Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

[Omastar68]

Hmm. But that's with set up, and that can be hard to manage. I guess with screen support and what not...but idk. That kinda goes for every set up sweeper that they can do it with support, but that can't always be provided. And you can get to plus 6 even, strong priority still ends Volc. Talon especially, but anything with enough prior damage.

Anyways, we'll have to wait for someone like NOVED, people like that kno way more.

 

[NOVED]

Hmm. But that's with set up, and that can be hard to manage. I guess with screen support and what not...but idk. That kinda goes for every set up sweeper that they can do it with support, but that can't always be provided. And you can get to plus 6 even, strong priority ends Volc. Talon especially, but anything with enough weakening.

Anyways, we'll have to wait for someone like NOVED, people like that kno way more.

You flatter me :')

I think Volc is a good mon. Its really nice on certain teams, goes great with mence, works well on hippo teams. Its definitely easily checked/revenged by a decent amount of things but youre always gonna have teammates to get around them. QD is a really strong move and volc will run train on some teams for sure. That being said, its really not easy for volc to set up lol. Its low phys def makes it pretty easily threatened by a lot of stuff. I do thinks it certainly better than B. Not really sure if its A- material though. I think B+ is fine rn, but I would like to see more discussion. Im not totally opposed to A-.

 

[Omastar68]

I actually used to really like Volc, even brought one to X from B/W(2? I don't remember lol,) and from there to OR. I've used like a little mayb. That was a Bold one I tried to be bulky with.

Volc has pretty great synergy with Vaporeon, so mayb that could pass it defense? It's prolly worth considering the merits of non QD Volc as well. About 23% don't have it, so clearly some people don't feel good about trying to set up,nwhich makes a lot of sense. Some things can stay in just fine and sweep for a while once set up, but Volc doesn't always have that. Something like talon or Azu will still likely scare it out still, depending somewhat on sets and current health.

The most common item for non QD is Scarf, tho most non QD ones are something else. Quite a bit of variety there, main things are LO, Specs, and Hemet(?) All those seem to have merit, except mayb the helmet.

I'm not sure about Volc, and TBH rankings are quite arbitrary. There's a huge gap in viability between S mons and D ones obviously, but debating between small things like is this B+ or A-, should it be D or unranked, etc. is tough and not that accurate I don't think. Like you can move Volc up to A- or down to B, but either way it's not terribly great or completely awful.

Looking at Volcs moves I don't see anything that outstanding, at least not with its stat spread. Hurricane on a Volc for a rain team could be cool tho, as it deals with lots of stuff icky for rain like Ferro.

Anyways...I don't think I have Avery good grasp of meta, even now. I mean when I nom something people are like "eww no," and wen I say something should go down people are like "seems like it should stay where it is, or even move up." Kinda demoralizing but I think everyone's prolly right wen they shoot me down lol. Mayb once I finally get my act together and play on cart I'll have more credibility.

 

[Pearl]

My experience with Volcarona leads me into thinking that it's very unreliable in battle. It's the kind of Pokemon that you run among your 6 just so you can automatically force your opponent to run his Stealth Rock setter, Talonflame, Azumarill and/or Choice Scarf user (assuming it's something like Garchomp, which can revenge kill Volcarona effectively), which you can proceed to exploit with Volcarona's teammates (practical example: your opponent leads with Focus Sash Garchomp to get his Stealth Rock up right away and you run Mamoswine to kill it immediately). However, it's rarely going to do much by itself, considering how popular its best counters (Talonflame, Heatran, Chansey, Blaziken, Salamence) are. However, I'd still keep it in B+ due to its ability to sweep some oddball teams, the aforementioned mind games that you can play with it and its coverage options; guessing incorrectly between Hidden Power Ground, Ice or Giga Drain can be devastating in such a fast paced metagame.

I've played against bulky Rocky Helmet Volcarona once, by the way. It's a little bizarre, but works as an amazing check to Trick Room Cresselia / Porygon2 + Mega Mawile builds, while also being able to fish for burns with Flame Body against some of its common switch ins.

Now here's a nomination of my own: Lapras to either B or B+, leaning towards the latter due to bias. I just realized that it's missing in the rankings, but Lapras is easily one of my favorite Pokemon in this format. Here's its most (read: only) viable set:

Lapras @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Freeze-Dry
- Sheer Cold
- Ice Shard

The appeal behind Lapras is in its ability to trade kills with pretty much every top threat aside from Kangaskhan and Blaziken, while also working as one of the most solid Suicune checks and being a stellar stall breaker too, courtesy of its access to Sheer Cold, which can single handily decide a game even against faster match ups. Ice Shard allows it to get past Focus Sash leads and pick up kills on weakened targets like Mega Salamence after it hits a Rocky Helmet Pokemon with Double Edge. Freeze-Dry also helps Lapras differentiating itself from other fat Water-type Pokemon, and I believe its niche needs no introduction. I don't know if anyone else has experience with this Pokemon, but I urge you all to give it a shot.

 

[Omastar68]

I ought to try Lapras. That's really it's only viable set? Investment looks wonky-would a Quiet nature for a stronger Ice Shard be good or no?

I definitely agree on some ranking. Lapras seems pretty good. Not sure it should really be in the Bs tho. Sheer Cold only breaks a sub, and with the low hit rate that makes Lapras weak to mons with fat subs. Well, can't think of much else that's really bad for it, so mayb B+ is fine lol. Definitely at least C+

 

[Taliheim]

I've only played this tier for like four days lol so take stuff I say with a grain of salt for now, but I noticed something interesting when I was looking through the usage stats:

Only 65% of gards were mega, while regular Gardevoir remains unranked. I can see scarf gard being a legitimate and viable Pokemon that is usable outside of its rather large surprise factor (hits 250 speed), and Healing Wish is a cool support option it can use as a filler move. The metagame is severely lacking in fast fairies bar whimsicott, which isn't exactly used for its offensive prowess, and being able to catch stuff like non-roseli chomp off guard on an EQ can help a lot. Trace shenanigans become a bigger thing too, like tracing Speed Boost to keep up with blaz/m-blaz or Shadow Tag to force the opp's hand after you mysteriously outspeed the opp's m-gar (252 psychic has a 62% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after rocks), or reflecting back intimidate on mence, to name a few.

 

[Omastar68]

I've only played this tier for like four days lol so take stuff I say with a grain of salt for now, but I noticed something interesting when I was looking through the usage stats:

Only 65% of gards were mega, while regular Gardevoir remains unranked. I can see scarf gard being a legitimate and viable Pokemon that is usable outside of its rather large surprise factor (hits 250 speed, and said surprise factor is relatively large), and Healing Wish is a cool support option it can use as a filler move. The metagame is severely lacking in fast fairies bar whimsicott, which isn't exactly used for its offensive prowess, and being able to catch stuff like non-roseli chomp off guard on an EQ can help a lot. Trace shenanigans become a bigger thing too, like tracing Speed Boost to keep up with blaz/m-blaz or Shadow Tag to force the opp's hand after you mysteriously outspeed the opp's m-gar (252 psychic has a 62% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after rocks), or reflecting back intimidate on mence, to name a few.

O hi! Healing Wish is really cool and I always want a move like that on any team so that immediately made me think you're going somewhere with this. Before that I was gonna say ScarfGarde was outclassed by Togekiss, but with it maybe not. Garde has Trick, and IMO any scarf mom ought to run that. Couple other nice offensive moves like Focus Blast, T-Bolt, Shadow Ball, and Ofc HP. Memento could also work.

c. That said base 80s aren't quite in the best place for Scarf, needing +Spe to outspeed stuff like Gengar. That hurts power.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir: 150-176 (98 - 115%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Garde typically dies to Gengar, but with just a little bulk(Spe I run on Toge with a Modest nature for max Spe Serp and below. You may wanna go up to at least Greninja, but that gives Gengar an even bettr chance) it has a decent chance to live, sorta. Might be better to just go Timid. If you're interested in using this set you should run some calcs.

I think the same rank as Togekiss makes sense, which is B-.

 

[jroxas]

Now here's a nomination of my own: Lapras to either B or B+, leaning towards the latter due to bias. I just realized that it's missing in the rankings, but Lapras is easily one of my favorite Pokemon in this format. Here's its most (read: only) viable set:

Lapras @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 28 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Freeze-Dry
- Sheer Cold
- Ice Shard

The appeal behind Lapras is in its ability to trade kills with pretty much every top threat aside from Kangaskhan and Blaziken, while also working as one of the most solid Suicune checks and being a stellar stall breaker too, courtesy of its access to Sheer Cold, which can single handily decide a game even against faster match ups. Ice Shard allows it to get past Focus Sash leads and pick up kills on weakened targets like Mega Salamence after it hits a Rocky Helmet Pokemon with Double Edge. Freeze-Dry also helps Lapras differentiating itself from other fat Water-type Pokemon, and I believe its niche needs no introduction. I don't know if anyone else has experience with this Pokemon, but I urge you all to give it a shot.

I agree, Lapras should be ranked. I've played with similar builds on some of my Mawile teams with lots of speed control and it's more than pulled its weight. I ran Ice Beam over Ice Shard for a more reliable STAB than Freeze-Dry, but I guess the amount of speed control on the teammates I used afforded that luxury.

I think B- or maybe B is the most appropriate ranking. It's weak to a lot of extremely common stuff and there's a substantial glut of Water-type competition.

That said: a water-type with a favorable Suicune matchup might be a narrow niche, but a very strong one on the teams that want it.

 

[Anirav]

Anyways...I don't think I have Avery good grasp of meta, even now. I mean when I nom something people are like "eww no," and wen I say something should go down people are like "seems like it should stay where it is, or even move up." Kinda demoralizing but I think everyone's prolly right wen they shoot me down lol. Mayb once I finally get my act together and play on cart I'll have more credibility.

Oma look I understand you're feeling bad and I'm sorry if I personally ever made you feel "unwelcome" but the thing is we don't correct you to bring you down. All of us really want to help you and just want the battle spot rankings to be as accurate as possible. As for your nominations, the only way people will take you seriously is if you have PROOF. Proof doesn't mean random showdown replays against users in the 1300s with a team you abandon like in 2 days. Proof is on-cart battles and for a mon like drifblim to be even considered, you need to have replays against people in the 1600s. Again, not trying to bring you down. Just want to help you move in the right direction from now on :).

 

[Omastar68]

Oma look I understand you're feeling bad and I'm sorry if I personally ever made you feel "unwelcome" but the thing is we don't correct you to bring you down. All of us really want to help you and just want the battle spot rankings to be as accurate as possible. As for your nominations, the only way people will take you seriously is if you have PROOF. Proof doesn't mean random showdown replays against users in the 1300s with a team you abandon like in 2 days. Proof is on-cart battles and for a mon like drifblim to be even considered, you need to have replays against people in the 1600s. Again, not trying to bring you down. Just want to help you move in the right direction from now on :).

No that's fine, thanks.

But, umm, not everyone posts cart replays with 1600+ people. I mean I'll try to get sone(hopefully I can actually GET to 1600+ on cart lol, tho I guess you do get matched with higher people sometimes. And I guess a battle against a lower person with a really good team works too.)

 

[Anirav]

Well tbf not everyone nominates drifblim and AV regice

 

[Omastar68]

XD

I've done others but I see your point lol

 

[PumpedAaron]

So, I think its about time I nominated Machamp, innit? I'd probably place him around the same rank as Conkeldurr, give or take. Check out this Replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-368987615 waifu sweep

This battle was a captivating Machamp sweep, but it was also a mildly fiery debate starter. After posting it on PS chat, a few members, and even a couple staff commented on how sub-optimal Guts Machamp is, because it would be outclassed by Conkeldurr. Reasons were given, such as Conkeldurr's higher HP, Attack, Defense, and his access to solid STAB moves in Drain Punch and Mach Punch. But the thing is, Conkeldurr statistically has Guts far more often than Machamp has Guts. And since many people assume any given Machamp simply has No Guard, they go about burning it, paralyzing it, trying to wall it with somewhat passive mons like Cress, Ferro, and Sabl, offering Machamp plenty of time to hit the gym.

If Machamp has these strong advantages, as well as some raw stat benefits against Conkeldurr, in Sp. Atk, Sp. Def, and Speed, then that's certainly something to give Machamp viability. Dynamic Punch niche is still always there if you plan on maximizing luck factors with things like Klefki and Thundurus!

 

[Omastar68]

So, I think its about time I nominated Machamp, innit? I'd probably place him around the same rank as Conkeldurr, give or take. Check out this Replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-368987615 waifu sweep

This battle was a captivating Machamp sweep, but it was also a mildly fiery debate starter. After posting it on PS chat, a few members, and even a couple staff commented on how sub-optimal Guts Machamp is, because it would be outclassed by Conkeldurr. Reasons were given, such as Conkeldurr's higher HP, Attack, Defense, and his access to solid STAB moves in Drain Punch and Mach Punch. But the thing is, Conkeldurr statistically has Guts far more often than Machamp has Guts. And since many people assume any given Machamp simply has No Guard, they go about burning it, paralyzing it, trying to wall it with somewhat passive mons like Cress, Ferro, and Sabl, offering Machamp plenty of time to hit the gym.

If Machamp has these strong advantages, as well as some raw stat benefits against Conkeldurr, in Sp. Atk, Sp. Def, and Speed, then that's certainly something to give Machamp viability. Dynamic Punch niche is still always there if you plan on maximizing luck factors with things like Klefki and Thundurus!

Kinda funny, I actually nommed Machamp for I think C+ rank a while back. That person was dumb to use t-wave with Cress when it had Psychic. Machamp is already slower, guess he didn't kno about Guts.

Which is kind of your point, that the surprise value of Guts on Champ is really good. I agree, if it were a Conk in that video he never would've t-wave(I imagine.) Also, while Champ can step on Conk's territory with Guts, Conk can't reasonably do the same with Dynamichpunch, bar mayb Gravity support.

I agree with Champ being ranked. Prolly close to Conk since theyre so similar. Higher Spe, Encore, and a few other things mostly make up for its shortcomings wen compared to Conk.

 

[GateCreeper]

So, I think its about time I nominated Machamp, innit? I'd probably place him around the same rank as Conkeldurr, give or take. Check out this Replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-368987615 waifu sweep

This battle was a captivating Machamp sweep, but it was also a mildly fiery debate starter. After posting it on PS chat, a few members, and even a couple staff commented on how sub-optimal Guts Machamp is, because it would be outclassed by Conkeldurr. Reasons were given, such as Conkeldurr's higher HP, Attack, Defense, and his access to solid STAB moves in Drain Punch and Mach Punch. But the thing is, Conkeldurr statistically has Guts far more often than Machamp has Guts. And since many people assume any given Machamp simply has No Guard, they go about burning it, paralyzing it, trying to wall it with somewhat passive mons like Cress, Ferro, and Sabl, offering Machamp plenty of time to hit the gym.

If Machamp has these strong advantages, as well as some raw stat benefits against Conkeldurr, in Sp. Atk, Sp. Def, and Speed, then that's certainly something to give Machamp viability. Dynamic Punch niche is still always there if you plan on maximizing luck factors with things like Klefki and Thundurus!

You're overrating Machamp a little too much. Sure, many people may assume Machamp might have No Guard and may be thrown off when you're running Guts instead, but smart players (unlike the one in the replay you posted, your opponent didn't really know what he was doing) will scout for Guts before they even try to give it a bad status. Conkeldurr may have the disadvantage in Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed, but those benefits aren't really notable when Machamp's Special Attack is still unusable, Conkeldurr has access to a recovery move in Drain Punch to compensate for its lower Special bulk, and the fact that 55 Speed is still pretty slow while Conkeldurr Mach Punch to help with his speed problems, while Machamp only has Bullet Punch.

Machamp may not be completely outclassed by Conkeldurr, but the points given by you don't really justify a solid reason to use Machamp over Conkeldurr or even Heracross as a Guts user. As a bulky Guts user Conkeldurr is far more reliable to use due to its access to recovery and higher physical bulk. As an offensive Guts user you're better off using Heracross with its higher speed and access to two strong STABs.

I believe Machamp should be ranked lower than Conkeldurr. C+ or B- is where I'd place it, just because No Guard Dynamic Punch is really annoying lol

 

[PumpedAaron]

Kinda funny, I actually nommed Machamp for I think C+ rank a while back. That person was dumb to use t-wave with Cress when it had Psychic. Machamp is already slower, guess he didn't kno about Guts.

Which is kind of your point, that the surprise value of Guts on Champ is really good. I agree, if it were a Conk in that video he never would've t-wave(I imagine.) Also, while Champ can step on Conk's territory with Guts, Conk can't reasonably do the same with Dynamichpunch, bar mayb Gravity support.

I agree with Champ being ranked. Prolly close to Conk since theyre so similar. Higher Spe, Encore, and a few other things mostly make up for its shortcomings wen compared to Conk.

Thank you, Omastar68 ! Yes, as I've mentioned, Guts is much easier to predict on a Conkeldurr than a Machamp, so Machamp getting status'd is a prety common sight, especially if they expect to exploit No Guard.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Thank you, Omastar68 ! Yes, as I've mentioned, Guts is much easier to predict on a Conkeldurr than a Machamp, so Machamp getting status'd is a prety common sight, especially if they expect to exploit No Guard.

Conk doesn't really care whether or not its opponent can predict it having Guts. BSS has a lot of Pokemon that tends to inflict status. It's supposed to act as a status absorber and it can be a very good switch-in on incoming things like Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, and Toxic. That's why Guts is used more often.

 

[PumpedAaron]

You're overrating Machamp a little too much. Sure, many people may assume Machamp might have No Guard and may be thrown off when you're running Guts instead, but smart players (unlike the one in the replay you posted, your opponent didn't really know what he was doing) will scout for Guts before they even try to give it a bad status. Conkeldurr may have the disadvantage in Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed, but those benefits aren't really notable when Machamp's Special Attack is still unusable, Conkeldurr has access to a recovery move in Drain Punch to compensate for its lower Special bulk, and the fact that 55 Speed is still pretty slow while Conkeldurr Mach Punch to help with his speed problems, while Machamp only has Bullet Punch.

Machamp may not be completely outclassed by Conkeldurr, but the points given by you don't really justify a solid reason to use Machamp over Conkeldurr or even Heracross as a Guts user. As a bulky Guts user Conkeldurr is far more reliable to use due to its access to recovery and higher physical bulk. As an offensive Guts user you're better off using Heracross with its higher speed and access to two strong STABs.

I believe Machamp should be ranked lower than Conkeldurr. C+ or B- is where I'd place it, just because No Guard Dynamic Punch is really annoying lol

Heracross, huh? You're actually the first person so far to argue for Heracross instead of Machamp. I personally hadn't made that comparison...

I believe Machamp has a movepool advantage between the three most notably, doesn't he? That's part of what makes him more versatile compared to Conkeldurr and Heracross. What elemental punches does Heracross get? There's also a more severe flying weakness, and a fire weakness to be had with Heracross, lack of Rock resist, things like that.

 

[GateCreeper]

Heracross, huh? You're actually the first person so far to argue for Heracross instead of Machamp. I personally hadn't made that comparison...

I believe Machamp has a movepool advantage between the three most notably, doesn't he? That's part of what makes him more versatile compared to Conkeldurr and Heracross. What elemental punches does Heracross get? There's also a more severe flying weakness, and a fire weakness to be had with Heracross, lack of Rock resist, things like that.

Heracross has great coverage even without the elemental punches. None of the elemental punches would even offer Heracross anything beneficial aside from Ice Punch. Nothing resists Megahorn / Close Combat / Stone Edge / Knock Off except for Toxicroak which is rarely seen in this format.

Yes, it does have its added weaknesses, but the bug typing also offers a grass and ground (!!) resistance. I don't even think there are any Flying or Fire types that Machamp can handle that Heracross cannot. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[PumpedAaron]

Heracross has great coverage even without the elemental punches. None of the elemental punches would even offer Heracross anything beneficial aside from Ice Punch. Nothing resists Megahorn / Close Combat / Stone Edge / Knock Off except for Toxicroak which is rarely seen in this format.

Yes, it does have its added weaknesses, but the bug typing also offers a grass and ground (!!) resistance. I don't even think there are any Flying or Fire types that Machamp can handle that Heracross cannot. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for Heracross' great coverage, yes, those 4 moves all together can't be resisted by much besides Toxicroak, but what about a more offensive offer? What about OHKO on Landorus, Garchomp, and, with some speed control, Salamence? That would bring you back to Conkeldurr at least, wouldn't it? And with single moves that offer more type effectiveness by themselves, you have more room for setup and disruption moves. As for Fire types, I can easily say Machamp fairs better against Rotom-H without the need for Assult Vest. Blaziken and Charizard can knock them out both pretty evenly, but Charizard less so, if they decide to act passive against Machamp. But as for flying types... yes, you have a point. I believe flying types tend to have a decisive advantage against fighting types in a simply brutal fashion... nearly all flying moves come off of STAB, not coverage. One expection is Thundurus, who rarely ever uses flying attacks, despite being a flying Pokemon. How well does Heracross take Thunderbolt? I would assume its OK either way, huh?

I personally don't feel a strong need for grass and ground resist, but that's probably because I use Talonflame a lot.

 

[Omastar68]

Well, I looked at their moves again,Mand the only things I see not mentioned but mayb somewhat useful Champ has Conk doesn't are Tickle and Light a screen. Pretty weird, but o well.

I've though about it, and I think the argument Guts Champ is good because peeple dont expect Guts is partially undermined by the fact that peeple DO expect Guts on Conk, so it can feasibly use Iron Fist to boost most of the move s it uses while prolly not getting statused.

O, noticed one little thing. Machamp learns Revenge while Conk doesn't. It's an ok move I think, 120 BP if the opponent hurts you before you use it, which is a likely enough scenario with low Spe. Then you don't have to eat defense drops.

I'd say they're pretty evenly matched, kinda like Arcanine and Entei which were discussed a while ago. Champ has significantly worse physical bulk, but Conk still can't take plenty of physical attackers anyways. Champ has slightly better special bulk assuming both or neither are AV, and that Spe at least helps for base 50s and stuff.

 

[GateCreeper]

As for Heracross' great coverage, yes, those 4 moves all together can't be resisted by much besides Toxicroak, but what about a more offensive offer? What about OHKO on Landorus, Garchomp, and, with some speed control, Salamence? That would bring you back to Conkeldurr at least, wouldn't it? And with single moves that offer more type effectiveness by themselves, you have more room for setup and disruption moves. As for Fire types, I can easily say Machamp fairs better against Rotom-H without the need for Assult Vest. Blaziken and Charizard can knock them out both pretty evenly, but Charizard less so, if they decide to act passive against Machamp. But as for flying types... yes, you have a point. I believe flying types tend to have a decisive advantage against fighting types in a simply brutal fashion... nearly all flying moves come off of STAB, not coverage. One expection is Thundurus, who rarely ever uses flying attacks, despite being a flying Pokemon. How well does Heracross take Thunderbolt? I would assume its OK either way, huh?

I personally don't feel a strong need for grass and ground resist, but that's probably because I use Talonflame a lot.

Let me set this straight:

The role of a Guts user like Conkeldurr is to act like a status absorber and switch into incoming WoWs, T-Waves, and Toxic, like Misaka Mikoto mentioned earlier. The surprise factor doesn't really matter here because you'll be switching into a status move anyways, revealing that you have Guts. Conkeldurr is a more bulky, offense alternative to this while Heracross is a speedier alternative. Machamp is just sort of in the middle. It's not as bulky as Conkeldurr or as fast as Heracross. Machamp pales in comparison to the two because it doesn't really have much in its favor aside from a little more special bulk and speed (both of which aren't really that notable imo). When deciding on a status absorber on my team, Conkeldurr and Heracross (to a lesser extent) come to mind. There isn't a certain niche that Machamp fills that is very noteworthy, so I wouldn't even consider it as a status absorber and would just spam Dynamic Punch with No Guard if I ever considered using the mon itself.

 

[PumpedAaron]

Well, I looked at their moves again,Mand the only things I see not mentioned but mayb somewhat useful Champ has Conk doesn't are Tickle and Light a screen. Pretty weird, but o well.

I've though about it, and I think the argument Guts Champ is good because peeple dont expect Guts is partially undermined by the fact that peeple DO expect Guts on Conk, so it can feasibly use Iron Fist to boost most of the move s it uses while prolly not getting statused.

O, noticed one little thing. Machamp learns Revenge while Conk doesn't. It's an ok move I think, 120 BP if the opponent hurts you before you use it, which is a likely enough scenario with low Spe. Then you don't have to eat defense drops.

I'd say they're pretty evenly matched, kinda like Arcanine and Entei which were discussed a while ago. Champ has significantly worse physical bulk, but Conk still can't take plenty of physical attackers anyways. Champ has slightly better special bulk assuming both or neither are AV, and that Spe at least helps for base 50s and stuff.

Haha, yeah, Tickle, Encore, Light Screen, might as well through in Attract while we're at it n_n. Those options are very offiside and niche, they have good potential, but would require a more specialized support EV spread, I guess? You'd lose out on Machamp's inherent offense, but its there I guess! I personally recommend against it unless you have a really dangerous plan in mind that would require you to use it.

Let me set this straight:

The role of a Guts user like Conkeldurr is to act like a status absorber and switch into incoming WoWs, T-Waves, and Toxic, like Misaka Mikoto mentioned earlier. The surprise factor doesn't really matter here because you'll be switching into a status move anyways, revealing that you have Guts. Conkeldurr is a more bulky, offense alternative to this while Heracross is a speedier alternative. Machamp is just sort of in the middle. It's not as bulky as Conkeldurr or as fast as Heracross. Machamp pales in comparison to the two because it doesn't really have much in its favor aside from a little more special bulk and speed (both of which aren't really that notable imo). When deciding on a status absorber on my team, Conkeldurr and Heracross (to a lesser extent) come to mind. There isn't a certain niche that Machamp fills that is very noteworthy, so I wouldn't even consider it as a status absorber and would just spam Dynamic Punch with No Guard if I ever considered using the mon itself.

Ah yes, so you typically switch into Conkeldurr to absorb status, right? Well if you think about it, Machamp has a chance to get free set up or attack if you leave him in, rather than strictly as a status -switch in-. I don't think you exclusively think of Conkeldurr as a status absorber, do you? Strong Pokemon tend to fill multiple roles at once. Actually, that idea is what makes Conkeldurr pretty appealing in a certain sense, but it has healing, priority, and status-absorbing. If Machamp really is perceived as offering less compared to Conkeldurr, using Machamp instead could make your opponent fall into traps more easily, I bet.

Also, have you gone over to the Battlespot Q & A thread today? ProjectTitan313 gives a good comparison between the two.

_______________
triple post again and I'll infract you

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Ah yes, so you typically switch into Conkeldurr to absorb status, right? Well if you think about it, Machamp has a chance to get free set up or attack if you leave him in, rather than strictly as a status -switch in-. I don't think you exclusively think of Conkeldurr as a status absorber, do you? Strong Pokemon tend to fill multiple roles at once. Actually, that idea is what makes Conkeldurr pretty appealing in a certain sense, but it has healing, priority, and status-absorbing. If Machamp really is perceived as offering less compared to Conkeldurr, using Machamp instead could make your opponent fall into traps more easily, I bet.

It is a status absorber and it uses Guts to its advantage as a shield for its teammates and I don't think you've read my comment last page. Bulk Up Machamp isn't a common move in BSS either as well.

"Get a free set up or attack if you leave him in." Well, of course Machamp will be able to attack but I don't really see any room for it to set up besides the opponent switching out. and you're well aware how terrible its speed is. Switching in as a status absorber makes more sense because Guts is activated because you're getting the benefit off it.

 

[NOVED]

With the whole surprise factor argument, the cons of a pokemon are almost never outweighed by any kind of surprise factor. If surprise factor were actually a thing that made pokemon viable, you would see WAY more diversity in the top teams, but that isn't the case. (not that there isn't a good amount of diversity in the meta but you know what i mean)

A bit more offense and a bit of a surprise factor certainly does not put Machamp on par with Conkeldurr, conk does way too many things better than it for champ to even come close.

Consistency > surprise value


Also, I think Machamp is probably around B- or B, but that's based solely on No Guard sets. No Guard sets are actually pretty solid, if we're discussing machamp's viability that should be the set you talk about, not guts. If we could put a full stop to discussion of Guts machamp that'd be great.