5th Gen Battle has started! Chou Toshio v. panamaxis

Discussion in 'Warstory Archive' started by Chou Toshio, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

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    Your also forgetting that those warstories comments are aboslutley awful. Now i'm not saying that this one has the best commentary, but compared to what is usually posted, it's great.
  2. Venser

    Venser

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    Not to be repetitive, but this. I enjoyed it, I just think people are being hypocritical. Also the comments in the "i don't know what's happening" just irks me a bit. Sorry if it came off as heavy-handed.
  3. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Ok, I feel obliged to answer to some of the negative feedback because I think it requires context. I commented on context the beginning of the thread, but probably could have gone into greater depth.

    First of all, in regards to the "misplays," I would like you all to remember that this warstory occurred near the very beginning of an entire generation of battle. I had played for several weeks on PO server before Smogon server opened, but that was a different metagame with different players that, let's face it-- still wasn't completely matured. This was a battle that happened on my second day of laddering-- probably the second day Smogon server was even put together.

    Really, do you think the plays will be perfect when the players are still that inexperienced in a new meta?

    I had never fought a Xatu before! Frankly, I was used to Breloom scoring huge hits even on resisted enemies from behind a substitute.

    I had never fought panamaxis 5th Gen, and I had never fought a bulky Mence with Dragon Tail, and I had not gotten used to abusing team preview yet-- neither of us had.

    What we gave you in this battle, were our real thought at the time-- with the excitement and intrigue we both played with, using the skills we had available to us at the time.

    Would it really more interesting if I posted: "Oh yeah, man I can't believe I did [this] back then when I would have done [that] now." No, it's far more interesting about what the players were thinking at the moment.

    Also, while I do think it's important for warstory tellers to be humble, I can go out and say it: The reason why the names above attract people to the warstory is because they know they can expect a certain level of skill. I will be the first to admit I'm not in panamaxis' league, but I know I'm still one of the stronger players (out of 6000 whatever), and am playing much better now. As "green" as this warstory is, both teams featured are still extremely successful (especially panamaxis' obviously) and interestingly enough-- despite the maturity of the metagame today, remain almost completely the same.

    I'm still using the exact same members with pretty much the same EV spreads-- just with some different moves that I will not indulge in this public setting for now, but they (combined with improved metagame knowledge since this battle) have made the difference. I will say that my team members remaining unchanged is a testament to my initial team building.

    I'm not really trying to defend the story-- you are free to think as you will. The above is just anecdotal to better explain the context of the warstory.




    As far as percentages and sprites turn by turn go, I frankly don't give a flying fuck. This and the above are 2 different issues. Writing a warstory takes a lot of time and energy-- I always laugh at people who say "it was hard to follow," without having ever written one themselves.


    This is a pokemon site where I volunteer to hang out, and yet I know a warstory expects a certain degree of content and writing-- so I dedicate to the content and writing. Do cute little pictures really add content? No, they don't. Do turn percentages add much? Probably, but it takes a fuck more load of work to do them (and sprites) that I am not about to give for cursory substance.

    From my stand point, these are just fades started over the years by n00bs who needed to be flashy to obscure a lack of real content. Or, when done by really good writers were just a nice plus-- the real content, the real warstory, is in the content and warstory.

    Traditional warstories from 3rd gen didn't even have turn-by-turn play-by-play, and the players of that gen see 4th/5th warstories as obnoxious walls of log instead of focusing on the point of the overall battle. I started writing in the beginning of 4th Gen DP, where the above was the standard format-- and I still believe it to be the ideal format, for both the readers, and the hard working writers who volunteer to entertain on a pokemon site.


    If you are going to complain about little pictures and %s I suggest you go write your own (good) warstory first with pictures and %s-- then you will understand how much work goes into it, and how much more work it takes to add them.

    To be fair, yes I am swinging around my weight, history, and name in order to format things the way I want and get away with it. Is that fair to all the new writers? no. But then, half the time, I think all the crap that many new writers get about trivial format BS is also unfair. You all should be more greatful for the time and effort that goes into the writing.

    It's this kind of pissant attitude that made warstories all but disappear from Stark Mountain near the end of 4th Gen.
  4. MajorGambit

    MajorGambit

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    So basically your point is that yout warstory is good cause none of the critics came and made a better one?

    Really?
  5. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    How do percentages make a difference? How hard is it to keep what everything is at in the back of your head? Some of you make it out to be like he didn't include any damage percentages. Battle of the Week logs don't show what the health of every Pokemon is after every turn and if you are watching a game you aren't told what anything's health is until it's shown.

    It was a nice read. Good job as usual Chou.
  6. Alan

    Alan

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    loling at the scrubs who are bitching. pretty good warstory (dorry is kind of cliche) i enjoyed it though.
  7. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    Are you going to completely avoid that little point that Chou never specifically said that the warstory was good or better than the other ones? Really?
  8. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Oh, and also getting me frustrated, pushing me into a corner-- get me in the mindset of "beat stall," to the point where I'm so focused on breaking stall that I forget about the threat of a dory sweep, and open said dory sweep-- that is real strategy, and a reality of this game. I think that is much better attributed to panamaxis' depth as a player than to my idiocy.

    It is not easy to pull such a massive sweep off. I actually think that was exceptional.

    Both panamaxis and I even posted because, in context, we believed this was a stand out battle with a lot of content.

    edit: No, the defense is: "Stop being spoiled brats." :P Not just to mine, but to warstories in general.
  9. deluge

    deluge

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    Meh, not interested in warstory-ology.
    My only concern is, "Was it entertaining"?
    And it was, IMO.

    Sweep - bad war story, mistake - bad warstory, hax bad war story? c'mon!
    I'd guess people with those opinions are not interested in REAL matches which always have those things.
  10. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

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    You did read that this battle was done during pretty much the very start of the Smogon server? Chou says he had never faced Xatu before, so he couldn't have known what damage was going to be done or what to expect from it at the time. Facing someone you know is quite good for the first time can easily make you nervous, thus making you forget obvious things and making mistakes that you wouldn't if you were much more calm. And where in the entire thread did Chou ever say his warstory was obviously better then any others? Lastly, he didn't add precents and pictures because thats how he write's his warstory's. No where in the rules for a warstory does it say you need precentages and pictures.
  11. RaRaRabbit

    RaRaRabbit

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    Yikes. I have nothing against Chou or Pana. I don't want to be hated for my opinion. I mean, I don't want to sound repetitive... but I think I should reiterate myself and the majority of the "haters" once more...

    I enjoyed the battle. It was a good read. I read it and was satisfied. There were flaws, and all war stories have them. What bugs me, is the double standards that people (NOTE, I am talking about the PEOPLE, not the players) are showing here, destroying OTHER various war stories for the exact things said in your war story.

    I do not hate the war story or the poster. I am not aiming to destroy the personal reputation or the feelings of the OP. I am just dumb founded how someone can say in one war story "I didn't like your general lack of knowledge and how you misplayed here and you wasted 5 turns" and give a player a 4, and yet they gave you an 8+. Again, not aiming my hate at you. Just saying that people are being hypocritical, and you know what, I like war stories a whole freaking lot. I do not want to make people quit posting them. Just feel that we should be fair when assessing war stories for EVERYONE.

    I understand, war stories can be a long and tedius time consuming process. And for that, I am grateful you took the time and energy to post it.


    Again, sorry for upsetting the majority of smogon for my opinion. I am not trying to change everyone elses opinion, I am just making a statement on the FAIRNESS that we should probably give to everyone and all war stories. That said, I LOVE war stories, and no matter how bad they are, I have never passed up an opportunity to read one. This one is by no means bad.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I do want to change everyone else, and that is why I completely agree with the above.

    It is hypocritical-- it's absurd. Warstories should be fun for everyone, the readers and writers.

    Is it fun to go in and put pixels and percents after every turn? Hell no!

    Should new writers be criticized for not including them? Hell no!

    The only things that should be up for criticism are the body of content, and as for format, the presentation of the text itself-- I don't want to read in glaring red and purple, but that's a mere practical concern.

    format "flare" should not be a requirement. Writers who enjoy it-- good for them, but we all should appreciate that as added "plus" not as standard.

    I am really glad to see people writing again thanks to 5th Gen, and having a fantastic new user base of players looking to stand out. All that is great-- writing a warstory is what gave me my "first step into the community" too! Of course with many people writing, there will be great warstories, and there will be bad ones. That is a reality. What isn't cool, what is a very mean reality, is that warstories tend to draw out so much negative feedback, that they become way too much work for no fun at all for the writers. Hence warstories disappear completely (ala 4th gen).

    I don't want to see that happen again. This is why I want to implore the reading-base to think about how they view warstories.
  13. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
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    I don't understand all the hate either. It was a good read, saw good moves and panamaxis executing his strategy very well. It was nice to see certain new sets/pokemon.

    Bottom line, it was enjoyable and that's what counts in a warstory.
  14. RaRaRabbit

    RaRaRabbit

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    I am glad we see eye to eye. I was afraid I terribly offended you, when it was not my intention at all. No hard feelings I hope.

    Overall, I am VERY optimistic about war stories, and I constantly give (what I would like to think) very good feed back to people in an attempt to see more war stories coming. I may sound a little harsh at times but I am an art teacher in a highschool/college setting and critiquing is my job. I only am harsh in an attempt to give good feed back and suggest ways to improve. Optimism is important, and so is fairness.

    What Chou just said is dead on the honest truth of how we should react to war stories. I know a lot of crap has been spawning in this section that can barely be good war stories, but we need to HELP these players, not chase them away with pitch forks.
  15. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Thanks for the above post Chou, I really don't want to be demonised as a scrub who hates your warstory having posted some negative comments about it. Reading some of my initial comments back, I do seem pretty heavyhanded in criticising it, for which I apologise. I was doing so pretty much purely to make the point made above by Rararabbit; namely that some people seem to criticise and praise unfairly across warstories for such errors as I pointed out. I'm very glad you too pointed this out.

    I too did enjoy your warstory, which is undoubtedly one of the better ones of 5th Gen. Regarding my comments on percentages and sprites, I fully understand how hard it is to put them all in correctly (having written a warstory myself) and as such why you don't want to put them in. Personally I like the clarity of reading and aesthetics it adds, though that may be slightly OCD, and since I'm used to seeing late Gen 4 warstories like you say. I certainly don't suggest that it is essential you add them or anything, however.

    In terms of the battle, it certainly wasn't bad at all, especially since it was high level (something sparse in the warstories currently). I simply felt that it wasn't a truly astounding battle like some i have read, although it certainly is a very good indication of the meta as well as a showcase of some interesting sets. Perhaps I've been spoiled with the rare ones in late D/P which people posted only after having an incredible battle, but that was how it felt to me anyway.

    In any case, with all this out of the way I feel compelled to give it an honest rate now. One of the best things was undoubtedly your and pana's thought processes, which both individually were excellent and together even better. In a few places I thought it may have elaborated upon a little better, but it was certainly above average all the way through. After reading your post a little way above about the context of the battle, perhaps consider including some of it into the OP (particularly how you expected Xatu to be hit hard by Breloom, and not being used to preview). Seeing pana's defensive Mence was pretty awesome as well. My main issues were the few misplays and slightly anticlimatic ending, but nonetheless a good warstory. 7/10
  16. MajorGambit

    MajorGambit

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    ^ This
  17. Azul

    Azul

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    I'm sure it's been somewhat mentioned, but I feel like people are only liking this warstory because it was made by a badged member. I'm sorry, but I didn't feel like there's anything special with the battle. It has quite a few misplays, mispredictions, and your common mistakes in your average warstories and yet, people are giving it Luvdiscs, claiming it's the best, and rating it above 9. The battle wasn't remarkable either. Just my 2 cents.

    With that aside, the warstory itself was decent. I enjoyed it and liked it. 7/10
  18. RaRaRabbit

    RaRaRabbit

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    Read all the posts. Maybe not as direct of a reason as "only because of a badged member" has been stated, but a few members feel the same way about the war story.
  19. Azul

    Azul

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    I've read the whole warstory. However, if you mean read all the comments, I'm sorry but I'm too lazy to read everything. I did skim through though and I've seen a couple that felt the same way as me. I just wanted to put my input as well.
    P.S. Forgot to mention, if it were someone like me who wrote this warstory, I bet you people would be like: "Lol, this sucks, too much misplays and hax, try again next time; 3/10"

    I'll stop ranting now, have a good night everyone! :p

    P.S.S. Suck ups, gonna suck up
  20. Xav

    Xav

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    This was an excellent battle, with good predictions on both sides and few misplays. Dual commentary had insight into what both of you were thinking and the formations of your plans throughout the battle. Only slight let down was the lack of precentages at the end of each turn, but it was still easy to follow.
  21. Rolf

    Rolf

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    An entertaining battle, great setup by pana! I was running a sand semi-stall around this time also, and I can attest to how much it ran through (and still runs through!) a bunch of stuff. 9/10

    As for all the later storm -
    Show Hide
    case study 1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83111

    He had sprites and percentages. That did not make it a good warstory at all.

    For the record, the people that are complaining about "no colors no percentages no story" are NOT the long-time Smogon members, they are the flood of what I call the "uncharteds" that have come in the wake of gen 5. It's not fair to generalize the older Smogon members and the badged members into this group when really they aren't the ones wanting the pictures and all - if anything they're the ones telling people to try again, look for better battles, and reference their work to the Warstory Archive.

    C-i-p: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162310&postcount=10
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162272&postcount=6

    If I remember right, a couple months ago a new poster in stark made a warstory that actually was rated quite high! It's possible, it just takes effort!
  22. The Pokemon Pimp

    The Pokemon Pimp

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    Thank you, we finally get a good Gen 5 warstory- although I appreciate and avidly read all of them.

    Haters gonna hate dude, but this made my night (as sad as that is). Commentary is flawless and obviously both you and pana show insight. Formatting is fine (it doesn't take away from the battle, which is the goal) and the battle was great too.

    Thanks for the read and I can say with sincerity that I can't wait for your next one. 9.5/10
  23. Alex Practice

    Alex Practice

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    Well written, both are clearly good players which makes it interesting to read the comments and thought processes, for most of the match it was a good read, but the sweep at the end kinda soured it. It would have been awesome if the battle had lasted longer and not resulted in a Dory sweep. A lot of people have complaints about percentages and stuff which doesn't bother me much, but I get the feeling that if the players had been unknowns, this warstory would have been bashed way worse for the lack of formatting and the fact that it ended in a sweep. Could just be me though. Either way, enjoyed it. 8/10
  24. RaRaRabbit

    RaRaRabbit

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    I admit to be one of these "uncharteds" although I had been lurking for... well... near 2 years before that. But your point still stands strong.

    But again, I don't think it was the formatting issue that irked most of the "haters," as it was more the hypocrisy that came with the ratings on OTHER aspects of the war story, and the format was just another detail added to the flame. Your point is valid and strong though overall.

    This link made me laugh.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162310&postcount=10
    As if he needs bright colors and sparkly pictures to keep his ADD in check.
  25. FarmerWithShotgun

    FarmerWithShotgun

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    damn man i remember when people used to just post logs in advance now they want john madden level commentary shit LOL

    if you can't keep track of a warstory how do you expect to keep track of your own battles? -__-

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