I just love Magic Guard + Toxib Orb Ho-Oh, but i had one with different moves: Brave Bird/Earthquake or Morning Sun or Recover/Shell Smash or Shift Gear/V-Create.
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Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings Thread
- Thread starter hyperbeem
- Start date
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I noticed Belly Drum + Extremespeed has been nominated, but what about Prankster Belly Drum? I'd like to nominate it for at least B rank as I've swept many teams with the following set:
Premise is quite simple, switch in on a non-threatening pokemon, Belly Drum and fire off high powered EQ's. Ice shard for coverage. The best move to switch in on is actually a Spore as the Lum Berry cures you and allows you to Magic Coat the next one back at them giving you ample set up time.
This set does require good timing however as Imposter/Heart Swap can be a pain.
Golurk @ Lum Berry
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
- Belly Drum
- Nature Power
- Magic Coat
- Ice Shard
I can't really name other pokemon who'd run this successfully as I haven't tried it with anyone else, but I imagine Groudon could easily pull it off also. I just use Golurk for his spin-blocking.
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
- Belly Drum
- Nature Power
- Magic Coat
- Ice Shard
I can't really name other pokemon who'd run this successfully as I haven't tried it with anyone else, but I imagine Groudon could easily pull it off also. I just use Golurk for his spin-blocking.
Premise is quite simple, switch in on a non-threatening pokemon, Belly Drum and fire off high powered EQ's. Ice shard for coverage. The best move to switch in on is actually a Spore as the Lum Berry cures you and allows you to Magic Coat the next one back at them giving you ample set up time.
This set does require good timing however as Imposter/Heart Swap can be a pain.
Contrary Soul Dew Latias is definitely A rank. It is an excellent sweeper that should be used mid-to-end game, but it needs support in the form of Substitute (which I Baton Pass from Prankster Giratina) to stop Imposter.
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Roost
Trait: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Roost
Contrary Lati@s, in my opinion, should never be running more than one of Draco/Psycho/Overheat/Leaf Storm. Usually, Draco Meteor is enough, though Psycho Boost lets you wall Imposter Blissey until it runs out of PP, if that's your plan.
A better set I think is:
(I seem to remember a single v-create boost letting me beat blisseys that copied my +2 SpA Latias, but the calcs don't seem to back that up)
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Weather starters for B-Rank.
Skill Swap and Will-o-wisp provide the best opportunities for getting out of the battle to work again later.
How much of a dead weight your weather starter will otherwise be depends on what filler moves you give it. Support such as Rapid Spin or entry hazards are generally good if you have a defensive mon in the position. (I don't run offensive mons here, usually).
Sand Stream Regirock is a great example on the defensive side.
A better set I think is:
Draco Meteor/Psycho Boost
V-Create/Superpower
Superpower/Substitute
[Any Recovery]
V-Create/Superpower
Superpower/Substitute
[Any Recovery]
(I seem to remember a single v-create boost letting me beat blisseys that copied my +2 SpA Latias, but the calcs don't seem to back that up)
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Weather starters for B-Rank.
Rocky Helmet/Lum Berry
Trait: Drizzle/Drought/Sand stream/Snow Warning
- Skill Swap
- Will-O-Wisp
- filler
- filler
Trait: Drizzle/Drought/Sand stream/Snow Warning
- Skill Swap
- Will-O-Wisp
- filler
- filler
Skill Swap and Will-o-wisp provide the best opportunities for getting out of the battle to work again later.
How much of a dead weight your weather starter will otherwise be depends on what filler moves you give it. Support such as Rapid Spin or entry hazards are generally good if you have a defensive mon in the position. (I don't run offensive mons here, usually).
Sand Stream Regirock is a great example on the defensive side.
This. Skill Swap is a great move, I just about always use it first turn. Great for Magic Bounce leads as it can deflect their moves while allowing you to set up Rocks/Spikes etc. Also I find Regirock to be a great Rapid Spinner, no one expects it.
I've been playing around a bit... Dialga can survive an extremespeed from a boosted gigas/slaking... hm...
Update on my Extreme Drum set:
* added Slack Off as an alternative for the third slot
* added Flame Orb as an item
* added Slack Off as an alternative for the third slot
* added Flame Orb as an item
A modification to Sturdy Shedinja that i'm suprised no one has pointed out yet.
It's viable for A rank, and I've swept so many people that don't have counters to this
This set makes Shedinja an extremely good early game sweeper. Even if the enemy tries to status you first turn, your lum will protect you from it. That will give you the opportunity to use safeguard, protecting you from future status. Now the enemy must switch to a counter, which gives you at least one turn to use shell smash. If the enemy doesn't have anything with mold breaker on it, you can easily sweep the entire enemy team.
This set is also imposter proof because imposter keeps the pokemon's original hp, which renders sturdy pretty much useless. I also put absolute minimum defensive EVs to guarantee an OHKO to any imposter.
You can pretty much put any two physical attacking moves on this, but I chose attack order and shadow claw because they are powerful, have stab, and have high pp.
It's viable for A rank, and I've swept so many people that don't have counters to this
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SDef
- Safeguard
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Claw
- Attack Order
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SDef
- Safeguard
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Claw
- Attack Order
This set makes Shedinja an extremely good early game sweeper. Even if the enemy tries to status you first turn, your lum will protect you from it. That will give you the opportunity to use safeguard, protecting you from future status. Now the enemy must switch to a counter, which gives you at least one turn to use shell smash. If the enemy doesn't have anything with mold breaker on it, you can easily sweep the entire enemy team.
This set is also imposter proof because imposter keeps the pokemon's original hp, which renders sturdy pretty much useless. I also put absolute minimum defensive EVs to guarantee an OHKO to any imposter.
You can pretty much put any two physical attacking moves on this, but I chose attack order and shadow claw because they are powerful, have stab, and have high pp.
@TheImmortal and Krabmeat: A standard Contrary sweeper set will probably go on there, with something like Draco Meteor, V-Create, Substitute, and Aura Sphere / Recover.
@Krabmeat part 2: I'm not sure how weather inducers will work here yet. I'll get back to you on that.
@bobbyfissure: Honestly, not having a Mold Breaker Pokemon with an attacking move is like actually trying to lose to Shedinja. Especially that set, which lacks priority of any kind. In addition, anything faster than Shedinja can just Taunt --> Spore it.
@Krabmeat part 2: I'm not sure how weather inducers will work here yet. I'll get back to you on that.
@bobbyfissure: Honestly, not having a Mold Breaker Pokemon with an attacking move is like actually trying to lose to Shedinja. Especially that set, which lacks priority of any kind. In addition, anything faster than Shedinja can just Taunt --> Spore it.
I don't have a mold breaker ._.
but I never lose to shedinja
BTW:
@Dr. Robotnik
I just remembered why I use illusion. It can't be transformed into.
While I absolutely love Belly Drum sweepers in Balanced Hackmons, I think they're more suited for B-rank than A-rank. While it has the potential of wiping out an entire team, it can easily get stopped by imposter pokes, heart swap and sturdinja. While one can carry substitute, illusion, status moves, etc to counter these specific pokemon, it also creates a problem of 4-moveslot syndrome. Therefore, while being a very (VERY indeed) viable set, it requires some much needed support and therefore, is more likely suited to B-rank.
Also, I would like to nominate Simple Shell Smash Sweepers for C-rank.
Pokemon @ White Herb
Trait: Simple
Nature: Probably timid, since if you want it to be physical you're better off using belly drum + e-speed.
-Shell Smash
-Attacking move
-Attacking move
-Attacking move / Substitute / Gastro Acid / Anything that messes up Sturdinja
Potential Users: Mewtwo, Reshiram, Kyurem-W
Trait: Simple
Nature: Probably timid, since if you want it to be physical you're better off using belly drum + e-speed.
-Shell Smash
-Attacking move
-Attacking move
-Attacking move / Substitute / Gastro Acid / Anything that messes up Sturdinja
Potential Users: Mewtwo, Reshiram, Kyurem-W
I actually had a simple shell smash Gorebyss when I first started playing BH, and man, did it wreck some stuff. Other than the mighty gorebyss, I also tried Mewtwo, Kyurem-W and a lot of other strong behemoths. While this strategy is extremely powerful in theory, it's probably harder to pull off due to the lack of priority and being unable to have illusion or needing to sacrifice a coverage move for substitute to stop imposter blissey from ruining your day. Still, heart swap messes you up.
I picked A rank because it requires some support. B rank is for stuff that's either significantly flawed or you need your team to do a lot of the work for you. Pretty much every problem with BDES can be solved by changing your moveset or ability, which is no problem because it offers a wide array of options, so you can narrow down your problems to maybe one or two things that would require some support.
Shedinja is nothing to worry about if you set up rocks on turn one (which is what I always do. It never fails)
A perfect set would be:
Ability: Illusion
Adamant Nature
-Belly Drum (obviously)
-Extremespeed (main attacking move. This can OHKO prankster groudon after rocks)
-Aqua Jet (to OHKO prankster groudon)
-Crunch (because ice shard isn't strong enough to kill giratina. Slaking/Regigigas is fast enough to outspeed them anyways)
A few things that can stop this (temporarily) are:
-Regirock. Survives with about 50% after aqua jet
-Dialga. Survives with about 25% after extremespeed
-Shuckle. Survives with about 25% after aqua jet
It's pretty powerful. I'd say A-rank
A perfect set would be:
Ability: Illusion
Adamant Nature
-Belly Drum (obviously)
-Extremespeed (main attacking move. This can OHKO prankster groudon after rocks)
-Aqua Jet (to OHKO prankster groudon)
-Crunch (because ice shard isn't strong enough to kill giratina. Slaking/Regigigas is fast enough to outspeed them anyways)
A few things that can stop this (temporarily) are:
-Regirock. Survives with about 50% after aqua jet
-Dialga. Survives with about 25% after extremespeed
-Shuckle. Survives with about 25% after aqua jet
It's pretty powerful. I'd say A-rank
I use it as an early game sweeper. For some reason, no one I battle sets up rocks. And if they do, I spin them away.
... I may have contradicted myself.
SOLUTION: Magic Guard! lolwut
... I may have contradicted myself.
SOLUTION: Magic Guard! lolwut
Yes, Magic Guard would be perfect for Sturdinja. I can see no flaws in this.
See? It works.
Your signature is perfect.
I was thinking we should move some strategies up a tier, because although none are as universally good as imposter, we don't want it being the only thing in S-tier, do we?
No strategies atm are as gamechanging as imposter, so inless theres a significant shift in the metagame i dont foresee anything joining imposter anytime soon. We should probably include a note in the op saying that just because imposter is s tier does not mean it is one of the best strategies in the game, merely that it has had the profoundest impact on the meta.
I really appreciate your enthusiasm and thanks for the signature compliment! I think you missed some sarcasm though... When Shedinja uses Magic Guard it loses Sturdy, the ability that makes it viable in the first place. Magic Guard Shed is OHKOd by nearly every attack in the game.
Why is Extreme Drum in B? B is many noticeable flaws and/or requires a lot of support, the set you decided on covers almost all of its weaknesses and can work mostly independently.
edit: I'd also suggest putting Toxic as an alternative on the fourth slot, to deal with Sturdinja.
edit: I'd also suggest putting Toxic as an alternative on the fourth slot, to deal with Sturdinja.
Extremespeed + Belly Drum is lower than it could be because you cut your health in half just to set up, and even then it's incredibly weak to Imposter or a Prankster Rhydon.
And Slaking is very, very bulky.
Illusion counters Imposter, Aqua Jet OHKOs Prankdon unless it has a +DEF nature.
I nominate Imprison + Transform for B. I'm not entirely sure which it should go in - apart from one other person, I'm the only one I've ever seen use it, but I was able to use it to decent success on the ladder. It has troubles with spore, taunt, and substitute, but if you have a teammate who can break substitutes you should be able to take down at least one pokemon with it.
Set is pretty self-explanatory. Lum Berry is if you put taunt in the third slot; mental herb is if you put spore there. Taunt is suggested (especially if you pick mold breaker for the ability) to keep your opponent from taunting or sporing. The ability is pretty simple as well: Magic Bounce if you worry about sleepers or taunters, mold breaker if you worry about things bouncing back your spider web, and prankster if you're simply concerned with living long enough to transform. Prankster is preferred if you're running taunt or spore, because you can imprison before the opponent to keep them from stopping you.
Imprison stops the opponent from using any moves you have; this won't really be a problem for them except for the third slot. Spider Web and Magma Storm both trap the opponent; Magma Storm is probably the better option unless you're worried about Normalize Gengar. The fourth slot is transform; once you've trapped, imprisoned, and transformed, the opponent will be forced to struggle until only one Pokemon remains (it will probably be theirs). The third slot is mostly useful for keeping your opponent from incapacitating you before you've transformed: substitute, spore, and taunt all stop this set in its tracks, and so they're good options for the slot. You can also taunt or spore something if you expect it's going to substitute, so I usually like to run taunt and mold breaker to stop anything from setting up a sub, even if it has magic bounce.
To use this set to its fullest, you have to get it in on something that can't kill it, but which you can sweep with. If you run Unaware on it, you can consistently use this against Contrarymons, but if you don't trap the opponent before they realize you're unaware, they can switch to something with spore/taunt/substitute and wall you. That said, if your opponent has nothing that you can use to great effect, it isn't dead weight. Unless you get KO'd before transforming (or, somehow, after), you can switch it out and use it again later once you've taken out anything that your opponent will use to counter it now that they know its purpose. You may want to have something with Wish, as it will be spending two or three turns basically soaking up damage and is thus likely to come out of its first kill extremely injured, unless you happen to catch something with a recovery move.
Pokemon @ Lum Berry/Mental Herb
Prankster/Magic Bounce/Mold Breaker/Unaware
Calm Nature
-Imprison
-Magma Storm/Spider Web
-Taunt/Substitute/Spore
-Transform
Users:
Anything with enough bulk to soak up three turns of hits
Prankster/Magic Bounce/Mold Breaker/Unaware
Calm Nature
-Imprison
-Magma Storm/Spider Web
-Taunt/Substitute/Spore
-Transform
Users:
Anything with enough bulk to soak up three turns of hits
Set is pretty self-explanatory. Lum Berry is if you put taunt in the third slot; mental herb is if you put spore there. Taunt is suggested (especially if you pick mold breaker for the ability) to keep your opponent from taunting or sporing. The ability is pretty simple as well: Magic Bounce if you worry about sleepers or taunters, mold breaker if you worry about things bouncing back your spider web, and prankster if you're simply concerned with living long enough to transform. Prankster is preferred if you're running taunt or spore, because you can imprison before the opponent to keep them from stopping you.
Imprison stops the opponent from using any moves you have; this won't really be a problem for them except for the third slot. Spider Web and Magma Storm both trap the opponent; Magma Storm is probably the better option unless you're worried about Normalize Gengar. The fourth slot is transform; once you've trapped, imprisoned, and transformed, the opponent will be forced to struggle until only one Pokemon remains (it will probably be theirs). The third slot is mostly useful for keeping your opponent from incapacitating you before you've transformed: substitute, spore, and taunt all stop this set in its tracks, and so they're good options for the slot. You can also taunt or spore something if you expect it's going to substitute, so I usually like to run taunt and mold breaker to stop anything from setting up a sub, even if it has magic bounce.
To use this set to its fullest, you have to get it in on something that can't kill it, but which you can sweep with. If you run Unaware on it, you can consistently use this against Contrarymons, but if you don't trap the opponent before they realize you're unaware, they can switch to something with spore/taunt/substitute and wall you. That said, if your opponent has nothing that you can use to great effect, it isn't dead weight. Unless you get KO'd before transforming (or, somehow, after), you can switch it out and use it again later once you've taken out anything that your opponent will use to counter it now that they know its purpose. You may want to have something with Wish, as it will be spending two or three turns basically soaking up damage and is thus likely to come out of its first kill extremely injured, unless you happen to catch something with a recovery move.
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