1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Balls to da wall, its time for some stall

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Mizuhime, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Sadly, the real world isn't the same as a fairy tale.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,244
    overview,
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This is the new look at the stall team, With the addition to latias and gyara, i have an easier time with some of the threats the old version of the team had, Deoxys D gets up rocks, Nattorei gest up spikes, and tentacruel gets up toxic spikes if i get the chance, not to worried if i dont as it can still act as a sponge to fire attacks nattorei doesent wanna deal with, Latias AND gyara can both phaze, witch is a plus and latias and shandera can both clean up after phazing has dented the opponents team a lot





    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/ 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Recover
    - Toxic
    - Taunt

    HAS REPLACED DEOXYS-S AS MY LEAD

    alright , this deoxys has worked alot better on my team thant the other one, Matches up against any lead good , accept metagross as i have no attacks, and toxic doesent hit it, If i do see metagross, i proceed to nattorei and set up spikes toxic to wear down the opponent earley and so on,









    [​IMG]
    Nattorei (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes
    - Toxic
    - Power Whip

    Nattorei is here to set up spikes, pretty obvious right, Power whip for bulky waters, swampert, rotom, Jellecent ( i dont really know the names) gyro ball , becasue its gyro ball and it hurts, toxic to wear down other things...? considering leach seed, but idk opinons are welcome, other than all that , there isent much to say about nattorie, everyoneknows what it does,


    [​IMG]


    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Liquid Ooze
    EVs: 136 HP / 120 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Knock Off
    - Boil Over


    Tentacruels hole purpose is to get up Toxic spikes on something that cant really hurt it, I.e other shandera, heatran ect. Rapid spin to get away hazards my team has to deal with, milotic and dusclops dont like dealing with hazards, Boil over to damage and burn potential threats, 30% chance i know kinda bad, but meh a burn is a burn if it happens it happens.

    IM GOING TO BE TRYING GLISCOR OVER TENTA FOR A BIT TO SEE HOW THAT WORKS


    [​IMG]
    Gyarados (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Roar

    HAS REPLACED MILOTIC AS MY PHASER

    Alright this gyara set seems to be working alot more than my milotic was, With Roar insted of the dragon tail, I can get rid of subs if i see them. A simple set Rest, sleep talk, Waterfall for an attack and roar to say buhbye. I like this set more than my dragon tail milotic, and its harder to kill i find.



    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 sp Def / 252 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Roar
    - Recover
    - Dragon Pulse
    HAS REPLACED EVO STONE DUSCLOPS

    On my Old team i had a BIG weakness to Calm Mind Rankursu (idk if i spelt that right), I bring it out after i see that, start to calm mind up with it, roar at it when it gest to 6 and proced to LOL at my opponent , Mono attacker is kinda walled by steels but its the risk i take, Its also a back up phazer with roar, after a few calm minds becomes a special tank/sweeper/phazer all in one, This pokemon works alot better than the Dusclops did



    [​IMG]

    Shandera (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Flamethrower
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Energy Ball

    shandera the sweeper, now ur like mhmm flash fire, Well if i can bring it on a fire attack , it just makes Shandera that much more dangerous. flamethrower and Shadowball for the stab, Hp ice for those pesky dragons, and energy ball for those annoying water pokemon, shandera can pick off teams 1by 1 in the late game when they are all weakend by the hazards.




    What ive noticed while playing ,

    -Doesent like Electric pokemon, at all really- doesent really mind it now with the addition to latias,

    - Rankursu likes to set up on me -not any more

    - STRUGGLES if hazards arent up - still has troubles but not as much

    now i would like some suggestions on what to do to make this team even better, Any thing would be nice and i will try it, Thank you in advance


    ALSO A BIG THANK YOU TO LK FOR THE GREAT SUGGESTIONS AS THESE HAVE SEEMED TO WORK WELL
  2. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Hi

    Deoxys isn't a FURSHUR SR. MH Taunter's prevent it so yeah. I reckon Hippowdon would do better on this team, seeing as how stall teams seek as much residual damage as possible.

    Nattorei wants Leech Seed over Toxic. Toxic Spikes up means that the only thing that is going to get it that usually doesnt are flying pokemon, which shouldn't be much of a problem. If they really are a problem you can run Scarf on Shandera and give it HP Electric/Ice. Leech Seed adds even more residual damage. Also try a Skarmory in this place seeing as how it can set up spikes more easily and has a reliable form of recovery.

    Tentacruel is fine.

    Milotic wants max SpD investment. With Marvel Scale acitvated his defenses are already boosted 50%. Also Milotics weaknesses are almost always specially oreintated e.g. Thunderbolt, Giga Drain. Other then that nothing much to say, I know how well Milotic works.

    TBH I don't like Dusclops so I would say get rid of him or Shandera, seeing as they offer the same things. Dusclops never sat right with me and I just don't like it. Try a Desukan or something.

    Shandera is wants Overheat > Flamethrower. So much more power is evident.

    Rankurusu should be handled by Shandy but if it isn't then try SD Scizor or something.

    GL
  3. Bogmire

    Bogmire

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    I haven't got that much into the 5th gen scene yet, however I can tell you that Dusclops for sure NEEDS max hp. there is no excuse to not have max hp (it only has base 40, it needs as much as it can possibly get even with those high defenses), as it will allow it to take hits better on both sides.
  4. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    actually I believe when it comes to Evo Stone Pokemon that max Def + max SpD work 10x better.
  5. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,185
    Actually, with the Evolution Stone, Dusclops should be running 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Sp. Def for greater bulk, especially if he's running Pain Split.
    EDIT: Okay, I was ninja'd.
    Now, the first thing I notice is that you have absolutely no way of getting past Heal Bell Blissey once Deoxys-S is down, which will happen quite often considering it's a suicide lead.
    Of course, you have Toxic and Toxic Spikes, but Heal Bell will negate that, and Blissey literally walls everything except Deoxys. Therefore, Leech Seed would be useful on Nattorei over Toxic because you can regain massive HP from Blissey.
    @ your electric-type weakness:
    You really have two choices, either replace Milotic or replace Tentacruel, and you need Tspikes and a phazer. However, having two waters with similar typings (and for that matter, two ghosts) can be problematic.
    If you were to replace Milotic, you can run a Rest / Sleep Talk / Dragon Tail / Swords Dance (or Roar) Garchomp for much faster phazing and more damage.
    I don't really know what you can replace Tenta with. :/
    I'll edit back in later.

    EDIT: Okay, I see a major Excadrill weakness, as it can set up on Dusclops (ironically, a spin blocker) and then proceed to OHKO everything on your team.
    I suggest a Gliscor over either Tentacruel or Milotic. This will patch up your electric-weakness and give you a counter to Excadrill.
    Another option is to run Vaporeon over Milotic; Vaporeon can help heal your pokemon with Wish and cure them of status with Heal Bell while still being able to phaze with Roar if need be.

    Shandera seems a little bit out of place actually considering this is a stall team. It's SR weakness isn't doing much. What may be a cool thing to use is a CM/Roar Latias, i. e.
    Timid Latias @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Calm Mind
    Roar
    Dragon Pulse
    Surf/HP Fire (for nattorei)
    This Latias can turn your Ranculus weakness into a setup opportunity. Switch this into a Calm Minding Rankurusu and set up along with it until the turn it reaches +6. On that turn, Roar, and watch your opponent despair as you proceed to sweep with +5 in SpA and SpD. This takes care of Rankurusu handily and gives you a way to damage Steels that would otherwise be extremely hard to kill thanks to their Toxic immunity. It's also an excellent bulky attacker for your team. A nice bonus is it also gives you another Electric-type resistance.

    Hope this helps.
  6. Eos

    Eos some people just want to see the world burn
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    743
    First of all, that sprite isn't Deoxys-S. That is the normal form of Deoxys lol.
    Deoxys really shouldn't have a +sp. Att nature and a -sp. def nature. The point of deoxys is to be bulky, not to put a dent in the opponents team :p. Otherwise, good set.
    Nattorei's set is good, except i'd put leech seed over toxic, but that is opinionated really. Also, you should run a +sp. Def nature and a -spe nature (sassy). It helps it wall much better. Also, run max hp instead of physical def. 4 def.
    Tentacruel is good. You may want to think about changing knock off to ice beam. At least, test it.
    Milotic looks nice, and since it is your MVP, i'd suggest you make it as good at possible. To do that, i'd run a relaxed nature. With that, it improves the power of boil over/scald.
    Dusclops looks great. No change in that. But, since you already have a ghost to prevent the (hardly active) nerfed BOOM attack, I'd suggest using a max defense bulky porygon2 with ice beam, thunderbolt, recover, and toxic.
    Shandera should be running fire blast because of Timid nature. otherwise, it doesn't OHKO some very important pokes.

    GL with the changes, should be a good team once these are figured out!
  7. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Messages:
    6,190
    Posting here due to a misinformation.

    Dusclops should always be using Max HP. Evo stone or not, the amount of bulk by maxing HP is far superior than not.

    Here's a boring example
    Dusclops 1: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef, Bold
    Dusclops 2: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SDef Bold (i'm sure you can find a better EV spread than this)

    Dusclops 1: 222/591/538
    Dusclops 2: 284/544/489

    Dusclops 2 has 17.75% more physical bulk and 16.27% more special bulk. Both numbers are far greater than adding further boosted natures on Dusclops 1 on two stats.

    Need another example?
    Adamant 4 Atk TTar Crunch (standard spdef tar) vs 222/591 Dusclops: 44%-52%
    Adamant 4 Atk TTar Crunch (standard spdef tar) vs 284/544 Dusclops: 38%-45%
    358 SAtk LO Latios Draco Meteor vs 222/538: 59.5%-70%
    358 SAtk LO Latios Draco Meteor vs 284/489: 50.7%-60%

    ALWAYS USE MAX HP (on Dusclops)!


    The bulk boost is more important than pain split recovery.
  8. afterburn

    afterburn Villain of some untold story
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Threats
    1. Lack of resistance to Ground- type moves
    2. Swords Dance Excadrill
    3. Swords Dance Terrakion
    4. Swords Dance Blaziken
    5. Bulk Up Scrafty / Conkeldurr
    6. Calm Mind Reuniclus

    Hey skippy11, this looks like good stall team, but it does suffer from a number of problems. Sand sweepers in general will be a pain to deal with, especially considering the fact that most of them carry Earthquake, and Ground- type attacks are unresisted by this team. You have SD / RP Landorus covered, but Excadrill and Terrakion will have some fun with this team when backed up by Sandstorm. Excadrill can use Dusclops to get in a Swords Dance as well as Chandelure's Choice- locked Shadow Ball. From there it can destroy your entire team with boosted Earthquake alone. Terrakion only gets a set-up opportunity on Chandelure, since Sandstorm boosts its Special Defense, it can set-up on anything Chandelure throws at it, and proceed to destroy the team with +2 Close Combat / Stone Edge. Chandelure as your revenge killer will only manage 38.4% with Super Effective Energy Ball at max under Sandstorm. Although more uncommon than the other two, Swords Dance Blaziken can set-up on Shandera locked into Shadow Ball or force out Nattorei to set up. From here it will outspeed everything on the team after a Speed Boost and proceed to OHKO everything with +2 Hi Jump Kick / Flare Blitz / Stone Edge. Bulk Up Scrafty and Conkeldurr can set-up on Dusclops with ease, the former using Rest to get rid off poison status, while the latter benefiting from it via Guts. After a Bulk Up or two (which isn't hard to get), both Fighting- types will proceed to 2HKO everything with STAB Drain Punch, Payback (in Scarfty's case), and Drain Punch, Payback / Stone Edge, Mach Punch in Conkeldurr's case. Finally, Reuniclus can set-up on pretty much any Pokemon except for Milotic and Shandera locked into Shadow Ball. It will be a tough challenge to wear it down since it doesn't take any damage from residual damage and will leave a dent in your team with boosted Psychic / Psycho Shock and Focus Blast.


    Solutions:

    • Solution A: Rest-Talk Gyarados over Milotic
    Milotic has its uses, but I think you'll do better with Gyarados, whose greater Physical bulk and Intimidate, is a great asset to your team in taking on Swords Excadrill, Swords Dance Blaziken, as well as, Bulk Up Scarfty and Bulk Up Conkeldurr. You also gain a valuable Ground- type resist, so things like CB Garchomp and CB Terrakion can't spam Earthquake. Gyarados can still perform the same duties as Milotic, one of them being pHazing via Dragon Tail and racking up residual damage. Replacing Milotic with Gyarados doesn't make you lose anything really, but it allows you to gain a durable tank to many of the dominant Physical threats that roam in the metagame. As for the pHazing part, Gyarados has both Roar and Dragon Tail. What Roar has over Dragon Tail is the reliable accuracy as well as being able to pHaze out Substitute users. Dragon Tail on the other hand does damage to the opposing Pokemon, while causing it to switch. It is also not shut down by Taunt. However, it has less than stellar accuracy and cannot pHaze out Substitute users, so its personal preference here.
    • Solution B: Calm Mind Latias over Dusclops
    Chandelure seems like it's a very important revenge killer for your team (for NP Thunderus especially), and replacing it will leave you walled by Steel- types, especially Skarmory, so I think Dusclops is the one who should be replaced. Dusclops has great overall bulk, but I think it also serves as set-up fodder to a bunch of threats, who don't care too much about Seismic Toss, or those who don't take anything from Toxic. Calm Mind Latias on the other hand brings a number of valuable resistances to the table such as resistance to the abundant Psychic- and Fighting- type attacks being thrown around in the metagame, in addition to Fire-, Water-, Electric-, Ground-, the list goes on. It also has a more reliable way to restore back its health in Recover. It's also a great check to Calm Mind Reuniclus and Swords Dance Terrakion (something Gyarados can't handle after a Swords Dance). Calm Mind Reuniclus fails to inflict enough damage with Psychic and Focus Blast, since Latias resists these two moves. Latias on the other hand can use this as an opportunity to set-up multiple Calm Minds, and either Roar Reuniclus away. Even if you undergo the option of Roar, Reuniclus won't be able to stop the combination of Calm Mind + Dragon Pulse + Recover. Latias can also function as an additional pHazer, being able to tank Special hits after Calm Mind (from Reuniclus, Heatran, Mixed Blaziken), while at the same time functioning as a win condition late game by sweeping teams after a few Calm Mind boosts once hazards have done their job.

    Optional Changes:

    This isn't really a suggestion, more of an opinion. I don't think Deoxys-S fits in with this kind of team, since it's usually used for Spike stacking offensive teams. A better battle starter would be something with good bulk and the ability to lay Stealth Rock in any stage of the match, such as Hippowdon or Tyranitar. Right now Deoxys-S is only being used for Stealth Rock, and then dying, which might be disadvantageous for this team, putting you 6-5 from the get go, there are better alternatives to setting up Stealth Rock on Stall teams. Offensive teams are ok with that since Stealth Rock is such a necessity for them, so it's logical for them to use suicide "leads". However on Stall teams every member should work as a way to wear out the foe using good bulk, and abusing entry hazards to cause constant switches, and this is something Deoxys-S fails to do. It's almost like leading with Focus Sash Aerodactyl on a heavy stall team in Gen 4. Anyway, if you still choose to go this way, then you might want to try 252 HP with Magic Coat over Ice Beam, so Mischievous Heart Taunt users don't shut you down. Also go with a Jolly Nature and Leftovers over Focus Sash.

    Movesets:

    Rest-Talk Gyarados (open)
    [​IMG]
    Gyarados (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Roar / Dragon Tail
    ---


    Calm Mind Latias (open)
    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psycho Shock / Psychic
    - Recover
    - Dragon Pulse
    ---


    So to summarize:
    • Rest-Talk Gyarados > Milotic
    • Calm Mind Latias > Dusclops
    • (Optional) Alternative Stealth Rock user (Tyranitar / Hippowdon, etc.)

    GL
  9. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,239
    Yeah, Deoxys-S doesnt really fit into this team.
    The easiest replacement is Deoxys-D:

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-D @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/ 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Recover
    - Toxic
    - Taunt / Ice Beam / Focus Blast
  10. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Sadly, the real world isn't the same as a fairy tale.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,244

    thhank you , i will be trying all of these changes and i will let u know how they went
  11. afterburn

    afterburn Villain of some untold story
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Also, you definitely need Psycho Shock on Latias to take on Swords Dance Terrakion in the Sandstorm, since Dragon Pulse fails to do enough damage in Sandstorm conditions (SD Terrakion usually is in Sandstorm teams). However, with Psycho Shock, you can revenge it after Defense drops. I'd say swap it for Roar. Also, play cautiously with Scarf Shandera, as this is your only way to revenge SD Landorus and NP Thunderus.
  12. V0x

    V0x o:
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,902
    If you use gyro ball on Nattorei -spe nature and 0 IVs actually makes a difference in damage in my experience. I've taken down Chomp and the Latii when I wouldn't have with standard speed. Also, there wouldn't be anything to lose because what would Nattorei be outrunning?
  13. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Sadly, the real world isn't the same as a fairy tale.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,244

    alright thank you
  14. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,071
    Hey I got your VM.
    If I'm completely honest, I don't have much experience witn stall teams, so I don't know how effective this rate can be, but I'll try my best.

    First of all, I noticed that you might really benefit from an electric immunity. Since DeoxysD is only setting up SR, I think you could benefit from using Hippowdon in it's place. Stall teams thrive on residual damage, and SS can really help you out. Instant recovery and being a good check to the previously mentioned threats (Excadrill/Terrakion, etc). Hippowdon alxo gives you another excellent pHazer, letting you free up a moveslot on Latias, for mabye Psycho Shock (to win CM wars), Surf (for coverage) or Refresh (for extreme survivability)

    I also don't really see much use for Toxic on Ferrothorn. Leech Seed gives you switches, which is what all stall teams want, and it also gives him some more recovery

    I've never used Chandelure (FF versions) so I can't say how effective they are. I'd give it Fire Blast though, since ghostie needs all the powee it can ger. It somehow doesn't seem to fit into the stallish nature of the team, but I can see that it helps against Lucario, and it DOES effectively block rapid spin. I was going to say watch out for SR, but you have a spinner anyway...
    Doesn't matter, if it works for you, great. If you ever have trouble with other stall teams though, subsplit gengar could work, although unfortunately he's slower than starmie

    Nice team, and good luck with it =D
  15. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Sadly, the real world isn't the same as a fairy tale.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,244
    thank you cherub, ive come up with some conclusions on my own, one being putting spikes on dexoys insted of rocks, Taking out Ferrothorn, in place for gliscor, giving rocks to gliscor, so i would still get the rocks and spikes, Tentacruel could be replaced for a sleeptalk pert , as another phazer, freeing up another moveslot on latias like you all said to win the calm mind wars,


    with these changed it would give me my immunity to he hated electric attack on my team, with swampert and gliscor, grass restiance for swampert with gyaradoes. Spikes would aslo be easier to get up with dexoys , with Ferrothorn i always have to worry about the suprise hp fire ,


    IDK this is what i have come up with in the past day, any opinions would be nice
  16. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Sadly, the real world isn't the same as a fairy tale.
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,244

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)