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Gen 6 Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by NOVED, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Jul 9, 2014
    Framework taken from Feliburn who took it from someone else etc. etc.
    Usage stats here and here
    Discussion thread here

    [​IMG] Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings[​IMG]
    Welcome to the Battle Spot ORAS Viability Rankings thread. Here, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into ranks. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the Pokemon that are usable in the metagame and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank Pokemon based on their effectiveness in the Battle Spot Singles metagame.

    Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):
    (In alphabetical order)

    S Rank
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Gengar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan (Mega)
    [​IMG] Thundurus

    A Rank

    [​IMG] Aegislash
    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Blaziken
    [​IMG] Blaziken (Mega)

    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Landorus-Therian
    [​IMG] Rotom-Wash
    [​IMG] Salamence (Mega)
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Talonflame


    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega X)
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega Y)
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)
    [​IMG] Zapdos


    [​IMG] Breloom
    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Lucario (Mega)
    [​IMG] Porygon2
    [​IMG] Scizor (Mega)
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega)

    B Rank

    [​IMG] Altaria (Mega)
    [​IMG] Conkeldurr
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Gardevoir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Klefki
    [​IMG] Latios
    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega)
    [​IMG] Manectric (Mega)
    [​IMG] Metagross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG] Rotom-Heat
    [​IMG] Sableye (Mega)
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Sylveon
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Thundurus-Therian
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)
    [​IMG] Volcarona
    [​IMG] Weavile


    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Cloyster
    [​IMG] Entei
    [​IMG] Gallade (Mega)
    [​IMG] Glalie
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Mandibuzz
    [​IMG] Politoed
    [​IMG] Sableye
    [​IMG] Scizor
    [​IMG] Swampert
    [​IMG] Swampert (Mega)
    [​IMG] Whimsicott


    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Blastoise (Mega)
    [​IMG] Diggersby
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG] Jellicent
    [​IMG] Kingdra
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Pinsir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Roserade
    [​IMG] Sharpedo
    [​IMG] Sharpedo (Mega)
    [​IMG] Togekiss

    C Rank

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl (Mega)
    [​IMG] Aggron (Mega)
    [​IMG] Ampharos (Mega)
    [​IMG] Cobalion
    [​IMG] Espeon
    [​IMG] Houndoom (Mega)
    [​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Noivern
    [​IMG] Reuniclus
    [​IMG] Rhyperior
    [​IMG] Scolipede
    [​IMG] Scrafty
    [​IMG] Starmie
    [​IMG] Tornadus-Therian
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet


    [​IMG] Azelf
    [​IMG] Beedrill (Mega)
    [​IMG] Clawitzer
    [​IMG] Dragalge
    [​IMG] Glalie (Mega)
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Pidgeot (Mega)
    [​IMG] Vaporeon
    [​IMG] Vivillon


    [​IMG] Escavalier

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)
    [​IMG] Drifblim
    [​IMG] Honchkrow
    [​IMG] Steelix (Mega)
    [​IMG] Omastar

    • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" without giving any reasoning will not be tolerated
    • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but avoid basing your entire argument around them.
    • No flaming
    • No one-liners or useless comments
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
    Test Bot #, Amorya, tko and 7 others like this.
  2. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Jul 9, 2014
    Changes from last thread:
    Show Hide

    These were all discussed among the viability council.

    Suicune A- -> A+

    Landorus-T A -> A+

    Breloom A -> A-

    Mega Heracross unranked -> A

    Mega Lopunny A -> B+

    Serperior B- -> A

    Mandibuzz A- -> B

    Mega Sableye A- -> B+

    Sableye A- -> B

    Mega Scizor unranked -> A-

    Mega Altaria B -> B+

    Excadrill B -> B+

    Conkeldurr unranked -> B+

    Latios B -> B-

    Quagsire B+ -> B-

    Raikou B -> B+

    Sylveon B -> B+

    Thundurus-T unranked -> B+

    Mega Venusaur B -> B+

    Scizor unranked -> B

    Chansey unranked -> B-

    Diggersby C+ -> B-

    Cloyster unranked -> C+

    Scrafty B -> B-

    Mega Aggron B -> B+

    Sharpedo(both) B -> B-

    Aegislash S -> A+

    Thundurus A+ -> S

    Since these two are major changes I'll try to explain them a bit. Aegislash hasn't really been as consistent in the meta as much as other S ranks, as you can see from usage stats its constantly dropping. It has great versatility and typing, but its low speed makes it easier to revenge kill and easier to deal with in general. Thundurus on the other hand has been very consistent, has coverage to deal with its common checks, useful typing, and great utility thanks to Prankster.

    Also, the lower ranks are pretty small right now so don't hesitate to nominate some niche pokemon you've used that you think are worthy of a rank.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
    cant say likes this.
  3. teamjohto


    Apr 25, 2015
    I guess I'll go ahead and kick things off:

    [​IMG] Feraligatr to B

    Dragon Dance+Sheer Force+Life Orb is a deadly combination that comes at no opportunity cost in the mega department unlike most others who do his job, like Zard-X and M-Tyranitar.

    Having surprisingly bulky 85/100/83 defenses and pure Water typing offers him plenty of opportunities to set up Dragon Dance, boosting to well above 135 base speed pokemon with a jolly nature, and hit like a truck with all the boosting power at his disposal.

    He's still countered by physically bulky Rotom-W, and Mega Gyarados can counter variants who lack Superpower, but if you don't pack that hard answer to him, Feraligatr can run away with the battle easily just by dealing stupid amounts of damage.
  4. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Jul 9, 2014
    Mega Ampharos is a cool mon, but could you just explain a bit more on why you think it should be ranked/what it does well and what rank exactly?
  5. Psynergy

    Psynergy Guaranteed Crits
    is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Nov 18, 2014
    Think that there's still several Megas more viable than Steelix and Camerupt that can be ranked but I don't know enough about them in BSS to nominate them myself. I do want to bring up Roserade for C rank though. I'd been curious about it since it was in a list of Pokemon cant say brought up way back for stuff that might be worth a rank somewhere, and it's even on the list of low priority unreserved analyses so I figured it'd have some sort of niche. I tried both Scarf and Sash awhile back, and while Scarf felt honestly pretty bad, I found Sash Roserade has some fun utility as a lure and revenge killer thanks to Technician Hidden Power.

    Hidden Power Ice is cool for picking off unsuspecting Salamence while also taking out Landorus-T and Garchomp, but HP Rock also deals with Talonflame and Charizard Y more effectively (offensive Talonflame variants still get KO'ed by Sludge Bomb after recoil though). Magical Leaf as a strong STAB thanks to Technician is also kinda neat for dealing with random evasion boosts but most of the common users don't take too much from Magical Leaf so it's not exactly a reliable stop to evasion spam. Sleep Powder also offers some nice defensive utility to put an expected switch-in to sleep and possibly snipe them while keeping Sash intact. Natural Cure might also have some utility to switch into random Thunder Waves and soft "check" Thundurus but I don't know if giving up Technician Hidden Power is worth that. Grass/Poison is stopped by a quite a few things too, and without Life Orb it lacks raw power on top of its iffy base 90 Speed, so I don't feel it's much more than a fun niche pick to lure things with Hidden Power.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
    ethan06 likes this.
  6. GateCreeper


    Aug 11, 2014
    Have to disagree on this one. Feraligatr struggles to break the bulkiest of mons after 1 DD with LO (Cress, P2 if no Superpower, and Suicune are some examples) and it's quite susceptible to any form of status. Sure, you can use Lum Berry to stop it once, but you miss out on a lot of power. It does have the bulk to survive some hits, but it still lacks the defense to survive the strongest of hits. Even if it manages to survive a hit, it can be easily revenged by a fast scarfer or a decent priority move. Feraligatr just doesn't get many chances to "run away" with the battle like you said in my opinion. It should stay in B-.

    As for what I'm adding:

    [​IMG] -----> B/B+: Mega Sceptile did a lot better than I expected when I decided to make a team around it and use it online. 120 Base Speed is pretty nice before it mega evolves, allowing it to outspeed the likes of Thundurus and Mega Salamence before Mega Evolution (it can take a hit of LO HP Ice from Thundurus in regular form and proceed to 2HKO it with Dragon Pulse if there's no bulk invested, which is pretty cool). When mega evolved goes to a blistering 145, outspeeding things like neutral natured Choice Scarf Landorus-T and neutral natured Choice Scarf Mamoswine. Coupled along with its 145 Special Attack, it really has the potential to clean or revenge kill weakened teams. It stops HP Ice-less Rotom-W cold, OHKOs Suicune with Leaf Storm, and OHKOs Salamence, Mega Charizard, and Garchomp with Dragon Pulse, which are some of the most common dragons in the meta. Lightning Rod can be useful against T-wavers like Thundurus, using the boost to potentially sweep teams. SubSeed is a pretty fun set with it . Unfortunately, it is frail, so it fails to survive most SE attacks and strong neutral attacks. It's quite weak to priority moves like Brave Bird and Ice Shard, both of which are fairly common. It also gets completely walled by Aegislash and some steels like M-Mawile if it lacks HP Fire or Focus Blast. Fairies not named Azu give it trouble too. I think this mon deserves at the least B, maybe B+. Why can't this thing learn Draco Meteor??!!

    [​IMG] -----> C / C-: Bronzong has pretty good bulk and has two magnificent abilities in Heatproof and Levitate. I don't have too much experience with using this pokemon but I did try the Assault Vest set, and it proved not to be terrible. It can survive the likes of Megazard Y's Overheat in Sun with Heatproof and OHKO it back with Rock Slide. It stops Heatran pretty well and it takes on Talonflame decently too. The best part about using Assault Vest Bronzong is fooling the amount of people who think it's a dual screen set, lead with Thundurus, and Taunt only to get 2HKO'd by Rock Slide. Many Garchomps are even afraid to EQ because of Levitate. Its steel typing gives it an immunity to toxic, and some nifty resistances. However, this pokemon is deserving of C because it lacks a reliable recovery, even without Assualt Vest. Its offense is quite lacking as well, and it's really noticeable when facing something that it can't hit super effectively. Burns and Scald users also really ruin its day. There are more viable things to check Fire types than Bronzong, and it's only decent at setting up screens so I feel it deserves a C, C- at the worst.

    [​IMG] -----> B: Umbreon has great bulk and a nice typing. It can be used a sort of a cleric to stall teams or a check to physical boosting sweepers with Foul Play + Rocky Helmet. It does have the bulk to take some pretty strong hits, and retaliate with a strong Foul Play if facing something like M-Kanga or M-Mence. Swagger + Foul Play is pretty nice for special attackers, and it can utilize Toxic well with that nice bulk and decent recovery in Moonlight. That's where the good stuff sorta ends. It gets destroyed by Blaziken, is susceptible of Toxic itself if it lacks Heal Bell, doesn't resist a whole lot of moves other than ghost (Psychic isn't really common), and it hates being Taunted. Fairies like Azumarill and Mega Mawile set up on Umbreon practically for free as well. I'm not too sure on the ranking, but B looks like a safe spot to put it.

    There's more I want to put up for discussion here but I think I need to play a bit more with the pokes. Feel free to disagree with anything I said here.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
    Hulavuta likes this.
  7. freekhoorn


    Jul 3, 2012
    Hey all, my mega is the fabulous mega-Ampharos [​IMG] and i have chosen it because it is very bulky on both sides: 90/105/110 and has a good defensive type combination with six resistances: water/fire/electric (*0,25)/grass/flying/steel. Plus, it is as well insanely hardhitting: it is the third pokemon with the highest special attack on battlespot with her 165 base stat special attack. It also has a pretty wide movepool for coverage with: power gem, focus blast, signal beam. And it has some support moves with volt-switch and because it is slow it can work as a great pivot with it. It can boost its defense stat superfast with cotton guard and it has heal bell. It can work very well in rain because it can abuse thunder and resists as well water type moves as electric and can also work in trick room because of its low speed. I actually do not use all of that and just use it as a hard bulky hitter with great coverage in focus blast to ohko ferrothorn and power gem to ohko volcarona. It is a great check to mega charizard y but suffers from pokemon like garchomp and other faster dragon types and bulky fairy types as sylveon and mega gardevoir. Because of its common threats and its low speed, but on the other hand can function as a bulky hitter, volt-switch pivot, a cleric with heal bell and as a wallbreaker . It really likes support in wish cause it has no reliable recovery. I think it is a solid B pokemon where it is in a tier with mega Blastoise, who has a lot simmiliarities between them.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  8. 6tennis


    Aug 7, 2015
    What do you all think of Staraptor? Reckless-boosted Brave Bird or Double-Edge hits nearly everything like a truck, and it can function as both a wallbreaker, a revenge killer (with access to Final Gambit!), or a pivot. It has amazing coverage, what with Close Combat allowing it to demolish most Rock- and Steel-types that would wall it otherwise. The only problem I see is that it's outclassed in all of its roles. Most notably, Talonflame is an exceptional Flying-type that has an extremely high-power priority move, as well as U-turn, not to mention it also sometimes runs a stallbreaker set, et cetera. Also take a look at Landorus-T - a powerful Choice Scarf user that has great STAB moves and exceptional coverage. My point is that while Staraptor is good at a lot of things, it's not great at one particular thing. For this reason, I'd put it anywhere in the C rank.

    Also, should this thread be pinned? A lot of people can make good use of it.
  9. Benzi


    Sep 7, 2015
    Nominating Aggron (non mega) for D. He has some potential with Head Smash and Rock Head which does serious damage and has good physical bulk but a crippling 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground. Can learn Ice Punch to score an unexpected 0HKO on a dragon, and I've had some succes with Focus Sash.

    Perfectly fits the description of D-rank in my opinion.
  10. teamjohto


    Apr 25, 2015
    oh man, Sturdy+Metal Burst+Custap Berry Endeavor Aggron is one of my favorite gimmicks that when pulled off, Aggron essentially trades 2 for 1.

    But I'm unsure if a mon who's most effective set at the end of the day is a complete gimmick deserves even D.

    Plus, there's better Rock Head+Head Smashers out there like Tyrantrum, who itself is unranked, so that gets me thinking if he deserves a place on here in the D/C range.
  11. Benzi


    Sep 7, 2015
    Tyrantrum has some more flexibility when it comes to builds, I agree. On the other hand, Aggron has some crippling weaknesses but Tyrantrum has a whopping 6 weaknesses including Dragon, Fairy and Ice.
    Aggron has it going for him that he can wall Faeries and some dragons. He has a good shot at taking out Thundurus, Talonflame, Azumaril and perhaps some other top threats.

    I know he's definitely not going to reach the top tiers anytime soon but I'd like to believe he deserves D
  12. teamjohto


    Apr 25, 2015
    Sorry I didn't get to you before, but my main argument is not that Feraligatr can break the burliest of walls BSS has to offer, that's a tall order that's reserved for A rank mons and above, but my reasoning is that it does the job his mega partners do such as Charizard X without the opportunity cost of a mega slot, and that's the role of a dragon dance sweeper.

    like lets take a set-up Zard-X vs. M-Kangaskhan using Dragon Claw, the same STAB BP as Feraligatr's waterfall.

    +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 150-177 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Now lets take Feraligatr with the same BP STAB move.

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 165-195 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    I understand that against Suicune and the tankiest of walls he'll be stopped, but Zard-X suffers similar problems because they both do the same job and dish out similar damage.

    It may just be a weak argument, but I've found a lot of reliability in Feraligatr cause he hits just as hard as any boosted sweeper without having to sacrifice the mega slot to get the same job done.
    freekhoorn likes this.
  13. GateCreeper


    Aug 11, 2014
    My problem with Feraligatr is that it doesn't get up 1 DD as reliably as Megazard X. Looking at the usage for the top 12 pokemon, it doesn't reliably set up on any of them except for maybe Mamoswine, Lando, and Garchomp (If any of these three are scarfed or sashed, they could potentially be a problem). No mega slot is nice and all, but you'd rather be using that mega slot for something like Megazard X because it just does the job way better with its immunity to burns, better bulk, better typing and access to recovery. Imo Feraligatr is fine in B-. I don't mind too much seeing it raise up to B, but I feel like it can compare more with the pokemon in B- rank rather than the ones in B. It just has a hard time finding the right time to sweep a team.
    freekhoorn and teamjohto like this.
  14. ProjectTitan313


    Jan 30, 2012
    STABs are bad, Sash sets can do a fair few things like Hidden Power lures and Sleep Powder, have not tried out more defensive sets yet (despite the much needed +10 base Def that came with Gen 6) but Natural Cure + Rest is pretty fun.
    Roserade also gets Spikes / T. Spikes for a bit of support if you want that. Ferrothorn is obvious, and superior, competition in the defensive Spiker arena, but at the same time Roserade has Speed, different typing, and just adores status moves if you run Natural Cure. Hidden Power is a bit lacking without Technician + LO, but Leaf Storm is decent, not to mention Energy Ball and Magical Leaf have equal power.

    Alas, Hidden Power literally decides what it kills, and what it does not.
    I plan on playing around with Roserade, a lot, out of familiarity and favoritism (which should never be the justification of using something, I know). Might even go nuts with AV sets lol.

    And yes, Scarf Roserade is bad, it always has been.
  15. 6tennis


    Aug 7, 2015
    Talonflame to A+

    What's not to like? Talonflame can do basically anything it wants in the metagame. It runs a variety of sets varying from Wallbreaker, Revenge Killer, Stallbreaker, Sweeper, Defensive, etc. Gale Wings is, without a doubt, one of the best offensive abilities in the game, and Talonflame is amazing at using it. Priority Brave Birds all day mate. It scores an OHKO on most frail mons with a Choice Band or a Life Orb, not to mention it has Swords Dance to boost its Attack. It can run Taunt to beat a lot of stall mons, and it can run Roost to stall out attackers that can't beat it. It also has Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers, Tailwind to provide the whole party with double Speed, and so on. The bird can basically do anything. That's why it's very hard to prepare for - you can only predict what set it's going to run. However, it still gets utterly destroyed by a number of common mons, namely Rotom-Wash, which completely and utterly walls it out. I don't know if it's worthy of A+, but it's worth considering.
    Flamedood likes this.
  16. Flamedood


    Dec 14, 2013
    Just gonna copy and paste my post from the last thread because wynaut

    Hey guys, noticed that Politoed, Kabutops and Kingdra are all unranked, and I think they deserve ranking as rain is a strong archetype in any format and BS is no exception. - I'd rank Kabutops and Kingdra at B (same as M-Swampert) as they trade Swampert's bulk for slightly greater power, no opportunity cost of a mega stone, and in Kabutops' case, priority. "Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential." Kabutops can also run a gimmicky Liechi/Weakness Policy+Endure+Weak Armour set, but don't run that. Politoed I'd rank a bit higher at B+ as it provides immense team support, hits surprisingly hard with rain boosting its stab, and is quite versatile, viably running many sets such as scarf, specs, eject button, damp rock, sitrus berry and wacan berry. I think that politoed is definitely on par with mons such as Klefki, Mega Manectric, Quagsire, Terrakion and Weavile.

    Edit: also seconding 6tennis, sp Def talonflame is amazing
  17. GroudonEmpire


    Sep 24, 2009
    I'd like to rank... wtf is ranking all about anyway?

    I'd like to mention just looking at the rankings you guys have already, this guy can beat most of them 1v1 and even sweep combos of em with reasonable support not more than what a frickin Mega Heracross needs imo!

    Anyway, Mega Ampharos is like a special type Mega Heracross in trick room. It has Mold Breaker so Volt Absord Fluffy Pawz Thundurus-T will take more damage than a good ole weaker Dragon Pulse. It can 2hko pretty much everything that isn't designed to take spdef hits such as chansey, etc. Electric Fighting and Ice coverage is not only phenomenal coverage and then additional Dragon STAB is all the merrier and actually because of it, he does not need to run hp ice and can opt for Agility for outside of trick room utility or Volt Switch or hidden power grass (I don't recommend but an option nonetheless).
    In terms of top 12 and partners, a Cresselia-assisted (because hey, we talking trick room here!) and even outside of trick room (for you to think about so I don't need to type every damn particle of greatness this mon is out!) Mega Ampharos can handle the metagame at least this well:

    1. Can ohko garchomp with DPulse (dont forget the tr setter vs this thing if sashed)
    2. Can ohko MKhan with Focus Blast 100% of the time MINIMUM when it lands vs 4 hp no investment spdef neutral spdef nature variants
    3. 2hko mgengar and can ohko normal gengar high chance while tanking any 1 hit from these guys using a less defensive spread and guaranteed surviving 2 shadow balls from mgengar with max hp investment. I guess you can volt switch/discharge/twave as a forth move over agility if you want to try avoiding dbond from gengar depending on the matchup
    4. You don't need to mega vs incarnate thundurus so you can beat it inside and out of tr and vs therian forme, you win in tr!
    5. Beats cune
    6. Can tank hjk from even LO Blaziken who is stronger than mega (without sd of course) and can beat it in tr
    7. The BIGGGEST thing about ampharos here as a tr mon that trumps mega hera and abomasnow: walls and decimates tflame! even the spdef variants take over 50 from tbolt after roosting
    8. Landorus is an issue for ampharos in tr but how is amph coming in tr? As far am I'm concerned it's a ground immune Cress
    9. AV Mamo can tank focus blast and sashed is an issue also ice shard is troublesome but as is the case when it comes to most grounds, the tr setter must support more vs this ground-mon
    10. can take aegislash 1v1 outside of tr ez as this thing is slower can demolish blade-forme and can survive 2 shadow balls more times than not but in tr, you cant even 2hko shield-forme unless it is a less invested variant or it got chip damage beforehand which isnt too hard and considering this is aegislash, imo amph passes vs it
    11. Salamence can draco or something but most don't have dragon stab right????? Plus adamant max att cannot even ohko with critless eq so an uninvested draco shouldnt ohko most of the time at least! In tr amph should beat this thing unless it has +1 attack and sub, and successfully sub stalls tr. Also, the spread i have in mind with agility doesn't have max hp otherwise uninvested neutral spatt mega mence draco never ohkos 252 hp ampharos-mega critless!
    12. Lol wth is rotom-w even to a mega ampharos trick room or naww (or naww) xD

    That's it for top 12! Now, I wonder how my time and effort making this post will be received. Also, I never specified a letter but !@!# letters!
    This guy should be a ranking equal or 1 category lower than whatever you guys rank Mega Heracross! Why? Because in trick room, Mega Ampharos is pretty much a special-type Mega Heracross the way I see things and due to its typing, does not fear talonflame crapless the way my favorite bss bug is! Outside of tr, the set I had in mind using Mega Amph still retains most of the bulk benefits though loses some but gains the utility of being able to outspeed raikou after 1 agility (252 spatt 212 speed 44 hp modest nature) and can do most of the things I said earlier anyway after setting up agility for when tr cannot be set up or agility proves to be better in a particular matchup! And hey, who the hell said you need to even setup ever?! It is all based on matchups anyway. Now I hear ppl saying "mega hera is good outside tr too" but I believe ppl who can understand what this post states in its entirety if not even more than what it says here (because seriously screw typing wth) will agree with me, that Mega Heracross and Amph are pretty much equal in terms their of strengths and weaknesses in the metagame. Yeah if you disagree I want a sheep to zap you when you try petting it next time then you'll learn!!!!!!

    And yeah I mentioned cress and tr a ton when nomming this mon. Cress is universal support, hardly a mon to consider not ranking amph A rank since tr is useful even for mons such as Thundurus-T depending on matchup (yall ppl who watched me prevent myself from being swept due to tr and a tr thundurus-t saving my butt would know!)

    Hope this post is met with positivity even though this is a sad world we live in!

    Also mega aggron b-? Why?
    This thing is outclassed by non mega defensive mons and as a tr mon, is a waste of a mega slot and very underwhelming offensively. NORMAL AGGRON is better than this thing! Mega Steelix can be useful and would be better with that ranking! I know it's defensive but again this is by no means a b- defensive mon! I don't see any1 using a defensive or offensive mega Aggron and doing well in this meta pretty much ever unless you aren't playing vs the meta!
    On that note, Mega Camerupt is d?!?!?! Mega Camerupt is useful and can be similar to Mega Amph but has a typing and movepool that doesnt give it much outside of strict trick room ownage. Mega Camel should be in the Bs! Like not strict strict decent bulk and unique typing along with ridiculous power allow it to hang some bodies before running rampant in tr.

    I also don't agree with Omastar being so low. While Omastar isn't nearly as good outside of rain, this thing is a ohko machine in rain and can usually manage even outside of rain vs frailer mons that can't hit hard enough to ohko it (and can rock a very mean shell smash set too). Should be higher than Mega Beedrill is all i'll say xD
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  18. Psynergy

    Psynergy Guaranteed Crits
    is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Nov 18, 2014
    I feel like there's been a ton of nominations we've put out by now but not a lot of discussion.

    I haven't used Bronzong in BSS so I can't comment too much on it, but I do like the merit it has as a niche pick. As awful as it sounds, Assault Vest really is the second most used item on it (but 9.6% usage tbf) so I can't trash that too hard. I think its defensive capabilities look nicer though, since it's a nice Rocky Helmet user that boasts an awesome set of resistances and abilities, and base offenses comparable to Ferrothorn so it can dent a few things with Gyro Ball. Even nicer is its physical movepool with Rock Slide and Earthquake to lure a few things and keep it from being a free switch-in for stuff. Lack of recovery, general passive nature and competition with stuff like Cresselia and Ferrothorn is rough, but its got some nice tools so I agree with a rank somewhere in mid/low C.

    I also like the look of Umbreon, I've definitely run into it a few times and it can definitely be scary on defensive teams for the STAB Foul Play + Swagger combo. Definitely doesn't like Blaziken and that's already dangerous for slow, fat teams to deal with, and it's easily forced out by Fairies (Swagger is still scary unless Sub though). I don't know if I like the idea of Heal Bell but that's just a personal opinion, though Umbreon is definitely a cool Pokemon and I'd second Umbreon for somewhere in B too. I'd at least use it over Mandibuzz personally, sorry PikachuCandy. :(
  19. DragonWhale

    DragonWhale It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor

    May 14, 2014
    Alright, before we move on with even more nominations let's solidify some of the stuff that have been nominated already in this thread, or else this thread is going to fall into an endless loop of only nominating with no changes done to the ranking itself.

    Feraligatr: B- to B
    Roserade: Unranked to C
    Mega Sceptile: Unranked to B/B+
    Bronzong: Unranked to C/C-
    Umbreon: Unranked to B
    Mega Ampharos: Unranked to ???
    Staraptor: Unranked to ???
    Aggron: Unranked to D
    Talonflame: A to A+
    Politoed: Unranked to ???
    Kabutops: Unranked to B
    Kingdra: Unranked to B
    Mega Aggron: B- to ???

    Please refrain from adding more nominations until we solidify a good number of the Pokemon in this list, thank you. After discussing with NOVED I would like us to prioritize a few nominations to start off so that we can focus the discussion in this thread and come to a consensus faster.

    Mega Ampharos

    I'll think about them and write my thoughts in a future post as well. What do you guys think about these four pokemon?
    Jibaku, Benzi, cant say and 2 others like this.
  20. teamjohto


    Apr 25, 2015
    Edit: lol jumped the gun and didn't know we were narrowing opinion to 4 in particular.

    Mega Ampharos:

    Ampharos has always been weird to me. He gains more weaknesses in exchange for Dragon STAB which is really underwhelming when you realize he's always going to go last when up against other dragons who can blow him up with dragon moves quicker.

    I'll have to pass on an opinion until I play around with him a bit more.


    B-/B sounds appropriate for Politoed. with most battlespot battles lasting an average of 8-10 turns, you can have rain for potentially the entire battle and support swift swimmers as he always has. Thundurus absolutely demolishes rain teams these days with Prankster T-wave for speed control, so B is the highest I can see it.


    B-/C+ sounds appropriate, considering he absolutely requires rain support to be viable. he just doesn't function independently enough for anything above B- in my opinion.


    B- feels better for the same reason stated above, but I wouldn't mind B either. without rain support it's hard for swift swim kingdra to find a break with 85 speed. I do think it's better than Kabutops cause it can have independence with the infamous critdra set, tough to setup and very gimmicky in nature, but when it gets pulled off it's amazing.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
    Flamedood and GateCreeper like this.
  21. Flamedood


    Dec 14, 2013
    I've already stated my thoughts on the rain trio, although I would be happy with b- for kingdra and kabutops, I think c+ might be a bit low as they have a pretty good match up against the top 12 (kabutops can viably run lum berry to get around thundurus). Politoed however I think deserves b+ for the reasons I stated before.

    As for mega ampharos, I don't think it is quite Mega Hera standard- Heracross has an excellent match up against bulky walls and stall (gliscor is pretty much the only Mon it can't beat one on one) has excellent coverage, multi hit moves that break sashes and sturdy and don't make contact, doesn't really fear status due to guts pre mega and although loves support via tr or tailwind, can easily function on its own. Heracross can also function without mega evolving on double mega teams with its access to great abilities such as moxie and guts. Ampharos on the other hand has an enormous mega opportunity cost needing to be run on dedicated tr teams, struggles to muscle through special walls such as chansey and porygon2, both stabs have very popular immunities in ground and fairy and it's weaknesses, dragon, ice and fairy are heavily stacked on teams due to other popular mons with similar weaknesses.
    Basically I see ampharos as an incredibly strong Mon under tr, but requires a lot of team support and opportunity cost so I would place it much lower than hera at b-/ c+
    Psynergy likes this.
  22. freekhoorn


    Jul 3, 2012
    Dragon stab is not only useful against dragon types but thanks to mega amphys insane special attack hits very hard neutral to types resisting or immune to electric like ground,grass and electric pokemon. It is also great against garchomp, i have had so many times that a garchomp switched in on an expected t-bolt from a water type like suicune but got koed by dragon pulse. Dragon type gives also a lot of resistances for common used types like water, grass and fire which makes switching in a lot easier.
  23. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Jul 9, 2014
    I'll give my two cents on the important mons here.

    Politoed, i think drizzle is a pretty amazing ability and rain is easily the second best weather, arguably the best(though i personally prefer sand). Rain turns a couple mons in big threats and shuts some good fire types down like zard y and heatran. And weather can really put you in control of the battle, if the matchup isnt too anti rain. I think B+ would be good.

    Kingdra, easily the best rain abuser, boosted hydros hurt like a bitch. Po=retty nice typing as well, not weak to electric or grass is pretty nice since I think it's definitely on par with m swampert at least, who is B right now. I think B is fine, or B- cause it's really dependent on rain.

    Kabutops, eh not as good as kingdra imo. But has nice benefits, priority, rock is a pretty good type offensively, superpower to get around talonflame. But no high base power move like kingdra's hydro pump. Probably B- i'd say.

    Mega amph, really needs tr to function, also doesn't have really good wallbreaking potential like heracross and mawile, both of which are good in and out of trick room. So i just think there isn't a whole lot of reason to run amph over other megas. I think B would be solid, maybe B-.

    I dont have much to say about the other nominations though, i'll leave that up for other people to discuss. Although I definitely agree with talonflame to A+ for obvious reasons.
    Flamedood likes this.
  24. 6tennis


    Aug 7, 2015
    On Mega Ampharos: I've been playing around with him, and he has a lot of tricks up his sleeve. A monstrous Special Attack stat, coupled with great overall bulk and a terrible Speed tier, make it super abusable under Trick Room, and possibly the best Special Trick Room attacker in this metagame. However, there are a lot of flaws that hold him back from being anywhere above B tier. First and foremost, if you want a high Special Attack stat, you're better off looking at Mega Gengar and Mega Alakazam, both of whom have higher Special Attack stats. Ampharos's coverage is subpar as well, and while its STABs are pretty neat (Electric is really important nowadays for killing Suicune and Dragons are everywhere), it doesn't have many other options, aside from Focus Blast and a Hidden Power (in testing, I opted for Ice). Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it absolutely needs Trick Room to even be remotely good. While being bulky, ultimately, it gets screwed over by commonplace threats (i.e. Kang and Chomp) outside of Trick Room, and even in Trick Room, it has some trouble with special walls.

    Speaking of Mega Alakazam, what do you guys think he should be ranked?
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
  25. ProjectTitan313


    Jan 30, 2012
    Mega Zammy, despite gargantuan Sp. Atk, has what I like to call "Alakazam Syndrome"; loosely defined as "great Sp. Atk; shitty base power, can't actually OHKO anything tougher than a Zoroark":
    - Huge Sp. Atk, but very low base power. Its common options of Psychic (90 -> 135), Focus Blast (120) Shadow Ball (80), Dazzling Gleam (80), HP Ice or Fire (60) mean than even when hitting super effective, a neutral Psychic is often better.
    - Neutral Psychic sucks.
    - Plenty of resists for its only STAB attack; much more than the few weaknesses. Unlike Dragon moves with wide neutral coverage, Outrage / DM have very high Base power to compensate.
    - No matter what it runs, it's not hard to wall it. Psychic + Ghost + Fighting is unresisted, yes; but unSTAB Shadow Ball, again, sucks, and Focus Blast is pretty much a coinflip chance at a KO. Good luck 2HKOing TTar with that accuracy.
    - Sp. Def actually lets it eat a Scald and not die, but a single sneeze on its Defense will hit like a chainsaw against a twig even with Intimidate support.
    - Hard to actually get onto the battlefield; you need a slow U-Turn or some other safe switching method.
    - "Oh shit, he has a Cresselia, Talonflame, Scizor, Thundurus, Mamoswine, Kangaskhan, Ferrothorn, Sableye, Gothitelle, Salamence, Flygon, or Metagross on his team"
    - Coverage consists of Psychic, Grass, Ghost, Fairy, and very shaky Fighting. And I guess Electric, if you count Shock Wave and Charge Beam as "Coverage". Can't have 3 Hidden Powers at the same time either.

    Can't break bulky mons like Suicune or Cress, can't OHKO medium-bulk things like 4/0 Mamoswine, can't OHKO things you'd use it to check like Ludicolo in Rain (nor can it switch in), and can't do ANYTHING if they have something with a priority move or Choice Scarf alive.
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 109-129 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 115-136 (69.6 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 142-168 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Glalie: 115-136 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ambipom: 135-159 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (75/66/66 bulk)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Alakazam in Rain: 121-142 (93 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 96-114 (61.9 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    4/0 GLALIE is too bulky. 80/80/80. Even with Stealth Rock we're not getting guarenteed KO's.

    Now, if your opponents entire team is at 50% and you've killed Priority/scarfmons, yes, they're fucked. If you get a Calm Mind on a forced switch (A terrakion without Sash intact for example), you actually have some potential:
    +1 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 163-193 (89 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    But without crazy support or a Sub, you're not going to get more than trading your team + mega slot for 50-70% of something's HP.
    I do admit though, 2HKO potential is huge and behind a Sub it's horrifying but without a free turn, yeahno you're going nowhere.

    Favorite pokemon is Alakazam, but I have accepted its fate long ago. Ranking... B-? It's not as bad as Wobby or Vivillion or I can't imagine it existing in A- or higher. It's about as faulted as Mega Sharpedo and Chandelure overall.
    Might change my mind after trying it out more since Fallout 4 won't be here till the 15th fucking Target.
    Flamedood likes this.

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