most other offensive abilities when Protean does the same job but better? Things like Tinted Lens, Adaptability, Sheer force, offensive Magic Guard, No Guard, weather abilities, and even most Poison Healers, are generally straight up worse than Protean. Protean nukes harder by allowing STAB V-Create and Boomburst, while giving significantly better coverage options. Why would one use fridge Kyu-W when Protean M2Y is faster, hits almost as hard, does not take up yoru only –ate poke, and trades a weakness to priority for near immunity? Why would one use PH Gigas when Protean M2X hits harder out of the gate, is significantly faster, has stronger priority, and has a much easier time getting past Gira? One would think bulk and status immunity would be good reasons, but from playing on the ladder it is clear that these are not priorities on offensive pokemon. The current meta is based on walls with these qualities slow passing to the nukers to make up for the inability of Ray, Diancie, Gengar, M2X, and M2Y to switch into attacks from each other.

Protean Focuses the Viable Offensive Pokemon. BH has a unique characteristic where only the type and stat spread of a poke is what matters. Well Protean narrows that down to only stats. This means that not only is protean clearly better than other abilities, but also there are clear best pokemon to be running it, the Mega Mewtwo forms. For most other abilities there is a range of pokemon that can run it without being outclassed by others, for example: In the poison heal meta Xerneas, Gyara, Ttar, Charizard-y, Gigas, and Ogre were all equally viable and countered each other in an interesting way. With protean this is not the case, there is almost no reason to use anything other than the M2 forms for protean. Even things like Latios with its stronger special attack and Alakazam with its greater speed are generally outclassed, because the M2 forms have the perfect combination of enough offenses to break the necessary walls, enough defenses to take fakespeed after KS, and enough speed to go before and KO non-priority attackers.

Protean Limits the Amount of Viable Walls. A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another and be a detriment to the opponent consistently multiple times in a match. Protean’s counters are shakier than a schoolboy getting his first kiss. I have run some quick calcs using the following common moves on a M2Y to show this:

What’s In The Box?

Spooky Judgment

Secret Sword

Boomburst

Magma Storm

Moonblast

Earth power

These moves come from the most used sets of Spooky Plate with Judgment/Secret Sword/Magma Storm or Boomburst/KS and [Item of choice] with Moonblast/Earth Power/Magma Storm or Boomburst/KS. With just these moves (and sometimes a little help from prior damage or LO) the common protean M2Y sets can muscle past its usual counters for easy 2HKOs. You don’t have to go out of your way with moves like Diamond Storm for Ho-oh or Sludge Wave for M-Audino to trample past your counters. Because protean M2Y can produce so many 2HKO’s or near 2HKO’s, any amount of prior damage, status effects, entry hazards, or even clever Magma Storm usage tilts the scales in M2Y’s favor. Also one should note for the calculations defenses of 252/252+/252+ with an assault vest where applicable were assumed as a best case scenario for the defenders.

I have neglected an analysis of physical Proteans like M2X or mixed Proteans like Ray, as they have no standard sets and vary wildly in terms of counters. In addition to this fur coat makes purely physical protean much simpler to counter outright.

Damage Calcs

Ho-oh

HO-OH

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 165-195 (39.6 - 46.8%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.4 - 60.8%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh: 142-169 (34.1 - 40.6%)

Registeel

Registeel

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%)

M-Audino

Mega Audino

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 168-199 (40.9 - 48.5%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 129-153 (31.4 - 37.3%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 117-138 (28.5 - 33.6%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 152-179 (37 - 43.6%)

FC Chans

Fur Coat Chansey

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 252-296 (35.7 - 42%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 328-385 (46.5 - 54.6%)

Aegislash

Aegislash

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%)

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%)

252 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%)

Protean Can Run any Coverage To Get Past Its Counters. Being able to run any move to stop one’s typical counters is not something new or revolutionary in BH, but Protean pokemon are uniquely good at it. An example would be PH Ttar running Iron Head to beat PH Xerneas. Iron Head hardly does any more damage than Diamond Storm 44% vs 41% max. For Protean this is vastly different, Thunderbolt allows for a clean 2HKO on Ho-oh whereas Boomburst does not. Protean pokemon are much more capable of running these anti-meta moves, and games can are won or lost based on this.

 

[E4 Flint]

Hello!
Thanks for everyone's participation in phase1, I was happy to see the activity. Onwards to phase 2!

Phase2: Starting at 11:59 PM May 10th CST USA until 11:59PM May 17th.

Protean will be disallowed for this phase!​

• You must create a new alt after the above date i.e. May 11th
• The alt must have "Con" anywhere in the name but together. See example below
  

  ✔ Con E4 Flint 
  X CovalentHologram

• The requirements will be done on the basis of COIL. The B value for this phase is 10, and the COIL requirement is again 2770. The increase in the B value means it will take you a few more games to reach the same COIL as last round. Here is how it works. It will take you N number of games to get reqs if you have a certain GXE. Some sample benchmarks are given below.
  

  GXE    N
  100    17
  90    27
  80    48
  70    643

  Note: You will not be able to vote if your GXE is below 70
• To find out for yourself how much games it should take you, enter your personal GXE into the one in the equation here
• After you have made reqs, you will post proof in the same post that you had made in the identification thread. You will not be able to vote if you had not in the first round.
• You will make your vote in a separate voter thread similar to the GKR voting thread which I will again post when created. This will likely be after phase 2 has ended.

 

[E4 Flint]

I am going to clarify a few points that are made in the thread, though I will not make arguments for or against the actual matter myself.

Finally, "strive for least impact" philosophy is not an uber-like conception to me (only ban extremely broken things) but simply an extension of avoiding complex bans(which is needed in a meta where everything is possible). If BH was just like uber, I doubt we would have banned parental bond or others, who do have common checks. Also, about the question of overcentralization, there is a massive difference between chansey/shedinja, for which preparing brings creativity and isnt that hard, and protean. The formers greatly shape the metagame, yet it is, as ive said before, a bit like SR: they are not over powered, and let new pokemon shine.

You have made some excellently reasoned posts but I just wanted to fix this. "Strive for least impact" is for both of the things you have mentioned i.e. to make sure only what needs to be absolutely banned is what's removed and to prevent complex bans. These are not mutually exclusive. I recognize now that Parental Bond, though I argued vigorously otherwise at the time, has no common checks and fits into the 'extremely broken' category.

You seem to be interpreting the the criteria for Ability ban differently from us. The majority of the bh community i talk to believes that Protean does fit the second section of Ability Ban criteria. Personally i find the phrase " power originates from the ability" to be more relevant than "move set is irrelevant" which is very strongly worded and not completely true. Even Pure Power's moveset matters. A Pure Power set with Close Combat/Mega Horn/Power Whip/Gunk Shot is pretty easy to manage. Yet all these moves are at least somewhat viable Physical attacking moves. A moveset is never not relevant to the brokeness of the ability. I think the intent of that point is the set shouldn't rely on a certain combination of moves with that ability to be effective.

This is correct. Parental Bond did not need Super Shade Fang to be broken, and neither does Huge Power for nearly any set. The phrasing I have set up is to simply prevent complex clauses such as "Pure Power is legal on sets with attacks under a base power of 80" or "only special moves" etc. Also, while I said that my guidelines are not absolute and there is some flexibility, it is safe to say that if something meets this criteria, then it is probably deserving of taking a look at, which is why I launched this suspect.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

As for Protean "missing out on really important kills" those mons you listed are pretty much the only counters that aren't really niche, so that doesn't really make a great case for it being not broken imo. Any given set has checks and counters. Protean isn't any different. Yes these mons are a big part of the metagame, and thats because they are the few things that semi reliably counter Protean and people need to run counters.

I also want to reiterate how bad of a matchup Quiver Dance/Tail Glow sets are for Chansey. We can safely assume that the MM2y is going to boost the turn Chansey switches in. If its a Tail Glow set Chansey just dies to Secret Sword. If its Quiver Dance +1 more than safely 2hkos (does up to 69%). Metal Bursting is very risky because if you mispredict and it boosts at +2 MM2y can do up to 91%, leaving Chansey dead to literally rocks or anything that comes in to revenge even if you manage to kill it with Metal Burst at +2. But Metal Bursting is a terrible idea when Mega Mewtwo y is at +2 because if you get the 50/50 wrong again you just get swept. Even at +1 Metal Bursting isn't very favorable because at 31% HP you can be easily revenged by things you would have otherwise countered. So best case scenario you Whirlwind them out without taking any damage (unless you set hazards first in which case you get minmal damage), which does nothing but waste 2 pp and give your opponent more momentum. You can't really expect that scenario to play out that well more then once or twice because you are bound to lose the 50/50 at some point.

Levitate Steels aren't just mediocre they are outright bad. Its a niche way to be immune to possible coverage when they can still be running coverage that kills you (Tarrows, Blue Flare, etc.) I haven't seen a top ladder levitate set in ages and thats unlikely to change. Oh and you get rekted by Magma Storm if they decide that beating Shed is more relevant then beating Flash Fire Aegi.

I definitively agree that those are the only counters that are any good (The ones I listed below are the only other ones, and they are complete garbage), but saying that they are only good because of Protean isn't true. Chansey is the greatest special wall in existence (and a decent physical one, too), while Maudino is Maudino and Shedinja has been a thing for longer than Protean. Ho-Oh is a new pick, for sure, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing- it's just an adaptation slotted on certain offensive teams with a glaring protean weakness, yes, but it isn't useless without it and checks/counters a bunch of other threats as well, similarly to how Jellicent behaves with Keldeo.
I'd like to counter, somewhat, with the fact that Tail Glow MMY is just as bad for the player as it is for Chansey. What you just did was set up to +3 on an insanely powerful special attacker that can't be revenged... while not being imposterproof anymore. Judgment does an easy 69% even in the steel type, and using that makes you easily ohko'd by secret sword. I mean, if you know their sets beforehand via scouting you can be safe, but anything else seems to be just asking to be screwed over by what is still far and away the most common chansey for a bit of utility, so I'm not sure why its really relevant (also unaware maudino, but that's not really common enough from anyone else to be a major concern)

I've seen a bunch of levitate, and while its a bit underwhelming due to my own preference for fire coverage its far from bad, especially since it is great at Imposterproofing in addition to its anti-protean role. I mean, yes its often worse than flash fire, but that's not an automatic disqualification from being good.

You seem to be interpreting the the criteria for Ability ban differently from us. The majority of the bh community i talk to believes that Protean does fit the second section of Ability Ban criteria. Personally i find the phrase " power originates from the ability" to be more relevant than "move set is irrelevant" which is very strongly worded and not completely true. Even Pure Power's moveset matters. A Pure Power set with Close Combat/Mega Horn/Power Whip/Gunk Shot is pretty easy to manage. Yet all these moves are at least somewhat viable Physical attacking moves. A moveset is never not relevant to the brokeness of the ability. I think the intent of that point is the set shouldn't rely on a certain combination of moves with that ability to be effective. Assist was banned and not Prankster because while Prankster gave Assist priority, Prankster sets without Assist weren't an issue. Protean isn't particuarly reliant on any one or two moves to function. I could see an argument for King's Shield since its almost mandatory but that speaks more to -ate's brokeness than Protean's reliance on the move. Parental Bond was far more reliant on a combination of moves (Super Fang+ Night Shade), than Protean is and it still got banned. Protean can also be used on a plethora of different offensive pokemon. I used to run Protean Tyranitar back in the XY era and it was good because type changes allowed it to take a hit from most Pokemon and retaliate with a OHKO. The Mega Mewtwos are simply the best users because outspeeding and OHKOing is just much better than taking a hit and OHKOing. As for the "difficult to counter part" i think Mamp, Callmelefty, The Guy Whos Many Alts, myself, and others have all demonstrated how difficult it is to counter pretty convincingly. i've also seen nothing that leaves me to believe my original post isn't 100% valid, so I can only conclude that there is no valid reason to not ban Protean.

To me, "moveset doesn't matter" means that it isn't reliant on one or two sets- that a specific moveset isn't needed to use it effectively, not that every given combination will work (otherwise you might have the most broken non-ate ability in the world but get stuck with boomburst+secret sword+techno blast+kings shield and just get walled by ghosts. Protean is a definite border case even here (has almost enough options, but as you said KS is absolutely required, and the other moves only fit together in very specific ways, or in how spooky judgement can only go with boomburst an secret sword).

As for your comment o n your original post, I'll give that a shot. Hopefully I'm doing it justice.

Its always important to make sure your more theoretical and paper based arguments hold up in a practical environment. The points i made above need to actually apply to the standard sets. The Standard Protean Mega Mewtwo Y sets are Moonblast / Earth Power/ Boomburst / King's Shield with Life orb and Judgement / Secret Sword / Quiver Dance / King's Shield with Spooky Plate. These both require different counters. The first set is only reliably countered by Chansey and some Assault Vest things. Thats it. The most standard, basic set, 2hkos almost the whole meta. The second set gives up some of the pure wall breaker power for the ability to sweep with Quiver dance and 1v1 Imposter. These sets can only be countered by Ho-Oh, Mega Audino, and Yveltal. Yes i didn't mention Shed for either. Its too easy to Pursuit trap Shed or set up rocks before pivoting to MM2y. And yes this isn't literally the only counters because this is BH and you can customize a mon like Xern to specifically beat one of these sets. But customizing a set just to beat one other set isn't too healthy if that set isn't inherently good. There is also a big issue with having 2 sets that are so similar but basically require two different counters. Say I have a Fur Coat Chansey and a defensive Poison Heal Mega Audino to counter the main Protean sets. i switch in Chansey on MM2y, and it Secret Swords. I'm pretty sure its a quiver Judgement set, so i switch to Mega Audino. It promptly unloads a Boomburst and severely damages Audino. Now i have to sack Audino to get Chansey back in safely, all because my opponent ran Boomburst over Quiver Dance, which is not at all uncommon. Basically since the two sets are so similar its extremely difficult to make the optimal play without having already scouted the set with imposter. And these are only the most common sets. The Guy who has Many Alts made a set with Chill Drive Techno Blast, Close Combat, and Gunk Shot to beat Steel+Audino+Tina Cores. There is so much practical potential for protean sets.

Banning the Mega Mewtwos would make Protean slightly less difficult to deal with, but banning Pokemon is supposed to be a last resort in BH because the Pokemon are just Stats+typing. Considering what Protean does, the Mega Mewtwos are just a statline. If they were banned Protean would just move on to Mega Gengar for special sets and something like Mega Gallade for physical. Mega Gengar would very likely still be an issue, as it already runs judgement/secret sword sets to great effectiveness. Its impossible to say for sure, but its likely we would have to ban Mega Gengar as well, when in reality we should have just banned Protean. And yes both Mewtwos can beat would be counters with coverage and boosting abilities but thats pretty much the reality of the current meta. Game Freak just gave us too much power creep and not enough bulk. Therefore i can only conclude that the best option for BH going forward is to ban Protean.

TL;DR

• Protean is inherently broken because it removes the opportunity cost of running full coverage sets. With STAB on anything you can have powerful coverage attacks that also wallbreak fat neutrals.
• The combination of Protean abuser's high speed, the defensive utility of King's Shield, and the power of all STAB coverage makes beating a Protean an absurdly difficult feat. It takes little skill to make and use an effective Protean set.
• Protean still has more potential in the right hands. Spooky Plate sets were rare before GK ban and now dominate the meta. Something similar to this could easily happen again.
• If we banned the Mewtwos and Mega Ray, then Mega Gengar and others would replace them and still be extremely effective. Therefore Protean needs to be banned.

If we just mention those two sets, then I come to the opposite conclusion- That protean is not, in fact, broken. In addition to more walls to that set existing- Some Maudino, PH Ho-Oh (ik you don't consider this reliable), imposter blissey (a good goggles set because it bluffs spooky plate very, very well), Prankster Giratina/Registeel(more but those are the best ones)- and being unwallable requires you to predict absolutely perfectly for... the potential to break things. As far as wallbreakers go, why would I go for that? With 1 team slot Palia breaks every stall build period, which means that the real argument pro protean ban is its ability VS offense. Even though you dismiss shedinja, getting walled by it really kills momentum, especially on offense. I mean, yes you can trap, but that can cause a lot of doubling out even when you have the advantage and they can just as easily trap Mgar and then wall you forever. It isn't as cut and dried as MMY+MGar=Win.
Furthermore, while both MMY sets together can beat a lot, each one has common, A-S ranked counters, to the point that it isn't really bad to be stacking them. FC chans is stall's bread and butter, maudino is Maudino, Ho-Oh is a decent pick, shed is the best mon for certain archetypes... it does speak of overcentralization, but its a managable centralization. I'd also like to point out that some degree of heavy centralization is a good thing, as that way you don't have to prepare for literally everything.

What we want from a metagame is something that is fun and interesting to play. For BH the main draw has always been the nearly limitless creativity, and diversity of viable sets. This is both what brings new players to our tier and what have kept BH as a permanent ladder with overwhelming support, while other ladders have either been removed or died in popularity. I know that coming up with to cool sets like Harvest Ho-oh and Rockarc (still rocking it in ORAS btw) and not have those sets outclassed are what kept me playing the tier over the years.

Since the EV change and release of ORAS these draws have gone to hell in a hand basket in short time. In my opinion we should ban the things that so strong in the meta that they are stifling the diversity of the tier. Previously these were the primal pokes. Right now these are protean and the –ate abilities. Since this suspect test is about protean I will be focusing in on that.

The existence of Protean in the tier drastically affects the viability of both offensive and defensive pokemon. It does this by outclassing almost all offensive pokemon and wallbreakers, while forcing teams to carry a very specific set of walls in order to have a chance at stopping it. Here are a few points of why I think that Protean is unhealthy for the meta.

Protean Stifles Viable Wallbreaking Abilities. Why would you use most other offensive abilities when Protean does the same job but better? Things like Tinted Lens, Adaptability, Sheer force, offensive Magic Guard, No Guard, weather abilities, and even most Poison Healers, are generally straight up worse than Protean. Protean nukes harder by allowing STAB V-Create and Boomburst, while giving significantly better coverage options. Why would one use fridge Kyu-W when Protean M2Y is faster, hits almost as hard, does not take up yoru only –ate poke, and trades a weakness to priority for near immunity? Why would one use PH Gigas when Protean M2X hits harder out of the gate, is significantly faster, has stronger priority, and has a much easier time getting past Gira? One would think bulk and status immunity would be good reasons, but from playing on the ladder it is clear that these are not priorities on offensive pokemon. The current meta is based on walls with these qualities slow passing to the nukers to make up for the inability of Ray, Diancie, Gengar, M2X, and M2Y to switch into attacks from each other.

Simply put, while you have good arguments I can't see this as one of them at all. Weather, adaptability, and tinted les are much more powerful than protean (weather Palkia, for instance, archives the feat of 2hkoing the entire metagame, bar none, after rocks with just one move).
The real reason to use PH regigigas is imposterproof and wallbreaking in one set, which no protean provides except MMY. If your goal is solely damage, than any MMX set will outdo any regigigas because of a higher attack stats. Meanwhile, a lot of your problem Pokemon aren't protean, namely Diancie and gengar, as well as most MRay. Banning protean won't help at all with these problems or come close to solving it, respectively, so I'm not sure why this is a pro-ban argument

Protean Limits the Amount of Viable Walls. A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another and be a detriment to the opponent consistently multiple times in a match. Protean’s counters are shakier than a schoolboy getting his first kiss. I have run some quick calcs using the following common moves on a M2Y to show this:

What’s In The Box?

Spooky Judgment

Secret Sword

Boomburst

Magma Storm

Moonblast

Earth power

These moves come from the most used sets of Spooky Plate with Judgment/Secret Sword/Magma Storm or Boomburst/KS and [Item of choice] with Moonblast/Earth Power/Magma Storm or Boomburst/KS. With just these moves (and sometimes a little help from prior damage or LO) the common protean M2Y sets can muscle past its usual counters for easy 2HKOs. You don’t have to go out of your way with moves like Diamond Storm for Ho-oh or Sludge Wave for M-Audino to trample past your counters. Because protean M2Y can produce so many 2HKO’s or near 2HKO’s, any amount of prior damage, status effects, entry hazards, or even clever Magma Storm usage tilts the scales in M2Y’s favor. Also one should note for the calculations defenses of 252/252+/252+ with an assault vest where applicable were assumed as a best case scenario for the defenders.

I have neglected an analysis of physical Proteans like M2X or mixed Proteans like Ray, as they have no standard sets and vary wildly in terms of counters. In addition to this fur coat makes purely physical protean much simpler to counter outright.

Magma storm will never be run with spooky judgement, and magma storm isn't the usual or best pick with moonblast or EP. Other than that, not much to say here- it's the calcs that are important.

Damage Calcs

HO-OH

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 165-195 (39.6 - 46.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 214-253 (51.4 - 60.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh: 142-169 (34.1 - 40.6%)

Registeel

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%)

Mega Audino

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 190-225 (46.3 - 54.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 168-199 (40.9 - 48.5%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 129-153 (31.4 - 37.3%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 117-138 (28.5 - 33.6%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 152-179 (37 - 43.6%)

FC Chans

Fur Coat Chansey

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 252-296 (35.7 - 42%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 328-385 (46.5 - 54.6%)

Aegislash

Aegislash

252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%)
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%)
252 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%)

I'm not sure what specific point these calcs are justifying, so I'm mostly going to leave this blank for now, but if like to note for the future that I. Find some of the calcs questionable (like why did you pick aegi over, say, maggron, when maggron does a much better job of walling (ff sets only fear ep, the apparently mediocre levitate sets only fearing magma storm), and I question why there are no poison healers, fur coats not named Chansey, flash fires or leftovers to be found.

Protean Can Run any Coverage To Get Past Its Counters. Being able to run any move to stop one’s typical counters is not something new or revolutionary in BH, but Protean pokemon are uniquely good at it. An example would be PH Ttar running Iron Head to beat PH Xerneas. Iron Head hardly does any more damage than Diamond Storm 44% vs 41% max. For Protean this is vastly different, Thunderbolt allows for a clean 2HKO on Ho-oh whereas Boomburst does not. Protean pokemon are much more capable of running these anti-meta moves, and games can are won or lost based on this.

I'm just going to say this right now- you picked a Mediocre example here, and it colors the rest of your argument, as if you can deal with part of it it looks like you've dealt with all of it. I'm going to do both, but...
Not only do Gunk Shot/Meteor Mash/Gear Grind exist (and more powerful neutral moves, like V-Create), and MMY would/should never run thunderbolt for that over Psystrike or Steam Eruption.
Secondly, the more important part- the reason for that is base power. Protean boomburst, neutral, is 140, while SE tbolt is 180. That's just common sense- a super effective hit is stronger than a neutral one. The fact that it goes from a 3hko to a 2hko on coverage is because the first move is coverage itself, and that it was close to a 2hko anyway. The percentage increase isn't really that much even so.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

What about non Protean ladder ?

The stall team archtype has not been touched.
But I think Protean gave them important revengekill opportunities.

It was eaay using a Protean MMY on any team and abuse Ghost types power.
Without Protean it looks like this;

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 302-356 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Haunter Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 306-362 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I guess ppl will say requirements 2 were harder than 1. :)

 

[CallMeLefty]

Palkia doesnt "destroy stall period" whatsoever. It need specs AND SR (which isnt exactly easy considering how common magic bounce is in stall) in order to break through a burnt chansey, and locking allows imposter to easily switchin, as well as any dragon type. Poison heal mega audino can also switch in.
Even if it did, palkia is far inferior to MMY due to the latter's way higher speed and coverage, as well as lack of choice lock. Also palkia is really underwhelming against balance, which is too bad considering balance is 80% of what is played in BH.
Finally, the comparison is irrelevant because MMY is not meant to break stall. It is the only playstyle that can afford to run the multiple walls required to wall protean.

Generally speaking, saying stall is more viable because protean is banned is wrong: I have heard from great stall BH players (such as Anna says hi) that protean ban didnt change their way of playing stall whatsoever, for the reasons stated above.
Even if it did, I do not understand how it would make reqs harder to get (especially considering stall is extremely hard to use in BH ) as it is actually great to get reqs (hence quag and amoonguss OU rise due to suspect test).

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Palkia doesnt "destroy stall period" whatsoever. It need specs AND SR (which isnt exactly easy considering how common magic bounce is in stall) in order to break through a burnt chansey, and locking allows imposter to easily switchin, as well as any dragon type. Poison heal mega audino can also switch in.
Even if it did, palkia is far inferior to MMY due to the latter's way higher speed and coverage, as well as lack of choice lock. Also palkia is really underwhelming against balance, which is too bad considering balance is 80% of what is played in BH.
Finally, the comparison is irrelevant because MMY is not meant to break stall. It is the only playstyle that can afford to run the multiple walls required to wall protean.

Generally speaking, saying stall is more viable because protean is banned is wrong: I have heard from great stall BH players (such as Anna says hi) that protean ban didnt change their way of playing stall whatsoever, for the reasons stated above.
Even if it did, I do not understand how it would make reqs harder to get (especially considering stall is extremely hard to use in BH ) as it is actually great to get reqs (hence quag and amoonguss OU rise due to suspect test).

As it happens, it only needs the rock, and mold breaker is a similar, extremely relevant thing. SR isn't very hard to set up.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - and that's fully specially invested. It also has an 18% chance without rocks, which is just incredible, as rocks aren't the only chip in the game, and the more common fur coat set gets 2hkod- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Chansey, Shedinja, PH Max Spd Giratina, opposing specdef/hp Palkia are the only things that can switch in period. Of those, all die after rocks, and with spacial rend as your second attack you can remove the second two. if shedinja walling Mewtwo isn't grounds for it not breaking it, then Palkia does it much better, with absolutely no prediction neccesary at all. You don't need to click the right attack, or bring in your chansey on a earth power- you just sack things. It also racks up kills vs balance very, very easily, unless you do something stupid like bring it in on their Diancie.
I'm not sure what quag/amoongus have to do with this, but I'll just assume its relevant.

As far as the non-protean ladder, I would definitely say that stall is less viable because PH is more of a thing. with the exception of my numerous screwups involving Anna using entrainment in our most recent battle, that stall team just gets flat out 6-0'd by PH TTar, which was merely ok before. Now that protean is gone, its one of the top four offensive mons. All told, protean was a lot of the reason why these wallbreakers werent good- they just got turned into so much filler. Now that its gone, that kind of offensive pressure just doesn't exist.

 

[Uselesscrab]

As far as wallbreakers go, why would I go for that? With 1 team slot Palia breaks every stall build period, which means that the real argument pro protean ban is its ability VS offense

What is the relevance of this Palkia point? I'm really struggling to understand it. It actually has nothing to do with Protean. Just because something else is good at breaking through stall does not make Protean's ability to do so (nor its ability to destroy offense) any less potent or noteworthy. While Protean may not be the #1 best stall-breaking ability (far from it, in fact), isn't it the combination of its stall-breaking and offense-defeating potential that we should really be considering here?

In general, many of the weird analogies that are being brought up by both sides of this argument, especially the OU ones (which are hard to follow and really hold no bearing on how we should decide in this suspect), do little more than make posts less credible and more confusing. That inexplicable Quagsire/Amoonguss mention, for instance.

One more thing...

As far as the non-protean ladder, I would definitely say that stall is less viable because PH is more of a thing. with the exception of my numerous screwups involving Anna using entrainment in our most recent battle, that stall team just gets flat out 6-0'd by PH TTar, which was merely ok before. Now that protean is gone, its one of the top four offensive mons. All told, protean was a lot of the reason why these wallbreakers werent good- they just got turned into so much filler. Now that its gone, that kind of offensive pressure just doesn't exist.

One doesn't really decide against banning an ability because they don't like the metagame as much after it's been banned, first of all. We primarily have to focus on the metagame at hand.

You're basically saying that it's too hard to apply offensive pressure to Poison Heal users in the absence of Protean, but as I see it, nothing has changed in the matchup between a Mewtwo and a Tyranitar. You still have to get in a Mewtwo immediately to have a hope of checking it; otherwise Tyranitar can set up a Shift Gear. The only difference is that a Mega Mewtwo that doubles in predicting a Mega Tyranitar switch (not really a situation I've found myself in too frequently) is forced to use a Fighting-type move over a simply 2x-effective move like Earth Power or Precipice Blades (which isn't that big of a deal imo).

And to connect a stall team being unable to deal with Mega Tyranitar to Protean somehow needing to stick around to check Mega Tyranitar is ridiculous. First of all, stall doesn't run Protean users in the first place. Second of all, my apologies to Anna says hi, but a stall team being unable to deal with one of the premier threats in the metagame is a drastic oversight, a drastic oversight that should not be twisted into a political statement on whether or not Protean is broken (???). Third, stall is actually the best playstyle to deal with Poison Heal because of its frequent use of Whirlwind, Topsy-Turvy, Entrainment and its own Poison Heal users like Mega Audino. Poison Heal is actually better against bulky offense, in my opinion.

 

[CallMeLefty]

Three little things:
1) Anna Says Hi Stall is not weak to Tytar. Flash fire Entertainment Venu beats tytar.
2) I was talking about quagsire and amoonguss as proof that stall is used a lot to get reqs: those are major components of stall, and Hoopa suspect took place last month.
3) To bring back the question about the "philosophy" of the metagame, I think it would be good to, sooner or later, define the flexibility towards limiting bans. I would really be disappointed if BH ended up becoming a ORAS uber-like with primal groudon requiring you to run tons of check for it, and being a must-have for any team.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

What is the relevance of this Palkia point? I'm really struggling to understand it. It actually has nothing to do with Protean. Just because something else is good at breaking through stall does not make Protean's ability to do so (nor its ability to destroy offense) any less potent or noteworthy. While Protean may not be the #1 best stall-breaking ability (far from it, in fact), isn't it the combination of its stall-breaking and offense-defeating potential that we should really be considering here?

In general, many of the weird analogies that are being brought up by both sides of this argument, especially the OU ones (which are hard to follow and really hold no bearing on how we should decide in this suspect), do little more than make posts less credible and more confusing. That inexplicable Quagsire/Amoonguss mention, for instance.

I'm not being very clear, am I.
If many things can 2hko the metagamer-and palkia isn't the only one, Kyogre does the exact same damage but with 1 less stab and less speed, Reshiram/Char-Y does the same with fire (sadly flash fire is viable), Gengar does that... if stallbreaking is common, then one mon having it becomes far less important or viability altering. While the offensive points do stand, offense is also the one most able to run those RKers that do take on MMY regardless of the set.

One more thing...

One doesn't really decide against banning an ability because they don't like the metagame as much after it's been banned, first of all. We primarily have to focus on the metagame at hand.

You're basically saying that it's too hard to apply offensive pressure to Poison Heal users in the absence of Protean, but as I see it, nothing has changed in the matchup between a Mewtwo and a Tyranitar. You still have to get in a Mewtwo immediately to have a hope of checking it; otherwise Tyranitar can set up a Shift Gear. The only difference is that a Mega Mewtwo that doubles in predicting a Mega Tyranitar switch (not really a situation I've found myself in too frequently) is forced to use a Fighting-type move over a simply 2x-effective move like Earth Power or Precipice Blades (which isn't that big of a deal imo).

And to connect a stall team being unable to deal with Mega Tyranitar to Protean somehow needing to stick around to check Mega Tyranitar is ridiculous. First of all, stall doesn't run Protean users in the first place. Second of all, my apologies to Anna says hi, but a stall team being unable to deal with one of the premier threats in the metagame is a drastic oversight, a drastic oversight that should not be twisted into a political statement on whether or not Protean is broken (???). Third, stall is actually the best playstyle to deal with Poison Heal because of its frequent use of Whirlwind, Topsy-Turvy, Entrainment and its own Poison Heal users like Mega Audino. Poison Heal is actually better against bulky offense, in my opinion.

Obviously not liking it isn't enough, and I regret that choice of words, but if we don't use the no protean ladder to figure out what the meta will be like afterwords then why do we have it? I've been under the impression that that's what it is for.

I wrote this then realized that this part of the convo mostly was off topic

Something important has changed in the matchup between a TTar and a Mewtwo, and thats the fact that mewtwo is generally a lot worse now. Not only is it less common and viable in general, its also immensely less threatening to Tyranitar's teammates should it get outpredicted. Mewtwo has gone from being the best pokemon in the meta to a good one, and while that isn't a bad thing, its definitely something to note. Its also important to realize this-
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO. Running a 4x se move doesn't mean you automatically win anymore, and you cant change type to avoid sucker punch.
Stall teams not being able to go around Mega TTar isn't the issue- it's that now pokemon like TTar are now dozens of times more viable, as is every pokemon that was "just too slow". This is very major for stall, because it means teams have more slots to run answers, its answers are more viable, and there is a ton less centralization.

Three little things:
1) Anna Says Hi Stall is not weak to Tytar. Flash fire Entertainment Venu beats tytar.
2) I was talking about quagsire and amoonguss as proof that stall is used a lot to get reqs: those are major components of stall, and Hoopa suspect took place last month.
3) To bring back the question about the "philosophy" of the metagame, I think it would be good to, sooner or later, define the flexibility towards limiting bans. I would really be disappointed if BH ended up becoming a ORAS uber-like with primal groudon requiring you to run tons of check for it, and being a must-have for any team.

1. It does beat it 1v1. However, it cannot switch in, and its the closest Anna has to an answer to TTar.
2. Stall wasn't used to get reks, though- these people were not the people posting in this thread- I would have named them otherwise. They didn't have the con in their name.
3. That already was defined, though, in the first OP's no less.

 

[Anna says hi]

I've actually been experimenting with different ways to cover my huge weaknesses to various PH setup sweepers. Aside from that, what place does discussing my team have in the suspect discussion?

Seeing what the no-protean ladder looks like, I'm now more ready to definitively state my vote towards a ban, as Protean is both inherently broken and does not contribute to a balanced metagame or prevent unhealthy centralization in any way.

 

[CallMeLefty]

I'm not being very clear, am I.
1. It does beat it 1v1. However, it cannot switch in, and its the closest Anna has to an answer to TTar.
2. Stall wasn't used to get reks, though- these people were not the people posting in this thread- I would have named them otherwise. They didn't have the con in their name.
3. That already was defined, though, in the first OP's no less.

1)I dont see how venusaur cant switch in, as defensive Mvenusaur is not 2HKOed... anyway this has no relevance.
2)I wasnt really answering you about stall, i was mainly referring to gmu pokeboss9 as he said stall would make it harder to get reqs which is not really true.
3) I do know the policy was fixed in the first OP, however Flint said earlier that he did have a certain "flexibility" about it, and it is was we may want to discuss once protean has been handled.

Regarding PH, I do feel like it is a really good ability that allows for a great role packing, and tytar is by far the best user. But discussions about this belong to the "ladder" thread i believe (unless suspecting is required, but I highly doubt it).

 

[E4 Flint]

Hello all
Phase2 will be coming to a close in about one hour. You must edit your post in the Identification Thread no later than half an hour after that.
I shall post the main voting thread after validating all of the alts and forming the list of eligible voters, which will notify you.
Thanks for your participation! I was pretty happy with the activity and discussion going on and thought the suspect process was a great success. If you do have any feedback for me, feel free to post on my profile or pm me.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

My Protean overview:


personal stuff first;
I did not use Protean because i think its not overpowered, however i agree its a solid ability.
I decided to gather some stats, atleast for myself.
I checked replays to note teams of those who gained requirements.
Yes both ladders felt different but nobody really explained or even talked about it.


Some info about the data;

31/34 team are covered.
Teravolt and Turboblaze are listed as Mold Breaker.
3 players are not included as there was no replay for one/both of the phases and they did not answer via pm.
3 teams for phase 1 were completly send via pm.
I had to guess 4 abilities for phase 1 and 14 abilities for phase 2.
Some abilities were corrected and confirmed via pm.
Everything else is in the replays.
Only total count is posted.

Stats Overview Spoilerfree

Phase 1 Phase 2

Pokes; 186 (Word Mega is not written out)

20 Chansey 23 Chansey
19 Giratina 21 Rayquaza
19 Rayquaza 14 Diancle
13 Audino 13 Audino
13 T-tar 13 Giratina
11 Aegislash 12 Aegislash
11 Diancle 9 T-tar
10 Ho-oh 8 Groudon
9 MMY 8 MMY
7 MMX 7 MMX
6 Groudon 5 Gengar
6 Registeel 5 Registeel
5 Gengar 5 Slowbro
5 Yveltal 4 Aero
4 Garchomp 4 Garchomp
3 Aero 4 Ho-oh
2 Arceus 4 Kyogre
2 Dialga 3 Shedinja
2 Metagross 3 Yveltal
2 Slowbro 2 Arceus
1 Aggron 2 Dialga
1 Blissey 2 Gengar-N
1 CharizardY 1 Aggron
1 Gengar-N 1 CharizardY
1 Gyarados 1 Cresselia
1 Heatran 1 Gyarados
1 Kyogre 1 Kyruem-B
1 Kyurem-B 1 Latios
1 Latias 1 Lopunny
1 Lopunny 1 Metagross
1 Mewtwo-N 1 Mewtwo-N
1 Pikachu 1 Pikachu
1 Regigigas 1 Regigigas
1 Shedinja 1 Steelix
1 Steelix 1 Venusaur
1 Venusaur 1 Xernas
1 Xernas 1 Zekrom



Abilities; 186
26 Poison Heal 25 Poison Heal
16 Mold Breaker 17 Mold Breaker
14 Prankster 15 Prankster
13 Fur Coat 14 Fur Coat
12 Aerilite 13 Imposter
12 Imposter 11 Aerilite
12 Protean 11 Pixiate
10 Magic Guard 9 Magic Bounce
10 Pixiate 9 Magic Guard
9 Unaware 9 Unaware
8 Magic Bounce 8 Flash Fire
7 Flash Fire 6 Moody
5 Download 6 Soundproof
5 Soundproof 5 Download
4 Adaptability 4 Adaptability
4 Moody 4 Contrary
3 Contrary 4 Regenerator
3 Gale Wings 3 Gale Wings
3 Regenerator 3 Sturdy
2 Primordial Sea 2 Primordial Sea
1 Dizzle 2 Super Luck
1 Flame Body 1 Dizzle
1 Magnet Pull 1 Illusion
1 Refridgeate 1 Intimidate
1 Scrappy 1 No Guard
1 Simple 1 Refridgeate
1 Solid Rock 1 Scrappy
1 Sturdy 0 Protean

img

Sry but i dont know how seperate the two lists.
I have them listed in teams aswell, but most can be found online.

You can drive your own conclusions out of the data.
If you have any questions pm me.

It was a one time experience for me, as it was alot of free work.
I did this in memory of best times of Balanced Hackmons with Primals.


Special thanks to all who answered my questions regarding their teams,
this includes those who did not get phase 2 requirements;

Quantum Tesseract, dramlamb, dreagon knight, InfernapeTropius11, Kingslayer2779, OM room, Super Blooper,
dragonite drake, AWailOfATai, highlighter, CallMeLefty, TheCommadore, I_Suck_At_Pokermon, motherlove,
HeadsILoseTailsYouWin, MAMP, Lcass4919, TTer, bp scrub, Ransei and E4 Flint.