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Baton Pass My A$$! - (A comprehensive and in-depth guide to Baton Pass in B/W)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Hiphiphooray, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Ill take that Zapdos set as my first attempt. Thanks for the idea. Boltbeam does seem to fit my needs well. Why the 60 speed EVs tho? I will have +1 speed from Ninjask already.

    Also, I would most likely run a set on Venomoth that does not pass speed at all. It would run: Disable, Sleep Powder, and then Bug Buzz or Substitute. Bug Buzz with Tinted Lense would be enough to kill dark Pokemon late game, and Disable would be used to stop any Choice Pokemon. Sleep Powder could put an end to many attackers as well as eliminate threats such as Perish Song, Taunt, Roar, etc. Substitute could be used instead of Bug Buzz to make Disable even stronger, but then would leave my team with only Espeon and Vaporeon to attack.

    Togekiss provides immunity to Ghost and more special defense, but Zapdos is more resistant to Electric and Flying. I guess the choice depends on how well would Zapdos tank STAB choiced Ghost attacks compared to Togekiss tanking a STAB Choiced Electric or Flying Attack?
  2. feriokun

    feriokun

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    I think specially defensive Togekiss could fit really well. It's really hard to beat as is, and with a few boosts, will be really scary. The set I would run is...

    [​IMG]
    Togekiss @ Leftovers
    Nature: Calm
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EV: 252 HP, 252 Sdef, 4 Def
    -Roost
    -Air Slash
    -Aura Sphere/Substitute
    -Baton Pass

    One you get a bit of speed, you can even Flinch Hax and recover any damage with leftovers. And with Calm Mind and Acid Armor/Iron Defense, it will be EXTREMELY hard to kill. Everytime it roosts its only weak to fighting, which can help get more subs up. If you MUST run substitute, then replace Aura Sphere, and just flinch hax those pesky dark/ghost types since nothing is immune to Flying moves. No need to invest in Satk EVs due to her already high Satk.

    Yes you don't have stored power, but we're talking about someone who can check the Dark pokemon that espeon has trouble with. Stored power would be wasted if it is used on dark pokemon anyway.
  3. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    you need 60 EVs at +1 speed to outspeed Tornadus. And Zapdos should be taking hits better than Togekiss because of its typing alone. Its only weak to ice and rock, while togekiss has more weaknesses and is hit neutral by Fighting.

    The thing about Togekiss is that it can heal a bit of its HP with lefties nearly every time it attacks because of air slash's flinch ratio.

    One more thing I would like to mention is that Zapdos isn't taking electric attacks efficiently without a boost, but Togekiss doesn't take them well at all. You don't want your team to be that much more vulnerable to Tornadus and other special threats.
  4. feriokun

    feriokun

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    Yeah but Tornadus isn't that much of a threat because Espeon can destroy it with Stored Power. The thing I was looking at is to help out with Dark/Ghost types which Togekiss does amazingly well (being immune to Ghost attacks) and dark attacks won't ever 1HKO even before boosts, (save a lucky crit)
  5. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Man, I am torn between these sets. Both seem very viable. Flinch Hax would make Togekiss a very easy way to get out of many tight situations. Ghost Immunity is very useful as well. Yet Zapdos is better defensively and offers STAB Thunderbolt to deal with Tornadus and even Politoed (with Haze or Perish Song).

    Then again, I am currently using Venomoth with Sleep Powder, Disable, and Bug Buzz, which provides such great utility with Sleep Powder and Disable for those annoying Hazers and Choiced Pokemon. Bug Buzz gives a good attack as well because of its ability.




    Tornadus is obviously best dealt with by Zapdos, but Venomoth provides a better all around utility service and Togekiss is has strong offensive capabilities. Are there another other counters to my team that one of these can significantly not handle as well as the others?

    And as always, thanks for the input so far! =)
  6. feriokun

    feriokun

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    If you are worried about being more defensive (which most Dark pokes are, but nearly ALL ghosts are special) I can see why it physical defense would benefit. Togekiss won't be taking only less than 50% from thunderbolts/ice beams as her special form would (but Zapdos won't be taking Ice Beams either), But she is STILL immune to all ghost attacks. You can then go with a BOLD nature and move all Sdef EVs into DEF and the leftovers back into Sdef.

    This would counter dark Pokemon better, provide very similar coverage as Zapdos defense wise, but you trade immune to ghost for neutral vs 2x vs electric. Both tank Dark moves just as well. While bolt beam is good, some flinch hax can win you games more then coverage, especially when boosted.

    With roost you have Zapdos weak to ground and Togekiss weak to fighting, so that must also be taken into account.

    Best way to see what's best? Try them out for yourself and let us know how it goes.
  7. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Testing out Umbreon's Pokemon slot is a pretty tedious and time consuming task. The bulk of the game takes place as I fight off early counters and get boosts off slowly. Once I get a decent amount the majority of the time I can simply sweep with Espeon, and then there are times I use Vaporeon to finish Tyranitar (the most common Dark switch in to Espeon). But TBH, 90% of my games are decided in the first 20 turns. If I get +6 defense or a decent amount of special defense, the majority of players just quit. Most teams are ready to handle Baton Pass and just accept it as a loss that will never happen again in 100+ games. Even teams with Politoed running Perish Song just forfeit once I Soundproof it once or twice.

    In the end, testing the use of Zapdos vs Togekiss vs Venomoth is very hard to do because of the very few games I actually use them. So far I have been running all three teams at random and have found use for Togekiss once and Venomoth a few times. Zapdos hasn't had any testing yet. I used Togekiss once to finish a Hydregon off with Air Slash, and to kill a Tyranitar with Aura Sphere (he actually had a Chople Berry and almost killed me with Stone Edge, but luckily didn't). I had another chance to use Togekiss that same game, but could switch in safely because of Stealth Rock after tanking a Stone Edge. Venomoth on the other hand has actually been useful in the early game because of Disable and Sleep Powder. I've used it several times and it works well, but I'm not sure if it will be as useful as the others late game. Ultimately I can't tell until much more testing is done, which will require MUCH more game.


    edit: BTW with HP Ice you need 64 speed EVs. And I was running a pure specially defense Togekiss set and Zapdos set that was mentioned. (HP and SpAtk)
  8. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    With 31/30/30/31/31/31 IV Spread, you have HP Ice and don't need to invest in more speed. Also you NEED zapdos early on in the game to deal with tornadus. Otherwise one of your crucial baton passing pokemon is going to take a hit.

    I honestly haven't tested this team at all to see how well Zapdos would work in the slot, I'm just giving you examples of why it could be useful. Venomoth with Disable and Sleep Powder is a pretty fun idea. Giving you a few extra turns to set up with whatever you want.
  9. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    I agree. Rain Dance teams are pretty common right now. If none of the three work well. I might try replacing Ninjask and Umbreon with Zapdos (Running Agility) and Venomoth (Running Quiver Dance). Although the loss of speed might outweigh the benefits of having an additional "useful" Pokemon on the field.
  10. FallenFoliage

    FallenFoliage

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    These teams are why I try to make sure I can leave room for a shuffler; my personal favorite being Swampert.
    A shuffler in combination with hazards seems like it could foil the team, not too easily, but it could definitely break the momentum the team so desperately relies on.

    Being that a spinner doesn't fit too well on your team, I can't really make any suggestions for it without making major changes.
    Overall it's a well plotted team and I'm sure it could/has caused major headaches to anyone who wasn't prepared.

    Good job, and good luck!
  11. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark

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    I couldn't but Luvdisc this thread after all the work you did on it. This is a very nice team, but i have a few suggestions. Sand and, to a lesser extenct, hail seem to cause this team problems, since they cancel out your precious leftovers recovery. With Hazards up, and you using substitute most of the time, your pokes will die very quickly. For this, I recommend running Aqua Ring over Surf on Vaporeon, which is frankly useless. This will allow you to use both Bullet Punch and Substitute on Scizor. You could even run Roar over Acid Armor as well, to get rid of those annoying set-up sweepers, but then you have to rely on Scizor to do the Defense boosting work.
    Also, take Razza's suggestion of throwing out Umbreon and go with his Mew, maybe even with Amnesia, so Mr. Mime's job would be to boost SpAtk and sit there Soundproof'ing rather than having to war with eg. Tornadus.
    Hope I helped and good luck!
  12. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I really love this guide. I have been playing with a BP team for a month or so now myself, but haven't been very successful, mostly due to lack of experience.

    Now for my own suggestion:

    Smeargle @ Focus Band
    Max HP/Speed EVs
    Timid
    -Spore
    -Substitute
    -Ingrain
    -Baton Pass

    Granted, this guy is Prankster Taunt Bait, but if you get that Spore off, Ingrain > Sub > Pass to Ninjask, begin boosting with no chance of being Phazed (unless something dies, but on a Baton Team like this, I doubt you will lose anything quickly.

    Another thing I've tried, with some success, is to BP, then Pass to something WITHOUT BP, such as Sigilyph or Alakazam, and proceed to annihilate everything. LO Alakazam with a few boosts behind him and running Psyshock/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/HP Ice will pretty much destroy everything in the game, especially with the better Calm mind boosts and even Ingrain with a Sub.
  13. indian

    indian

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    Using smeargle leaves us with two pokemon who have nothing to do after four or five turns, the other being ninjask. Yes ingrain will allow us to use the team w/o mimey but mimey tanks special hits well & passes calm minds and barriers. Yes ur idea of passing to a non-bp mon is good. But then you are very weak to a dark type attaker.
  14. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Mimey isn't there to block Roar, so much as to stop Perish Song, because PS is passed by BP as far as I recall. Espeon blocks Roar perfectly well.

    And yes, you would be weak to a dark type with alakazam, but you could swap to anything really. That was just my example, as Alakazam has great coverage, LO with no recoil, immune to entry hazards, and can just destroy shit, even without the boosts.
  15. Nelson

    Nelson Young, Wild & Free

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    Probably repeating myself but you still didn't answer me. How the hell do you deal with powerful electric mons such as SpecZone or even jolt eon which only has to spam their powerful tbolt ? All your mons are 2HKO and the only one that would be able to take a hit can't even boost it-self.
  16. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    This is just my assumption, but I don't see SpecsZone leads very often if ever, so I'd assume if one did come out, you could have a few CMs built up? Then pass (in this case) to Umbreon, who is pretty damn bulky, and HP Fighting?
  17. Nelson

    Nelson Young, Wild & Free

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    Anybody would, by seeing team previeuw, lead avec his SpecZone if he have one. So yeah, he's just gonna sweap the team, even with a cm boost, it 2HKO Umbreon and hp fighting does not kill at all.
  18. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Thanks for the complements jmurdah617-rougue and ZoroDark. I have worked very hard to come up with a solid Baton Pass team in this generation and after reviewing the many comments on this thread I feel that I am very close to perfection. I am currently reviewing several different aspects to this team and will update it as soon as I come to a clear consensus!


    To answer a few questions:

    @Blankzero: I don't like smeargle because he is too weak and very predictable. Ingrain is an awesome move, but very hard to pull off in game. Getting off Ingrain and Baton Pass on Smeargle is tough to do without Spore, and Spore is just too predictable on Smeargle. I used to run a Spore, Ingrain, Shift Gear, Baton Pass set on Smeargle, but constantly lost to Trick users and faster Pokemon who could Substitute or Taunt the Spore. Smeargles access to Ingrain is awesome, but Espeon's Magic Bounce provides the same protection while also providing a Pokemon with long term use. (as Indian also mentioned, running Ninjask and Smeargle together is a bad idea since they are both useless after the first few turns.)

    @ Indian: As stated by Blankzero, Mr. Mime's use is primarily for blocking Perish Song. His ability to block Roar and Bug Buzz is just extra.

    @Zorodark: The team is weak to offensively sandstorm teams, (probably aggressive hail teams as well, but I haven't seen nearly as many) but it typically isn't too hard to beat these teams with Scizor and Vaporeon. Vaporeon's Surf serves a much greater use than most people assume. When I am stuck in a +6 defense vs +6 attack stalemate, Vaporeon is the one to end this as well as many Bulk Up Pokemon. And, when Tyranitar or Infernape tries to Fire Blast my Scizor, Vaporeon is able to kill them with Surf. Many people would argue that I could just tank the Fire Blast and Acid Armor to avoid these threats, but not killing them leaves me open to constant switch in, that ultimately lower my HP enough for them to finish me off in the end.
    My solution to Offensive Sandstorm teams is to get early sweeps with Espeon to eliminate many counters early on. The majority of Sandstorm teams are physically based and so I normally end up switching to Scizor to stop the Tyranitar lead, or directly to Mr. Mime to Soundproof the Roar. Either way, I get +6 defense with Barrier or Iron Defense and pass directly to Espeon (to avoid Roar) and finish off many threats with Stored Power, which still has a great base power even without Calm Mind's. I have found that running defense EV's and Rest+Chesto Berry on Espeon greatly helps to stop Sand Storm and even Rain teams (since Rest heals the burn from Scald, which is on every Rain Team). In the end, I agree that Aqua Ring is a great move for my team, but it causes me to rely strictly on Scizor for defense, which is a horrible idea since any mixed attacker or Pokemon running Fire Punch would destroy me before I could get to +2 defense. Not to mention V-create and Flare Blitz... Dropping Surf on the other hand causes to much of a drop in my teams offensive power, and leaves me vulnerable to many threats. Surf is used for a variety of purposes that can only really be seen though actually playing the team, such as being able to 1HKO many weak attackers that cannot kill Vaporeon easily early game.

    @Nelson-X: I have already addressed choiced attackers and how to deal with them. While I admit they do hurt this team, they are still very easy to beat. Start with Scizor and get +6 speed by spamming Protect and Substitute. Baton Pass to Mr. Mime, tank the hit and Calm Mind so you can tank a second hit (this works as long as the move isn't STAB and super effective), then Baton Pass to Umbreon or Espeon to Stored Power and finish it off. +6 speed and +1 Special attack and +1 Special defense is enough to make Stored Power very deadly... Even if you can't get off the Calm Mind because the attack is Ghost or Dark type, Umbreon is able to tank these hits very well and can still return a KO with Stored Power. HP Fighting isn't the go to move unless its a late game sweep to eliminate Dark types. And, if, by some chance, I was being threatened by STAB Choiced Dark attacks from a Dark Pokemon, I would still pass directly to Umbreon, tank several hits (since its very ineffective) and slowly kill the threat with HP fighting. This strategy has worked for me every time so far. Although I still am willing to admit that this is one weakness of the team, and is why I am currently testing with Pokemon such as Zapdos, Togekiss and Venomoth to deal with these counters in way Umbreon simply can't. Zapdos could tank the hit and get the return 1HKO, whereas Venomoth could tank the hit and use Disable or Sleep Powder to stop the attacks. There are many options and I am currently trying to find out which is the most reliable and can provide checks to the many other counters out there.
  19. Nelson

    Nelson Young, Wild & Free

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    Man, you don't see the point. Mr.Mime is 2HKO by SpecZone which means that Mr.Mime will NEVER be able to set-up a calm mind since you have to count the turn where you BP.

    Umbreon is also 2HKO, everything is 2HKO which means that nobody can set-up bar ninjask but hey stored power, even with a +6 speed boost won't kill at all.

    I have repeated this on the ladder. I was using the team and asked somebody to use a SpecZone. He literraly only had to spam tbolt to decimate all the team. This is a very serious threat which you shall take into account while thinking to a replacement to umbreon which is definitively the weakest link.
  20. lousy918

    lousy918

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    This team is certainly very well-built. I have no experience with BP teams so I can't say much, but your only offenses are:
    - Vaporeon's Surf
    - Umbreon's Dark Pulse and HP Fighting
    - Espeon's and Umbreon's Stored Power
    - Scizor's Bullet Punch

    This means Dark is a mandatory typing, as Stored Power is too strong. What do you do against Sharpedo? Shouldn't be difficult to deal with though.
  21. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Okay, I see what you mean now. I guess I have never truly encountered a Choiced Pokemon with the ability to 2HKO Mr. Mime even after a Calm Mind. (Btw, the Calm Mind boost, is possible...5% of the time =P) I guess most Magnezone's I've played were Choiced Scarfed. Anyway, after playing around on the damage calculator, i've come up with a few possible solutions.

    #1, find a Pokemon able to tank the hit and get a 1HKO. Zapdos can't do this without a Life Orb, Modest Nature and 252 SpAtk. And the recoil seems pointless. Togekiss gets 2HKO with Air Slash Flinch + Aura Sphere, but that's not too reliable.
    #2, Venomoth with Disable / Sleep Powder is able to tank the hit and force the enemy to struggle with Disable or use a shaky accuracy sleep. Disable would just force a switch and bring the threat back in a few turns and sleep is too unreliable imo.
    #3, Possibly include Gliscor in the chain, since his Ground typing would allow immunity. Although, I am more looking for a counter to all choiced specs Pokemon, and not just those running STAB Electric moves.

    I will continue to look into this and try to find a Pokemon to replace Umbreon who can deal with this. However, I might end up having to simply leave this counter unaddressed. Because, in reality, I'm not too sure if this variant is common enough to base an entire Pokemon on my team off. Sure, its a counter, but so is Moldbreaker Haxorous running Roar, which is just as unlikely.

    Thanks for pointing this out, sorry it took me so long to catch on! =/ Hopefully an easy fix is out there waiting to be found.
  22. IbanezObsession

    IbanezObsession

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    Nice work! I agree with Mike on running Roar on Vappy to stop the other chains. It would definitely work a lot better, imo.
  23. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark

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    Since I already posted a load of possible hints; here's another possible solution to the Specs pokes problem: Get yourself a poke with Amnesia, first ones to come to my mind are Mew or Gorebyss.
  24. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Gorebyss with Amnesia is still 2HKO by Choiced STAB Thunderbolt. Mew being Psychic type reallys hurts it, since it leaves my team heavily weak against the same type of attacks. Although, If I replaced Vaporeon Amnesia could possibly be included. I'm just not sure if its worth it in the end. #101subsFTW
  25. feriokun

    feriokun

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    Of course there is a fix! You'll just have to wait a bit. The fix is easy, Zapdos with Lightning Rod. Sure it's not illegal YET, but once it is, problem solved.

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