Baton Pass in SM OU

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Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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#1
This is where discussion on the tiering status of Baton Pass will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that Baton Pass should be banned as a whole from the OU metagame or why it should remain in the tier as is, under the current clause.

The OU Council believes that Baton Pass, as a move, should be banned from the SM OU metagame. Despite having a clause implemented to hinder Baton Pass teams, there are clearly still effective teams that make use of this strategy. Baton Pass teams are one of the most controversial parts of the metagame currently and this is in large part due to the strategy behind them, passing stat boosts to threatening Pokemon that can take advantage of them without many drawbacks. Common abusers of this strategy, such as Necrozma, Magearna, and Espeon, take advantage of being passed Speed boosts from Scolipede and then set up on their own, proceeding to sweep through a significant portion of the metagame and teams that are used. Therefore, the OU council believes that these teams have no place in the SM OU metagame and we must do something to change this.

If we were to consider amending the current clause, then any prospective future clause would likely be largely arbitrary and generally a lackluster solution to the full problem at hand. Additionally, the current clause, as is, seems to be ineffective in the current metagame because people found ways to use the aforementioned Baton Pass teams in a broken fashion. Moreover, banning the move Baton Pass as a whole will be a clear-cut solution as the strategy will be eliminated from the metagame and there will be no ways around that.

This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion and then we will post an ultimate decision on the topic. Please keep all posts and discussion relevant to the current SM OU metagame.
 
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#2
I would like to delve deeper into the reasons why I, alongside the rest of the council, personally feel that a blanket ban of the move BP is the appropriate tiering decision.

I'd like to preface my main argument by saying that the most recent changes to the clause, however many there were, were a mistake. I mean this in no disrespectful way to those of past tiering, but complex bans especially to this over-layered degree are senseless. So, let's go back to a time before any BP clause for a bit of history and understanding of processes. Baton Pass was roaming free, with the classic dEnIsSsS pass clearly warranting some sort of tiering action at the time. Now, there were many key passers that contributed to the overall brokenness of the strategy. Smeargle, Scolipede, Mew, Vaporeon... the list goes on. So, what is the one common factor that enabled all these pokemon to thrive? Baton Pass, of course. However, good ol' preservation mindsets kicked in and for some reason it was decided that only 3 Baton Passers per team would be fine. Evidently it was not fine, and even so, people persisted that limiting it to 1 passer would surely solve all issues. Well, geopass Smeargle and Iron Defense Scolipede still were deemed to be problematic. Now, instead of banning the again obvious commonality, the overall move Baton Pass, it was again insisted upon Smogon that we keep on preserving drypass and revise the clause (for the third time, mind you) to: only 1 passer per team; cannot pass speed + other boosts. Yes, our current clause really is that disgusting and complex.

Fast forward to May 20th, 2017, and Baton Pass is still stirring as much controversy as ever. Going with the notion that BP in its current state in the SM OU metagame is broken, we clearly have to act somehow. This leaves us with 2 options: 1) making BP clause v4, or 2) blanket banning the move Baton Pass. I think it's pretty clear that dragging out this clause any further is absolutely ludicrous, in both its inability to address the real issue and also the entirely unnecessary complexity that it poses. I mean, the current clause that I bolded above is utterly repulsive. For those of you who say "well if we just ban speed passing then all issues are solved", don't. It doesn't matter if BP even is balanced with that new theoretical clause, because a complex ban of this nature to preserve nothing of substance is completely unnecessary. Even in some hypothetical world where drypassing or subpassing exists in SM OU, we still don't dance around complexities to save some options. Note that we banned Blaziken, not speed boost Blaziken, and in ORAS we banned Greninja, not protean Greninja. What I'm saying is, Smogon bans single and complete pokemon whenever possible. When one other element of a game, be it an ability or a move, breaks multiple pokemon, then we tackle (still simply) said issue. So, in the case of OHKO moves, we ban them altogether as they break multiple pokemon; we don't ban every pokemon that learns OHKO moves. You can say that sleep clause is complex, but it was done because 1) it's better than banning all sleep-using pokemon; 2) better than banning all sleep moves; 3) there is significant historical precedent for such a thing; and really 4) it is still far more simple than our current iteration of the BP clause.

Now, even if you do not think Baton Pass in its current state is broken, a blanket ban on the move is nevertheless the ideal option for Smogon. Let me go back to my point where I say that past tiering was a mistake. Because really, this is a mistake we can fix. Just because it already happened doesn't mean we have to live with a suboptimal reality forever. To go through the minutia of Smogon's tiering: 1) it is neither feasible nor logical to ban all the pokemon that wield Baton Pass; 2) there is nothing worth preserving with a highly complex ban; and 3) there is a simple commonality between all original broken aspects that we can directly address. So, let's tackle this issue head on for once and put an end to years of complex BP tiering in current gens, which is done by banning Baton Pass.
 
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#3
ayaa we got another thread :toast:

IMO the main problem with baton pass is the total lack of interaction between players. I mean the BP player will do approximately the exact same moves in every game whatever is the match up (I admit I exaggerate a lot but that's just to help you to grab what I want to say).
BP is a playstyle which revolves a lot on getting a positive match up but with the SM addition (magearna, necrozma or even xurkitree) it now gets a positive match up like 80% of the time which is absurd at least.
In the end we have a totally skill-less playstyle which ends game since team preview and even the worst player can crush some of the best (that's pokémon so everyone can beat everyone that's true, but it's WAY more common with baton pass).

In the end i'd like to see Baton Pass Banned as it will result in a way more healthy metagame imo, I'm here to play Pokémon not "clicking the same moves and hoping to get a nice match up".
 
#4
I'm glad this post has been made.

The issue is most would say baton pass is not broken as a whole certainly not what it once was back in xy. Yet, it still is able to consistently win games over and over on ladder(that post includes stall as well, but there's already a post for that here). Many feel there was a pause in discuss about baton pass because of the addition to Mega Heracross to the metagame. This was a fair reason to pause but also completely ignoring the fact heracross is well known for being one of the best recipients of speed boosts with his access to moves sd and abusing his ability, with cc, pin, and rock blast. That is all you need to sweep in this metagame. This is along with the fact baton pass can adapt as this replay shows....

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-576995529

Many would say he has a pretty nice anti baton pass team. Mega Heracross,Trick Scarf Lati..etc

Baton pass was still able to muscle through and even remove the best mega for baton pass(because z moves are unhealthy and broken, but that's another story).

Baton pass has not had the same impact in tour play that it has on ladder... because most tour players know how to potentially win but that doesn't mean it hasn't won a nice amount of games. From Suspect Tours to Ost to Smog Tour baton pass has been used and won with. User z0mOG made used his bp to make it to a final in smog tour with baton pass and only didn't use it one previous round.

I also wanna highlight how most of these baton passes need dugtrio to survive. When the dugtrio suspect was around baton pass was certainly much easier to handle and take down. There is also the matter of there was ben gay baton pass such as koko screens and let mew set up which is why you can't suspect things like speed boost or Scolipede(Zamrock *smh).

The only way to deal with baton pass is to quick ban it. There is no reason for a suspect we have already had a ton of suspects witnessing how stupid baton pass is. Along with even council members with this most recent suspect using baton pass to get reqs. I'm assuming they wanted to see exactly how stupid the shit is and it seems it resulting in this highly requested post.

Anyway, no one didn't really expect baton pass to be still so relevant and destructive in this metagame when denissss helped make the current clause. Even he himself is surprised bp is still seeing crazy usage. Removing the clause and removing baton pass the move from the tier is the best thing we can do and I'm certainly for it.

Passers:


Abusers:



Furthermore, Quick Ban Baton Pass

 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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#5
Frankly I'm not sure how to confidently approach this issue regarding Baton Pass. Personally I feel the clauses we made in the past & currently have in place are extremely convoluted, and the reason Baton Pass still persists as an issue today is because those clauses just "half-ass" their way around the core issue of Baton Pass. We could just do away with all of those clauses outright and just resort to either two solutions: ban Baton Pass outright, or ban any sort of stat passing alongside Baton Pass (<- at this point, the only restriction we have yet to place on Baton Pass). The former is a lot simpler, whereas the latter keeps Baton Pass around purely as a means of pivoting (DryPassing) without any of the clauses restricting the number of DryPassers to be used on a team.

The biggest question wracking my mind is whether DryPass is worth keeping, because numerous people have said that 'Baton Pass doesn't deserve special treatment', and on one hand I am inclined to agree with this; after all, if restrictions can be placed on Baton Pass to keep it in the meta, what more could be done with other potentially broken moves to keep them around? On the other hand, banning Baton Pass in its entirety does hinder lower tiered Pokemon who do make use of DryPassing. While I'm not particularly adamant about either decision, it's probably best to determine now whether we just go with the straightforward ban approach and incur some collateral, or replace all existing clauses with "StatPass clause" to keep DryPass around at the risk of introducing some potentially awkward precedent in the future.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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#7
I would like to start off first by saying I think the move Baton Pass is inherently broken.

I have been in favor of quick banning the move as a whole for a little while now. To be honest, my primary reason has been to clean up the clause. Why use a complex ban when we could make it so simple? There’s no merit to protecting dry passing, and it is extremely questionable as to whether the current clause nerfs the move enough to the point that it’s healthy in the metagame. Even with this clause in place, Baton Pass is still an effective strategy. I believe it’s quite clear that without this clause, the move would run rampant and become a huge force in the OU metagame. So I do think it's good we that have a clause at all, but for reasons ABR outlined quite well, I’m not a fan of the current clause due to its complex nature.

In ORAS when this clause was constructed, I sang a different tune: I was relieved and thought we had accomplished a fine medium. It seemed to make sense then. Geomancy Smeargle and Iron Defense Scolipede passing were no more, while there was a perceived slight merit in protecting dry passing for pokemon such as Celebi, in a Keldeo + Pursuit driven metagame. The problem seemed to be resolved with this clause and what remained of Baton Pass' viability was extremely limited.

But once SM came around, new toys became available that could take advantage of just speed boosts. Pokemon like Magearna and Necrozma are capable of snowballing so long as they can outspeed the opposing team, due to their ability to easily boost on their own. Of course, BP was still not as effective early in SM because the primary problem with the playstyle is being able to Baton Pass into something while stomaching a hit. With stuff like Landorus-I, Genesect, and Pheromosa running around, it was more difficult to get a pass off. When threats as big as these started hitting the banlist, Baton Pass started to see an uptick in viability.

I decided to use Baton Pass myself during this most recent suspect test to get a better understanding of the issue, as I had mostly avoided using the playstyle until this point. After playing a fair amount and getting reqs rather mindlessly (albeit with a few terrible runs in the midst of it), I’m not sure whether I would classify Baton Pass with the current clause as broken or not. However, I found it to be extremely powerful in a ton of matchups and I think it’s definitely unhealthy for the metagame as it exacerbates matchup issues in the tier. I will admit you can make a matchup exacerbation case for just about any viable playstyle such as Stall, Trick Room, Rain, and so forth. However I think it’s a pretty flimsy argument outside of Stall which is its own beast (more on that another time). Trick Room and Rain are certainly more marginal playstyles than Baton Pass which has been seeing a reasonable amount of tournament success as of late.

After this further research, my opinion is the following:

Whether or not Baton Pass is broken in its current state – for which I believe there can be reasonable arguments made on either side – it is certainly unhealthy and undesirable for the OU metagame as a whole and a blanket ban on the move is simply a win-win all around.
 

I'm Rick Pickle

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#8
I'm in favour of banning baton pass. The posts before mine have been very good in highlighting how what we currently is a complex ban, which we should really try to avoid in tiering. The simplest and most secure ban possible, is to just ban the move, and that's what we should do. Furthermore, I'd like to add that Baton Pass is never used outside of the dumb teams described in NJNP's post. Even if we were in the mindset of wanting to preserve something, there's nothing left to preserve, Baton Pass is used exclusively on obnoxious scolipass teams. Baton Pass teams have a very simple, flowchart playstyle, yet they require significant amounts of specialisation to beat. They're a negative presence, and the move no longer serves any function except to enable these teams.

While it's fantastic that the council is looking at Baton Pass now, the complex bans were ones that were formed in ORAS. While some members of these teams have changed, the Scolipede + Espeon core still works in exactly the same way. We saw Baton Pass be a problem at the end of ORAS too, and it would be nonsense to keep a complex ban in one tier, but fix it in another. Please ban Baton Pass from ORAS OU too.
 
#9
Oh boy thank the lord

I'm sorry for my language in the rest of this post but I REALLY don't like BP. The most recent suspect ladder was so fucking outrageously boring it almost made me quit the game. Literally 9/10 games at the upper end of the ladder were some sort of ludicrous low-confidence gimmick (Stall/BP the most predominant). Stall in SM is another topic but the same root causes are there.

Literally the number one reason I want BP straight up gone is because it's just INSANELY not fun to play/play against/watch. There has been one single game in the last decade involving a full BP chain that I can remember being entertaining in the slightest and that was GOAO vs PDC in SPL, and if you ban BP and replay that matchup PDC seriously wins 99/100 times. The only reason BP teams exist are for gimmicky, low interaction, "cheap" wins. It's the Pheromosa problem applied to an entire team, you don't have to do any sort of novel thinking to win a BP game at all, just follow the rote script and cross your fingers.

BP isn't even that good right now, it's obviously certainly beatable, but it's almost outrageously lame that the top 10 of the ladder when I finished doing suspect reqs was like me, one other balance guy, a few stalls and then a bunch of 77 GXE BPers. I can't imagine anything Pokemon related less enjoyable than that run of laddering, I literally played mindless drones doing the exact same thing back to back to back. Even with it not being that good, if it remains unbanned for say WCOP, I will guarantee 100% that you will see at least one matchup where some low-confidence, otherwise outmatched player brings the full squad of BP goons and asks Christ himself for good matchup.

This ban isn't even necessarily for us tour guys. BP will make its rare pop-up when someone feels they can't win the game by outplaying in the major tours, some people will get a laugh and it'll be a mixed bag. It's for the people who join Smogon now, start grinding the ladder and see "whoa, all these top dudes use a strategy that I can copy easily as hell and win at preview". It's always been just niche enough that it's asking a ton for specific and weird countermeasures which certainly make your team weaker to the more general meta, so you'll rarely see the ladder pivot around such a strategy the way it would the development of anything else. This is why laddering, which should be fun for someone who genuinely and sincerely enjoys this game, is such a ridiculous chore rather than an enjoyable hobby. The interaction and dance between two players that is supposed to be there is just thrown out the window and this environment breeds low-skilled meek garbage and drives away half the crowd with a bit of nous about them.

Basically ban BP for the kids ASAP
 

GMars

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#10
The critical problem of Baton Pass is the ability to pass stats. No one would argue that, that that's the sole issue behind BP. What people would argue is that implementing a drypass solution would perpetuate complex banning, something the council would like to avoid.

I've seen arguments on preserving drypass brought up without expanding on the actual impact. I've written analyses on the complete set of OU Pokemon whose viability hinges on drypass, so I feel qualified to say that the collateral damage from a blanket Baton Pass ban is Pyukumuku and Shedinja. (While Pyukumuku's current set runs Curse and Baton Pass, it has seen tournament play with Counter over Curse, and retains viability with a drypass implementation).

These are both C or C- ranked Pokemon for viability.

If the council would like to save these two Pokemon, a teambuilder drypass clause could be implemented as such:

"Pokemon with Baton Pass cannot boost stats."

While this is less complex from a point of understanding and personally implementing the clause, it is more complex from a point of coding, as it needs to take into account all moves, secondary effects, abilities, and items. This implementation does remove all collateral damage and does put the issue of Baton Pass to rest.

Otherwise, if the council and community feels the collateral damage is low, they should have no hesitation in banning Baton Pass.

Personally, even though I stand to lose an analysis in QC that would otherwise count towards Contributor by making this argument, I feel a blanket Baton Pass ban is the most efficient and effective solution.

(Edit: Forgot to add one more bit of collateral damage. Mega Lopunny loses to ability to pivot by blanket banning Baton Pass. Mega Lopunny has 20% usage of Baton Pass in ORAS OU, while Power-Up Punch has only 7.4% usage, so drypass does see significant use. However, this is not relevant to the current SM OU metagame).
 
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#11
Is there any reason why we can't just ban stat-passing? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we're finally doing something about this, but it seems most people have been so traumatised by Baton Pass that they just want to see it gone. Hear me out at least.

The BP Clause doesn't need to be more complex, I agree. Banning stat-passing actually makes the BP Clause alot simpler. We'd no longer need to restrict the number of Baton Passers on a team, since stat-passing has always been the root problem. Banning Baton Pass + Stat-Boosting on a single Pokemon seems straight forward enough, no?

The other argument I'm seeing is that Baton Pass shouldn't receive special treatment. This has always been the case for Pokemon like Blaze Blaziken and Torrent Greninja, but for whatever reason it seems we've always tried to preserve moves and abilities. Drizzle + Swift Swim and Drought + Chlorophyll in BW come to mind, as well as that Sleep Perish Trap clause in GSC. So I don't think preserving Baton Pass goes against our tiering philosophy.

Then we've got some people saying that it isn't worth keeping dry-passing. How can they say that? Dry-passing may not be that relevant at the moment, but that doesn't mean it won't be in the future (especially with Mega Lopunny's eventual return). Who's to say that a set involving dry-passing won't be popularised in the future? And there are certainly a good amount of Pokemon (mostly lower-tiered mind you) that benefit greatly from dry-passing. I think it's pretty cool how some Psychic types can use it to escape from Pursuit trapping. Sure that situation may rarely ever come up, but that's no reason to ban the move.


I realise Baton Pass is probably going to be outright banned, but since that's something I've always opposed I had to say something.
 
#13
In regards to the topic of which generations this would apply to, I definitely favor it completely overhauling the current clause wherever it exists (currently in BW onwards). I'm not sure what is feasible considering the purview of the council, but I'd simply like to state why a cross-gen ban should be the case.

Before I continue, I do not wish to imply that Baton Pass, in its current state, breaks the respective BW and ORAS metagames. Rather, I wish to seek consistency and an overall idealized ban list. As I stated in my previous post, an overall blanket ban is much more in line with Smogon's tiering than the current clause, even if BP is not currently broken. So, if we are going to fix our SM tiering regardless, why not also fix these older generations? Additionally, people seemed to have no issue grouping these 3 gens together with the clause, so why not also group them together with a full ban?

Now before anyone mentions that drypassing is prominent in the BW or ORAS metagames, please keep in mind that this is not only untrue, but also not something worth bending over backwards for. I hope that when people are looking at Smogon's OU banlist they see "Baton Pass is banned", not "using more than 1 baton pass user is banned; passing speed + other boosts is banned".
 
#14
Just for the sake of the thread can someone provide a detailed case on why Baton Pass (move) and Baton Pass (strategy) are broken
As interim council member I'll surely be able to guide you to the answers you seek mate!

This is where discussion on the tiering status of Baton Pass will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that Baton Pass should be banned as a whole from the OU metagame or why it should remain in the tier as is, under the current clause.

The OU Council believes that Baton Pass, as a move, should be banned from the SM OU metagame. Despite having a clause implemented to hinder Baton Pass teams, there are clearly still effective teams that make use of this strategy. Baton Pass teams are one of the most controversial parts of the metagame currently and this is in large part due to the strategy behind them, passing stat boosts to threatening Pokemon that can take advantage of them without many drawbacks. Common abusers of this strategy, such as Necrozma, Magearna, and Espeon, take advantage of being passed Speed boosts from Scolipede and then set up on their own, proceeding to sweep through a significant portion of the metagame and teams that are used. Therefore, the OU council believes that these teams have no place in the SM OU metagame and we must do something to change this.

If we were to consider amending the current clause, then any prospective future clause would likely be largely arbitrary and generally a lackluster solution to the full problem at hand. Additionally, the current clause, as is, seems to be ineffective in the current metagame because people found ways to use the aforementioned Baton Pass teams in a broken fashion. Moreover, banning the move Baton Pass as a whole will be a clear-cut solution as the strategy will be eliminated from the metagame and there will be no ways around that.

This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion and then we will post an ultimate decision on the topic. Please keep all posts and discussion relevant to the current SM OU metagame.
That should answer your questions!
 

MrAldo

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#15
Just ban stat passing in general. You guys dug a hole so deep trying to preserve specific combinations of stats + passing since 6th gen for no actual reason. It is far more simple to just say "stat passing in general is banned", and still preserves the move that I certainly dont believe it is broken on its own (as in dry passing) and is the stat passing that is lame/stupid/ridiculous/brainless/skillless/insert derogatory term here.

Honestly I wouldnt miss baton pass much in general but banning the whole move seems like a decision taken out of sheer spite. I guess the move isnt that relevant on its own, but it can a good momentum tool and useful for lower tiers if needed. Besides I dont see something like sub pass as broken, and stuff like focus energy pass without the speed boost are just gimmicks waiting to be ridiculized anyways.

It is nice that this is being discussed. Pin it!
 
#16
In regards to the topic of which generations this would apply to, I definitely favor it completely overhauling the current clause wherever it exists (currently in BW onwards). I'm not sure what is feasible considering the purview of the council, but I'd simply like to state why a cross-gen ban should be the case.

Before I continue, I do not wish to imply that Baton Pass, in its current state, breaks the respective BW and ORAS metagames. Rather, I wish to seek consistency and an overall idealized ban list. As I stated in my previous post, an overall blanket ban is much more in line with Smogon's tiering than the current clause, even if BP is not currently broken. So, if we are going to fix our SM tiering regardless, why not also fix these older generations? Additionally, people seemed to have no issue grouping these 3 gens together with the clause, so why not also group them together with a full ban?

Now before anyone mentions that drypassing is prominent in the BW or ORAS metagames, please keep in mind that this is not only untrue, but also not something worth bending over backwards for. I hope that when people are looking at Smogon's OU banlist they see "Baton Pass is banned", not "using more than 1 baton pass user is banned; passing speed + other boosts is banned".
Past gen tiering has generally been in our hands for some time. I've made it known on a few occasions that I don't like this - mainly when thinking about that first DPP vote that happened a while back, under that system I'd have been qualified to vote and I don't feel like I'm anywhere near a good enough DPP player to decide those sorts of things.

If we do ban BP in SM and want to extend that to ORAS/BW, I'd be strongly for the current OU Council, or some conglomeration of current and former councils + prominent tour players (based on ST, SPL, Classic, whatever) be in charge of that vote.
 
#17
As interim council member I'll surely be able to guide you to the answers you seek mate!



That should answer your questions!
I greatly appreciate the snippy answer that in every way answers the base argument that should be present in this thread!

As it so happens that does not sufficiently present a case for why either Baton Pass (move) or Baton Pass (strategy) is broken*, so I will repeat my request


*arguably addresses the latter, albeit not in detail, but does not address the former
 
#18
I greatly appreciate the snippy answer that in every way answers the base argument that should be present in this thread!

As it so happens that does not sufficiently present a case for why either Baton Pass (move) or Baton Pass (strategy) is broken*, so I will repeat my request


*arguably addresses the latter, albeit not in detail, but does not address the former
It's a niche enough strategy with counters that are otherwise almost hilariously unviable that attempts to win solely on matchup, following an almost exactly pre-determined gameplan 99% of the time which gains wins based only on the fact that a generally meta-prepared team won't be carrying one of those aforementioned silly counters. It is a strategy that attempts to remove any degree of play from its opponent, literally doing whatever the hell you want as they struggle in vain against it.

It also doesn't have to be "broken" in my opinion. I don't know why Smogon for some reason has this unreal reliance on super rigid ideological consistency. We play an unsanctioned modified version of a game competitively for next to no reward - the entire goal of this website and our metagames is fun, we should be able to be honest with ourselves when we want to say "BP is so stupidly fucking nauseatingly boring that it should go".
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
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#19
It's a niche enough strategy with counters that are otherwise almost hilariously unviable that attempts to win solely on matchup, following an almost exactly pre-determined gameplan 99% of the time which gains wins based only on the fact that a generally meta-prepared team won't be carrying one of those aforementioned silly counters. It is a strategy that attempts to remove any degree of play from its opponent, literally doing whatever the hell you want as they struggle in vain against it.

It also doesn't have to be "broken" in my opinion. I don't know why Smogon for some reason has this unreal reliance on super rigid ideological consistency. We play an unsanctioned modified version of a game competitively for next to no reward - the entire goal of this website and our metagames is fun, we should be able to be honest with ourselves when we want to say "BP is so stupidly fucking nauseatingly boring that it should go".
I would like to mention that as far as the ideological consistency of smogon goes, BP can classify as unhealthy or uncompetitive, so it doesn't have to be broken to get the boot (much like gen 6 swagger was fucking nauseating).
 
#20
Googly pretty much said everything I had on my plate.

in addition to the answers to his questions I'd like to also know what makes a move, ability, or combo thereof "worth bending over" for.

I still stand by the idea of speedpassing being the culprit, but if you would like to make things "simple" for the sake of policy then banning statpassing altogether would achieve the same result as banning the move outright, while preserving worthwhile strategies in the process.

I don't get why banning takes priority over preservation. that mindset just seems so backward.
 

Snou

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#21

To be honest, when I heard that Baton Pass got nerfed, I thought it would have been the end of this old and cancerous "playstyle".
Sadly, I forgot that people are up to do anything in order to get easy wins, and the recent suspect, according to my thoughts, is the proof of what I said.
I don't know the exact amount of players that relied on Baton Pass in order to get reqs and vote, but they were literally too much, and I feel like it's embarassing that we didn't ban it before. I don't think that makin a "Baton Pass Clause v4" would fix the current situation about Baton Pass: people will think up other weird sets/teams in order to use it again (bpassing subs n and stuff), as happened before. I think we should just blanket ban Baton Pass, draw a line under it and move on.
Facing Baton Pass in either tournaments or ladder is painful, unhealthy, and using it will give you a good matchup against a great portion of the possible opposing teams. And I can't really blame one the ones using this strategy, since they're allowed to.
It was evil in ORAS, but with mons such as Necrozma, Magearna, Xurkitree, Celesteela and Mawile and Z Moves, it's unhealthy and uncompetitive (I think it should be banned from ORAS, too, anyway).
Banning it and do something in order to nerf stall teams before wcop is highly recommended.
 
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Punchshroom

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is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#22
So just the other day, I've said that I haven't really maintained a solid opinion about whether or not Baton Pass should be banned as a whole or whether we can single out StatPassing and implement this new clause to replace all the other existing clauses. However, this was before I realized just how many hoops we have to go through to fully implement the StatPass clause.

So StatPass clause starts out simple enough right? You prevent Speed Boost Pass, Calm Mind Pass, AgiliPass, even something as simple as Harden Pass will no longer be permitted under this new clause. But there are other means of boosting stats aside from stat-boosting moves; the Terrain Seeds can boost a stat under its respective Terrain, and any Baton Pass user can take advantage of this. Then there's the all-stat boosting attacks, Ancientpower, Silver Wind, and Ominous Wind, each of which are learned by a significant amount of Baton Pass users. There is also Justified + Baton Pass, Lightningrod + Baton Pass, Motor Drive + Baton Pass, Sap Sipper + Baton Pass, Rattled + Baton Pass, and Steadfast + Baton Pass among current possible combinations of stat-boosting abilities and Baton Pass (aside from the aforementioned Speed Boost + Baton Pass). Now you may argue at the sheer impracticality of these and whether or not these even deserve to be included in the clause, but clauses (and bans) have never and should not cut corners: if something fits the ban/clause criteria, it's getting the boot. Just look at the DrizzleSwim ban, which prevents you from using any Swift Swimmer, be it Lumineon or Luvdisc, alongside Drizzle.

Oh, and need I get into the Z-moves that boost stats alongside Baton Pass? There is already an ongoing issue regarding Z-moves that boost evasion automatically breaking evasion clause, which prevents the combination of the Z-crystal + the offending move from even being validated in teambuilder, which is a problem if the Pokemon wants to use the Z-crystal for legitimate purposes, but simply happens to be carrying a move that boosts evasion via Z-effect. And that case only involves just about a handful of moves. Now apply all of those moves that don't already boost stats, but do via Z-effect, into the StatPass clause:
Laser Focus (Attack ↑)
Leer (Attack ↑)
Odor Sleuth (Attack ↑)
Power Trick (Attack ↑)
Rototiller (Attack ↑)
Screech (Attack ↑)
Tail Whip (Attack ↑)
Taunt (Attack ↑)
Topsy-Turvy (Attack ↑)
Will-O-Wisp (Attack ↑)
Mirror Move (Attack ↑↑)
Splash (Attack ↑↑↑)
Aqua Ring (Defense ↑)
Baby-Doll Eyes (Defense ↑)
Baneful Bunker (Defense ↑)
Block (Defense ↑)
Charm (Defense ↑)
Defend Order (Defense ↑)
Fairy Lock (Defense ↑)
Feather Dance (Defense ↑)
Flower Shield (Defense ↑)
Grassy Terrain (Defense ↑)
Growl (Defense ↑)
Mat Block (Defense ↑)
Noble Roar (Defense ↑)
Pain Split (Defense ↑)
Play Nice (Defense ↑)
Poison Gas (Defense ↑)
Poison Powder (Defense ↑)
Quick Guard (Defense ↑)
Reflect (Defense ↑)
Roar (Defense ↑)
Spider Web (Defense ↑)
Spikes (Defense ↑)
Spiky Shield (Defense ↑)
Stealth Rock (Defense ↑)
Strength Sap (Defense ↑)
Tearful Look (Defense ↑)
Tickle (Defense ↑)
Torment (Defense ↑)
Toxic (Defense ↑)
Toxic Spikes (Defense ↑)
Venom Drench (Defense ↑)
Wide Guard (Defense ↑)
Confuse Ray (Special Attack ↑)
Electrify (Special Attack ↑)
Embargo (Special Attack ↑)
Fake Tears (Special Attack ↑)
Gravity (Special Attack ↑)
Instruct (Special Attack ↑)
Ion Deluge (Special Attack ↑)
Metal Sound (Special Attack ↑)
Mind Reader (Special Attack ↑)
Miracle Eye (Special Attack ↑)
Nightmare (Special Attack ↑)
Psychic Terrain (Special Attack ↑)
Reflect Type (Special Attack ↑)
Simple Beam (Special Attack ↑)
Soak (Special Attack ↑)
Sweet Kiss (Special Attack ↑)
Teeter Dance (Special Attack ↑)
Telekinesis (Special Attack ↑)
Heal Block (Special Attack ↑↑)
Psycho Shift (Special Attack ↑↑)
Confide (Special Defense ↑)
Crafty Shield (Special Defense ↑)
Eerie Impulse (Special Defense ↑)
Entrainment (Special Defense ↑)
Flatter (Special Defense ↑)
Glare (Special Defense ↑)
Ingrain (Special Defense ↑)
Light Screen (Special Defense ↑)
Magic Room (Special Defense ↑)
Magnetic Flux (Special Defense ↑)
Mean Look (Special Defense ↑)
Misty Terrain (Special Defense ↑)
Mud Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Spotlight (Special Defense ↑)
Stun Spore (Special Defense ↑)
Thunder Wave (Special Defense ↑)
Water Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Whirlwind (Special Defense ↑)
Wish (Special Defense ↑)
Wonder Room (Special Defense ↑)
Aromatic Mist (Special Defense ↑↑)
Captivate (Special Defense ↑↑)
Imprison (Special Defense ↑↑)
Magic Coat (Special Defense ↑↑)
Powder (Special Defense ↑↑)
After You (Speed ↑)
Aurora Veil (Speed ↑)
Electric Terrain (Speed ↑)
Encore (Speed ↑)
Gastro Acid (Speed ↑)
Grass Whistle (Speed ↑)
Guard Split (Speed ↑)
Guard Swap (Speed ↑)
Hail (Speed ↑)
Hypnosis (Speed ↑)
Lock-On (Speed ↑)
Lovely Kiss (Speed ↑)
Power Split (Speed ↑)
Power Swap (Speed ↑)
Quash (Speed ↑)
Rain Dance (Speed ↑)
Role Play (Speed ↑)
Safeguard (Speed ↑)
Sandstorm (Speed ↑)
Scary Face (Speed ↑)
Sing (Speed ↑)
Skill Swap (Speed ↑)
Sleep Powder (Speed ↑)
Speed Swap (Speed ↑)
Sticky Web (Speed ↑)
String Shot (Speed ↑)
Sunny Day (Speed ↑)
Supersonic (Speed ↑)
Toxic Thread (Speed ↑)
Worry Seed (Speed ↑)
Yawn (Speed ↑)
Ally Switch (Speed ↑↑)
Bestow (Speed ↑↑)
Me First (Speed ↑↑)
Recycle (Speed ↑↑)
Snatch (Speed ↑↑)
Switcheroo (Speed ↑↑)
Trick (Speed ↑↑)
Copycat (Accuracy ↑)
Defog (Accuracy ↑)
Focus Energy (Accuracy ↑)
Mimic (Accuracy ↑)
Sweet Scent (Accuracy ↑)
Trick Room (Accuracy ↑)
Look at that; would anyone have time to ever keep track of all these nuances regarding StatPass? It is with a heavy heart that I say that StatPass clause is simply too much hassle and too complex to maintain, and just banning the move Baton Pass makes it simpler for everyone. Of course, there will be those who disagree, but disagreement is par for the course for any ban, and this method is a heck of a lot smoother than this mess of an alternative.
 
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galbia

ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS ARROWHEADS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
PU Leader
#23
So just the other day, I've said that I haven't really maintained a solid opinion about whether or not Baton Pass should be banned as a whole or whether we can single out StatPassing and implement this new clause to replace all the other existing clauses. However, this was before I realized just how many hoops we have to go through to fully implement the StatPass clause.

So StatPass clause starts out simple enough right? You prevent Speed Boost Pass, Calm Mind Pass, AgiliPass, even something as simple as Harden Pass will no longer be permitted under this new clause. But there are other means of boosting stats aside from stat-boosting moves; the Terrain Seeds can boost a stat under its respective Terrain, and any Baton Pass user can take advantage of this. There is also Justified + Baton Pass, Lightningrod + Baton Pass, Motor Drive + Baton Pass, Sap Sipper + Baton Pass, Rattled + Baton Pass, and Steadfast + Baton Pass among current possible combinations of stat-boosting abilities and Baton Pass (aside from the aforementioned Speed Boost + Baton Pass). Now you may argue at the sheer impracticality of these and whether or not these even deserve to be included in the clause, but clauses (and bans) have never and should not cut corners: if something fits the ban/clause criteria, it's getting the boot. Just look at the DrizzleSwim ban, which prevents you from using any Swift Swimmer, be it Lumineon or Luvdisc, alongside Drizzle.

Oh, and need I get into the Z-moves that boost stats alongside Baton Pass? There is already an ongoing issue regarding Z-moves that boost evasion automatically breaking evasion clause, which prevents the combination of the Z-crystal + the offending move from even being validated in teambuilder, which is a problem if the Pokemon wants to use the Z-crystal for legitimate purposes, but simply happens to be carrying a move that boosts evasion via Z-effect. And that case only involves just about a handful of moves. Now apply all of those moves that don't already boost stats, but do via Z-effect, into the StatPass clause:
Laser Focus (Attack ↑)
Leer (Attack ↑)
Odor Sleuth (Attack ↑)
Power Trick (Attack ↑)
Rototiller (Attack ↑)
Screech (Attack ↑)
Tail Whip (Attack ↑)
Taunt (Attack ↑)
Topsy-Turvy (Attack ↑)
Will-O-Wisp (Attack ↑)
Mirror Move (Attack ↑↑)
Splash (Attack ↑↑↑)
Aqua Ring (Defense ↑)
Baby-Doll Eyes (Defense ↑)
Baneful Bunker (Defense ↑)
Block (Defense ↑)
Charm (Defense ↑)
Defend Order (Defense ↑)
Fairy Lock (Defense ↑)
Feather Dance (Defense ↑)
Flower Shield (Defense ↑)
Grassy Terrain (Defense ↑)
Growl (Defense ↑)
Mat Block (Defense ↑)
Noble Roar (Defense ↑)
Pain Split (Defense ↑)
Play Nice (Defense ↑)
Poison Gas (Defense ↑)
Poison Powder (Defense ↑)
Quick Guard (Defense ↑)
Reflect (Defense ↑)
Roar (Defense ↑)
Spider Web (Defense ↑)
Spikes (Defense ↑)
Spiky Shield (Defense ↑)
Stealth Rock (Defense ↑)
Strength Sap (Defense ↑)
Tearful Look (Defense ↑)
Tickle (Defense ↑)
Torment (Defense ↑)
Toxic (Defense ↑)
Toxic Spikes (Defense ↑)
Venom Drench (Defense ↑)
Wide Guard (Defense ↑)
Confuse Ray (Special Attack ↑)
Electrify (Special Attack ↑)
Embargo (Special Attack ↑)
Fake Tears (Special Attack ↑)
Gravity (Special Attack ↑)
Instruct (Special Attack ↑)
Ion Deluge (Special Attack ↑)
Metal Sound (Special Attack ↑)
Mind Reader (Special Attack ↑)
Miracle Eye (Special Attack ↑)
Nightmare (Special Attack ↑)
Psychic Terrain (Special Attack ↑)
Reflect Type (Special Attack ↑)
Simple Beam (Special Attack ↑)
Soak (Special Attack ↑)
Sweet Kiss (Special Attack ↑)
Teeter Dance (Special Attack ↑)
Telekinesis (Special Attack ↑)
Heal Block (Special Attack ↑↑)
Psycho Shift (Special Attack ↑↑)
Confide (Special Defense ↑)
Crafty Shield (Special Defense ↑)
Eerie Impulse (Special Defense ↑)
Entrainment (Special Defense ↑)
Flatter (Special Defense ↑)
Glare (Special Defense ↑)
Ingrain (Special Defense ↑)
Light Screen (Special Defense ↑)
Magic Room (Special Defense ↑)
Magnetic Flux (Special Defense ↑)
Mean Look (Special Defense ↑)
Misty Terrain (Special Defense ↑)
Mud Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Spotlight (Special Defense ↑)
Stun Spore (Special Defense ↑)
Thunder Wave (Special Defense ↑)
Water Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Whirlwind (Special Defense ↑)
Wish (Special Defense ↑)
Wonder Room (Special Defense ↑)
Aromatic Mist (Special Defense ↑↑)
Captivate (Special Defense ↑↑)
Imprison (Special Defense ↑↑)
Magic Coat (Special Defense ↑↑)
Powder (Special Defense ↑↑)
After You (Speed ↑)
Aurora Veil (Speed ↑)
Electric Terrain (Speed ↑)
Encore (Speed ↑)
Gastro Acid (Speed ↑)
Grass Whistle (Speed ↑)
Guard Split (Speed ↑)
Guard Swap (Speed ↑)
Hail (Speed ↑)
Hypnosis (Speed ↑)
Lock-On (Speed ↑)
Lovely Kiss (Speed ↑)
Power Split (Speed ↑)
Power Swap (Speed ↑)
Quash (Speed ↑)
Rain Dance (Speed ↑)
Role Play (Speed ↑)
Safeguard (Speed ↑)
Sandstorm (Speed ↑)
Scary Face (Speed ↑)
Sing (Speed ↑)
Skill Swap (Speed ↑)
Sleep Powder (Speed ↑)
Speed Swap (Speed ↑)
Sticky Web (Speed ↑)
String Shot (Speed ↑)
Sunny Day (Speed ↑)
Supersonic (Speed ↑)
Toxic Thread (Speed ↑)
Worry Seed (Speed ↑)
Yawn (Speed ↑)
Ally Switch (Speed ↑↑)
Bestow (Speed ↑↑)
Me First (Speed ↑↑)
Recycle (Speed ↑↑)
Snatch (Speed ↑↑)
Switcheroo (Speed ↑↑)
Trick (Speed ↑↑)
Copycat (Accuracy ↑)
Defog (Accuracy ↑)
Focus Energy (Accuracy ↑)
Mimic (Accuracy ↑)
Sweet Scent (Accuracy ↑)
Trick Room (Accuracy ↑)
Look at that; would anyone have time to ever keep track of all these nuances regarding StatPass? It is with a heavy heart that I say that StatPass clause is simply too much hassle and too complex to maintain, and just banning the move Baton Pass makes it simpler for everyone. Of course, there will be those who disagree, but disagreement is par for the course for any ban, and this method is a heck of a lot smoother than this mess of an alternative.
Are any of those moves actually a problem tho? A one time boost (be it +2 Speed or Attack) seems pretty manageable and a non issue to me, especially considering the user loses leftovers and the ability to sub down more than 4 times.
For the same reason any move which has a secondary effect of boosting shouldn't even be considered or begin with as well, considering only the "explicit" ones is fine.
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#24
So just the other day, I've said that I haven't really maintained a solid opinion about whether or not Baton Pass should be banned as a whole or whether we can single out StatPassing and implement this new clause to replace all the other existing clauses. However, this was before I realized just how many hoops we have to go through to fully implement the StatPass clause.

So StatPass clause starts out simple enough right? You prevent Speed Boost Pass, Calm Mind Pass, AgiliPass, even something as simple as Harden Pass will no longer be permitted under this new clause. But there are other means of boosting stats aside from stat-boosting moves; the Terrain Seeds can boost a stat under its respective Terrain, and any Baton Pass user can take advantage of this. There is also Justified + Baton Pass, Lightningrod + Baton Pass, Motor Drive + Baton Pass, Sap Sipper + Baton Pass, Rattled + Baton Pass, and Steadfast + Baton Pass among current possible combinations of stat-boosting abilities and Baton Pass (aside from the aforementioned Speed Boost + Baton Pass). Now you may argue at the sheer impracticality of these and whether or not these even deserve to be included in the clause, but clauses (and bans) have never and should not cut corners: if something fits the ban/clause criteria, it's getting the boot. Just look at the DrizzleSwim ban, which prevents you from using any Swift Swimmer, be it Lumineon or Luvdisc, alongside Drizzle.

Oh, and need I get into the Z-moves that boost stats alongside Baton Pass? There is already an ongoing issue regarding Z-moves that boost evasion automatically breaking evasion clause, which prevents the combination of the Z-crystal + the offending move from even being validated in teambuilder, which is a problem if the Pokemon wants to use the Z-crystal for legitimate purposes, but simply happens to be carrying a move that boosts evasion via Z-effect. And that case only involves just about a handful of moves. Now apply all of those moves that don't already boost stats, but do via Z-effect, into the StatPass clause:
Laser Focus (Attack ↑)
Leer (Attack ↑)
Odor Sleuth (Attack ↑)
Power Trick (Attack ↑)
Rototiller (Attack ↑)
Screech (Attack ↑)
Tail Whip (Attack ↑)
Taunt (Attack ↑)
Topsy-Turvy (Attack ↑)
Will-O-Wisp (Attack ↑)
Mirror Move (Attack ↑↑)
Splash (Attack ↑↑↑)
Aqua Ring (Defense ↑)
Baby-Doll Eyes (Defense ↑)
Baneful Bunker (Defense ↑)
Block (Defense ↑)
Charm (Defense ↑)
Defend Order (Defense ↑)
Fairy Lock (Defense ↑)
Feather Dance (Defense ↑)
Flower Shield (Defense ↑)
Grassy Terrain (Defense ↑)
Growl (Defense ↑)
Mat Block (Defense ↑)
Noble Roar (Defense ↑)
Pain Split (Defense ↑)
Play Nice (Defense ↑)
Poison Gas (Defense ↑)
Poison Powder (Defense ↑)
Quick Guard (Defense ↑)
Reflect (Defense ↑)
Roar (Defense ↑)
Spider Web (Defense ↑)
Spikes (Defense ↑)
Spiky Shield (Defense ↑)
Stealth Rock (Defense ↑)
Strength Sap (Defense ↑)
Tearful Look (Defense ↑)
Tickle (Defense ↑)
Torment (Defense ↑)
Toxic (Defense ↑)
Toxic Spikes (Defense ↑)
Venom Drench (Defense ↑)
Wide Guard (Defense ↑)
Confuse Ray (Special Attack ↑)
Electrify (Special Attack ↑)
Embargo (Special Attack ↑)
Fake Tears (Special Attack ↑)
Gravity (Special Attack ↑)
Instruct (Special Attack ↑)
Ion Deluge (Special Attack ↑)
Metal Sound (Special Attack ↑)
Mind Reader (Special Attack ↑)
Miracle Eye (Special Attack ↑)
Nightmare (Special Attack ↑)
Psychic Terrain (Special Attack ↑)
Reflect Type (Special Attack ↑)
Simple Beam (Special Attack ↑)
Soak (Special Attack ↑)
Sweet Kiss (Special Attack ↑)
Teeter Dance (Special Attack ↑)
Telekinesis (Special Attack ↑)
Heal Block (Special Attack ↑↑)
Psycho Shift (Special Attack ↑↑)
Confide (Special Defense ↑)
Crafty Shield (Special Defense ↑)
Eerie Impulse (Special Defense ↑)
Entrainment (Special Defense ↑)
Flatter (Special Defense ↑)
Glare (Special Defense ↑)
Ingrain (Special Defense ↑)
Light Screen (Special Defense ↑)
Magic Room (Special Defense ↑)
Magnetic Flux (Special Defense ↑)
Mean Look (Special Defense ↑)
Misty Terrain (Special Defense ↑)
Mud Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Spotlight (Special Defense ↑)
Stun Spore (Special Defense ↑)
Thunder Wave (Special Defense ↑)
Water Sport (Special Defense ↑)
Whirlwind (Special Defense ↑)
Wish (Special Defense ↑)
Wonder Room (Special Defense ↑)
Aromatic Mist (Special Defense ↑↑)
Captivate (Special Defense ↑↑)
Imprison (Special Defense ↑↑)
Magic Coat (Special Defense ↑↑)
Powder (Special Defense ↑↑)
After You (Speed ↑)
Aurora Veil (Speed ↑)
Electric Terrain (Speed ↑)
Encore (Speed ↑)
Gastro Acid (Speed ↑)
Grass Whistle (Speed ↑)
Guard Split (Speed ↑)
Guard Swap (Speed ↑)
Hail (Speed ↑)
Hypnosis (Speed ↑)
Lock-On (Speed ↑)
Lovely Kiss (Speed ↑)
Power Split (Speed ↑)
Power Swap (Speed ↑)
Quash (Speed ↑)
Rain Dance (Speed ↑)
Role Play (Speed ↑)
Safeguard (Speed ↑)
Sandstorm (Speed ↑)
Scary Face (Speed ↑)
Sing (Speed ↑)
Skill Swap (Speed ↑)
Sleep Powder (Speed ↑)
Speed Swap (Speed ↑)
Sticky Web (Speed ↑)
String Shot (Speed ↑)
Sunny Day (Speed ↑)
Supersonic (Speed ↑)
Toxic Thread (Speed ↑)
Worry Seed (Speed ↑)
Yawn (Speed ↑)
Ally Switch (Speed ↑↑)
Bestow (Speed ↑↑)
Me First (Speed ↑↑)
Recycle (Speed ↑↑)
Snatch (Speed ↑↑)
Switcheroo (Speed ↑↑)
Trick (Speed ↑↑)
Copycat (Accuracy ↑)
Defog (Accuracy ↑)
Focus Energy (Accuracy ↑)
Mimic (Accuracy ↑)
Sweet Scent (Accuracy ↑)
Trick Room (Accuracy ↑)
Look at that; would anyone have time to ever keep track of this? It is with a heavy heart that I say that StatPass clause is simply too much hassle and too complex to maintain, and just banning the move Baton Pass makes it simpler for everyone. Of course, there will be those who disagree, but disagreement is par for the course for any ban, and this method is a heck of a lot smoother than this mess of an alternative.
I shared this opinion yesterday but have since changed my view. I wanted to see how much work it would take behind the scenes to implement StatPass, so I pm'd Zarel:



Since full implementation of drypass as a teambuilder restriction would not be too difficult, this isn't really a valid argument anymore. There is not a reason to full ban baton pass aside from completely nuking complexity. A drypass ban is easy to implement, takes care of the baton pass problem for good, and has no collateral damage.

The clause itself is also far less complex than we have now, as it can be wholely summed up in only seven words: "Pokemon with Baton Pass cannot boost stats."
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
#25
Are any of those moves actually a problem tho? A one time boost (be it +2 Speed or Attack) seems pretty manageable and a non issue to me, especially considering the user loses leftovers and the ability to sub down more than 4 times.
For the same reason any move which has a secondary effect of boosting shouldn't even be considered or begin with as well, considering only the "explicit" ones is fine.
As I've said about clauses, it doesn't matter if they are a problem or not; if they fit the criteria, they get the boot regardless of viability / practicality. You gonna petition for Lumineon / Luvdisc's approval to be run alongside Drizzle then?

I shared this opinion yesterday but have since changed my view. I wanted to see how much work it would take behind the scenes to implement StatPass, so I pm'd Zarel:Since full implementation of drypass as a teambuilder restriction would not be too difficult, this isn't really a valid argument anymore. There is not a reason to full ban baton pass aside from completely nuking complexity. A drypass ban is easy to implement, takes care of the baton pass problem for good, and has no collateral damage.

The clause itself is also far less complex than we have now, as it can be wholely summed up in only seven words: "Pokemon with Baton Pass cannot boost stats."
See that's the problem with the teambuilder restriction itself: it now targets those stat-boosting Z-moves which I've talked about earlier, which has already led to the current issue with the Z-evasion business which I've linked in my last post, except it's gonna involve 40+ moves instead of like 7. I don't believe 'teambuilder restriction' would be the right solution here.
 
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