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Banning sandstorm teams?

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Hendog, Jun 18, 2013.

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  1. Hendog

    Hendog

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    To me, all this sounds like is that you use a sandstorm team and you're defensive over it's legitimacy.
    Essentially all your post is, is recycled points about Snover defense in a poorly constructed manner of which have already been dealt with.

    Hippo is a reliable enough stealth rock layer to be able to continue to lay stealth rocks throughout the game. On top of this, the high paced offense of sandstorm teams provide little room to actually get a rapid spin off. Most spinners are also physical so walled by Hippo which can re-lay stealth rocks (bar Staryu, of which is spin blocked by Frillish and checked or countered by Lileep.)

    Please read the thread again because I've already mentioned that I am aware sand will not get banned.
  2. apt-get

    apt-get MY EXCADRILLS WILL PIERCE THE DOORS OF ARCEUS' REALM
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    lol, this stops the discussion. Snover is an amazing pokémon as it can 2HKO the ENTIRE metagame, and can 2HKO your pawniard with HP fire anyway. And why would you switch Snover in anyway? It's a Revenge Killer. If you want a bulky attacker, take the eviolite set. You're never switching in Drilbur.

    lol, that's not true at all.

    Last thing, so you know: Sandstorm teams are slow-paced. Drilbur is the only offensive pressure you get most of the time, as Drilbur/Staryu can spin on 2/3 of your defensive core (yes, because Giga Drain doesn't OHKO and staryu can always recover on Hippo while Drilbur can set up rocks of its own). Pawniard is countered by defensive foo and HP fire snover and doesn't have momentum... I don't get what's offensive in here

    And honestly anything Drilbur is going to switch into is going to 2HKO it.
  3. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    As much as I agree that most teams are either sand or Snover teams, I'd like to pop in and say this is very much false.

    A well-played Snover is entirely capable of walling sand teams consistently, and if you face someone who blindly switches in Snover into Magnemite or has no spinner to support it, then of course you will think Snover is bad. From my experience, only Wynaut is capable of truly stopping Snover, and so few sand teams run that that it is almost a non-issue.

    Sarkynin said it best: Snover is a revenge killer. It works because of the triple Ice weakness on any good sand team (Hippo, Lileep, and Drilbur) and because there is usually only one Ice resist on the team in the form of a bulky Water or a Steel-type, both of which are easy to remove in this metagame. As long as Snover is around, sand is nowhere near broken.
  4. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Are you actually joking? Snover does not 2HKO the entire metagame hahahah! It only has a measly 12.11% to 2HKO Pawniard. Maybe do some research before you jump to conclusions.

    The eviolite set? You must be kidding me. After 2 switch ins to stealth rocks it gets KO'd by Drilbur which out speeds it by a landslide even in hail.

    You haven't stopped this discussion. You've just came in with some entirely inaccurate information and put "lol" at the beginning of each sentence.



    Yes it is.

    Not necessarily, there is much slow pace in the fact that if Drilbur gets a swords dance off you're getting sweeped. If that isn't offensive pressure, I have no idea what is.

    That's definitely not always the case, a lot of pokémon wouldn't get the first hit in and secondly Drilbur isn't that frail, if you actually read the thread it shows that Bronzor 4HKOs Drilbur (unless you're part of that lucky 0.02% to get a 3HKO.)

    Besides, Drilbur is an offensive threat. Taking that into account it's rather bulky. I mean, it takes a little common sense not to switch Drilbur in if it is going to get 2HKO'd and suggesting that, making ridiculous plays to force out a context of which Drilbur loses does not make sand balanced.
  5. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Snover will never wall a well constructed sand team. It seems a lot of people base their ideas on sand teams on experiences they have had against people who run sand with no idea how to deal with Snover. Snovers ability to participate in the game is completely stopped by being forced to switch out. After 4 switches, Snover dies. If you watch the replay I put up, it shows Scarf Snover is completely unable to actually use Blizzard once whilst Pawniard with Pursuit alive and stealth rocks are up. If it does, whether it KO's a pokémon such as Lileep or is predicted and Pawniard comes in, Snover cannot escape. If it tries to escape (after taking stealth rocks damage once) it cannot switch back in because it will not have enough health to survive more stealth rock damage. Besides, no-one has said anything about Snover actually switching into Magnemite. Just that Magnemite flat out stops Snover, Snover has again 12.11% chance to 2HKO Magnemite with HP Fire. Whilst Magnemite OHKOs any Snover with HP fire. I also wouldn't say Bulky water/Steel types are easy to remove either.

    I think you're confusing what I am actually getting across about the LC metagame. I'm not saying that they are completely unstoppable. I'm just saying there are some real balancing issues.
  6. apt-get

    apt-get MY EXCADRILLS WILL PIERCE THE DOORS OF ARCEUS' REALM
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    184 SpA Snover Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-12 (47.61 - 57.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    You forgot Hail...



    After two stealth rock switch-ins Lileep is 2HKOed by Staryu's Blizzard
    After two stealth rock switch-ins Hippopotas is 2HKOed by Murkrow's brave bird or Mienfoo's HJK
    What's your point? I can also show a lot of calcs with two SR switch-ins, but with a good team it's never going to happen.
    Also, you act like Snover has no recovery

    Because there's not much to say. Sand is not broken.


    But Electrolyte is much better than you and is higher-ranked than you.



    That's what I said, Drilbur is the only offensive pressure. And honestly, what is it gonna get an SD on? Give me examples.



    Why quoting Bronzor when it's a terrible pokémon
    It's like saying Lanturn in OU for countering Tornadus/-T

    Drilbur is what makes sand good
    Drilbur doesn't often get setup opportunities and is rather frail despite being strong
    if drilbur in sand is not broken then sand is not broken
    It's as simple as this
  7. apt-get

    apt-get MY EXCADRILLS WILL PIERCE THE DOORS OF ARCEUS' REALM
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    "look at this replay of someone using my team stupidly"
    "it totally proves snover is useless"
    if you consider someone using a RMT on the ladder good enough to prove your point, then why say others are having their ideas based on their experience
    You're just contradicting yourself
  8. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte The Great Stone Dragon
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    Err, ok then this discussion is done. If you already accept yourself that Drilbur isn't broken, then the main topic of this thread has reached a conclusion: Drilbur is not broken.

    There are many reasons to this other than Snover, but Snover is still the main one. You could say that Sand forces people to run Snover to counter it- which may be true but doesn't necessitate calling sand teams "overcentralizing". Snover is not a Pokemon teams should ever center themselves around- it's merely a 'Sand is really powerful, so here's my solid, one-shot counter that also does a lot of other things for my team such as revenge kill half the meta. Now I don't have to think about handling Sand at all anymore, and I can focus on other things.' Snover is for teams that don't want to think about Sand that much- because its one slot has the ability to counter 99% of Sand teams, solid or not. It's a cheap yet reliable way to check a powerful (but not broken at all) force in the metagame. People don't HAVE to use Snover to counter Sand; there are many other ways to handle it but they just require more work and may not be as reliable as Snover is. Snover does NOT force people to use it; it does NOT force teams to center themselves around it, and it is NOT an overcentralized Pokemon that is the result of another 'overcentralized' startegy, Sand. What you said about everyone needing to use Sand or Hail is quite false- there are other ways to tackle sand other than Snover, and nobody is obligated to run sand or hail either- non weather teams are also very solid, and have the perk of not being partially ripped apart by a Pokemon that's on quite a few teams now.

    But this doesn't matter because we've already agreed that Drilbur isn't broken... right?
  9. Hendog

    Hendog

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    Not necessarily, if both sides lead with weather inducers then Sandstorm will be up rather than Hail.
    On top of that, it'd take a good prediction to actually 2HKO Pawniard.
    Plus on the second HP fire, you'd get an easy switch into Hippo to get rocks up and switch initiative.


    My point is that the Pokémon that is said to be this wonder counter for Drilbur is on a par with Drilbur after it's forced to switch. Of which will happen fairly regularly.

    Saying "Sand is not broken" isn't progressive what so ever.

    When I played LC regularly, I reached 3rd place on the ladder with the highest provisional. Whilst I haven't seen Electrolyte above 20th place.

    But please stop talking about that because I feel like big headed and cruel.


    Drilbur could get an SD off on any sort of Meinfoo without Evio (providing they aren't willing to sacrifice their Meinfoo on the chance of an SD), Scraggy is generally scared out by Drilbur and if not it can take anything Scraggy throws, Scarfed Murk/Any Murk without parafusion (or even with if they are playing safe), Spinner Drilbur whether it rapid spins or not it can still only 2HKO etc etc

    I'm struggling to understand this, should there be a question mark or is there some incorrect spelling or something? If you're saying Bronzor is terrible, that's massively debatable.

    Not always, sand teams can function without Drilbur. Of course Drilbur is a massive aid to sand teams however.
    I think saying sand Drilbur is not broken "it's as simple as this" is a bit reductive considering the entirety of this debate has been questioning that very point.

    But woah sorry, of course; you say it's as simple as that so it's over.
  10. Hendog

    Hendog

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    I'm just showing how easily Snover is dealt with. I doubt that a simply play like that could stop sand.
    I never said this was good enough to prove my point. I actually did it because Electrolyte suggested showing some replays, but I agree that they might not have been specifically what he asked for.

    Okay well the topic was sand teams not Drilbur. I don't remember saying such things anyway.

    See, now you're going back to what you said before. We've already had this discussion about pokémon outside of Snover that stop Drilbur and we didn't really come to a conclusion. Exactly, have you ever considered why sand is over emphasised? You more or less admitted yourself that Snover was the main reason for sandstorm teams being legal. Along with other people coming in and agreeing that Sand or Snover is what the metagame is based around. So this wasn't really a conclusion I'm afraid. It more dug up issues that I thought we'd moved on from.
    But I still am not sure I said that Drilbur wasn't broken. Nor is this entire conversation about Drilbur alone.
  11. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble

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    Ladder doesn't mean anything about skill. I've had 17-0 record on an alt with Starf Harvest exeggute if it shows how bad the ladder is. Ladder rating basically says how good you are at spending time stomping people that use Aipom and Barbaroach.

    Having played at least 400 games of Little Cup on PS, here's my analysis of Sand. :
    95% of sand teams are bad and rely on hoping that opponent doesn't roflstomp them with a Snover and just climb ladder by beating any team without Snover.
    The 5% of sand teams that are properly built are actually good and may/may not be broken. Basically unless you have 3 or more hard checks/counters to sand rush you'll lose against good sand teams.

    And stop running priority calcs against Drilbur, they'll do 2/5 the damage against Sandshrew. Until people learn how to actually use sand properly sand is not an issue and doesn't need a ban. In the meanwhile, I'll keep abusing it to my hearts content with a 95% winrate wheeeeee~~

    On a side note, Dragon Dance charmander will never be viable. Even LC UU on PO, charmander is not used. Banning sand won't help you there.
  12. Electrolyte

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    That is the quote that I was referring to. You yourself admitted that Sand wasn't going to be banned. From that quote I assumed you also meant that you felt that Drilbur is also not broken enough to be banned; after all, Drilbur is its strongest insude Sand, which you've already admitted is not going to get banned.

    To sum up this discussion, here are the reasons why I (and most other LC players) feel as if Sand isn't broken.

    1. Snover

    We've gone over this many times throughout this thread already, but there still seems to be some disagreement and misunderstanding. A well played Snover can successfully keep any equally well played Sand team at bay. Yes, Sand does have ways to check Snover as well, but it's still extremely tough to counter Snover successfully before it removes your Sand. Steel-types are obliterated by HP Fire, and Fire-types can be worn down by Stealth Rock even more easily than Snover can, as it is unsynergetic for Sand teams to carry spinners (Drilbur needs coverage, Staryu is further Snover smash bait). It's also a lot easier for 5 Snover teammates to counter the three Snover counters found on Sand teams; this is something that I have been emphasizing for a while now. Snover doesn't completely demolish Sand to the point where Sand is unviable, and the well built Sand team may occasionally win against a team with Snover, but such pccasions are rare and far less than what is needed to prove that Snover is not indeed a Sand counter. Also, remember that this is a weather war, not a sweeper war. Sure, you can take out Snover, but if Hippo is already down and Hail is up, it doesn't matter when Snover is countered; Sand has already been lost.

    2. Well built Sand is rare, even in the upper ladder.

    Now, this may be subject to change, but it is entirely true right now and is a major roadblock for people that want to prove that Sand is broken. Sand teams are built so sloppily these days that teams can even avoid having to use Snover to counter Sand. While this may not necessarily prove that Sand is actually not broken, it is a reason for us to avoid banning it right now. EVEN IF you say that Sand has the potential to be broken if built well, which seems like a big part of your current argument, you cannot use that to justify that Sand is broken, because not enough people have built well-built Sand teams yet to make Sand a legitmate, overcentralizing force that is worthy of a ban. If, one day, people begin to utilize teams that DO show the full threatening potential of Sand and it DOES appear to be broken, we can then return to this discussion. Until then, any further discussion is useless and will not convince anyone.
  13. Shouting

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    "Well played Snover" and "Conservative Snover" is really not cutting it for me. Specially defensive Houndour literally hard-counters Hidden Power Fire Snover and pursuits it. No matter how "well" you play, you are beaten by ONE Pursuit if stealth rock is on the field, which is very common. Smart play doesn't prevent you from being trapped, that's like saying with smart play Missy can beat Stunky 1 on 1 but that's nonsense because Stunky will always beat Missy no matter what moveset or choice of moves it has.

    It doesn't matter about the rest of the team. You could have as many fighting types as you want to check my houndour but they won't stop houndour from doing it's job which is pursuing Snover. Stealth Rock doesn't matter because Houndour comes in once, tanks a hit, pursuits, and is done. It doesn't need to come in more than once so it really doesn't matter if it's stealth rock weak. Snover will need to change the weather more than once though.


    Snover doesn't 2HKO the entire metagame either...

    Oh, and honestly sand rush Drilbur is probably one of the best spinners out there because of the switches it causes. Most of the times I don't bother with stealth rock against sand because Hippo, Drilbur, Pawniard, Magnemite, Sandshrew, and a lot of other sand staples all resist it and it's very easily spun away.
  14. dcae

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    I'm just going to start off here and say wtf. Who would ever lead off with a Snover?

    Moving on to your other points, you are simply assuming that your Sand team player is excellent and has a well-built team. You are also assuming the Snover user is an incompetent. The thing is, Snover singlehandedly makes more than half of the Sand team useless. It is a one mon answer to half of a Sand team, and that is what makes it so good. Sand would probably be centralizing if Snover didn't exist, but as it exists atm, there is no way Sand would be banned, especially since its heyday has passed. Snover is now far more dominant, and Sand is decreasing in usage a lot.
  15. dinodino56

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    Who runs Specially Defensive Houndour. Houndour itself is not even common and your talking about a Special Defensive Set. Choice Scarf Snover easily beats standard sets.

    184 SpA Snover Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Houndour: 8-10 (42.1 -52.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I really don't see how a Snover doesn't counter Sand Teams in general. Also who runs SpDef Houndour 1 in a Million. In the metagame you are suppose to defeat the most common threats not some random ones.
  16. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    This thread is done. To be honest, it was never much to begin with, and I had considered closing it seven posts in, but decided not to in case it garnered good discussion. Unfortunately, that has not been the case; I have seen badged users resort to petty name calling, and people I thought to be the best behaved Little Cup players act rather poorly.

    I liked the effort Hendog, but in the future, get your threads approved. For everyone involved, thank you for posting, but do be less insulting. There were many sections of these posts that had me wanting to delete what was said, but for the sake of the discussion that was had, I will not do that.

    If I see some of the behavior that I have seen in this thread in others (resorting to ladder rank as an indicator of authority, insulting each other via ranking, petty back and forth "Yes it is" "No it's not" "Yes it is" "Bite me I am higher on the ladder," or anything as juvenile) I will not hesitate to infract the post. None of that is to be tolerated in a civil discussion.

    Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. It is over now, though.
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