Battle Spot Community Create-A-Team: Triples [TEAM COMPLETE, IN TESTING STAGE]

[Age of Kings]

Hi everyone, I figured that since we’ve done a great job theorymoning together in the tournament threads, we should do it for the regular ladder. Since it’s not a tournament, we should all collaborate together on a team to tackle on the Japanese.

The purpose of this thread is for the Smogon Battle Spot community to collaborate on creating a team together. The end result will be to actually ladder with this team, in-game (not on the simulator), and try to get as high as we can in rankings. This isn’t theorymoning for the hell of it, the goal is the real deal.

Even if we do miserably, it will be a learning experience so everyone gets a taste of triples. If we actually get as far as the laddering stages, this thread will be used as a progress report on the state of triples and how our team stacks up.

I have chosen triples for several reasons. The first is that triples barely receives any attention and few of us have experience with it. The second is a few of you are bummed out that Pikachu Tournamentchu is Japan-only so we can put some of that triples spirit to good use. The third is that triples was just released on Showdown and we want to encourage people to play in-game. Please try to avoid the simulator, even to test. It’s a faulty testing environment since it does not accurately reflect what you will actually see on the in-game ladder.

To encourage people to not just theorymon and actually play on the ladder, I will help get any Pokemon you need for your team. (You’re on your own for EVing and leveling unless someone else wants to volunteer. I don’t have Powersaves for cloning.) The goal is to get people to play and the acquisition process should not be a barrier. Don’t be afraid to recommend legendaries or tutor moves, let your imagination run wild!

Triples resources:

Bulbapedia is by far the best resource available for triples mechanics. Smogon’s movedex is primarily concerned with singles and to a lesser extent doubles and Serebii doesn’t care about competitive play. Bulbapedia’s movedex is updated for gen 6 and fairly detailed when it comes to triples-specific mechanics and move targets.

There are no triples analyses or anything of that sort. There’s a thread here in this forum concerning triples but we of Battle Spot have to be the ones to forge new ground.

Guidance/how this will work:

Be mindful of Battle Spot’s banlist and item clause when making your selections. Lastly, remember that in triples, position matters. The only way to change position is by switching or using Ally Switch (which has a really poor distribution amongst mostly fragile mons) so choose wisely. I believe this effort will be more successful than in other tiers because we’re playing an entirely new tier with plenty of unexplored possibilities and we don’t know what is good or bad. As such, I will be adopting the “throw spaghetti on the wall” approach and running a far less structured discussion than in other tiers. We are not doing steps or phases in favor of a more organic approach to teambuilding. We can discuss team concepts and other potential teammates at any time, and depending on participation numbers, we will be deciding on team members through consensus rather than straight up voting. I know I am taking a risk with this but I feel this is the best way to go about it. No deadlines unless people are really indecisive – I know the forum regs at least check the forum every day so nothing gets missed.

Since most of us are venturing into the unknown, speak up if you don’t like the selections made. We will try to come to a consensus and once laddering comes around, feel free to make changes and come back here and tell us about them. No suggestion is stupid if you can back it up with a well supported argument, but be prepared to defend your position. The point is to get better. Let’s explore triples together!

----

The team so far:

Role: lead, middle position

Hitmontop @ Eject Button
Intimidate
Careful
252 HP / 180 SpD / 76 Speed

Close Combat
Fake Out
Wide Guard
Feint

- Standard triples moveset.
- Fake Out disrupts enemy lead so we can get our stuff up.
- Wide Guard to protect against prevalent spread attacks.
- Feint pops Protects and enemy Wide/Quick Guard so we can use our own spread moves and leave the enemy vulnerable.
- Spread focused on special defense due to lack of justification for Adamant or Impish. 76 Speed to outrun 4 Speed Blastoise to Fake Out, outrun slowest Heatran, and avoid base 70 speed creep.

Role: bulky attacker

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Flash Fire
Modest
180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spd

Heat Wave
Earth Power
Ancient Power
Protect

- Heat Wave is primary STAB, a good spread move that hits many Pokemon in the metagame for SE.
- Earth Power provides coverage against other Heatran and Fire types.
- Ancientpower chosen over Flash Cannon because Flash Cannon's main target is Sylveon (and Fairies) and the team needs a Talonflame and Charizard-Y check more. Flash Cannon covers shakier targets vs Ancientpower shoring up positive ones.
- 76 Speed outruns min speed Rotom-W and Cress, as well as beating speed creep from other base ~70s and Heatran.

Role: THE MEGA

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Chlorophyll -> Thick Fat
Modest
252 HP / 68 Def / 180 Sp. Atk / 4 SpD / 4 Speed

Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Sleep Powder
Protect

- Set is standard Mega Venusaur with STAB covering everything it needs to check. Protect chosen to stay on the field longer.
- For Sylv, Blastoise, rain check, and general defense with Sleep Powder as disruption.
- 252 HP for bulk, as Venusaur is designed to check Sylv and Blastoise.
- 68 Def prevents 2HKO by Kanga and OHKO from Sharp Beak Talonflame.
- 4 Speed for speed creep, 4 SpD for spread efficiency sake (the 4 EVs don't really work elsewhere).

Role: Offensive utility

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Prankster
Timid
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

Thunderbolt
HP Ice
Taunt
Thunder Wave

- Spread is not lazy, Timid Thundurus outspeeds Adamant Talonflame by a point and therefore allows us to check every other support Pokemon in the tier.
- Priority Taunt is our main check against TR / Perish Song / Wide Guard etc.
- Thunder Wave to cripple things for speed control.
- Thunderbolt OHKOs Blastoise, HP Ice nearly OHKOs Landorus-T and Garchomp. Can be solid OHKOs with LO.

Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
Pressure
Bold
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA

Tailwind
Scald
Icy Wind
Snarl

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Intimidate
Adamant
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP

Earthquake
Rock Slide
U-Turn
Superpower

PS Text Export

Guile (Hitmontop) @ Eject Button
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 180 SpD / 76 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Feint

Mrgrgr (Heatran) (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Protect

Soar Moar (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 180 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect

Attila the Thun (Thundurus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Tailwind
- Scald
- Icy Wind
- Snarl

Land O'Lakes (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower

EnGarde has offered to graciously provide team members to anyone in need, provided you participate in discussion.

 

[EnGarde]

Looking at your above sets, protect (amoonguss) / detect (hitmontop) is pretty mandatory. Protect is a really powerful move in doubles (it greatly discourages double targeting, as it allows teammates a free turn to attack), and I can only imagine it more powerful in triples.

And to speak to hitmontop's tankyness, I used one in the battle of legends (nerfed, because I forgot intimidate) with a careful max HP / max Sp.Def spread, and it worked really really well. Hitmontop gets both wide and quick guard, so we should think carefully about which we want to give him. :)

As for amoonguss, I've used this guy a lot in doubles. It can be useful if played correctly. I'd recommend a physcially defensive spread with rocky helmet, pulling physical attacks (and mega kangaskhan) into taking residual damage. We also need to balance longevity with straight up power. If we want to play more defensively (and to allow for a switch out), we can give amoonguss regenerator to heal up. Or, we can play more aggressively, and give it effect spore to punish opponents into potentially getting statused as well as residual damage with our redirects (this can backfire if a faster opponent attacks amoonguss and ends up paralyzed/poisoned on the turn we used spore).

(EDIT: Age of Kings pretty much already said all of the stuff in the paragraph above. Gotta read a bit more, yo!)

I hope some absolute theory-monning is allowed, as I'm not super well versed in triples. However, borrowing from my research from the doubles side, I know 2 strong cores to build teams around are dragon / fairy / steel and water / fire / grass.

I have more to say about dragon / fairy / steel core (since I really like that one), so I'll talk about that. To make sure we're on the same page, I'll link you to the original article I read on this (which is dated and intended for a VGC audience), but I think it's a pretty solid and well-accepted core on the doubles side. Since we're not limited to Kalos born/Kalos dex, we can consider stronger options: pixilate hyper voice (mega gardevoir or sylveon), and togekiss (more specially oriented support that can fulfill a similar role to amoonguss with follow me and twave).

The first thing to notice is that these pokemon have really good type synergy. Considering a few options, here are the weakness/resistance charts for a couple of solid options:

Warning! Lots of images showing sample core synergies!

Hide

Please note I only checked a handful of pokemon (mega gardevoir, sylveon, togekiss, salamence, hydreigon, and aegislash). It is definitely worth considering garchomp, heatran, lati@s, mega mawile, klefki, and others.

Now, let me talk about each potential teammate in more depth:

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Telepathy > Pixilate
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic / Shadow Ball
- Ally Switch / Shadow Ball
- Protect

Gardevoir strikes all the opponent's pokemon with a very strong pixilate hyper voice. Psychic as a reliable 2nd STAB (or shadow ball for coverage), and ally switch because gardevoir is one of the few pokemon to get it.

I chose telepathy over the more common trace because generally the only move you want to trace (that I can think of right now) is intimidate, but there are a lot of moves you DON'T want to trace (like sand stream), and since we're only likely to have that copied ability for 1 turn, it'd be safer and more consistent to play with telepathy instead (we could switch in on our own spread moves, too).

Unfortunately, gardevoir is very physically weak in a metagame filled with (mega kangaskhan) physical attackers, and is only neutral to sucker punch, which does massive damage:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 103-123 (71.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 122-144 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Another disadvantage is that gardevoir would take up our mega slot, and in a metagame where mega kangaskhan and mega mawile are strong options, we might not want to give that up.

Thus, let's consider the next pixilate option:

Sylveon @ Sitrus Berry Life Orb / Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Pixilate
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power (??? Fire?) / Shadow Ball
- Shadow Ball / Heal Bell
- Protect / Moonblast

Less powerful, but doesn't take up a mega slot. Also physically weak, but at least it resists sucker punch. I think it's worth considering heal bell (even if cleric / recovery moves are usually less than useful in doubles; assumed true for triples) because burns are very prevalent in the doubles metagame (assumed true here as well), and that could allow us to "uncripple" physical teammates. (EDIT: Don't think heal bell is worth it after all. Sylveon is an offensive pokemon, not a support.)

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Super Luck
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder Wave
- Follow Me
- Protect

This could serve as a stand-in for amoonguss. Follow me affects grass types (amoonguss's bane), and while twave isn't as strong as spore, it can really help slower teammates out.

Now, you may be asking why super luck + dazzling gleam instead of serene grace + air slash (for paraflinch). The way I see it, you could potentially paraflinch an opponent once or twice, but eventually, you'll attack into a protect and get swatted by a teammate. With super luck + dazzling gleam, you can fish for crits instead while potentially striking all three opponents (increased crit ratio x 3). Might not work, but then togekiss is still primarily a support pokemon.

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Rock Slide

Scarfmence is a tried-and-true intimidator. A pretty straightforward pokemon with 4 coverage moves and intimidate support. Rock slide (the physical attack on an otherwise special attacker) should ONLY be used for mega zard y or talonflame, as the best nature to use is either timid or modest (in order to preserve defenses). 99% of the time in doubles, it drops attack stats and then draco meteors on stuff, then switches out, so it might be a less useful option in triples.

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Head Smash
- Earth Power

I've never actually used hydreigon, but it has really good type synergy with the other pokemon, it has a much higher special attack stat than salamence (allowing for more wiggle room with EV spreads), and it has a 2x vs. a 4x ice weakness. No intimidate support, though, and it only hits a single target. Again, head smash (the physical move) should only be used for 4x rock weaknesses (char and talonflame).

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
- King's Shield
- Substitute Wide Guard
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon / Sacred Sword

Pretty standard set, but effective. This thing has some amazing staying power, and can still do massive damage. Sacred sword deals with kangaskhan better, but flash cannon or iron head makes a reliable STAB against fairy types.

---

Anyways, those are some thoughts on what potential pokemon we could use. I'd love to hear comments and criticism! :D

 

[ethan06]

I agree with a lot of what EnGarde has said... strong spread in general is the first thing I think of when I'm faced with a format like Triples, and a lot of the common users can fit easily into common cores like Fire-Water-Grass and Dragon-Fairy-Steel. I'm a bit leery of the idea of Mega Gardevoir though, mostly because it burns up our Mega slot very early and has issues with taking common hits. Sylveon would work a lot better if we decide to go with Hyper Voice spam.

Heatran @ Air Balloon/Sitrus Berry/Life Orb
Modest
Flash Fire
180 HP/252 Sp. Atk/76 Spd
-Heat Wave
-Earth Power
-Ancient Power
-Protect

I'd like to put forward a case for Heatran, which hits incredibly hard with Heat Wave and can support the team by providing a hard stop to common threats like Talonflame, Aegislash, Sylveon and Mega Charizard X and Y. It has trouble with rain teams but does well against practically every other archetype. It's #4 in the usage statistics for Triples on this random site and most likely for good reason. Eruption can be used if we decide to go with Trick Room. It has 4x resistances to Fairy and Ice, making it a great stop for Round teams and has a handy Steel typing to fit into a DFS core. It's a great Pokémon to start with and build a team around, so I'm putting this forward. :3

 

[EnGarde]

Yeah, heatran is a really good option. My post was a bit of a rush job, and we definitely need to consider more dragons as well.

Looking at PGL stats...sylveon often carries hidden power (57.7%). I'm guessing HP fire for steel types, what do you guys think?

Also, I stand corrected on hitmontop. Detect is only 4.8% likely: must be because it has so many other more useful moves.


Also, I'm seeing this:

(#1) +

(#7) +

(#12)
Tailwind (67.4%) + Water Spout (82.9%) + Drizzle (100%)

Pretty terrifying.

Also, I keep forgetting aegis gets wide guard. I've edited it into the proposed set on my post above.

 

[Age of Kings]

Sorry for the late response, weekend and all.

I like your idea of FSD core EnGarde . I am definitely a bigger fan of Sylveon than Mega Gardevoir though - I don't like how Garde uses up a Mega Slot and how comparatively more difficult it is to support. ethan06 covered my objections pretty well.

Speaking of ethan, I really like the Heatran suggestion. We should definitely run it. It walls so many things (and dissuades Heat Wave spam) and Air Balloon is tougher to pop in Triples.

However, I don't think it gets enough support with the Pokemon we have on the table right now since most of the stuff suggested so far are offensive oriented. (Not at all knocking the FSD concept.) If we are going to emphasize spread moves, then we should lead with Hitmontop to break those Wide Guards or run Talonflame to take out its common users like Hitmontop, Aegi, and other Fighting types. I think we should run Talonflame period for the support and to burn the ubiquitous Kanga. I don't think we should run Adamant however, since the utility it provides to the team is extremely helpful and I'd like it on the field longer. I need to do calcs on the Fighting types though.

So for now, perhaps....Hitmontop lead / Talonflame support / Heatran? Let me know objections. I do agree we need a Dragon to soak up those stupid rain teams. Hydreigon is good but Dark is a slightly difficult type to cover because it's dead if one Hyper Voice gets off on the field and it doesn't like CC.

This isn't a very long post but I spent a lot of time thinking about the stuff put on the table. I'll begin theorymoning spreads. I am convinced Adamant is not optimal for Hitmontop and Talonflame.

---

If we need Ally Switch, Mienshao and Gallade should be the only options considered imo. Mienshao has Feint, Fake Out, Wide Guard, and Ally Switch (god the 4mss hurts. It needs a Fighting move), whereas Gallade can actually threaten things with that offense. Also screens and Heal Pulse. We shouldn't run too many frail things though.

 

[EnGarde]

I like the idea of support talonflame, and was thinking about it as well. However, I don't know if I'd call it a true counter to aegislash, because you're left playing king's shield mindgames, and unless we're going with adamant choice band max attack investment, we're not going to OHKO with flare blitz:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (104.1 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 151-182 (90.4 - 108.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 116-140 (69.4 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for hitmontop:

0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 108-127 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 4 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 42-50 (13.8 - 16.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 160-189 (103.8 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 60-72 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT: If we do choose to use talonflame, I think we'd have to use it like gengar: fast and frail support that probably will only survive one or two turns, in which case adamant is better than nothing for when we choose to attack.

EDIT2: Damage Calc trolls me by reverting to level 100... T_T Accurate calcs posted by Age of King's below.

 

[Pyritie]

EDIT: If we do choose to use talonflame, I think we'd have to use it like gengar: fast and frail support that probably will only survive one or two turns, in which case adamant is better than nothing for when we choose to attack.

Jolly's still better for things like outspeeding greninjas and other fast things.

 

[EnGarde]

Was this invasive? This might have been invasive. I dunno.

Anyways, just popping in quickly to say I looked up some of the profile pages of the top triples players right now. #4, Mikado, had a public battle profile and a few public battle codes, so I viewed one. 7HXW-WWWW-WWW8-TVTH

I learned that brave bird can apparently hit across the field, regardless of where talonflame is. (left position talonflame can hit opponent's right position pokemon)

Here's some info of the teams that I could see:

Winning #4 team:

Mega Ampharos
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power

Hitmontop
- Fake Out
- Close Combat

Chandelure
- Shadow Ball

Talonflame @ Possibly choice locked
- Brave Bird

Gastrodon
- Scald

Aegislash
- Iron Head
- Shadow Claw
(Played very aggressively: left in blade form for many turns)

---

Losing Opponent's team:

Slowking
- Trick Room

Hariyama

Mega Ampharos
- Dragon pulse
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Rocky helmet
- Spore
- Giga Drain

Aegislash
- Shadow Claw
- King's shield

Talonflame
- Brave Bird

---

I'll admit, mega ampharos wasn't even on my radar, but it does counter rain pretty well.

 

[Pyritie]

I learned that brave bird can apparently hit across the field, regardless of where talonflame is. (left position talonflame can hit opponent's right position pokemon)

All flying-type attacks and "pulse" moves (i.e. everything boosted by mega launcher) can do that.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Here's my Season 3 top US team. I'm a bit pressed for time before I go to work, but at least hopefully someone can make good use outta this.

Landmaster (Garchomp) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head

Mr. Fish (Gyarados) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Taunt

=3 (Togekiss) (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Follow Me

Fat Egg Thing (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled

Fairy Poots (Mawile) (F) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

Psykitty (Meowstic) (M) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Quick Guard
- Safeguard
- Swagger
- Psychic

 

[ethan06]

If we need Ally Switch, Mienshao and Gallade should be the only options considered imo. Mienshao has Feint, Fake Out, Wide Guard, and Ally Switch (god the 4mss hurts. It needs a Fighting move), whereas Gallade can actually threaten things with that offense. Also screens and Heal Pulse. We shouldn't run too many frail things though.

To be honest I don't really see Ally Switch being that useful in Triples, as it fails if the user is in the centre, meaning that it can only be used once as opposed to in Doubles where it can be used multiple times. Other moves like Heal Pulse and Helping Hand will have their uses though for sure...
Here's a useful link by the way. In the table about halfway down you can see that pretty much all Flying moves (except Air Cutter which is spread), plus Flying Press and the aura and pulse moves (Heal Pulse, Water Pulse, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse and Dark Pulse) can be used to hit faraway opponents. This explains Blastoise's popularity...

 

[Age of Kings]

gdi PGL is down for maintenance.

EnGarde You might be using the wrong level for those calcs, because I'm getting:

-1 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 116-138 (73.8 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 4 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 84-98 (53.5 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 60-71 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I was thinking of running more defensive sets with Impish or Careful but after running calcs, I don't see very much to be gained unless we invest everything in defenses (as in I'm not entirely sure what Talonflame can wall in this tier). We could probably just stay with Adamant and rely on Hitmontop and another teammate for peels while Talonflame gets Tailwinds off. Pyritie, Talonflame can't OHKO Greninja without Adamant. I don't find Jolly useful at all since if we run Brave Bird / Quick Guard / WoW / Tailwind, that's three out of four moves that get priority. Jolly is only good for enemy Talonflame but if we run Quick Guard then it will be easier to dispose of.

Nice find on the PGL btw. I was thinking of running support Talonflame not to try and beat Aegi one-on-one but because running WoW means you can check physical variants (WoW goes through King's Shield so no prediction game). I feel weird about the sets posted though, I'm not sure why it seems from that small sample that physical Aegislash is better represented than special Aegislash at that higher level of play. Very strange to see that many Mega Ampharos. It seems very anti-meta to me.

MythTrainerInfinity Interesting team. Is Outrage also random target in triples? How did you manage it? From appearances it seems that the purpose of your team is to interrupt the enemy setup while getting Mawile to +2 and sweep. Any reason for Blissey > Chansey (fear of Knock Off perhaps?)

ethan06 Don't forget that Blastoise can also learn Fake Out. I'm actually look at its perks and wanting to run one myself. We don't have rain though. I think the next thing we should really look at after we settle on a lead and support is what we will spend our Mega Slot on. Maybe we can run dual Fake Outs between Hitmontop and Blastoise, Talonflame sets up Tailwind and then we can wreck the enemy team. Burn + Intimidate to destroy the physical threats, special threats idk lol.

@all: Since Hitmontop seems the most likely candidate for a lead so far (at least I haven't seen any objections), I'd like to ask how important is it for Hitmontop to OHKO 4/0 Kanga and 180 HP/0 Heatran?

This question is important because these are the main reasons to run Adamant Hitmontop from calcs. Otherwise, it is to our benefit to run a bulkier one and keep it alive on the field as long as possible. There is a 50% chance to OHKO the Heatran spread ethan listed. These are obviously meaningless if Hitmontop gets burned or Intimidated.

 

[EnGarde]

Age of Kings Yeah, I just redid the calcs, and you're right. I try to calc at level 50, but when you're switching between sets and pokemon, the fact that it resets levels back to 100 every time is pretty annoying.

On talonflame: it is *technically* possible (if we want to be anti-meta) to run impish + bulk up, but that sounds a bit gimmicky to me. My vote is just to go with standard adamant, with either an attack boosting item (sky plate/sharp beak, if brave bird is our only attacking move), or focus sash.

As for looking up players, I got the idea from DrZoidburglar over on the RMT thread. I only had time to watch 1 match this morning, but that one trainer had a few more battle vids that are public, so we should be able to collect more data there (not to mention there are probably more open profiles as well). My impression of Mikado (the current #4 ranked player I looked at) was that they had a pretty aggressive play-style; probably more aggressive than we want with our team, since more than 1 person will be trying it out (I know I will, and I'm assuming the others here as well). Still feels a bit weird, like I might be invading their privacy, but I guess the balance is that the person had the choice of whether to make their profile public or private, and they chose to make it public.

As for the hitmontop spread, (I'm 100% in favor of using hitmontop, btw), I feel we'd get more use out of feint breaking through protect/guards than straight-up OHKOing with CC, so I'm in favor of careful, since it looks like a lot of common spread moves (barring rock slide--resisted--and earthquake) are specially based (heat wave, water spout, surf, icy wind, ...and, well, hyper voice ^^). This strategy could actually give us good synergy with sylveon, if we use feint to break the predicted wide guard on the opponent's biggest threat (either the guard setter, or the threat the guard is protecting), and sylveon taking the threat out (especially if the guard setter is a mirror hitmontop). We also might want to put a few EVs into speed, simply to speed creep other hitmontop.

Food for thought: Aegislash makes an excellent wide guard user, as its ghost typing makes it immune to feint (normal type attack). I actually have a wide guard honedge, so we can roll with it quickly if we choose to use it. Though, I think the guard can still be broken on other pokemon that are not ghost type.

Logistics: How many people will actually want to try out this team? Do we want to:
(1) make a standard template and ask users to breed/RNG/EV the pokemon on their own, or
(2) make 1 copy of each teammate (fully EV'd, leveled, and battle ready) and clone them for everybody?

I see active contributions from Age of Kings, ethan06, Pyritie, MythTrainerInfinity, and me (5 copies of the team; 30 pokemon in total). I have access to powersaves (for mass cloning) and I'm gearing up to RNG more of my legends from Black 2 (heatran included), which I'd be willing to donate to the cause if we decide to go with option #2.

If we do decide to go with option #2, I suggest we come up with a standard nickname scheme that references this project, so we can keep track of these pokemon more easily, both on-cart and in the wifi forum (it'd make me really sad to see a million copies of my heatran being offered all over the wifi forum and not in relation to this effort, for example).

Finally, is this our Current Proposed Team?

Support Hitmontop
- Close Combat
- Feint
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out

Support Talonflame
Probably Adamant
Gale Wings
Probably 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind
- Will-o-Wisp
- Quick Guard

Bulky Attacker Heatran @ Air Balloon/Sitrus Berry/Life Orb
Modest
Flash Fire
180 HP/252 Sp. Atk/76 Spd
-Heat Wave
-Earth Power
-Ancient Power
-Protect
(No steel type move for STAB vs Fairies?)

Some Dragon Type

Some Fairy Type that isn't Mega Gardevoir (potentially sylveon)

Some Mega Evolution or other pokemon

 

[Pyritie]

I actually have a wide guard honedge, so we can roll with it quickly if we choose to use it. Though, I think the guard can still be broken on other pokemon that are not ghost type.

I've got a fully trained, wide guard, Quiet with 0 spe aegislash if you want to borrow it for cloning

I see active contributions from Age of Kings, ethan06, Pyritie, MythTrainerInfinity, and me (5 copies of the team; 30 pokemon in total). I have access to powersaves (for mass cloning) and I'm gearing up to RNG more of my legends from Black 2 (heatran included), which I'd be willing to donate to the cause if we decide to go with option #2.

Sure, I can help breed/contribute some of these things. From the list you posted, I've got a modest and timid hydreigon (the timid ones have earth power IIRC), an adamant BD+AJ azumarill, both modest and timid ampharos (with agility and electric terrain), a modest NP togekiss, a bold (I think?) klefki, and a jolly rough skin chomp. All KB. I've also got a jolly quick guard talonflame but you said you wanted adamant.

I've also got a bunch of timid latioses but I'm pretty sure they're genned.

 

[ethan06]

I have a legit-hacked Modest Heatran with the given EV spread that I can donate (as long as I get the original back), which is half the reason I suggested it :p I can also lend you some of my spare VGC mons to be cloned (Garchomp, Amoonguss, Kangaskhan and Bisharp iirc), my hacked Hyper Voice Sylveon, and a couple other things that could be useful. Depends on how open we are to hacked mons... They're also mostly non-nicknameable. :s

EDIT: Also, anyone who hasn't already done so should pop over to this thread to put their Friend Codes up so we can do these trades ;)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Outrage does target randomly, however, when I use SafeSwag and Landshark is at +2 or +4 and there isn't a fairy in front of her something will probably die, lol. I have always used Blissey since gen 3 and dat Lefties recovery. I think I should try Chansey this season though... Also Togekiss is so good with Garchomp and wven more so if you have Wide Guard.

 

[EnGarde]

Pyritie ethan06 Thank you for the offers. The KB ones are great, and we can run with some of those, but I think we shouldn't start with genned pokemon.

Maybe I'm looking too many steps ahead, but I think, after we test out the team amongst ourselves to make sure it's stable and figure out what kind of screening process we want to do (I'm not in favor of giving free stuff to moochers), we could offer the team in the wifi forum as a way to get people into competitive battling here. I think if we lower the bar to entry by helping them get a ready-made competitive team, that'd be a great way to increase readership here.

However, wifi has a very strict "no hacks" policy, and we could be black-listed from the wifi forum for distributing genned pokemon there (that's a pretty big deal to me, because I'm pretty active over there). Thus, if we want to distribute these, staying away from genned pokemon from the beginning is the best policy.

I have the ability to RNG so mostly this isn't a big deal for heatran, latios, and 1 anticipation eevee (the gift one from fennel; locked male so no gen 5 breeding; this means no egg moves AND hyper voice, though). Latias would be the only challenge, since it isn't available in Black 2.

EDIT: Also, this is why I'm in favor of having a common nicknaming scheme for all pokemon we use for this project. This helps establish all clones as being a part of this project. :)

 

[Age of Kings]

Regarding Hitmontop nature; alright, so we're down to Careful vs Impish. Impish is technically optimal....under the assumption we will be using Wide Guard every turn (since the special spam is attributable to spread special moves having a wider distribution). We won't. Careful allows for longterm survival.

Benefits of Impish:
- Avoids Adamant Mega Kanga 2HKO: -1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 69-82 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- Survives CB Talonflame: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 122-146 (77.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's the main stuff? Hitmontop doesn't give a single fuck about Landorus-T or Garchomp, everything else is special.

Benefits of Careful: (see proposed spread below for reasons I'm not running 252/252)
- 252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Hitmontop in Sun: 72-85 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Hitmontop: 60-72 (38.2 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Hitmontop in Rain: 115-136 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Remember that this calc is only for a Blastoise at full health.
- 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Hitmontop in Sun: 118-139 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- We get OHKO'd by Specs Hyper Voice, but if we see Sylv on the field then it's safe to say SPAM WIDE GUARD. Moonblast fucks us.

With Careful, Hitmontop is able to survive some of the strongest attacks in the tier.

I'd like to propose the following spread:
Nature: Careful
252 HP / 180 SpD / 76 Speed

76 Speed is essential to outrun 4 Speed Blastoise and beat it to the Fake Out; we can also outrun neutral Heatran that run less than 20 Speed. We will also be avoiding speed creep bullshit from enemy Hitmontop and Politoed in the same speed tier (if they run more than us, they will be severely compromised as far as bulk goes).

Btw, I was considering 252 HP / 60 Def / 120 SpD / 76 Speed (a variation of the Smogon doubles analysis) but 73% of Triples Cress run Psychic and we need Lefties to avoid the 2HKO from Psyshock so it's pointless imo.

Regarding the other responses: Sorry I haven't had much time to address the other points yet, it's been a busy week for me. The draft EnGarde posted looks good to me. Please don't feel like I'm ignoring all of your input.

 

[Pyritie]

However, wifi has a very strict "no hacks" policy, and we could be black-listed from the wifi forum for distributing genned pokemon there (that's a pretty big deal to me, because I'm pretty active over there). Thus, if we want to distribute these, staying away from genned pokemon from the beginning is the best policy.

I'm not familiar with the wifi forum here, do clones count as "hacks"? Even ones obtained through the trading glitch?

the gift one from fennel; locked male so no gen 5 breeding; this means no egg moves AND hyper voice, though

Wait, so how is anyone supposed to get a legit egg move + hyper voice HA eevee in gen 6 at all?

 

[BlakDragon]

Pyritie

It's very rare, but each hidden Grotto has a chance of housing a HA Eevee of either gender (I've had the game since launch and I don't recall ever seeing one there since). Otherwise Eevee of both genders were found in a Dream World area, when that feature was live.

 

[Age of Kings]

Since everyone liked my post and I see no objections, I'm taking that as consensus on our lead in the middle position except for item. Personally, I'd like to touch on items last because I don't want to throw on Sitrus Berry on something and we realize it works better on something else. Item clause and all. Here's our lead:

Hitmontop
Careful
252 HP / 180 SpD / 76 Speed

Close Combat
Fake Out
Wide Guard
Feint

So what I was thinking next is, since we like spread moves, we can move onto some hard-hitting Pokemon in the side positions that compliment Hitmontop.

I am partial to Heatran as ethan suggested because it shits on things that Hitmontop can't touch like Talonflame, Aegi, and Charizards. Heatran dissuades Heat Wave spam on the enemy field. As mentioned we definitely have massive 4mss that should be addressed. I like Ancientpower. Since we are supposed to use it to check Charizard and Talonflame, we should run something that can actually kill them. Running without STAB Flash Cannon can also be a problem, especially since if the enemy is running Flash Fire mons, we will be left without strong and reliable STAB to spam. imho Protect is the most disposable item but definitely makes playing with Heatran a bit trickier.

Afterwards, my own opinion is that we can build on that to add Sylveon for more spread damage and Talonflame for support since this combination has the potential to compliment each other well. I'm very meh on Adamant for a primarily support set without Roost still rofl. (Sitrus Berry + Acrobatics after we Tailwind + burn?)

Threats that aren't addressed by these should we move forward:
- Rain really shits on this comp, as it's questionable how Sylv and Hitmontop will hold up to these threats.
- Really fast teams - even with Tailwind, we're a bit on the slow side. I don't think Trick Room is the solution, but our team should add a little speed down the line. Talonflame doesn't count due to priority and speed ties with enemy Talonflame.

These are the concerns I have, there are obviously more. We should likely have a Dragon or Mega Blastoise (yes I know it isn't fast) to help address these concerns.

 

[EnGarde]

I'm not familiar with the wifi forum here, do clones count as "hacks"? Even ones obtained through the trading glitch?

Wifi is fickle. Any pokemon that has been created, edited, or modified by an outside program (pokegen) is considered a hack. The baby pokemon of a hacked pokemon is also considered hacked (this is more for obvious things, like a legitly bred aegislash, but in a dream ball, for example). Using an outside program to copy a pokemon without changing it in any way, however, is not considered hacking, so long as the pokemon was obtained in-game. Also, RNG abuse is allowed, because it is using an outside program to help you figure out the exact right time to collect your impossibly perfect pokemon, but doesn't actually ever interact with your game).

Wait, so how is anyone supposed to get a legit egg move + hyper voice HA eevee in gen 6 at all?

BlakDragon, you were close, but unfortunately, HA female eevees were always available only through events in Japan in gen 5. The eevees only appeared in the hidden grottoes during a special funfest mission that I think you had to receive while in a Pokemon Center location. Japan always gets the best stuff first.

On another note: right now there is a special promotion in North America (might just be the US, though), where you can get a special event vivillon (the pokeball pattern). This should end quickly, so make sure you guys pick it up if you can! :)

---

PGL is back up. The #4 player, Mikado, that I've been following is now #1. Might watch another match or 2 this evening. Will edit with findings if I do.

Also noticed that politoed has been bumped off the top 12 in favor of Mr. Meowstic. Interesting development.

Age of Kings I know we're not ready to discuss items yet, but I noticed that hitmontop is 40.1% likely to carry eject button, followed by lum berry, and then sitrus. Eject button might be a more aggressive option, but if we're generally using his priority moves and he's already used his move for that turn when he gets hit, then that might serve as a free switch for us that spreads the damage taken between more than 1 pokemon (if 'top gets double or triple targeted). The only frail we're currently running is talonflame, and that'll be used as a lead (so won't be accidentally called by eject button), correct? It might be worth considering.

I do still like ethan06's heatran spread, though I think I'm more in favor of flash cannon over ancient power because the 10% chance of stat boosts do not balance the underwhelming power of the move when used on things not named charizard and talonflame. I'm willing to listen further on this, though.

Still need to consider how to prepare our team for rain and high speed tier teams. Will do that in a future post, though, lol.

EDIT: Watched another battle vid. This time is #1 Mikado vs. #8 Zawa. Zawa got trick room up and had the more favorable board position plus all the momentum at the beginning, but Mikado was able to turn the match around. Really good, really close match. Team details under the hide. Would you guys prefer I put long pieces of text under hides, or out in the open where you have to scroll past them?

Hide

#1 Mikado vs #8 Zawa WY9W-WWWW-WWW8-UKSR

#1’s Team:

Chandelure
167 hp
-shadow ball
-protect
-overheat

Hitmontop @ Eject Button
(slower than blastoise)
157 hp

Aegislash @ Life orb
167 hp
-shadow claw
-king’s shield
-iron head

Ampharos @ Mega
197 hp
(slower than mawile outside trick room — got flinched)
-dragon pulse
(no protect?)

Talonflame @ still think this is choiced
185 hp
-brave bird
-flare blitz

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
218 hp
storm drain (duh)
(out-slowed sylveon—went first in Trick room)
(slower than mawile outside trick room)
-protect
-recover
-earth power
(really played well with this vs. FEAR chimchar)

#8’s Team:

Landorus-T @ Possibly choiced
-u-turn
-earth power (100% sure on this; not earthquake)

Blastoise
-Fake out
-Muddy water
-blizzard

Kecleon
protean (duh)
-Trick room
-Rock slide
-feint
-Magic coat

Sylveon @ NOT choiced
-moonblast
-hyper voice

FEAR Chimchar level 1 @ Focus Sash
12 hp
-Endeavor
-fake out

Mawile @ Mega
-play rough
-rock slide
-sucker punch

 

[Age of Kings]

I'm not a big fan of Eject Button for the simple fact that we'd like Hitmontop to stay on the field to support the team. Remember, we chose Hitmontop's moveset to specifically support the rest of the team after turn 1 with Feint and Wide Guard. HOWEVER, the advantage of Eject Button is that we can get another Intimidate off, but I'm not sure if that tradeoff is worth it since Hitmontop offers little in lategame prowess (the next time it gets on the field, one or more other mons will likely be dead).

I'm not too surprised seeing how male Meowstic offers much team support while functioning as a pseudo-check to Hitmontop leads. (I think ours is fine though.) Personally I'm more concerned about Defiant Tornadus/Thundurus and the other stuff I listed. If it really gets out of hand, Taunt Thundurus is the way to go. Nice catch! (I need to work on the usage stats discussion thread btw...)

 

[Karxrida]

I don't play Battle Spot and I've never done triples, but fuck it I'm contributing to this.

A cool option to have would be Bisharp.

Triples Attacker
########
move 1: Assurance / Night Slash / Knock Off
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Iron Head
move 4: Quick Guard / Protect
ability: Defiant
item: Black Glasses / Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

Bisharp resists Sucker Punch from Mawile and Mega Khan and can OHKO Mega Mawile with Iron Head after a Defiant boost since many run Intimidate. Steel-typing means it also resists Flying moves (which ignore placement) and Rock Slide but gives it a weakness to Earthquake and Heat Wave.

Assurance deals good damage if it hits a target after it's already been damaged that turn (like by Hitmontop's Feint), Iron Head is for Fairies, and Sucker Punch lets you smack stuff before they can smack you. Quick Guard gives team support against the likes of Talonflame and opposing Sucker Punches. If you don't want to rely on Assurance, Night Slash (if you have Quick Guard since it's a Gen VI egg move) or Knock Off (Gen V tutor) are good alternatives.

EDIT: Switched to a nicer format (read: took it from the Preliminary Dex)

 

[BlakDragon]

EnGarde

I'm certain Eevee of both genders were made available in two Dream World areas as well; I even grabbed a few female Eevee from there. Serebii and Bulbapedia have them listed in 2 different Dream World areas.

Since I have such Eevee in my possession, if you guys want I can breed up some Eevee with whatever egg moves/tutor moves you guys want, should you want to include it in the team.

Also I've been watching Mikado's battles too! Ty for finding somebody who has their battle history set to public*. I really dig his team's solid switch synergy and ability to perform well out of trick room for quite a while. Definitely a good watch for anyone looking to see some higher-level Triples play.