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Baton Pass My A$$! - (A comprehensive and in-depth guide to Baton Pass in B/W)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Hiphiphooray, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

    Joined:
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    When is this change taking place? How could dream world abilities be combined with a move that was only learned in a previous generation?
  2. HiImGrey

    HiImGrey

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
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    This is actually not true as Substitute does not block Toxic Spikes. I found this to be quite a problem actually, because if I don't get Espeon in as they Toxic Spike, my entire team save Ninjask and Scizor gets poisoned meaning setting up Substitutes and boosting becomes a lot more difficult. Luckily, putting in Venemoth solves this problem.

    The problem with Venemoth though, is that it can't really stop Choiced Thunderus-T. If they lead with Politoed and me with Ninjask, they can switch to Thunderus-T on the Protect then proceed to spam Thunder without me being able to pass Venemoth safely to Disable its Thunder or Sleep Powder it. For this reason, Gliscor seems to be a better option as most strong attacks other than Electric types can be dealt with by other members, but a strong Thunder seems unstoppable.
  3. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    I still don't get how tc is naive enough to believe prankster volbeat will encore a baton pass........ or sableye taunting on a mon with an offense move.
  4. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    If you have a substitute up when you Baton Pass, the receiving Pokemon is not poisoned. Toxic Spike is normally found on defensive stall teams, so it's very easy to get free boosts off while they set up toxic spikes, and then switch to Espeon and proceed to sweep with Stored Power. If they do manage to break your Substitute while they have Toxic Spikes down, just switch to Vaporeon and get a Substitute off and switch to another (Vaporeon can tank the Poison damage normally) or just use Scizor to get a Substitute up since he is immune to the Poison.

    Choiced Thunderus-T and Magnezone are definitely a problem that I am looking into. But Toxic Spikes is normally never a problem for me.


    You must be missing the part where you dry pass against prankster teams. If you are good at predicting the enemy's switches, then prankster teams are relatively easy. For example, you currently have Mr. Mime out, and predict the Sableye switch, then use Baton Pass. He switches in and then you use Baton Pass; you can then choose if you want to switch in Espeon to force him to switch Sableye out or to force him to attack. If he attacks you can Calm Mind a few times using Rest or Moonlight to stay alive. Then switch to Vaporeon or Umbreon/Venomoth/Zapdos/Togekiss to get the kill. Likewise, if he switches in Volbeat, you can counter with Espeon.

    The reason I'm saying you get Encored into Baton Pass is because, if you dry pass on the switch in then you can still switch to a Pokemon besides Espeon. At this point if he uses Encore then the Baton Pass from the last Pokemon is hit by Encore. This makes you Baton Pass around while he does whatever and then end at Espeon. Sableye taunting Vaporeon is very common, especially since if he burns/recovers/attacks, you can Baton Pass to a counter or put up a massive Substitute. Also, since Vaporeon can also run Roar or Aqua Ring, then Taunt seems like a solid attack.




    All in all, Prankster Pokemon are not as big as a problem as Choiced Thunderus-T and Magnezone are.

    Still open to suggestions.
  5. KarateF22

    KarateF22

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
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    101
    As a Baton Pass lover myself, I tried this team out for a couple hours. It is a great, solid team but the ONE real nitpick I have is that Mr. Mime should use Encore instead of Barrier. I understand your reasoning for using barrier, but I have never needed to use Mr. Mime for defense boosting. Not only this, but you can actually encore Roar (pretty hilarious) and then setup that way. I have also several times taken advantage of Calm Mind/Bulk Up/Curse users by encore locking them and then setting up my own calm mind. The rest of your setup is solid and I love playing it... its the first truly viable BP team I have seen this generation.

    One more thing, minimize the attack IVs on anything not using hidden power. This reduces self damage from confusion and damage from Foul Play.
  6. HiImGrey

    HiImGrey

    Joined:
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    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xs1nxo
  7. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Great Idea about the IV's. Ill definitely do that. I use barrier quite a lot on Mr. Mime, but I see the use in Encore as well. I use Barrier on Mr. Mime when I am already at +6 Calm Minds, or most importantly, when I am trying to deal with Dolphan or Hippowdon. If they don't Roar on my switch then I can still Barrier while blocking Roar.

    That's strange. Doesn't work that way in Pokemon Online currently. I'm guessing its a bug because Smogon does say that you are still poisoned, but that's not how it works currently.


    Test it out if you don't believe me. But I'm currently running Venomoth anyway so it doesn't matter regardless.

    Here's a log of what happened when I switched to Vaporeon with a Substitute up and Toxic Spikes already down.

    Code:
    Start of turn 2
    The foe's Scizor used Substitute!
    The foe's Scizor already has a substitute.
    
    Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes!
    Poison spikes were scattered all around the feet of JG is ME's team!
    
    Rain continues to fall!
    The foe's Scizor's Speed Boost increases its speed!
    The foe's Scizor's Speed rose!
    
    Start of turn 3
    The foe's Scizor used Substitute!
    The foe's Scizor already has a substitute.
    
    Tentacruel used Toxic Spikes!
    Poison spikes were scattered all around the feet of JG is ME's team!
    
    Rain continues to fall!
    The foe's Scizor's Speed Boost increases its speed!
    The foe's Scizor's Speed rose!
    
    Start of turn 4
    Tentacruel used Protect!
    Tentacruel protected itself!
    
    The foe's Scizor used Baton Pass!
    JG is ME called Scizor back!
    JG is ME sent out Politoed! (Vaporeon)
    
    Rain continues to fall!
  8. KarateF22

    KarateF22

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    Jan 15, 2010
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    101
    Hippowdon is pretty easy to deal with. Sub turn 1, Protect Turn 2, pass to your choice of Espeon if you really want to force him out or Mr. Mime, who should use encore. If he refuses to leave, you can eventually force him out anyways when you get to max CM by using Espeon.

    Donphan is a tad more annoying, but I have found that the best way to deal with him is to sub turn 1, protect turn two. Then pass to Mr. Mime. If he roared, encore it. If he Ice Sharded, still encore it as it does a pittance to Mr. Mime and then pass to Vaporeon and kill him with Vaporeon.
  9. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Sounds like a solid plan. Who are you currently using as your 6th Pokemon? The only Pokemon who I have found able to counter Choiced Thundurus-T and Magnezone is Venomoth.

    Venomoth (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shield Dust
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Disable
    - Quiver Dance / Substitute / Bug Buzz
    - Roost
    - Baton Pass

    Switching in against the STAB electric attack will never be a 1HKO. Shield Dust prevents paralysis from Thunder in rain. Since you are faster you can use Disable, to force them to switch or struggle. At this point you can Quiver Dance / Substitute / Roost while they switch. I am currently running Quiver Dance which allows me to setup on many Pokemon whose Fire attacks I can Disable, or monoattackers in general. Also, if someone is trying to setup Calm Mind alongside your Quiver Dance, you can Disable Calm Mind to get ahead in stats and then switch to someone to kill it. Monoattacker are also very fun to face with this set, since you can continuously, Disable, Baton Pass, Substitute, Attack, then Baton Pass back to Venomoth to start over again if needed.
  10. Yeezy D

    Yeezy D

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    Oct 13, 2012
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    73
    I have faced this exact team on PS against someone who claimed that they were testing for results to give back to you, and if they were lying, then congrats, you've made a team worth stealing!
    I have to say when I faced this, it was so fun to play against. It was hard to fight the instinct of sitting back and watch all the boosting unfurl. But nonetheless, I fought back as hard as I could and relatively easily foresaw the Ninjask being the lead, and countered it with my Mamoswine's Ice Shard on the second turn, relatively easily OHKOing it. The rest of the team was harder to counter as a misplay on my part by not bringing out Genesect as Scizor came out, allowing it to switch out and continue to wreak havoc. The battle ended on a very close 1-0 where my Mew managed to TauntBurn Umbreon to death.

    As you are probably aware, the team is brilliant all round, and I'm sure that in the hands of a seemingly good player like yourself, you wouldn't make the same greedy decisions as the few representing your team.

    What I wanted to do was list threats such as Dragon Tail or status removers like Haze or whatever, but then noticed the threat list and was then downhearted.

    So I will end this post by saying, excellent team, extremely well thought out, deserves all the attention it has been getting and can't wait to see it in action in the hands of a better player.
  11. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Thanks. =) I've actually had a couple of players message me about some testing, which has been helpful. Then again, I have also faced my own team several times, almost an exact mirror match. It was a pretty funny game to play, considering we both had the exact same goals in mind. Luckily I had a few tricks up my sleeve since I am currently using Venomoth over Umbreon. I was able to use Disable to ensure a victory. Disabling Stored Power on Espeon or Baton Pass in general is usually a surefire way to get ahead on stat boosts and win. I am also running Encore on Mr. Mime now, which has also helped against other Baton Pass teams.

    Nevertheless, I have lost to my own team once! I was up against a seemingly mirror match, when out of no where I was hit by Vaporeon Roar, which ultimately cost me the match. It's been a delight to see the team grow in popularity and evolve to fit each players individual play style.

    Although, as Baton Pass teams become more common in this generation, the more often I start to see Pokemon running Haze or Perish Song. Because of this I've definitely noticed the team becoming harder to play successfully. While it's still a very competent team, the level of difficulty to win has gone up a lot. When I first made the team, about 4/10 teams would have Roar / Whirlwind / Taunt / Perish Song and be able to "counter" me. These were the teams that I ended up farming, because they would never anticipate the Sound Proof or Magic Bounce. However, now when I play the team, 9/10 teams I face have something from my threat list in them. On top of that, the majority of these teams are now running multiple Pokemon from my threat list as well as including some of the more rare threats like Haze. And after facing the team once or twice, prediction becomes much easier. But, I guess that's the great thing about Pokemon Online: the meta game continually evolves.

    I'd love to battle you sometime if you interested in facing this team again. I'm continually making improvements to this team and can definitely use the testing. Thanks again for the complement and I'm glad you had fun playing against my team (although you shouldn't have won!).
  12. KarateF22

    KarateF22

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    The two solutions for strong electric attacks I could find are yours and run celebi over umbreon with a two attack espeon. Celebi has natural cure to shake off paralysis and like vaporeon can setup on blissey.
  13. Yeezy D

    Yeezy D

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    You should be impressed that I didn't tl;dr that response haha! Unfortunately there is the numerous amount of unpreventable threats such as held items, etc, but thats something you have to deal with. I reckon the reason this team is such a success is that most teams don't carry counters to a team like this. Although I have noted that a Skill Link Cloyster on your lead can wreck your lead, if you haven't found this out yourself.
    And about facing the team, my PS tag is Yeezy D and I'd be quite intimidated if you challenged me as I only one the previous time banking on crits and misplays. Its a bloody dangerous team.
  14. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Ran Celebi over Umbreon initially. Biggest problem this causes is that you have three Psychic types on a single team, which makes you very weak to Bug, Dark, and Ghost attacks. As of now, I think Venomoth is still the best bet. But I could try running Celebi again. The old set I used had Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice and Giga Drain. Maybe throwing Recover or Substitute in there wouldn't be a bad idea.


    TL;DR. but if you were concerned with Cloyster leads I normally just run Bullet Punch on Scizor if they become to much of a problem. and I'll keep an eye out for you on Pokemon Online. ;)
  15. KarateF22

    KarateF22

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    Actually, I cram another move onto Vaporeon's moveset to take care of recovery, Wish. My current team is as stands, it seems to work for me against a variety of threats. The only thing I really fear now is Skarmory, who is not that common. Even when they do have a Skarmory, some smart prediction can get it killed, and leading with Espeon allows me to 2HKO it with HP Fire.

    Ninjask @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass

    The Ninjask is unaltered, aside from maxxing defense over your slight speed investment, which I found pointless considering if you are even slightly uncertain just protect turn 1 and you outspeed eeeeverything. Even choice scarf gengar is outsped, the fastest thing you will realistically see.

    Espeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Stored Power
    - Signal Beam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Baton Pass

    I turn Espeon into the sweeper. You usually only need to bounce roar/whirlwind/taunt once at a time, so you can do a hit and run with Espeon early on when its still too weak to sweep.

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Grass Knot
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass

    Celebi replaces Espeon as the secondary calm mind sweeper and also still fulfills the role of being a CMer that can setup on toss/shade users with its trolltastic 101 HP substitutes. Grass knot allows Celebi to eliminate Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Donphan with ease. Celebi also sets up on Thundurus-T and Magnezone, unless they pack the rare signal beam. HP Fire simply isn't strong enough.

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 244 HP / 228 Def / 36 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Wish
    - Acid Armor
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass

    I take out Vaporeons only attack, which I rarely if ever used, in exchange for the move Wish. Wish greatly extends the life span of not only vaporeon, but every pokemon on the team... this becomes especially true if the opposing team sets up hazards. Wish is even more potent than it usually is considering that Vaporeon has more health than anything else on the team; as a matter of fact Mr. Mime, who has the least health on the team, recovers 81% of his health when passed Vaporeon's wish, making him able to become fully operational again if he can safely switch in through stealth rock. I think you should seriously consider putting Wish on your Vaporeon, it greatly extends the longevity of the team.

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Light Metal
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Iron Defense
    - Roost
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass

    Scizor is the only thing that hasn't changed at all. Its the same Scizor you use.

    Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
    Trait: Soundproof
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Encore
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass

    This Mr. Mime is similar to the one in your OP, but uses encore over barrier. However, it appears you already made a similar change to your own set.

    I hope this feedback helps.
  16. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    I like the idea of Celebi, that moveset is actually very efficient. However, I tried running your exact set and found a few problems. STAB Choiced Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse / Signal Beam, all are 2HKO on basically the entire team. With all three of your specially defensive pokemon weak to Ghost Bug and Dark, you can be swept easily. I also noticed I used Wish once in about 20 games. While this is probably because I am so used to playing without it, I found running Surf allows you to use Vaporeon to tank STAB Ghost Attacks and use Surf to kill the threat. It's worked nicely so far, although I am certain some threat still exists that isn't a 1HKO from Surf like Gengar and Alakazam are. Also, I found running Hidden Power and Stored Power on Espeon enough to sweep effectively, (if you cant get a 1HKO with either of those you won't get it with HP Fire or Signal Beam anyway) so I decided to go back and use rest + chesto for reliable recovery. As of now, I am still running full defense EVs on Espeon like you suggested though, although I might go back to a mixed spread.



    The biggest problems you face using Celebi are definitely STAB Hurricane and STAB Ghost/Dark/Bug special attacks. Perhaps running specific attacking moves on Celebi and Vaporeon would allow them to get the important 1HKO. Any ideas?
  17. EnterRAYZORS

    EnterRAYZORS

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
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    97
    Id keep umbreon over venomoth as venomoth and ninjask seem a tad overkill, in terms of speed, and ninjask IMO does a better job. But anyway you know what your doing more than me, im just going to say that this is a brilliant thread!!! Luvdisc'd.
  18. Solar Thunder

    Solar Thunder

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Pretty cool team, things i would at least try out:

    I would try Thunder on Mr Mime, i know it is weird, but a hydro pump in the rain from max sp attack Politoed on Mr Mime will hurt a lot, as well as a scald burn, because you don't have any type of attacking move against it, then you will be on serious pressure, because if you switch out he can just easilly use Perish Song and make all your chain fail, or you are going to need to stay in with the burn, making you eventually switch out. With Thunder you will be able to get a clean 2KO on the Politoed.

    I would try a Smeargle over Umbreon, because it can Ingrain, letting less pressure on Espeon against pokés like Hippowdown, because since you are specially defensive, eqs will hurt a lot, and you can't let any other Poké against it since he can just easilly roar it out, as well as he can set up Stealth Rocks.

    I would also try to put Wish on Espeon or Vaporeon, it is really healpfull on Baton Pass teams since they need to use a lot of substitutes, which will cost some HP.

    Awesome team ^^
  19. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

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    Thanks for the input guys. I'm glad u like the team. The current biggest problem this team faces is choice spec users that have powerful stab attacks. i need a specially defensive pokemon who can deal with Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Thunder, Shadow Ball and Signal Beam. That, or a way to tank the hit and return a 1HKO. Venomoth is decent with disable, but ultimately unreliable and suspect to critical hits. Any ideas?
  20. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
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    154
    From what I remember. Musharna is the only baton passer that can go specially defensive. It can only fix hurricane and thunder though...
  21. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    442
    I have an idea. Use Zapdos instead of Venomoth. This is the set:
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Thunderbolt
    - Roar
    - Baton Pass

    This solves the Tornadus and Skarmory issue to an extent. Tornadus-T is OHKOed by thunderbolt after a round of LO recoil. You will hardly ever see choice specs shadow ball/dark pulse. It can tank hurricane and signal beam. It can also tank by choice specs thunder by using roost to gain an electric resistance. You can heal up and then roar them out. You can use agility over thunderbolt in order to boost speed if ninjask in down.

    Here is another recommendation:
    Politoed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Acid Armor
    - Substitute
    - Aqua Ring
    - Baton Pass

    With Aqua ring, your baton pass team will be able to stop losing health if a substitute is broken in two or more hits. The 40 speed ivs are to outspeed Choice Scarf Latios at +3. I also had to tweak the hp evs of your pokemon so that they are exactly divisible by 16. This enables them to use substitute with no health loss over two turns. Moverover, Scizor no longer needs to use roost. The team also heals hp when up against a sandstorm/hail team.

    I also use red card on espeon. That also means that I use morning sun instead of rest+chesto berry. The reaspn behind this is that I can encore a set up move with Mr.Mime, put up a sub and then switch to Espeon to phaze them. This also helps you to beat Calm Mind Jrachi. You can boost alongside it with Encore+Calm Mind and then switch to Espeon. Red Card allows you to phaze Skarmory once if it tried to Brave Bird Espeon. By the way, have you thought about using Hidden Power Fire and Signal beam to turn espeon into a sweeper?

    Here is the importable of your team with my changes:

    Show Hide

    Scizor (Ninjask) (F) @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Baton Pass
    Umbreon (Espeon) (F) @ Red Card
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Stored Power
    - Morning Sun
    - Baton Pass
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Thunderbolt
    - Agility
    - Baton Pass
    Politoed (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Acid Armor
    - Substitute
    - Aqua Ring
    - Baton Pass
    Slowbro (Mr. Mime) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Soundproof
    EVs: 204 HP / 252 SDef / 52 Spd
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Encore
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Baton Pass
    Skarmory (Scizor) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 220 HP / 248 Def / 40 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Iron Defense
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass
  22. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    146


    very interesting. Thanks for the EV tweaks. Right now I am currently experimenting with two others, like Zapdos. Have you considered a specially defensive jolteon? Volt Absorb and resistance to Hurricane (and STAB Thunderbolt to 1HKO Tornudus) makes it every legit. It also has access to Wish to provide some sustain to the team. The problem I have with this current setup, and a problem I foresee with your Zapdos team, is that Mr. Mime is the only specially boosting Pokemon. An alternative solution I am currently experimenting with is using Emogla. With access to Charge, Thunderbolt, Roost, Encore, Substitute, there seems to be a viable set somewhere in there!

    I'll test your team before I make assumptions, but without Substitute I feel Zapdos is weak to critical hits. Likewise, using Roar to phase doesn't really solve the problem. If I Roar, then Baton Pass to Mr. Mime, and they switch the Pokemon back in, then I am force to switch back to Zapdos, heal up, and Roar again. This would continue and I wouldn't be able to do much and likely die to a critical hit.
  23. Smilodon

    Smilodon

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    75
    Hello,

    Your team is really interesting, and well explained.
    I love using what I would call defensive baton pass (that means no smash pass), but I don't appreciate having only one reliable sweeper.
    I think it's really important to hva a few attacks somewhere, because espeon is quite frail, and at the beginning i can't come on anything to sweep. So I think having scald on Vaporeon (grabbing a burn is amazing to set-up easily) and thunder on M.mime. I use thunderbolt on my M.mime, but thunder seems better, as m.mime is mostly used against rain teams).

    I see a few weakness on your team, tell me how you face them please. Sorry if I made mistakes analysing your weaknesses.

    First of all, some rarely used dark pokemon seems to be a pain. Sash Zoroark lead (and often disguised) or Weavile, who can both learn taunt, are hard to face for Ninjask and espeon won't like switching in, even with a speed boost. Hydregon with taunt or choice spec can be a pain too.

    I also think Volcarona lead with Giga drain can be hurt only by toxik, and it might be even worse if it is the chesto rest or substitute (I still see them sometimes).

    Maybe the worse threat if Ninjask have to go out quickly (maybe fearing a roar from ninetailes) is nasty plot Shiftry under the sun, can oko your whole team with his stabs and hp fire. Happily, very few people use it.

    Another one could be Gyarados, because of it versatility. If you mispredict the set, then it's game over. Dragon dance, substitute, dragon tail and especially roar and taunt are useful tools that can ruin your sweep.

    Good luck for trying to seek the perfect baton pass team.
  24. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    442
    You just gave me a very good idea. Use Charge instead of Roar on Zapdos. By the way, the red card on Espeon can help you out of many tight situations: against those pokemon who use calm mind(Jirachi is the most problematic).

    Here is a replay showing aqua ring's usefulness: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou4247778
    LOL! The guy could have lead with his cloyster.
  25. Hiphiphooray

    Hiphiphooray

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
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    Encore on Mr. Mime is much better than any attack imo. I find that it is the most reliable way to deal with Pokemon who attempt to setup. Scald or Surf on Vaporeon is also what I currently use. Zoroark normally isn't that big of a threat, since you can normally tank the hits decently. Always protect first turn to if the enemy team has Zoroark, since choice scarf could outspeed you and OHKO. Then get your speed and switch in to Vaporeon to tank the common flamethrower, and then kill it with Surf. If it is Sashed you can most likely tank the attacks easily enough to setup with Mr. Mime. Make it use a move other than Dark Pulse, then Encore lock it and setup. If they Taunt, you get a free Substitute on Ninjask, so I don't see the problem. That gives an easy switch into Vaporeon or Espeon. Volcarona isn't that big of a threat to me either, since Mr. Mime is immune to Bug Buzz and can Encore Quiver Dance or Bug Buzz and setup, then kill with Espeon behind a Substitute. Having Giga Drain doesn't change much, since you shouldn't rely on Vaporeon to be killing it, since Quiver Dance sets can probably tank surfs easily.

    Vs Ninetails you can often substitute the first turn and then protect twice to scout for Roar or Nasty Plot. From there you can switch to Mr. Mime and Encore either, or simply start boosting. Fireblast has shaky accuracy so you can often spam Substitute until they miss, or switch into Vaporeon and tank a hit easily. I've never encountered Shiftry, as far as I'm concerned its like trying to build a team around countering Mold Breaker Roar Haxorus, which is pointless.

    Gyarados is definitely a tricky pokemon because of its set diversity. To me, prediction on these sets is what makes a good player. Look at the team composition. If its a defensive team that already put down stealth rock and spikes, then its probably a Roar + Rest combo. If its an aggressive team, then its probably a Dragon Dance version. If I am unsure I swap to Mr. Mime and Encore the Roar / DD. Gyarados with Taunt is annoying, but Vaporeon can kill it slowly. I've beaten several DD Gyarados by simply switch into Vaporeon on the Waterfall. Then Acid Armor before the Taunt. They often use that time to setup, at which point deal damage with Surf. You can continue to Acid Armor, or Baton Pass to Ninjask to immune the Earthquake, then Substitute until he Taunts. Then you can Immune the Waterfall with Vaporeon and Acid Armor again, or just kill it with Espeon if you fear another Taunt.


    Hope that helps a bit with your matchups. From what I am seeing, you need to adapt to using Encore on Mr. Mime, because it offers a great way to beat many Pokemon. This is a change I have loved so far. And I am still testing to find out the last pokemon on the team.


    Currently I am using Emogla with Charge, Substitute, and Encore. With Motor Drive, Emogla can be a great way to gain speed boosts. You can easily force electric attacks by using Vaporeon. Then Encore them and Substitute + Charge to boost up. Roost could replace Encore and you could use Zapdos, but then you miss out on the immunity to electric attacks and ability to gain speed / encore moves.

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