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Bastiodon (Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Aerrow, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Bastiodon


    Here are a couple of things you should note before reading and/or posting a reply in this Bastiodon Update thread:

    • This is my first full update of a Pokemon (anything I’ve posted in C&C before was dealing with Pokemon in LC who didn’t have an analysis yet; like Charmander, Cyndaquil and Shieldon) so please let me know if I make any mistakes.
    • And of course the reason I decided to give Bastiodon an Update: the last Update it had was over 2 years ago and a couple of the sets listed are not very effective in the current metagame like the Curse Talk and Metal Sound sets.
    Here’s what I’ve done to the Bastiodon Analysis (in order):

    • Removed the Offensive Curse Talk and Metal Sound Sets and put them in the Other Option section as mentions
    • Added an Overview, and changed the entire format to the new one (by removing the EV’s section, added a Team Options section, etc)
    • Mad minor changes to the sets concerning move slashes, etc
    • And for the other info which was fine, I’ve just reworded it
    • I've also added a Torment set recommended by many people; also I've tested it and its proved to be quite effective
    • I’ve removed the all out offensive Metal Burst set and renamed the Defensive Metal Burst Set to just the Metal Burst set
    • Changed the ordering of the sets: the Support set is first, the Torment set is second and the Metal Burst set is third

    |Status: Ready for Upload!|
    |QC Approved: [FlareBlitz][Bluewind]|
    |GP Checks: [bugmaniacbob][Fatecrashers]|

    ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■

    [Overview]

    <p>Bastiodon, although possessing gargantuan defenses and access to many useful support moves including Stealth Rock, Toxic, and Taunt, has always been overlooked for a role on a team due to its lackluster offenses. But thanks to moves such as Metal Burst and Torment, Bastiodon can present a serious threat when given the proper reinforcement, as well as being a defensively orientated, supportive Pokemon.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Stealth Rock / Rest
    move 2: Toxic
    move 3: Roar / Taunt
    move 4: Iron Head / Stone Edge / Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With its amazing base defenses, and access to an array of supporting moves, it seems as though Bastiodon was designed to play the role of a supporting Pokemon on a UU team. Not only can the prehistoric Pokemon set up the always valuable valuable Stealth Rock, it can also provide stall or balanced teams with Toxic support, maximizing the effectiveness of the team’s strategy, as well as being an efficient phazer that can be utilized on almost any UU team.</p>

    <p>Rest is an alternative to Stealth Rock which can be used in conjunction with Sandstorm support, making Bastiodon quite durable. Taunt is another valuable asset, as it prevents many bulky foes, like Miltank, from simply healing off Toxic damage, as well as stopping common foes, most notably Venusaur, from putting Bastiodon to sleep and setting up. Roar can be used to slowly chip away at an opponent’s health with residual damage when entry hazards are up; it is also useful if you find yourself facing an opponent who has already set up. The final moveslot will hold Bastiodon’s only attacking move and the decision of which one to use is based upon your preference; both Iron Head and Stone Edge are great STAB attacks, but since the latter is not fully accurate, Rock Slide can be used instead of for better accuracy in exchange for less Base Power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Leftovers and an Impish nature are used in tandem to increase Bastiodon’s overall bulk and longevity in the battle as it will often be switching in repeatedly to check certain Pokemon. The EVs are used for a similar function as the nature; to increase Bastiodon’s bulk while focusing on its durability on the special side, as its physical defense is already very impressive. It should be noted, however, that you can alter the EVs to make Bastiodon slightly more offensive, as it may need the extra Attack investment due to its mediocre base 52 Attack stat.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Torment
    move 1: Torment
    move 2: Substitute / Toxic
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Roar / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A great amount of bulk, coupled with Bastiodon’s massive base defenses, along with its access to moves such as Protect and Roar, Bastiodon can be turned into a fierce Torment user when given the proper support. The strategy to this set is simple; Torment an opponent to block their STAB or super effective move, follow up with a cycle of the other moves mentioned in the set, repeat until the foe’s HP bar reaches 0.</p>

    <p>The decision between using Substitute or Toxic comes down to your personal preference; although Substitute can act as a reliable barrier when one foe has fainted and another switches in, allowing you to set up Torment again without taking any damage at all, Toxic makes the entire Torment-stall process faster as with it, the opponent will be taking a lot more residual damage every passing turn; without Toxic, the stalling process will take a lot more time. Protect is a staple on the set as it allows Bastiodon to regain health every turn through Leftovers while also being able to stack up more and more residual damage on the opposing Pokemon. The last move slot is given to Roar, which can be effectively used alongside entry hazards or simply for phazing; Toxic can also be fitted into this slot if you prefer its stalling capabilities over Roar’s phazing ones.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The nature and EVs have been chosen and distributed to make Bastiodon as bulky as possible, on both the physical and the special side, while also retaining a huge amount of HP, making it more effective in this role; if you decide that instead of being bulky on the special side, you want to focus primarily on being physically bulky in order to take most Fighting-type attacks better, the EV spread and nature can be changed accordingly. Also, it should be noted that any user of Taunt will completely shut down this Bastiodon set as it relies solely on defeating enemies through the use of indirect damage.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Metal Burst
    move 1: Taunt
    move 2: Metal Burst
    move 3: Stealth Rock / Earthquake
    move 4: Earthquake / Stone Edge / Iron Head
    item: Leftovers / Focus Sash
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Atk
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Aside from Aggron and Dialga, Bastiodon is the only Pokemon who can learn the fearsome move Metal Burst, which is the equivalent of Mirror Coat and Counter, except that Metal Burst works on both physical and special attacks. When Bastiodon’s natural defenses, bulk and mediocre Speed are taken into account, it becomes clear, that with the proper support, Bastiodon can effectively use Metal Burst to its advantage and take out many opposing threats.</p>

    <p>Taunt and Metal Burst are staples on the set as their combination forces the opposition to attack, which means Bastiodon can use Metal Burst to inflict twice the damage caused by the incoming attack. Stealth Rock is mainly mentioned for supportive purposes, as Bastiodon can still be an offensively-orientated Pokemon while having a supportive pivot; if you feel as Stealth Rock is unnecessary, an attacking move can be used instead. Since this set focuses primarily on the combination of Taunt and Metal Burst, it is very susceptible to users of Taunt. Thus, the final moveslot is best filled by a move that causes direct damage. Earthquake can be a valuable asset as it hits many common threats in UU for super effective damage, while Stone Edge is also viable as it is boosted by STAB and also hits Flying-types, which Earthquake is unable to do. Iron Head is another option, but compared to the two aforementioned moves, it is not recommended due to the low Base Power, even after STAB.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Leftovers along with a Careful nature help increase Bastiodon’s bulk and defensive prowess, allowing it to survive a larger array of attacks from a range of users and retaliate with Metal Burst, although it should be noted that a Focus Sash can be used to defeat foes like Choice Band Hariyama and offensive Hitmontop who are otherwise guaranteed the OHKO on Bastiodon. The EVs are used to maximize Bastiodon’s bulk and make it more specially defensive, as it will need the extra EV investment when facing foes like Milotic and Houndoom; also, a 0 IV in Speed ensures that the opponent always gets to attack first, before Bastiodon uses Metal Burst.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Sandstorm support provided by Hippopotas can almost be called a necessity when using any Bastiodon set, as the Special Defense boost gained from the weather condition greatly aids Bastiodon in performing its role on a UU team effectively. Since Fighting-Type Pokemon cause huge problems for Bastiodon, it would be wise to include a Pokemon who can deal with them; Slowbro, courtesy of its natural bulk and Psychic-typing, can easily check common Fighting-types and KO them with a STAB Psychic. Slowbro can also help deal with Bastiodon’s Ground-type weakness as it can deal serious damage to Ground-types with a STAB Surf. Similarly, Weezing can also be a valuable defensive partner to Bastiodon as the two Pokemon have decent synergy with each other. If you are looking for a decent offensive partner to Bastiodon, Swellow would be a great candidate, as not only can it defeat the Fighting-types which plague Bastiodon’s existence, it can also start a sweep of its own, leaving Bastiodon to clean up after it.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Outside of the mentioned sets, Bastiodon doesn’t have many other options to choose from; sets utilizing Metal Sound, Curse, and Rest can be utilized, but compared to the mentioned sets, their usage and viability are really limited. Also, an all-out offensive set revolving around Curse, Metal Sound and two attacking moves can be used, but due to Bastiodon’s mediocre base 52 Attack stat, and lack of a reliable recovery move, it is not recommended. For any of Bastiodon’s sets, an EV spread of 252 HP / 8 Atk / 192 SpD can be used if you’re intent on being able to break the Substitutes of Nasty Plot Mismagius and Sub-Charge Rotom.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Even with Bastiodon’s immense defenses, Fighting-types like Hitmontop and Hariyama are excellent counters as they can 2HKO, and in some cases even OHKO Bastiodon after it has taken some residual damage. Similar to the aforementioned Fighting-types, bulky Ground-types also cause problems for Bastiodon with their super effective STAB attacks and immunity to Sandstorm, a factor Bastiodon heavily relies on to slowly wear down bulky foes. It should be noted, however, that when sending in a counter to face Bastiodon, you must beware of the possibility that Bastiodon may survive the attack and strike back, literally with twice the power, with Metal Burst. Finally, any user of Taunt will be able to defeat the sets lacking an attacking move.</p>
  2. Oglemi

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    I don't understand the Offensive set. Not only are you trying to turn a Pokemon with only base 52 Attack into an offensive Pokemon, you're doing it without any sort of recovery. Even if Bastiodon could accumalate a few Curses, he isn't going to be "rampaging" anything unless the rest of the team is Chansey, Swellow, and (I can't even think of a third Pokemon that wouldn't carry a super-effective attack to hit Bastiodon.)

    Even with the EVs you give, a 0 SpA Milotic is still doing 43.2% - 51.9% to your Bastiodon, which means even if you Metal Burst, it won't KO Milotic back while she can just Recover the next turn and Surf you again, heal, and finish you off the next time. To me, I just don't know how it'd work.
  3. breh

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    Well... First of all it needs Hippo, who is a required teammate.

    Second of all offensive is a terrible idea

    Third where is torment? That's arguably its best set.

    Fourth, what is rock blast doing? I don't think it will break any sub, let alone hit after it breaks without 3 critical hits..

    FYI Azumarill's sub is broken only 1/10th of the time, discounting critical hits and assuming 252 HP; you will never hit past the sub, though
  4. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

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    Agreeing with Breludicolo. From what I see, a Torment set needs to be on here, as I'm seeing the Torment and Support sets the best options for Bastiodon. Also, Roar goes through Substitute, making Rock Blast only useful for not getting screwed by Taunt.

    EDIT: I'll be a nice guy, and include the Torment set that I've found effective:
    Bastiodon@Leftovers
    Calm Nature
    252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    -Torment
    -Protect
    -Toxic
    -Roar

    A good amount of people use Substitute over Toxic, but I've found Toxic to be more effective, as you can wear the enemy down pretty easily. It also allows a Torment set to not rely on a Toxic Spikes user, giving more versitality on your team. You can decide whether to use the popular Substitute in the third slot or try Toxic. Either way, though, Hippopotas is almost a required partner, as it sets up Sandstorm and Stealth Rock.
  5. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Lol. To be honest with you guys, when I tested the Offensive set I wasn't pleased with it myself and originally, I wasn't going to post it in the Update but after reading the old Bastiodon Analysis thread, and seeing how many people liked it, I decided to include it in the Update. But as I can see, not too many people are psyched about it right now so I'll remove the set from the Update. Concerning your arguments of the Support set and using Rock Blast, I'm going to remove it and add in Stone Edge/ Iron Head as the fourth move in that set. Also, I'll add Hippopotas as a partner; I seriously don't know what got into me ... forgetting to add Hippo in the Teammates section ... sorry guys. And finally, the torment set; I've been testing it for approximately 30 battles on Shoddy and it's very effective so I'll include that set in the OP.
  6. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Bump ...
  7. Friar

    Friar

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    A Torment set like you have (aka in the style of OU TormentTran) really needs Substitute imo. Torment Skarmory, for example, does not need Substitute because its main goal is to simply set up layers and layers of Spikes while dodging the problematic attacks it cant handle. This set, on the other hand, wants to remain untouchable for as long as possible and slowly stall stuff out. Substitute helps with this because it means switching around between attackers is not a viable way to get rid of Bastiodon. Without substitute, you could torment a CB Azumarill (which is great!), but then on the protect they just switch out to Scarf Hitmonlee and you're hosed. With Substitute, you can win in this situation by Tormenting Azumarill, Subbing on the Struggle / switch, and then Torment again...rinse...win.

    So... Torment / Substitute / Protect are non negotiable in my opinion. The last slot should be slashed as Roar / Rock Blast (or some other attack) / Toxic. The set should really be run with TSpikes anyway, because that gives Bastiodon the time to focus on repeating Torment ---> Sub ---> Protect, while not having to find a turn (which it probably wont have) to Toxic. Roar would be much better on the free turn with hazards up (again, a must have in conjunction with this set) should you get one.

    Also, I'm questioning all that Special Defense if you're going to be in Sand anyway, doesn't that boost mean you can run some defense?
  8. Aerrow

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    Concerning your opinion about Torment / Substitute / Protect being essential in Torment Bastiodon's success, I agree but at the same time, I know from personal experience with this set (when I was testing it), that Toxic can also be used over Substitute effectively although in a couple of cases, it may decrease Bastiodon's effectiveness at stalling out its opponent. So taking this into mind, I'll slash Toxic with Roar while keeping the slash with Substitute, if you don't mind. Also, about your question about the whole load of SpD investments; I understand what you're saying so I'll split the investments to 112 SpD / 144 Def. That EV set doesn't really accomplish anything other than evening out Bastiodon's defensive stats so if anyone has a better one, let me know.
  9. Örly

    Örly

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    I think a spread of 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD with a Calm or Careful nature (depending if you are using attack moves or not, as Calm takes less from confusion). This is the best overall spread unless your spreads survive anything specific.

    And let me be honest. The only thing Bastidon has over Registeel are Torment, Roar, and Taunt; otherwise, it is outclassed and there is no reason to use it. Here is the only (maybe one other) set that Bastidon does that Registeel can't. Also, notice I made some changes with the order of the moves (Substitute is more important than Protect as your goal is to Substitute, Torment, and then Protect), last move slot, and the EV spread.

    name: Torment
    move 1: Torment
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Toxic / Roar / Taunt
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD

    name: Support
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Toxic / Stealth Rock
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Rock Slide
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 56 Def / 192 SpD
    I also made changes with this one. Rock Slide is the most reliable STAB move. It hits Mismagius, Rotom, Venusaur, and Blaziken all in one move; and it has more accuracy and PP than Stone Edge. The EVs guarantee you break SubCharge Rotom's and Mismagius's Substitutes as well as optimal bulk.
  10. Aerrow

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    Hello, and thanks for posting your suggestions! Considering your changes with the Torment set, it seems that all you did is change the ordering of the moves (I know that it's important) and changed the EV spread. Could you please state what your EV spread accomplishes? I would like to acknowledge that piece of information before making any changes. Also, for your listed changes on the Support set, you changed the EV's without giving reasoning; could you please explain what that EV spread does? About Rock Slide; I admit that the added accuracy and PP can be helpful in many situations but once you take Bastiodon's mediocre attack stat, it makes more sense to pack a move with more power to maximize the damage output.
  11. Örly

    Örly

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    You still break NP Mismagius and Sub Rotom's Substitutes (provided they are not bulky).

    The EV spread I obtained is from the applet. It obtains maximum overall bulk.

    Edit: Check my first post again. I changed the EV spread on the support set to guarantee Bastidon breaks SubCharge Rotom's Substitutes with Rock Slide.
  12. Aerrow

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    To be honest, I'm still not entirely convinced; though Rock Slide does break those substitutes, I'm looking at overall efficiency and power in the move. So I'll leave this topic up for debate among other members of C&C.

    EDIT: Okay, I guess that does make the EV Spread useful, but as I said before, I'm keeping this topic up for debate as I want more than one person's opinion on this matter.
  13. Örly

    Örly

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    It only has 5 BP less than Iron Head and that's not that bad for a defensive Pokemon. Gyarados uses Waterfall and it only has 80 BP. The difference in attack power wouldn't be huge because Bastidon has pretty bad attack stat anyways. Rock Slide also allows it to deal more than 8 hits max (not that it should, but if the need arises) and the higher accuracy than Stone Edge can come in handy too.

    Rock Slide is better than Iron Head due to its much better neutral coverage while also being better than Stone Edge because of more PP and accuracy. Think of it like this: it has the reliability of Iron Head and the neutral coverage of Stone Edge in one.
  14. Aerrow

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    Well, I guess after many valid points mentioned, Rock Slide should be given a slash on the Support set as a minimum. I'll update the OP with the changes you mentioned about said set. By the way, I'll switch the ordering of moves on the Torment set as well, as I agreed with this from the start.
  15. FlareBlitz

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    I would recommend slashing Rock Slide in with Iron Head on the Support set, yes. I would also recommend finding a slot for Taunt, as it really helps Bastiodon differentiate itself from other Steel types like Registeel and Steelix; Taunt also works very well with Toxic, letting you prevent things like Miltank from just healing on you, and Taunting Pokemon on the switch lets you switch around without fearing any set up. Taunt can go over Stealth Rock.
    Your EVs are also inefficient; 252 HP/8 Atk/248 SpD with an Impish nature gets you more total stats.

    Torment sounds really cool. I look forward to testing it. I can probably optimize the EV spreads on that too, so don't finalize anything yet.

    I am unsure about Metal Burst viability. It pairs nicely with Taunt and Roar, yes, but Bastiodon can't Taunt before the opponent sets up, meaning anything with Substitute, a set up move, or a team support move (i.e. most things) will beat you up. Will test and get back to you.
  16. Aerrow

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    Thanks for the suggestions, FlareBlitz!

    Concerning your suggestions about Rock Slide, I was going to slash it with Iron/ Head and Stone Edge as you can tell be the previous posts, but I guess I had forgotten .... Also, I'll slash Taunt with Stealth Rock. About your suggestion about the EV spread on the Support Set; the EV's currently on the set had been suggested by user Örly allow Bastiodon's Rock Slide to break the substitutes of both Nasty Plot Mismagius and SubCharge Rotom. To be honest, after a bit of testing, I found this EV spread inferior to a much more defensive one like the one you suggested due to the specific circumstances needed for Orly's EV spread to be useful; so I think its okay to switch to your EV spread and mention Orly's spread in the Other Options section.
  17. Örly

    Örly

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    Your spread (excluding HP) adds up to 783, while my spread adds up to 782 (again, excluding HP). I would still mention my spread in AC, as it provides the most balance between defenses. However, I think the best spread would utilize a bonus point (if possible).

    Bonus points: 72 Def, 192 Def, and 232 Def. (May be one more.)
  18. Bluewind

    Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fea
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    Ok, I didn't have much time to test it, but here is a thought: I really think the third and first set should be fused. Bastiodon's third set is simply a Taunt + Metal Burst combination paired with 2 attacks that come from a bottom of the barrel Attack and surely won't hurt shit; so at best I'd mention it on Other Options section. My idea is turning this one into the man set:

    name: Support
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Toxic
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Metal Burst
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP/156 Def/ 100 SpD

    On the few games I used Bastiodon, I found this to be his most efficient set. Taunt, Toxic and Metal Burst are really good together, because they somewhat erase the need of a direct damage dealing move such as Iron Head and Rock Slide; while also giving you some sort of option to mess your opponent's team up if he decides to switch forever. Slashes obviously are to be mentioned (Roar over SR and so on), but I believe those should be the four main attacks. The SpDef allows it to survive 2 Surfs from standart bulky Milotic, which means you can Taunt in the first turn and Metal Burst in the second safely.

    I'll leave more opinions here when I have the chance, but for now I'll see what other QC members think of that.
  19. Aerrow

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    Thanks for the suggestion, Bluewind. Here's what I'd like to say about your comments; I've been testing the set you posted in the positions of both the Support and Metal Sound set and it has proven to be more effective than both of them. So to pu this in short, I would like to merge the support and metal sound sets into one but I'll wait until another QC member posts his or her opinion on this change before I actually make the change in the OP.
  20. Aerrow

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    Bump; Please, could a QC member take a look at this?
  21. Aerrow

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    Bump; I really don't mean to triple post.
  22. FalknerLevel7Pidgey

    FalknerLevel7Pidgey

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    Great analysis! This moveset is VERY usable in OU... and even beats Torment-Tran in some regards. However, I would opt for max spDef as someone mentioned so that subs aren't as easily broken (factoring in the spDef boost from Sandstorm). I'm surprised this guy isn't used in Stall teams at all.
  23. NightShadow

    NightShadow

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    Great analysis, though you might want to mention that Torment is quite hard to pull of due to its pathetic typing. Same typing as aggron.

    Also i just wanted to bump this because it deserves more attention as its almost finished.
  24. Aerrow

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    Thanks for the comment! About your suggestion, I personally don't think that should be mentioned since even though Bastiodon's typing is a bit lacking, its massive defenses make up for that and allow it to successfully Torment-stall in most situations it would be confronted with in battle.
  25. Aerrow

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    1,557
    Gonna bump this thread; could QC members check/ re-check this analysis please?

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