Ladder Balanced Hackmons

Interesting tidbit: Sturdy Shedinja no longer dies from confusion damage.

[21:13:22] Uselesscrab: i have a mechanics question regarding sturdy shedinja + confusion, i'm not sure if the behavior is correct or not
[21:13:47] &Marty: it is now; it wasn't for like three years
[21:13:57] Uselesscrab: oh wow
[21:14:17] Uselesscrab: thanks
[21:14:20] &Marty: np
[21:15:28] &Marty: long story short I saw a Deoxys-Attack OHKO themselves through Focus Sash several weeks ago and thought "that's not right"
[21:16:04] Uselesscrab: ah
[21:16:19] Uselesscrab: yeah this might have some consequences for bh actually, chatter was banned but is no longer quite as broken
 
Most (good) Shedinjas use Lum Berry anyway. So, making them consume their Berry as they Baton Pass away is still good enough.
 
The "Double Slaking combo":

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Crunch
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out/Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Fire

Or use Hustle at all of this two Slaking's, and a another Pokémon in the team have Victory Star.

Is basically the generic strategy of Hustle + Victory star, Hustle-Life Orb-Slaking destroy most of Hackmons in a single attack.
 
The "Double Slaking combo":

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Crunch
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out/Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Fire

Or use Hustle at all of this two Slaking's, and a another Pokémon in the team have Victory Star.

Is basically the generic strategy of Hustle + Victory star, Hustle-Life Orb-Slaking destroy most of Hackmons in a single attack.
1. Balanced Hackmons is a singles metagame, which means you can't boost your allies with Victory Star. And for boosting your own accuracy, No Guard is the better choice (though if you feel it disadvantages you as well, Compoundeyes is also better).

2. Mega Rayquaza gets nearly the same damage with Aerilate Extreme Speed, coupled with an even stronger Boomburst.

3. You could also take advantage of Slaking's bulk to run a Poison Heal set with Facade.
 
The "Double Slaking combo":

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Crunch
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed

Slaking @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle/Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out/Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Fire

Or use Hustle at all of this two Slaking's, and a another Pokémon in the team have Victory Star.

Is basically the generic strategy of Hustle + Victory star, Hustle-Life Orb-Slaking destroy most of Hackmons in a single attack.
I agree with whatever the above post says. Hence, Victory Star is out of the question.

Even if you take Hustle Slaking alone, a lot of things like Priority Burn, Imposter Chansey, Fur Coat Metal Burst mons etc., can put it down before it even gets going. As it is, I think the best role played by Slaking in the current metagame is Illusioning as a Shedinja and surprise-sweeping. Even a PH Variant is superseded by the bulkier Regigigas.
 
A suggest for the combo: Level 1 Pokémon + 0 IVS and EVS in attack + Prankster + Power Split?


Magikarp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 1
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Power Split
- Dark Void
- Endeavor
- Destiny Bond
 
A suggest for the combo: Level 1 Pokémon + 0 IVS and EVS in attack + Prankster + Power Split?


Magikarp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 1
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Power Split
- Dark Void
- Endeavor
- Destiny Bond
Budew or Heatran would be better choices due to a toxic immunity for both, spore/leech seed immunity for budew, and burn immunity for Heatran. And even then it's just a fun gimmick - nothing worthy of being used in a high-level competitive match. Here are some improved sets if you want:

Budew @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 2
EVs: 160 HP
- Spore
- Parting Shot
- Endeavor
- Destiny Bond/Dragon Rage/Toxic/Knock Off/anything really

Heatran @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 2
IVs: 0 HP
- Dark Void
- Parting Shot
- Endeavor
- Destiny Bond/Dragon Rage/Toxic/Knock Off/anything really

Each set uses an EV/IV spead that gives them 15 HP, forgot why it's important but it is, so do it.
 

SwabluIsntAHat

Banned deucer.
Hey guize!

I realized today that someone has been spamming RortikRegisteels on the ladder with Magnet Pull and the moveset Roost/Roost/Toxic/Defog. This absolutely appalling user (what a dick he is) then convinces poor unexpected noobs to send in an Imposter Chansey.

This creates an infinite battle due to the way double moves works. He is a Trickster. And Tricksters are dicks. What a jerk! He also then spams how he is god and the alpha male. We need to stop this!

I say to fix this problem we unban Shadow Tag. That way, Magnet Pull Registeel won't be a viable troll anymore, and the culprit will be unlikely to use it.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Hey guize!

I realized today that someone has been spamming RortikRegisteels on the ladder with Magnet Pull and the moveset Roost/Roost/Toxic/Defog. This absolutely appalling user (what a dick he is) then convinces poor unexpected noobs to send in an Imposter Chansey.

This creates an infinite battle due to the way double moves works. He is a Trickster. And Tricksters are dicks. What a jerk! He also then spams how he is god and the alpha male. We need to stop this!

I say to fix this problem we unban Shadow Tag. That way, Magnet Pull Registeel won't be a viable troll anymore, and the culprit will be unlikely to use it.
seems legit. sturdy shedinja is also very invincible, so we should unban wonderguard because counter OPness with OPness amirite? lmao.
 
Lol no. I can't tell how sarcastic you're being with the suggestion of unbanning shadow tag. A far better solution would be to ban identical moves in different slots + Magnet Pull / Block / Spider Web / Thousand Waves / Mean Look. This gets rid of the problem directly and doesn't infringe on any actually viable strategies.
 

SwabluIsntAHat

Banned deucer.
seems legit. sturdy shedinja is also very invincible, so we should unban wonderguard because counter OPness with OPness amirite? lmao.
You should go outside and yell "OPness" as loud as you can.

Then think about what you just said.

Also, you're definitely right. Unban WG, but only for Shedinja.

Lol no. I can't tell how sarcastic you're being with the suggestion of unbanning shadow tag. A far better solution would be to ban identical moves in different slots + Magnet Pull / Block / Spider Web / Thousand Waves / Mean Look. This gets rid of the problem directly and doesn't infringe on any actually viable strategies.
Uh... banning double moves hurts legit stratz. What about running something like:

Mega Metagross w/ Earthquake/Earthquake/Zen Headbutt/Shell Smash

with

Yveltal w/ Magnet Pull/Stealth Rock/Substitute/Acupressure/Baton Pass

That's a viable strategy that uses double moves and magnet pull!!! Maybe not the best, but it's a valid stratz.

Also I wasnt sarcastic about ST at all!! It's a great ability that would see a lot of useage!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If one of the moves runs out of PP, the identical move will still be clickable but will not work, effectively preventing the user from ever Struggling. Its only serious use is for infinite stall as all Magnet Pull trapping for Imposters can easily be achieved safely without it, whether by putting another non-damaging move in the slot or simply leaving the slot blank. This is one of those things that really should have been quick banned about two-three years ago.
 
Just ban identical moves in the same moveset and be done with it. The only other thing I could even imagine where this is helpful is making you more likely to pick the move with Sleep Talk/Assist (in which case you can just use two similar moves like Roar + Whirlwind or Precipice Blades + Thousand Arrows + Earthquake etc.).
 
Seeing as how infinite stall itself is banned, unbanning huge power banning identical moves on the same mon would make the most sense.
 
Another Imposter-trapping way to stall indefinitely:

Arceus @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
Ability: Poison Heal
-Toxic
-Ingrain
-Aqua Ring
-Spider Web

Bluff a standard attacker to lure in an Imposter for scouting. Use Spider Web if you're not already ingrained on the switch to trap the opponent. Unless Toxic misses every time, you'll end up struggling with more recovery than recoil.

0- Atk Arceus Struggle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 22-26 (4.9 - 5.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

It does require the opponent to hold Leftovers and have a high HP stat, though.
 
Regardless of what we choose to do, I need to come out and say that the fact that endless battles are supposedly banned in Balanced Hackmons but on the simulator, you can still start them anyway is completely ridiculous. We shouldn't have to report a banned strategy every time it is used (imagine what it would be like if every ban was like this!) and often, there aren't even people on who both know or understand our bizarre attitude toward endless battles and can also forcewin a match.

I don't quite understand why verbatim chose this strange solution to the problem of endless battles, but since Zarel now has a vastly improved endless battle clause that won't mess up any supposedly legitimate Leppa Berry strategies, we should actually implement it.
 
Another Imposter-trapping way to stall indefinitely:

Arceus @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
Ability: Poison Heal
-Toxic
-Ingrain
-Aqua Ring
-Spider Web

Bluff a standard attacker to lure in an Imposter for scouting. Use Spider Web if you're not already ingrained on the switch to trap the opponent. Unless Toxic misses every time, you'll end up struggling with more recovery than recoil.

0- Atk Arceus Struggle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 22-26 (4.9 - 5.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

It does require the opponent to hold Leftovers and have a high HP stat, though.
The nature of BH is such that it will be difficult to prevent all endless battles. There are a thousand ways it could happen, even if most are unlikely.

I can't see any reason not to add the Endless Battle Clause into BH. I know it's already technically there, but I meant in terms of actually enforcing it on the simulator. In addition, I agree with the solution AnybodyAgrees has put forth, banning double moves + trapping.

It may be possible to form a legitimate strategy with double moves, since it prevents Struggling, which could be useful on paranoid stall-esque teams. I can see the potential advantage of running two of the same move if you had an extra moveslot and were running some kind of PP stall team.

It's a niche thing, but the nature of BH is such that it's more difficult to prevent endless battles.

Definitely supporting getting rid of endless battles as much as possible. However, I don't support banning double moves unless we absolutely have to, for the reasons above.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top