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Banning sandstorm teams?

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Hendog, Jun 18, 2013.

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  1. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Banning sandstorm teams? Why?

    Let's be honest, when we all first entered the little cup meta-game, we all went in wanting to use sets such as dragon dance Charmander to funk around on our teams.
    [​IMG]
    (Isn't it adorable?)

    You know, having a vast amount of cute pokés to play with.

    But in my personal opinion sandstorm teams prevent that element of ambiguous innocence and freedom over set choice.

    Really, all sandstorm teams are, is the result of a metagame that is overlooked and ignored. If this kind of unbalance was abused in OU, it would be stopped so damn fast.

    I mean let's face it, not much can stop Drilbur.

    [​IMG]

    For example: Bronzor, seemingly every-bodies favorite justification for sandstorm teams being legal. But does Bronzor really wall Drilbur?
    [​IMG]

    The generic scenario for Drilbur vs Bronzor would be Drilbur switching in often against a pokémon that doesn't stand a chance (i.e Scraggy), giving Drilbur the opportunity to swords dance freely.

    In this scenario, Drilbur has a 98.78% chance to 3HKO Bronzor. (at full hp; guaranteed after stealth rocks.)

    But the worst thing that Bronzor (generically) can actually do to Drilbur is go for the 0.02% chance of 3HKOing, of which will not happen because Drilbur will hit first on the third turn, only allowing Bronzor to get 2 hits in. Besides that Bronzor can merely toxic Drilbur.

    But there is one counter to Drilbur I will openly accept;
    Snover
    [​IMG]

    Snover cripples Drilbur and (the rest of sandstorm abusers) by replacing sandstorm with hail and further more OHKOs any (regardless of special defense invest) Drilbur with Blizzard. ​


    But when you only really need to counter one Pokémon, stopping snover isn't a tough job.
    -Snover is often incredibly frail and requires a choice scarf to actually have some use (sub seed is nonsense in my opinion).
    -It's ice typing means that it is worn down quickly by stealth rocks (whilst sandstorm team ground types take absolute pittance)
    -Pokémon resisting it's stab moves are plentiful and are clear counters that can easily wear down or kill Snover. For example Pawniard takes next to nothing from stealth rocks or Snover's blizzard and can pursuit upon Snover switching out, combined with the stealth rock damage, Snover wouldn't be able to play a huge part in the game after an encounter such as this.

    I've played little cup a long time now and the sheer designation that some sandstorm team users have been able to afford to use to stop Snover has been remarkable. I have had Snover OHKO'd numerously by a hidden power fire from Lilleep (which can survive a Blizzard from Snover, although Snover is meant to be a counter for Lilleep.)

    Even that goofy hippo, Hippopotas has OHKO'd by hitting it with a HP fire on a switch in.

    Besides, should every single team be forced to use Snover or sand?

    So really, what I think is best for the entire LC metagame and it's players is resorting one of two solutions;
    1) Ban sandstorm teams.
    2) Create tiers within little cup.

    I am completely aware that these solutions are very unlikely to be implicated, but I felt the need to rant.

    Bye. Thanks for reading my thoughts and stuff and please let me know if I'm wrong.
    (I may edit this further if I think of more interesting stuff or whatever)
  2. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Hey there Hendog,

    You do have a really good point. However, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. There are far more counters to Sand than the common Snover and Bronzor. Snover is the most solid choice, and the most offensive choice as well, but there are plenty of other solid counters to Drilbur that make it not only not threatening but also not as threatening as some other big threats of the metagame that aren't even being brought up in this thread. Drilbur may have once been broken, but this broken-ness has caused a lot of its counters and checks to rise in usage, counteracting its sweeping capabilities and making it not-broken.

    I think the problem here is that most people don't really how many counters there are to Sand. Other physical bulky Pokemon or Pokemon with useful resistances can easily wall Drilbur, and Sand teams, to no end. My favorite example of this would be Shroomish- Shroomish is an extremely solid answer to Sand teams, as it completely and utterly walls Hippo, Lileep, and Drilbur, the three Pokemon found on 99% of Sand teams. Shroomish easily shrugs off an EQ and even an LO X-Scissor and then OHKO's with Giga Drain, healing pretty much all damage back. Drilburs that lack X-Scissor are completely walled by Shroomish, and using X-Scissor forces Drilbur to lose out other coverage. Foongus can do this as well, but not as solidly, as it doesn't resist EQ- still, it has Regenerator, which lets it easy pivot out and gain health back. All Grass-types can pretty much stop a Drilbur sweep whether it has X-Scissor or not, because of their bulk and access to support moves that can easily stop Drilbur. And that's only one part of the counters-to-Drilbur list. There are many others, such as Water-types, who can sponge an attack and OHKO, priority users such as Mienfoo or Murkrow who can easily wear down LO and even Eviolite Drilbur, and bulky physical Pokemon in general such as Porygon. There are many counters to Drilbur- and you can fit any one of them onto your team with little effort. Drilbur is having no negative effect on the meta, in my opinion.

    Remember, the meta can and will definitely attempt to fix itself and restabalize after every suspect we do. If you'll notice, the usage of Drilbur and Sand in general has fallen quite a bit from April -> May. Hippo fell by 1.1%, Drilbur fell by 2.0%, and Snover rose by 2.27%. Porygon, another commonly used Drilbur check, rose by a whopping 3.22%, and other Sand checks, such as Tirtouga, who rose by 0.92%, are also on the rise. This shows that the once monstrous threat, Drilbur, is falling because it is so good and people are required to run hard counters to it such as Snover. Drilbur forces people to counter it, which may not seem like a good thing, but it actually is because the rise of these counters will eventually stop Drilbur's "reign of terror" and the metagame will once again be stable. And this process is already taking place.

    There is 0 need to ban Drilbur because the meta is already handling it for us, and it isn't even broken in the first place.
  3. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Oh hey Electrolyte. I agree that a lot of bulky physical walls can stop Drilbur to some extent. However that is why Bronzor was just an example as such.

    Besides the fact that a lot of these "counters" are sacrificed to actually take down Drilbur. But the real problem is how easily these counters are stopped. You mentioned Tirtouga right? A vast majority of sand teams contain a Lilleep that makes Tirtouga look pathetic. You can check as many statistics as you would like, Meinfoo has and will always be used that counters Porygon nicely. Among this Porygon is walled similarly to Snover. Steel types such as Pawniard, cannot be toxic-ed, resists both ice beam and tri-attack and can hit super effectively with Brick break or even use Porygon to set up on.

    My main issue with sandstorm teams is more the level of actual preparation that is required to prevent being stomped by them.

    The enjoyment of little cup for me (likely for many others too) is the diversity of the pokémon within it. I feel that sandstorm teams generally limit this by a serious amount and regardless of the figures, there has always been a huge imbalance and I've been playing for roughly a year.
    I agree Drilbur should not be banned, I use it myself (in a spinner/defensive manner.) I am just saying that sandstorm teams as a whole take away the diverse nature of the meta-game and ultimately provide an unfair advantage.
    After all, what really makes something unbalanced? Something that can be stopped with effort or something that is unfair (relatively, in this case to the rest of the metagame).
    Thanks.
  4. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Bulky Porygon is not a Drilbur check, it flat out loses to Swords Dance Drilbur, even if it carries Ice Beam, and is 2HKO'd by Life Orb Drilbur.

    Tirt can only Aqua Jet Drilbur, which I'm sure doesn't OHKO eviolite ones. Also, keep in mind that Hippo is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters in LC, and Staryu is beaten by Lileep which makes it difficult to spin it away. without Sturdy, it can't even switch in.

    Scarf Porygon is also not a good check to Sand. Lileep actually walls Scarf Porygon in Sandstorm, and Scarf Porygon is forced to use Ice Beam which can mean easy set up by something like Pawniard or free momentum for a Magnemite.

    Grass types aren't always good checks, since Foongus and Shroomish both lose to boosted attacks (Earthquake and X-Scissor). Earthquake / X-Scissor / Shadow Claw is becoming more popular on Drilburs, so if you have a flying type (ex. Archen, Murkrow) it can check it.

    The best check is Riolu with Magnet Rise in my opinion, it works regardless of what Drilbur carries and is very unexpected. Plus Riolu has utility outside of checking sand.
  5. Hendog

    Hendog

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    I was thinking about that actually, I agree. Not much can stop swords dance Drilbur.

    But I would like to point out that Riolu is 2HKO'd by Drilbur after a swords dance with Shadow Claw.

    Besides, if it takes magnet rise Riolu to actually stop Drilbur, then surely the pure designation and cost to teams to actually stop Drilbur is too high than can be deemed balanced!
  6. Shouting

    Shouting

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    The only way Drilbur will beat Riolu if it predicts a magnet rise after it swords dance and hits you with Shadow Claw, but in all honestly the chances of that happening are incredibly low because it's not seen very much. It will probably only happen if you reveal it earlier in the match, and even then you can just drain punch or use copycat. ( and if it carries Rock Slide and X-Scissor Drilbur will always lose)

    Also, Magnet Rise isn't such a big deal on Riolu, as it really only needs Copycat and Drain Punch, the rest are luxuries. Crunch might be a bigger deal, but Roar and protect really aren't necessary and usually filler anyway.

    The best way to stop Drilbur with Swords Dance is to actually not let it get a boost. So for example if staryu just kills Hippo and Drilbur comes out, it's really best to stay in and take a risk with Hydro Pump/Surf. Since Swords Dance Drilbur is pretty weak with no set up, it's easier to work around.
  7. Hendog

    Hendog

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    I haven't tried this out practically, but doing damage calcs; Drilbur after a swords dance 2HKOs Riolu with Shadow claw. But Riolu only has a 61.55% chance to 3HKO Drilbur (eviolite+bulky). So lets say Drilbur misses an EQ on Riolu due to magnet rise. From that point although Riolu will get 2 hits off due to copycat; Drilbur will still win.

    The problem is, it's incredibly easy for Drilbur to get off a swords dance because it's such a big threat and can scare out most pokés. I see your point but that's pretty big risk, on top of the fact that a lot of sandstorm teams come with Lilleep or Ferroseed so it wouldn't be wise to switch in Drilbur when both Pokémon are perfect switch ins to Staryu.

    Besides, Sandshrew has been ignored a lot in this discussion actually. Sandshrew is pretty much an alternative (weaker, but bulkier) Drilbur of which gives them a second opportunity should Drilbur get KO'd.
  8. Shouting

    Shouting

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    You're forgetting Drain Punch recovery, factor that in and Riolu will always come out on top with health to spare, I use it along with a grass type and I never am swept by Drilbur or Sandshrew in sand.

    Sandshrew is much easier to deal with, it may be bulkier but scafers such as Gastly outspeed it and it is weaker so Grass types can check it easier.

    I used Staryu for an example because like you said, lileep walls it so it's not that useful against Sand so you can risk staying in because staryu isn't contributing much. As long as you don't switch and hit it decently hard, it's much easier to take out with a wall or with priority.
  9. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    refutes to previous posts (open)

    The point is, there are still many things that can check Drilbur. Tirtouga is a very solid check; even with SR unboosted EQ is not going to OHKO Evio Solid Rock Tirt, and Tirt is easily doing 60-80% with Aqua Jet to Evio (LO Drilbur can be OHKOd after SR.) Like, on paper, Drilbur seems like a very frightening sweeper, but it really isn't. You're banking your arguments on the fact that Drilbur can get to +2 -which is a common but improper mistake to make when you're considering the viability of Pokemon. Most of the time, Drilbur simply can't get to the +2 that it needs to beat a few number of its counters- after all, most STAB moves can easily cleave off 50% of higher from even Eviolite Drilbur and then all it takes is priority to finish it off. Setting up with Drilbur is not easy, sweeping with Drilbur is not easy, and winning teams with Sand when there are so many Sand counters running around is also not easy. Sand really isn't broken at all.

    And honestly, the prevalence of Snover has made Drilbur and Sand really not as great as it used to. Yes, you brought up some useful Snover counters- Stealth Rock, Steel-types- but if you're going to consider the three slots for anti-snover movements for your Standard Sand team, you should also consider the five slots for anti-anti-Snover movements in the common team with Hail. The point here is- ONE Pokemon, Snover, can alone handle THREE Pokemon that are pretty much always found on Sand teams. Sure, Stealth Rock hurts Snover- but so what? Just carry a spinner, or a Natu, of which can easily prevent Stealth Rock for the portion of the game that Snover needs to be used for. You say that Pokemon resisting its STAB moves are common- but that's pretty much false. Steel-types, which carry 0 offensive momentum (other than Pawniard who is smashed by Fighting-types) and Fire-types, which can be hit hard by HP Rock, are not very solid answers to Snover, especially when Hail teams often carry 1-2 Snover counter counters. Now take into consideration the rest of the list of Drilbur checks and counters.


    Another thing that I'd like to bring up- which doesn't only count for this "suspect", but also for many other potential ones- is that a big, big factor that's contributing to the stability of LC is the massive amount of priority. Things like Fake Out Mienfoo, Mach Punch Timburr, Sucker Punch Krow, Ice Shard Snover, Aqua Jet Tirtouga, Fake Out / Vacuum Wave Croagunk, Ice Shard Shellder--the prevalence of priority in LC, as well as the fact that most intimidating sweepers are weak to those priority moves, makes it quite tough for anything to become broken, really. For Drilbur, as an example. Here is a list of damage rolls from common priority moves to Drilbur.

    (Life Orb)
    240 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Drilbur: 19-23 (86.36 - 104.54%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    212+ Atk Splash Plate Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Drilbur: 18-24 (81.81 - 109.09%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    104 Atk Snover Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Drilbur: 14-18 (63.63 - 81.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    196 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Drilbur: 7-9 (31.81 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Those are a few of the more common priority moves that are used to combat Drilbur. All it really takes is STAB move + Priority finisher to take down Drilbur, no matter how many boosts it has. To beat it, all you really have to do is hit it with an attack as it sets up, sack that pokemon or hit it again, and then finish it with priority. Drilbur is honestly not that hard to counter, even if you don't have Snover or any other defensive checks to it.

    Yes, Drilbur is good. Yes, it can be a frightening sweeper. But NO, it does not make Sand broken, because Drilbur itself isn't broken.

    If you really want to convince me or any other people that are still doubtful about this, I suggest you provide us with some logs or replays showing Drilbur's effectiveness against viable teams and players. I can't even remember the last time Drilbur or sand gave me any problems whatsoever, and I'm not set to agree with this until I see it with my own eyes.
  10. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Firstly, I'd like to apologise for accusing you of miscalculating the damage calcs. That was my error, I didn't notice the indication that Drilbur was life orbed.

    Okay, I have a little time now.
    -I think it's slightly insane to say that Meinfoo's fake out balances sand and Drilbur because faking out will likely cost you a chunk of damage or even a pokémon on the subsequent turn
    -Croagunk is definitely, definitely not an adequate step to stopping Sand rush Drilbur, besides the fact that it's rather impractical to run double priority Croagunk, it will be OHKO'd after the vacuum wave, of which is a sacrifice of a whole Pokémon just to get damage on Drilbur. Which if you ask me, going to such measures only further proves the imbalance of sand.
    -In fact most of the pokémon you have suggested will not take a hit (after stealth rocks, particularly in Tirtouga's case due to sturdy loss) from Drilbur the subsequent turn.
    -I've already covered Snover, beyond this not running scarf is impractical or locking into ice shard is practically suicide.
    -As I have previously mentioned LO Drilbur seems rare. The solutions are way too idealistic.


    Sure, Drilbur is unlikely to be taking plentiful stab moves without being in priority range. But you are yet to point out pokémon that aren't easily checked by common sand team pokés that can freely dish out a stab move to Drilbur without significant sacrifice. Among the fact that Drilbur is unlikely to have to stay in to take the stab move that is dangerous or a priority move that will KO it and are easily switched into allowing Drilbur to continue to be a threat later.

    Another thing I'd like to point out is that the situations of which you have pointed to are out of context. Life orb Drilbur, does not function in the same way eviolite Drilbur does. Besides the fact none of the Pokémon you have suggested actually have a safe switch in to Life Orb Drilbur (maybe Murk on the suspect of an EQ), you have failed to recognise that you cannot actually see whether Drilbur is LO or Evio until it actually attacks. Of which none of the suggested Pokémon will happily take a life orb attack from Drilbur. Furthermore the actual sets you have suggested are impractical. There is a massive over emphasis on attack invest, which again is impractical.

    I may attempt to provide evidence of sand teams being imbalanced in action but this is still discriminative and rather subjective. But I will consider doing so.
  11. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Oh yes of course, I forgot sorry. I agree actually but I'd find it largely impractical using Magnet rise Riolu however.

    Yes I understand what you're saying but a lot of the time what Drilbur switches into it can take a hit from anyway.
  12. ZoroarkForever

    ZoroarkForever

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    Just so you know, Electrolyte was saying that Drilbur was holding LO, not Krow.

    Oh, and sand isn't broken. Yes, sand is a solid strategy, but it is nowhere close to being broken. As a avid LC player, I can honestly say Sand teams give me very little problems and every competent player and teambuilder should be able to make a team that is prepared for sand.
  13. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Oh well I must have misunderstood. But the fact of the matter is, life orb Drilbur is very uncommon in my experience.
    Besides I'd consider the damage calcs given to be manipulative and too idealistic situations. In reality they can very rarely be applied in my opinion.

    I am not a bad player if that's what you're implying, I have reached top places on the ladder with the highest provisional. I agree, sand can be prepared for, but that doesn't make it balanced. The designation required to create a team ready for sand is high and causes a lot of restriction, of which essentially makes the meta game less fun. Besides this, sand teams can easily counter attempts to stop them e.g running a steel types to wall or counter Grass or Ice types. But the preparation to counter sand teams is far greater than this.

    Many sand teams are pathetically built. A lot of the time you may see a team with nothing but rock/ground type pokés. Just because some of the worse players also use sand it doesn't mean they are so easily dealt with as a whole.
  14. cxinlee

    cxinlee

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    Well I'm assuming that the sand team is properly built, which means having something like pursuit Houndour or Wynaut to take care of Snover. IMO sand isn't really broken, but it is still a powerful force.
    Slowpoke can scald sandshrew and drilbur, set up trick room, or toxic lileep on the switch, crippling it.

    This post is incomplete and I'll try to clean up the post if I have the time.
  15. Hendog

    Hendog

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    What team are you talking about, sorry?

    Okay that's a fair opinion. I can understand where you're coming from but I think a lot of people tend to have this mentality that "if it can be beaten, it's fair". Which isn't necessarily the case. For example Syther has been forced out of LC, although it has a giant weakness to stealth rocks and Dwebble can take a hit because of sturdy and OHKO with rock blast. But that doesn't make Syther balanced, right?

    I'd also like to point out that after stealth rocks, Slowpoke isn't a brilliant switch in. If Slowpoke switches in it will lose around 18% of health due to stealth rocks and weather if I am not mistaken. (physically defensive slowpoke that is) Of which leaves slowpoke at around 82%. X-Scissor does 37-44.4% on Slowpoke and that's just the eviolite variant with no swords dance set up, if slowpoke switches into an EQ, it will take enough damage (unlikely but possibly) be KO'd on the second turn. Should it have SD set up, Drilbur will 2HKO Slowpoke before it can even attack (if switching in, regardless of moves used). If it has life orb it will definitely kill slowpoke for definite, if slowpoke switches into an EQ and then takes an X-scissor. Life orb and swords dance is a definite OHKO from X-Scissor and it is even possible from an EQ. So Slowpoke is not a definite answer to Drilbur. It only 2HKOs Drilbur so unless you're switching in, often Drilbur will still win or take a chunk out of Slowpoke in standard battling context.

    Besides this, Lilleep can return a toxic to Slowpoke. It can do nothing more than just toxic-ing Lilleep, Slowpoke is absolutely powerless. Lilleep absorbs Slowpoke's Scald with storm drain (making it risky to retaliate to Drilbur with scald) and wreck Slowpoke with giga drain. Also, most slowpokes seem to carry thunderwave rather than toxic.
  16. cxinlee

    cxinlee

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    Good point your have there. I'll run a sand team and I'll note it's counters and if it deserves a ban. I'll use the information to complete my post.
  17. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Thank you for recognising this, I'm doing the same thing. So far I haven't lost and I've played around 5-10 games, against some fairly esteemed players too.
  18. Hendog

    Hendog

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    I've spent the a bit of time testing a rather generic sand team in response to this.

    I've played 25 games using this team under the name "Disguisedlog" which took me an hour or two.

    Out of the 25 games played, I lost 2. One due to confusion hax Murkrow shenanigans along with missing 3 rock slides consecutively.
    The other was against another sand team, but also haxy shenanigans.

    I made it to 30th place in the ladder. (as it stands, obviously this may change due to others outranking me etc)

    I have played a number of decent players and other games that have interesting points to prove about the strength of Drilbur and sand of which will be included here:
    Vs. llario
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-35331261
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-35335941
    Vs. Anothertime, demonstrating the Snover’s frailty.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-35333486
    Vs. Goldenslash15 proving Bronzor and Porygon do not wall Drilbur
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-35342389
    Vs. JSegovia
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/lc-35345476

    Compared to playing with a regular team, this was absolute child's play. I had a major amount of room to fill niches and play with, whereas when I play with a usual team I run out of room rather quickly and often have to make sacrifices.#

    I would like to make apologies to exposing these games without consent.
  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Well, as long as Snover exists, Sand will never really be a bannable force. Snover by itself completely counters Sand, Stealth Rock or not, Snover counter or not. Sand teams that try to counter Snover with Steel-types will just find themselves smashed by the bulky Fighting-type that is find guarding nearly every single Snover team. (for example, Hawkstar's team has Timburr, Iss's team has Mienfoo, Sark's team has ScarFoo) Yeah, you can try to lay down Stealth Rock, but nearly every team carries a spinner, and Ghost-type spinblockers really don't have the bulk to countinuously come in and prevent spinning. Sand has massive amounts of trouble countering Snover as it can only afford 3 Pokemon max for the job while Snover teams have 5 to counter those 3. Yeah, sand is viable, but because Snover exists, it's simply not broken, and it's up to debate if it even is the best team strategy right now...

    Also, you're really overestimating the bulk of Lileep and Hippo. It might come as a shock to you, but any Hail team with a Adamant Scarfoo can demolish the common Sand core and force Sand to use walls that Snover simply munches up. Scarfoo, a Pokemon found on many Hail teams, easily OHKOs Lileep and 2HKOs Hippo with HJK. It's not just Scarfoo either- ScarfKrow, NP Missy, DD Scraggy- the whole lot can all give Sand a ton of trouble with their powerful neutral STABs. All of these troublesome Pokemon just need a partner in Snover and pretty much all of their Sand-related problens are gone.

    As I said before, if you really want to prove that Sand is broken, provide logs of Sand winning against teams with a Snover. The problem is, Snover cockblocks everything Sand has all by itself, making Sand a very unbroken strategy.


    In response to your logs:
    ~Your first opponent carried no sand counter whatsoever. Of course your Sand was able to defeat him.
    ~Second opponent, no offense to whoever he was, 1. Did not use the correct Scarfoo spread and 2. Played terribly, as shown by the fact that he switched Murkrow in turn 2 to try to beat Hippo. I can bet that it was not an exprienced player. I know that team well; he didn't use it correctly in one bit.
    ~Your other two logs are ok, but it still doesn't prove that Sand is broken at all. Bronzor, as you've said yourself, is a shaky Drilbur check, and isn't even the best one, I agree, so Drilbur being able to defeat it is not that much of a shock. The Shroomish user also played Shroomish terribly; he Spored your Hippo, which is a really bad play, and he was using Toxic Orb and not Eviolite, which is a much inferior set.


    For now, focus on matches against people with Snover. I want to see you beat those kinds of teams.


    Also, if you want to prove that Sand is broken by laddering- most of the players in the top 20 use teams with Snover. There is no way a Sand team is going to be brokenly powerful in conditions such as those. Not only that but, the fact that many experienced Smogon LC players much prefer Snover over Sand is more than enough to testify that Sand is indeed not a broken strategy at all.
  20. Hendog

    Hendog

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    That's not true, what so ever. Snover isn't actually a good enough pokémon to be a solid counter for sand teams. With very little designation it is rendered useless, (refer to Vs. Anothertime). Snover cannot switch in and out as much as Hippo and cannot easily switch into Drilbur either for that matter. If you watch the replay that I have listed, it shows that if Pawniard switches into Snover's Blizzard it takes it rather nicely and after attempting to switch, along with stealth rock damage; Snover is no longer playable and dies to stealth rock upon switch in allowing Hippo to return easily and keep sand up for the rest of the game (usually a good proportion of the game because this usually happens the second Snover tries to switch in). Snover is simply not enough to balance sand teams.
    Regardless of fighting types, if Snover is pursuited it cannot be stopped and is too late, Bronzor doesn't take super effective damage from any of their attacks and can hit back with Psychic. Sand teams have a field day covering for Snover, it's quite possibly the worst "landmark" counter I've come across. Snover does not and will never balance sand.


    I've played scarfoo before, in fact I've played scarfoo way before it became popular. It's shockingly powerful, but the sacrifice of frailty actually allows it to be OHKO'd by Drilburs EQ (you may wish to check that because I'm not absolutely certain but from what I remember), I'm never going to claim that Lileep walls any kind of Meinfoo, at all. I haven't overestimated anything. But otherwise you're wrong, it is not a definite 2HKO on Hippo and it can prove risky actually trying to 2HKO it. Missing will cost you and due to the fact that Hippo can slack off the damage (because it doesn't always/mostly 2HKO). The remainder of the Pokémon you have suggested actually require Snover support to stop it being crushed by Drilbur. Which is kind of unfortunate because without these Pokémon being in effect, Snover can't be played and vice versa. So really it's kind of a cricle of failure. This makes it really hard to win against Sand, snover or not.

    May I point out that I used to use Snover as well?

    And of course everyone placed below rank 20 on the ladder is not worth worrying about.

    Referring to my actual thread, are you now accepting that teams should be Snover or Sand?

    That's very restricting.
  21. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Sand teams really aren't constructed well now a days, since there are no real good players using them. Once you hit about 1800+ no one really uses Sand, and the sand teams you do see don't prepare for Snover (for some reason)

    becasue of this I think a lot of LC players adopt the mentality that as long as you have Snover you beat sand. This isn't true at all. Sand teams have good options to beat Snover like Magnemite, Pawniard, Specially defensive Houndour, but more importantly they have access to very good Snover lures, like Rock Slide Hippo and Hidden Power Fire Lileep which just massacre Snover on a switch.

    EDIT: Stealth Rock is hard to spin on a Sand storm team. Hippo has great survivability and can get it up easily. Staryu is walled by Lileep and Lileep will last much longer than Staryu, so staryu is fighting a losing battle when it comes to spinning, it also completely loses to Specially Defensive Frillish with Giga Drain (I've seen Frillish on a few sand teams) and Mold Breaker Drilbur has difficulty against Hippo and Lileep and also has no recovery.
  22. dinodino56

    dinodino56

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    Like Electrolyte said Snover counters the main sand core of 3 pokemon. You have 3 other pokemon to beat Snover well they have 5 pokemon to beat those 3. Snover counters the main sand core while the other 5 beat the pokes that threaten Snover.

    You may say I have a pokemon that beat snover and you have stealth rock ,but guess what there is a Spinner and probably a pokemon to beat the pokemon the threatens snover.

    In the end all I can say is that sand won't be banned.
  23. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Jan 4, 2013
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    I like the way you've put that and I agree entirely. A lot of the better players are blinded by self righteous ignorance. Definitely isn't a good pokémon when you think about it, It's very easily stopped.
  24. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
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    Lol if 1. It's not a threat at all in the upper ladder and 2. Most people build it shittily anyway why ban it? It might be a threat in theory (hypothetically, this is not what I believe) but right now, it isn't. Perhaps when people start building it better as you've said, we can return to this topic?
  25. Hendog

    Hendog

    Joined:
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    1. Electrolyte... I've reached higher in the ladder than you have (I don't mean to insult you I'm just pointing this out), I've played people who use sandstorm teams to good effect and they gave me trouble even with Snover.
    2. No because there are players that are not that bad as to make inefficient sandstorm teams. Just because some people poorly construct sandstorm teams, it does not mean that they aren't unbalanced and should not be used as justification to ignore them as a problem.
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