Gen 6 Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

BulkyChomp and Mega Altaria rape both of them; Arcanine's combination of Intimidate + WoW + recovery makes it hands-down the best physical crippler in the game. Example:
-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 138-164 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Arcanine's bulkier on the physical side, I've spent two posts already proving this. Not even using a defensive set on Arcanine to boot.

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 172-203 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 179-213 (80.6 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 79-94 (43.6 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 93-109 (51.3 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hmm actually that's my bad, I totally forgot about intimidate. You are definitely right about arcanine being bulkier as it has access to intimidate but what I was trying to say is that there are other mons who do the same thing arcanine does but they do it better. Also, if you saw last seasons top teams(2000+) quite a few had entei but not a single one had arcanine. See the problem with arcanine is that it can either be defensive or offensive but entei with AV(most common item according to pgl) can take quite a few special hits and answer back with strong sacred fires which have a 50 percent chance to burn. I have nothing against arcanine but I feel entei isn't getting the credit it deserves.
 
Really in-depth. Good job. Also want to mention Arcanine's ability is way better. Enter is stuck using Pressure, and even if it's HA Flash Fire was available, Intimidate is still better. I'd also say Snarl + Intimidate makes Arcanine the better AV user. Enter is still pretty good AV w/ SS, but it isn't a guaranteed burn(actually less than 50% cause you have a 5% chance to miss,) and it won't work if the opponent is already statused. Enter has slightly higher speed, but both it and Arcanine tend to run neutral Spe natures anyways, and the only thing 4 speed base 100s outrun that 4 Spe base 95s don't is max speed base 110s after a speed drop. The only other importaint(ish) difference between the two is that Entei gets Reflect. Oh, and it can set up Rain Dance xD(I actually used a Scolipede to set up sun a really long time ago, lol)
 
Foul Play is pretty trash against 1) burned opponents, 2) Special attackers, 3) Fighting/Fairy/Dark types. Considering Sableye is burning, luring Special attackers, and Fairy types, that's all pretty damning.
Recover has better PP, and is overall better than Morning Sun; I do not argue this :P
No one's going to spam SD when burned, in front of Sableye.
Arcanine's Flamethrower/etc is bad against resists, Flash Fire, and stupidly bulky special mons like cress. If they ignore the burn chopping off 1/4th HP every other turn, well, they're going to be pummeled to death pretty quick by either mon.
Hey, buddy I think you don't understand how foul play works. Burnt opponent does not reduce foul play damage

And yeah, I pretty often see people trying to stack SD in order to get enough attack to OHKO.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-312633043

"Foul play is bad against resisted"

Arcanine has Bulldoze and Iron Head too. :P

BulkyChomp and Mega Altaria rape both of them; Arcanine's combination of Intimidate + WoW + recovery makes it hands-down the best physical crippler in the game. Example:
-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 138-164 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 198-234 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Arcanine, despite lower stats, is eating STAB SE Earthquakes just fine. And that's ScarfChomp, not the much-weaker TankChomp. WoW is an 85% burn rate (accuracy), over Sacred Fire's 50% (if it hits). Entei has to hit Garchomp on a switchin; or Chompy just outruns and smashes it. Arcanine can WoW it on the switchin - the same way Entei is tossing Sacred Fire - with an even higher Burn rate. Or, Arcanine can come in after Chompy KO's something, Intimidate it, and click WoW. Garchomp can't even 2HKO with Outrage unless it's already got an SD boost or a Choice Band. Entei's even more fucked in the same cases, btw.

Basically, what I'm saying is, when it comes to a BULKY Fire type, nothing really compares to Arcanine. Heatran is the next closest thing.
Offensively, Entei has Stone Edge and Sacred Fire; Arcanine has everything else. Entei's superior stats make it better at offense, imo, unless you really need Close Combat's coverage; in which case, use Blaziken.
You completely messed up thing. Mega altaria and tankchomp was supposed to be answer to offensive arcaine. No one with right mind switch garchomp in sure whisp. And Entei can burn tankchomp on switchin and switch back, what offensive arcaine can't really do.

252 SpA Arcanine Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 79-94 (43.6 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Entei Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 75-88 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Same on the special side; they actually have an identical movepool here. Entei has CM and Eruption, but not really enough recovery to justify either one.
That;s completly pointless, because Mkanga blows both of them before they even deal second hit. EQ or sucker punch ain't rare.
 
Hey, buddy I think you don't understand how foul play works. Burnt opponent does not reduce foul play damage

And yeah, I pretty often see people trying to stack SD in order to get enough attack to OHKO.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-312633043

"Foul play is bad against resisted"

I think he meant foul play is bad against dark resisting pokemon who don't have any attack boosts. In your replay, obviously foul play will hit hard since the bisharp is at +4. Also, even with +6 attack foul play couldn't ko the azumarill after the belly drum so he isn't wrong about foul play being bad against resisted.
 
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I think he meant foul play is bad against dark resisting pokemon who don't have any attack boosts. In your replay, obviously foul play will hit hard since the bisharp is at +4. Also, even with +6 attack foul play couldn't ko the azumarill after the belly drum so he isn't wrong about foul play being bad against resisted.
Yeah but psychical fairy are predicting sableye to switch out and often going for set up because that's free.

Also every other type is likely to go for set up, because they want to cross line of OHKO sableye. Otherwise that's free burn. In conclusion foul play is amazing against psyhical attackers because if they don't go for set up they get free burn and recovery stall and if they go for set up they get smashed by foul play, or at least moved to the range of revenge kill by priority.

Only one psychical attacker who can reliably counter this is blaziken, because he cannot be burn, and foul play deals little dmg.

Also Azumarill, especialy with investment in HP (and that definitely was) is tanky as hell.
 
I don't think we need to compare Arcanine and Mega Sableye-the two can even be run together, since Arcanine resists Sab's sole weakness.

-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Arcanine: 123-147 (74.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clearly Arcanine is living a hit from Kanga, w/ investment you could even live Adamant Kang's EQ. Entei can't do that, and even if it could it's not as likely to burn. Plus, Arcanine has Close Combat, which I'm pretty sure KOs Kanga-if not outright then w/ an Extremespeed the next turn. Another interesting thing I thought of is Slowbro. Arcanine can hit for w/ Snarl to lowe its SpA, while also doing some damage. Entei can't do anything to Slowbro. Even 252+ Atk Stone Edge is probably only a 3HKO(meaning it'll never kill cause Slack Off,) and you can't crit mega bro and have a chance to miss.

I think they're about equally good overall.


I was thinking Muk could be a really good Pokemon. Its good special bulk and movepool, combined w/ Poison Touch and ChestoRest, make me think it could be a really good user of Curse.

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 94-112 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 126-148 (59.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Muk Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Not too bad vs Jolly Kang if it's got at least one Curse up. If it has two, Kang becomes set-up bait.
+2 252+ Atk Muk Shadow Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 156-184 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Shadow Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 118-140 (86.7 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 47-56 (22.1 - 26.4%) -- 13.6% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 84-100 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 Shadow Punch calc is disappointing, but you can always opt for EQ instead. Mega Gengar does little damage, so it's set up bait too.
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 144-170 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 256-304 (139.1 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +3 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 86-104 (40.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Muk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not too bad against Chomp, considering the crap match up. Just have a Curse up and Ice Punch. Ofc, I'm not sure Ice Punch is a good move(you get two coverage moves alongside Curse and Rest.)
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 153-181 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 102-121 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 76-91 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Pretty good defensive calcs vs CB Talon, but you need Rock Slide or lots of boosts to do good damage back.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 165-195 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Blaziken: 192-228 (123.8 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Good against Blaziken assuming you run EQ/are boosted.

That's the main stuff. As you can see, Muk does quite well vs a lot of stuff-provided it has the right coverage move. Muk can only afford to run two coverage moves since Curse and Rest are required, and this means it'll always get beat by a couple inns based on what those moves are. Shadow Punch and Brick Break mean trouble vs Talon, Chomp, and Blaziken. Ice Punch and Rock Slide means you're bad vs Blaziken, and not as good vs Gengar. Earthquake and Ice Punch means you have trouble w/ Talon and Rotom-W(though that one's sorta a problem no matter what. I'd say Muk would fit in w/ the C crowd-maybe C-. It's not a bad Pokemon, w/ stats reminiscent of Snorlax w/ an arguably better ability for a Curse set(Poison Touch lets you do more to stuff that can take your coverage moves, though it's only a 30% chance to inflict regular poison status.)

EDIT: noticed Azelf isn't on here(none of the pixies are for that matter.) That's gotta be a solid C+ mon at minimum, and Uxie is probably a C w/ Mesprit being a D at best(isn't Mesprit supposed to be their leader or something?)
 
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Hey, buddy I think you don't understand how foul play works. Burnt opponent does not reduce foul play damage

And yeah, I pretty often see people trying to stack SD in order to get enough attack to OHKO.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-312633043

"Foul play is bad against resisted"
If the guy brings nothing but 3 physical mons, and he does nothing but buff his attack, in the face of something spamming WoW and STAB Foul Play, I'm thinking... the guy was kind of an idiot tbh. Don't get me wrong, STAB Foul Play kills a lot of funny shit (I ran it on Mandibuzz) but as soon as you see <insert special attacker with shitastic attack here> it's like throwing a baseball at a castle. Snarl and Swagger are fun to run with it for this reason imo.

You completely messed up thing. Mega altaria and tankchomp was supposed to be answer to offensive arcaine. No one with right mind switch garchomp in sure whisp. And Entei can burn tankchomp on switchin and switch back, what offensive arcaine can't really do.
That's the thing with Arcanine. In team preview, you don't know what set it is. You don't know whether it's offensive, bulky, physical, or special. A lot like Mega Altaria, tbh. You guess that it's probably bulky, and Special/Physical/mixed is still in the air. Entei and Arcanine both can burn on the switchin... but what's stopping an offensive Arcanine from running WoW? o.0

That;s completly pointless, because Mkanga blows both of them before they even deal second hit. EQ or sucker punch ain't rare.
Oh it wasn't to say they could beat Khan (though tbh, Arcanine probably does); I just used that in the calc to show power difference. Could be a Mew / Hippowdon / Cresselia / anything really :P

I was thinking Muk could be a really good Pokemon. Its good special bulk and movepool, combined w/ Poison Touch and ChestoRest, make me think it could be a really good user of Curse.

EDIT: noticed Azelf isn't on here(none of the pixies are for that matter.) That's gotta be a solid C+ mon at minimum, and Uxie is probably a C w/ Mesprit being a D at best(isn't Mesprit supposed to be their leader or something?)
Muk and Pixies I'll get to later, I adore all four coincidentally.
 
I don't think we need to compare Arcanine and Mega Sableye-the two can even be run together, since Arcanine resists Sab's sole weakness.

-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0+ Def Arcanine: 123-147 (74.5 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clearly Arcanine is living a hit from Kanga, w/ investment you could even live Adamant Kang's EQ. Entei can't do that, and even if it could it's not as likely to burn. Plus, Arcanine has Close Combat, which I'm pretty sure KOs Kanga-if not outright then w/ an Extremespeed the next turn. Another interesting thing I thought of is Slowbro. Arcanine can hit for w/ Snarl to lowe its SpA, while also doing some damage. Entei can't do anything to Slowbro. Even 252+ Atk Stone Edge is probably only a 3HKO(meaning it'll never kill cause Slack Off,) and you can't crit mega bro and have a chance to miss.

I think they're about equally good overall.


I was thinking Muk could be a really good Pokemon. Its good special bulk and movepool, combined w/ Poison Touch and ChestoRest, make me think it could be a really good user of Curse.

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 94-112 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 126-148 (59.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Muk Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 162-192 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Not too bad vs Jolly Kang if it's got at least one Curse up. If it has two, Kang becomes set-up bait.
+2 252+ Atk Muk Shadow Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 156-184 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Shadow Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 118-140 (86.7 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 47-56 (22.1 - 26.4%) -- 13.6% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 84-100 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 Shadow Punch calc is disappointing, but you can always opt for EQ instead. Mega Gengar does little damage, so it's set up bait too.
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 144-170 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 256-304 (139.1 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +3 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 86-104 (40.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Muk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 169-199 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not too bad against Chomp, considering the crap match up. Just have a Curse up and Ice Punch. Ofc, I'm not sure Ice Punch is a good move(you get two coverage moves alongside Curse and Rest.)
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 153-181 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 102-121 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 76-91 (35.8 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Pretty good defensive calcs vs CB Talon, but you need Rock Slide or lots of boosts to do good damage back.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk: 165-195 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Muk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Blaziken: 192-228 (123.8 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Good against Blaziken assuming you run EQ/are boosted.

That's the main stuff. As you can see, Muk does quite well vs a lot of stuff-provided it has the right coverage move. Muk can only afford to run two coverage moves since Curse and Rest are required, and this means it'll always get beat by a couple inns based on what those moves are. Shadow Punch and Brick Break mean trouble vs Talon, Chomp, and Blaziken. Ice Punch and Rock Slide means you're bad vs Blaziken, and not as good vs Gengar. Earthquake and Ice Punch means you have trouble w/ Talon and Rotom-W(though that one's sorta a problem no matter what. I'd say Muk would fit in w/ the C crowd-maybe C-. It's not a bad Pokemon, w/ stats reminiscent of Snorlax w/ an arguably better ability for a Curse set(Poison Touch lets you do more to stuff that can take your coverage moves, though it's only a 30% chance to inflict regular poison status.)

EDIT: noticed Azelf isn't on here(none of the pixies are for that matter.) That's gotta be a solid C+ mon at minimum, and Uxie is probably a C w/ Mesprit being a D at best(isn't Mesprit supposed to be their leader or something?)

Muk seems pretty interesting but I don't think it will ever get a chance to set up and even if it does, it will get KO'ed right after 1 set up. Imagine a situation like this, muk is brought out against any of the top threats for example Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan immediately goes for a double edge, muk barely lives and goes for a poison jab. Kang definitely survives it and then KO's Muk with another attack. Even if it goes for curse it will get destroyed by the second attack. I really don't see it doing much except reducing the opponents hp just low enough to be revenge killed by another pokemon. I feel the highest it can go if it is ranked is probably C-.

Azelf's only role is to set up both the screens and proceed to go for an explosion. It is mainly used for the dual screen-blaziken baton pass strategy. That is probably the only thing it can do since it has terrible bulk and has a bad typing. It should probably be a D.
 
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NOVED

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I think Muk has more potential using Minimize rather than Curse(or perhaps both). Everything about muk is just too lackluster to use anything else. Poor speed, mediocre mono-typing, mediocre attack. It's bulk is decent, nothing to write home about though. It's coverage isnt horrible but again nothing amazing. It does have an interesting ability that I think could be utilized well combined with minimize, the poison could be useful for wearing mons down or putting them into 2hko range but its only a 30% chance with that. With minimize theres always a chance for it to do well i suppose but i dont think its gonna end up being consistent enough. It has just barely enough bulk to pull off minimize, but the low speed is certainly a hinderance.

I think D would be the best fit for it. But i'm also on the fence of it being ranked at all, it's hard to say because minimize can certainly be a strong strategy. I've faced muks a decent amount of times, sometimes it fucks shit up, sometimes it does absolutely nothing. That kinda tends to be the case with the niche minimize users.

Azelf isn't terrible as a lead I suppose. From usage stats it looks like it's often used with the LucNite core, as a replacement for Hippo. Makes sense, just a more offensive option as a rock setter. It can boom, twave, set up screens, or utilize its pretty good movepool. Fairly unpredictable and basically guaranteed rocks against the majority of the meta, aside from the semi rare taunt thund or mega sableye. My main complaint with it though is that it basically only functions well as a lead which kinda sucks. Even other SR setters like Hippo and Lando-T can be useful later in the game if you need them to. And since azelf would almost always be your guaranteed lead, it can be much easier for your opponent to play around. I haven't used azelf myself or seen it much, probably worth testing. I think it could maybe be around C or D, but maybe C range is being too optimistic im kinda just theorymoning here. I do believe it could be ranked at the very least though. Not sure about the other pixies though, especially Mesprit I think that's the worst of them all and I wouldn't consider ranking it. Uxie has yawn though, which we all know is good on SR setters but I think we have much better mons for that role. The main things uxie has to set itself apart from those are its good all around bulk, memento, screens and i guess u-turn. Is it enough to really justify using? Ehhh im not too sure, but probably not.

The thing with Entei vs Arcanine literally just boils down to Sacred Fire just actually being incredibly good. I don't think their stats play a big part in which is better. The difference in speed hardly makes a difference. Entei does have better bulk overall but the bulk Arcanine lacks is made up for with its ability. The difference between their attack stats hardly makes a difference. In fact, Arcanine is usually going to be hitting harder cause its main STAB is significantly more BP than Sacred Fire. Arcanine also is generally more offensive, running CB much more often than Entei. They each have unique qualities that give them an edge. Arcanine has much better coverage imo, CC and Wild charge are pretty nice. And of course, Espeed is an amazing move and probably the main reason for using Arcanine. But, imo, Sacred Fire is even more amazing. Being able to go on the offensive and still have a good chance of spreading status is great. Sacred Fire really punishes certain switchins or just cripples other ones at least, lots of physical walls will hate the residual damage. And the best part is you lose nothing by going for it most of the time. Really a fantastic move. Oh, and arcanine's intimidate is useful as well but I wouldn't want to utilize it by going fully defensive. I think theres much better options for physical tanks or whatever, I personally would rather use one that isnt weak to ground. But intimidate is cool even when you're fully offensive, it can just always come in handy. Entei's ability is obviously kinda shit in comparison, but dont underestimate subprotect toxic/burn stalling entei(always make sure to use those PP ups!). But yeah, overall I think Entei is definitely better. They both kinda suffer from the same downsides, both being a little too slow and mono fire type just being not really incredible imo. I think I agree with what you guys have been discussing. Entei somewhere around B and Arcanine somewhere around C(probably not C+ though imo). If this were the past season and Entei had espeed it'd be a much different story here and I'd probably tell you to never use Arcanine but alas thats not the case :(

Also, idk why we're comparing Arcanine to Mega Sableye but let's not do that. They're totally different mons haha


One last thing I'd like to say: So there's been a lot of discussion of somewhat niche mons for the past few pages now(which is fine ofc). But i'd like to direct some attention to more common pokemon again. I think it's important that we solidify the ranks of the most common pokemon you'll see, so that newer players get the best outline possible for what's good in the meta. And I don't mean just the top 12, I'm thinking more the top 30-50.
We have the top 50 from last season here(far left column): http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9p_VfRZg7n8/Vkx3a2P8O_I/AAAAAAAAClM/oS9Vr2V-Dc0/s1600/ORAS_S12_PGLKP.png
(courtesy of nouthuca )

So, do you guys think any pokemon in the top 50 are ranked too high/too low at the moment? (maybe not just top 50, other clearly viable mons are fine to discuss as well, Chansey in particular comes to mind)



 
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Out of the top 50 pokemon (besides entei which is unranked) , only cloyster is ranked below B- so I'd like to nominate cloyster to B.

Cloyster is imo a great pokemon with access to an amazing move shell smash and a great ability skill link. After it sets up a shell smash, it can be quite hard to stop and counter. Another great thing about cloyster is that it has a 180 base defense which is huge! That is as much as mega slowbro and cloyster doesn't take up a mega slot. Despite this it will die to almost any strong special attack move as 45 base special defense is pathetic. Also, I don't see how mega sharpedo, mega aggron, clawitzer and scrafty should be in B rank. They are quite outclassed and really there are many other pokemon who do the same thing they do but better. As for cloyster, it has more advantages (shell smash, 180 base defense, and skill link) than disadvantages(poor base special defense and fairly low power if it doesnt get to set up) and definitely belongs in B.

Also I'd like to nominate suicune from A+ to S.

Ik that some of you will disagree but I strongly feel that it is definitely S worthy. According to the definition of S rank, "These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits." Suicune walls almost all the physical attackers and with access to rest and calm mind, it can be a force to be reckoned with. It is only weak to about three pokemon which are Breloom, thundurus, and specs rotom. Besides those three, it has little to no problem with other pokemon. Here are a list of pokemon who can't beat suicune 1v1 - kangaskhan, garchomp, blaziken, azumarill, landorus, salamence, talonflame, lucario, mamoswine, tyranitar, scizor, mawile-mega and the list goes on. Suicune is the best wall in the meta and imo it's not even close.
 
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Psynergy

Escape Route
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I actually have experience with Azelf and I think it's definitely better than D. I used it specifically as a partner for Mega Lucario and being a fast and actually threatening SR/Dual Screen setter is actually very useful. While it's typically a suicide Stealth Rocker, it actually has a very nice movepool to let it threaten things even after setting Stealth Rock. 125/125 offenses are really nice when coupled with 115 Speed so it's capable of at least denting something with Psychic, Flamethrower or Grass Knot if it's done setting Rocks. Thunder Wave is also a neat support move it gets and it has no shortage of physical move options either so you can pick those slots based on what you want Azelf to hit (Ice Punch in particular is cool for Garchomp). Azelf is actually very flexible in what it can run, though being restricted to a lead for the most part is definitely a weakness. It also only fits on hyper offensive teams in need of a strong and fast SR/Dual Screens setter so that brings it down. Being forced to explode too early can also force you into an awkward 2v3 very early so it's got plenty of issues too. That being said I think C rank is a perfect place for Azelf, maybe C+ since it's pretty good at what it does and has the coverage options to easily surprise common threats.

S rank Suicune is an interesting thought though, it's definitely one of the best Pokemon in the format and I think it says something when you can comfortably fit it on just about any team archetype. It's by no means guaranteed to win against everything it threatens but it threatens so much and it's flexible enough to run a few different sets (Rocky Helmet support, CM Rest + Chesto) with plenty of useful options for moves. Nominating it to S is definitely a big claim but of all the A+ rank Pokemon, it's probably the one I'd disagree with the least. Not entirely sure if I think it's actually good enough for S rank though I think the potential is there.
 
+6 252+ SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Gastrodon: 163-192 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Y'know, Suicune has few hard counters, which are quite reliable agaist others. Especialy with clear smog.

Gastrodon is great, takes ice beam, from +6 Suicune and retaliate back with clear smog. Has shitload of nice moves. Toxic, recovery, stockpile, counter, cures, resttalk. Water, ground, ice, posion, rock coverage. Great coverage and tanky stats.

Man, who needs more? Verlisify one time was right, this thing is damn good, I'm wonder why I don't see this too often.
 
Agree w/ the above stuff...at least about Muk. It's a good Poke, but it's moves have low BP, and all its stats are fairly mediocre(bar speed which just sucks, but that's why it's a Curse.) I definitely thought about using Minimize w/ Curse, especially as Clefable is beat by Muk, but I'm not sure what Muk'd go w/ for mono type coverage. Definitely not Poson Jab. Speaking of PJ, I actually didn't recommend it alongside Curse and Rest because it provides bad coverage, and Muk can Poson(albeit not badly) w/ Poison a Touch. I think C- is about what I was no mind it for, so I'd be glad to see it go there.

Azelf is kind of one-dimensional, but I'd argue it doesn't have to be a lead. It's fast w/ great attacking stats, so it can make use of Trick w/ a Choice Scarf, or a mixed attacking set, maybe w/ substitute. Still, it's probably about a D anyways, just cause it's bulk is so lacking, and it's typing doesn't help it at all.

Uxie seems like it should be in the running for a decent rank. It's a little less bulky(75 base HP), but it's faster w/ access to Foul Play, Memento, and even Giga Drain, which might be nice w/ Calm Mind. U-Turn is pretty nice, too.

Mesprit is..probably not worth ranking, especially if we rank the other pixies. Healing Wish is nice, but Cresselia completely outclasses it in that role.

Didn't realize Clawitzer was in B rank(guess I just glossed over it,) I'd always use Cloyster over it, so something's gotta be moved there. I think Mega Aggron and Scrafty belong where they are, though. Mega Aggron has gigantic physical bulk, which is super nice in a predominantly physical meta, and it has great power backed by decent coverage. Id say Rees more of an argument for moving it up then down. Scrafty is an amazing AV user, w/ Shed Skin preventing it from getting crippled by burn, poison, and paralysis(sleep can get healed, too, but Breloom would just keep Sporing and eventually win by having Scrafty stay asleep more an one turn and whittling it down w/ Mach Punch.) It has Drain Punch for Recovery and good coverage besides. It's also got great bulk and fairly good power, backed by a semi reasonable speed tier as it beats base 50s and can creep 60s pretty easy. It can also do other sets, like DD w/ Intimidate, so it's not a one trick pony. One big flaw I noticed w/ it, though, is it has no way to muscle past Venusaur bar lots of DD boosts. Even Zen Headbutt does very little. Would agree on Mega Sharpedo being moved down. It's bulk is still atrocious, and Strong Jaw isn't terribly useful(pretty good, but other Megas have it beat on ability.) Any priority will ruin it, and I don't think it improves upon regular Pedo enough to warrant the mega slot.


I wholeheartedly support Suicune being S rank. It is bland like nobody's business, but brutally effective(that basically sums up S rank Pokes in a nutshell.) I haven't used it much, but obviously I've faced it a ton, and I just hate the thing. After some CMs it's near untreatable on the special side, and the giant investment in HP and Defense mean you won't have much luck hurting it w/ physical attacks either, especially when it can burn you. The only complaint I have is that Air Slash is event only, since I have multiple paralysis spreaders and water/flying coverage is yum.

EDI: Would also like to not Lanturn for B-. That might be a little high, but Lanturn is good because its typing and ability allow it to hard counter Thundurus and Rotom-W. It's also great vs Suicune and Talonflame(though it can't really switch in on the latter,) and can beat several more Pokemon like Garchomp and Landog, provided they're not sashed or AV, if it holds an Air Balloon. Megamence will lose to Lanturn that run Ice Beam if it doesn't have EQ, and Zapdos and Mega Manectric can't do anything to Lanturn. An interesting set I thought of for Lanturn is ReStock(Test and Stockpile,) w/ Soak and an electric move(Discharge if you don't have Toxic Spikes support, T-bolt otherwise.) You'd run it w/ Stealth Rock, since Soak will force switches.

That's a pretty niche idea, though. A more reasonable set would be 3 attacks and RestoChest. Lanturn could also use Agility, but its SpA is pretty low. Also, what do people think about Doublade? I'm actually against it getting ranked, but I wanna now if other people agree w/ that or if it was just forgotten.
 
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Agree w/ the above stuff...at least about Muk. It's a good Poke, but it's moves have low BP, and all its stats are fairly mediocre(bar speed which just sucks, but that's why it's a Curse.) I definitely thought about using Minimize w/ Curse, especially as Clefable is beat by Muk, but I'm not sure what Muk'd go w/ for mono type coverage. Definitely not Poson Jab. Speaking of PJ, I actually didn't recommend it alongside Curse and Rest because it provides bad coverage, and Muk can Poson(albeit not badly) w/ Poison a Touch. I think C- is about what I was no mind it for, so I'd be glad to see it go there.

Azelf is kind of one-dimensional, but I'd argue it doesn't have to be a lead. It's fast w/ great attacking stats, so it can make use of Trick w/ a Choice Scarf, or a mixed attacking set, maybe w/ substitute. Still, it's probably about a D anyways, just cause it's bulk is so lacking, and it's typing doesn't help it at all.

Uxie seems like it should be in the running for a decent rank. It's a little less bulky(75 base HP), but it's faster w/ access to Foul Play, Memento, and even Giga Drain, which might be nice w/ Calm Mind. U-Turn is pretty nice, too.

Mesprit is..probably not worth ranking, especially if we rank the other pixies. Healing Wish is nice, but Cresselia completely outclasses it in that role.
Muk

Damage isn't that great; this is correct. Bulk isn't bad overall, especially on the Special side (it's well above Char-Y for example, and Char-Y is pretty nice on natural Special bulk), and speed is in the shit level of Conkeldurr.
Coverage, we basically have Poison Jab + Shadow Sneak/Punch + Power-Up Punch + Elemental punches; and with Poison Touch, I may add, that's an additional +30% Poison chance on every contact move Muk uses (it does not affect the foe using a contact move; ie Khan using Return on Muk will never be poisoned), so Poison Jab basically doubles in Poison chance, PuP is a +1 atk boost PLUS a 30% poison chance for free residual damage. Standard Poison status isn't the best status in the game (imo, the worst due to almost no advantage over Burn) but a free 1/8th max HP per turn residual damage adds up fast, and Muk can spread it like ebola. Coverage, Muk always stinks (punny) unless it's running a CB or AV set. Which it generally should not run lol.
Very scary answer to Fairy types, though Gardevoir is a bitch. Deals with Fighting mons fairy well despite being glorious Guts bait, as most don't run Psychic or Ground coverage. I like it, personally, but it usually is running a setup set (PuP + Stockpile being my personal reccommendation) that isn't that great largely due to the Ground weakness. C- sounds fine. It's one of the better Poison types available, imo, but not that grand.

Uxie

One simply cannot look at Uxie without its same-gen bulky, offensively deadweight rival in Cresselia. Identical offenses, Uxie has a smidgen of speed, but a grotesque 45 point gap between Uxie and Cresselia's HP is the primary reason you very rarely see Uxie (and when you do; it's usually a noob with no idea wtf he's doing). So, we basically have to differenciate them by movepool (and the fact that all 3 pixies are cute, so bonus points). Uxie, first set that comes to mind is the dual-screens setup set (Memento + Screens + U-Turn); much like Latios, just a bit slower for more bulk and U-Turn so you don't HAVE to sac your setup mon. Cress could do the same with Lunar Dance I guess, but the point is to set up on something utterly crippled, instead of a heal+switch into a probably fully healed mon against a non-crippled foe. imo that's Uxie's most viable use is a brutal setup sweep with Dnite / Mega Luke / SD Chompy / PuP Khan / whatever other checkmate sweeper you like. In terms of other options, Uxie has Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Yawn, U-Turn, Foul Play, Heal Bell, and Trick is most of what stands out to me. Uxie, tragically, lacks reliable healing and Ice Beam (Ice Punch simply doesn't cover the same theats), and the superior bulk that Cress has is very insturmental to its effectiveness. imo, no higher than B- on Uxie: Cress is A, Latias is yet another similar mon, and Uxie is mostly outclassed by those two. As for the cripler set of Screens+Memento; Latios is pretty damn good at that one and the higher Speed helps cover the bulk gap by screening BEFORE getting hit. PLus, recover/roost. So yeah, B- on Uxie. Imo.

Azelf

Lead set is infamous since what, D/P? I guess you really, really depend on Stealth Rock so much it's worth sacrificing an entire team slot just to set it up once asap, the Azelf is great at Taunting, clicking SR, and then Exploding after the Sash is broke in front of a Garchomp that might just Dragon Claw you twice as you Taunt -> Stealth Rock and get a kill for almost nothing.
Azelf is, imo, similar to Alakazam: fast, strong, frail Psychic mon. Bit slower, bit weaker, quite a bit bulkier but still frail, but also has a movepool. You know, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, U-Turn, Nasty plot, all kinds of stuff Zammy never did get.
Mixed sets have Explosion, Ice Punch (slightly better than HP Ice I guess) and a better Knock Off.
Pretty scary after a Nasty Plot boost, can lay down some pain, and I guess run a suicide SR set. Lot like Alakazam, just has Levitate for switch in opportunity and actually has coverage. imo, C+, it's comparable to Starmie.

Mesprit

So much hate wtf.
Well balanced stats let it takes pretty good hits, offenses hit harder than you'd think, and its support movepool is good too. I ran it in Doubles not long ago (different meta, I know, but similar concept here) to counter stuff like Garchomp, Mence, Gyarados, Terrakion, Mega Venusaur, etc. by running it sort of like Porygon2: middling speed, good coverage in BoltBeam, good power, and good bulk. It's a tank. It's not an offensievly dead Uxie or cresselia; it's not an "Oh fuck they sneezed at me D:" Weavile or Alakazam. It's bulky and strong, not tough or brutal. Scarf lets it take hits, hit pretty decent between Psychic/U-Turn or Trick/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt, and revenge kill. Expert Belt lets it take hits, switch moves, and nail things harder; more for OHKOs than 2HKOs. Healing Wish lets it heal a teamate before going down, like cress, but offers a lot more power instead of bulk. Also has Stealth Rock, and similar support to Uxie, again, in exchange for power>bulk. It's niche, and it should be ranked the lowest of the pixies, but imo it's not that bad. Comparisions would be more along the lines of things like Special Swampert (who is running overall worse stats, I may add), Conkeldurr, and other tanky mons.
Lack of Fire coverage isn't too harsh; Ebelt HP Fire handles Scizor/Ferro if you need that, Fire Punch works too if you don't want to lose IVs but needs sun or chip damage. Personal favorite pixie, but again, should be ranked under Uxie/Azelf so I guess C or C-. If ranked. I'm the only non-retarded person that would run one anyway.

edit: ok maybe I'm a bit high on the ranks, blame the vodka k. Can throw Azelf/Uxie lower, like C/D instead of B-/C+, idc.
 
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This is a nitpick, but Uxie has 5 more base attack than Cress. I was just considering it vs Cress, so I didn't think how it's a weird middle man between Cress and Latios. W/ that in mind, C/C- would be a more reasonable rank. I agree w/ you that ranks no stuff is tough-it always seems like everything could fit in a couple different ranks, much more so when you consider +s and-s.

After comparing Azelf and Starmie'sStarmie's, I've decided Azelf should be B-. Starmie has much less SpA, no hope of going mixed or purely physical, roughly similar bulk, and the same speed tier. Analytic is only really useful on switches, since Starmie doesn't want to take a hit first, but Levitate's better overall for the switch in opportunities. Starmie is not the best Minimize user, so it can't really argue it has that over Azelf, either.

I like your take on Mesprit. It really highlights how it separates itself from the plethora of other Psychics. It definitely shouldn't be ranked higher than a D or so, though, since it's outclassed in any one role by another Psychic. Healing Wish is Cresselia(and perhaps Latias), offense is Azelf and Latios(and probably Reuniclus), Trick Room is Reuniclus(Cress is faster w/ less offensive prescence, so she doesn't really outclass it,) screens is...well, all of them, as is Trick.

I'm curious what you have to say on Lanturn and Smeargle. Lanturn is just amazing vs Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Thundy(I and T), Suicune, Mega Manectric, and Zapdos, while Smeargle is extremely annoying w/ Spore and Moody.

I agree w/ the above that Gastrodon is good. It has a ton of options, as well as reliable recovery. It's actually quite a bit like Lanturn, handling a lot of the same stuff(not so much Talonflame, but Lanturn only checks that.)

It's stats are kinda lopsided, w/ way more attack then it needs and lacking Def, but they're way better than Lanturn's overall.
 
Okay I know I have made a pretty big claim but I think I can back it up with some damage calcs.
The calcs are using this suicune set -


(Suicune) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
12 speed ivs to outspeed uninvested rotoms and the rest in hp and defense for as much physical bulk as possible. Chesto berry can be replaced by rocky helmet if your team fears kang.

On defense
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 67-81 (32.5 - 39.3%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 84-100 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. +1 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 57-67 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 100-118 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 134-158 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 90-108 (43.6 - 52.4%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +2 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 66-80 (32 - 38.8%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 75-88 (36.4 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 51-60 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 148-175 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 63-75 (30.5 - 36.4%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 93-111 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Explosion vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 111-131 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 67-79 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 96-114 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. +1 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 80-96 (38.8 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 94-112 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 82-97 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 142-168 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 172-203 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 130-160 (63.1 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 93-111 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. +1 244 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 80-96 (38.8 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 144-168 (69.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 47-56 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 47.9% chance to 4HKO

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 94-111 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 80-96 (38.8 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 63-75 (30.5 - 36.4%) -- 54.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 67-79 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

On offense
+1 0 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 212-252 (115.8 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gengar: 85-102 (50.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 84-99 (46.6 - 55%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 102-120 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 224-268 (136.5 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 204-244 (120 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 168-200 (109 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 66-78 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeahh it's a lot to read I know but I made a pretty big claim so I had to back it up. There aren't as many offensive calcs as defensive as suicunes role on offense is simple fish for burns with scalds against physical attackers and go for ice beams against those who are 4x effective to it. Clearly, on defense, suicune is a monster and just walls the entire meta.
 
Clearly, on defense, suicune is a monster and just walls the entire meta
Ummmm, what about no?

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 212-252 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 179-213 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 132-162 (63.7 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, and that guy has spores, too!

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 152-180 (73.4 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lum berry to avoid burn.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 106-126 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 134-158 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 140-166 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's set up folder for sub Mega Gyarados

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 16-20 (9.4 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 95-120 (45.8 - 57.9%) -- approx. 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The list is even longer but I'm to lazy to continue. We can see that Suicune is rekt by mons that ain't even rare.

Also Suicue is walled by Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Milotic, Reuniculus, Clefable....
 

Demantoid

[10:43:28] #Mishiimono)⊙﹏⊙✿( kills a dewgong
Also Suicue is walled by Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Milotic, Reuniculus, Clefable....
While it's kind of walled by those (definitely Clefable if it's Unaware) they can barely touch Suicune who just uses them as set-up fodder. The ability to use things that would normally check Suicune as set-up fodder is one of the best things about it imo.
 

NOVED

twitch.tv/novedpoke
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Ummmm, what about no?

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 212-252 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 179-213 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 132-162 (63.7 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, and that guy has spores, too!

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 152-180 (73.4 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lum berry to avoid burn.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 106-126 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 134-158 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 140-166 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's set up folder for sub Mega Gyarados

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 16-20 (9.4 - 11.7%) -- possible 9HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 95-120 (45.8 - 57.9%) -- approx. 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The list is even longer but I'm to lazy to continue. We can see that Suicune is rekt by mons that ain't even rare.

Also Suicue is walled by Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Milotic, Reuniculus, Clefable....
Showing calcs of super effective moves and +2 adaptability attacks isnt really a fair argument. Obviously SE attacks like Tbolts and leaf storms are gonna hurt, suicune is not gonna stay in on those. The guy you're quoting was clearly exaggerating when he said entire meta.
 
+2 adaptability attacks isnt really a fair argument
It is, since I used lum berry crawdnaut, so he can get this SD quite easily, without risking scald burn.

Also Mega Gardevoir and Zard Y are so common. That's biggest argument against suicune in S rank.
While it's kind of walled by those (definitely Clefable if it's Unaware) they can barely touch Suicune who just uses them as set-up fodder. The ability to use things that would normally check Suicune as set-up fodder is one of the best things about it imo.
Gastrodno has clear smog and can say some swears to get high damage on EQ.

Reuniculus has psyshock so it's more like suicune is set up folder for him.

Milotic has both haze and dragon tail.

I agree that Suicune is good. It's hard to doubt that, but in my opinion there is too many thing which can stop it.
 

NOVED

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It is, since I used lum berry crawdnaut, so he can get this SD quite easily, without risking scald burn.

Also Mega Gardevoir and Zard Y are so common. That's biggest argument against suicune in S rank.

Gastrodno has clear smog and can say some swears to get high damage on EQ.

Reuniculus has psyshock so it's more like suicune is set up folder for him.

Milotic has both haze and dragon tail.

I agree that Suicune is good. It's hard to doubt that, but in my opinion there is too many thing which can stop it.
What i'm saying is that nearly every pokemon is gonna drop to +2 attacks, and EVERY pokemon has common counters.
Also Gastro, Milotic, and Reuniclus have a lot of issues against the rest of the meta. They're not exactly good pokemon to bring up as an argument(and I don't even think Gastro and Milo come out on top). It is true that gyara can be a threatening, yeah. Only as long as it doesn't get burned though.

But imo, you shouldn't only list a bunch of pokemon that beat suicune as an argument against it. Look at Garchomp in S rank, it has many checks and counters but it's really versatile and consistent. Instead of just solely saying "these mons beat it" you should be talking about the qualities of suicune itself that you think make it bad/good.
 
It is true that gyara can be a threatening, yeah. Only as long as it doesn't get burned though.
Substitute fades in three scald hits at +0. That gives Gyarados nice room toset up DDs.


But imo, you shouldn't only list a bunch of pokemon that beat suicune as an argument against it. Look at Garchomp in S rank, it has many checks and counters but it's really versatile and consistent. Instead of just solely saying "these mons beat it" you should be talking about the qualities of suicune itself that you think make it bad/good.
OK, so let's have look on S rank mons.

Garchomp - can be revenge killer, check to almost any special attacker, good defensive wall, wallbreaker due to SD, has like perfect coverage and it's not so simple to predict which form he is.

Thundurus - SwagPlay, subtoxic, four attacks, nasty plot and taunt. Many different reliable set.

Gengar - perish trap/disable/protect, offensive, whisp support, Sub/disable

Mega Kanga - omg, every move in the game, incredible coverage including innovative sets like stomp/secret power, or seismic toss.

Meanwhile let's look back at suicune. Rest/calm mind, sheercold, mirror coat(hardly reliable), maybe rest/roar with hazards. Not many option, and when opponent see Suicune in preview he is aware what that thing does. He already has that fear in heart of CM suicune 3-0 his team on low ladder so he always have good wallbreaker. Also wallbreakers helps him deal with other treating deffensive mons like cres or clefable.
 
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ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Let's have a look at the description for S rank real quick:

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Battle Spot Singles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
With Suicune it's less about the number of different things it can do, it's more that it has a small number of things that it can do really consistently and really well. The meta is really physically-inclined, and Suicune can take hits from virtually any physical attacker (hi Breloom) and retaliate passively with Rocky Helmet and actively with Scald. It beats literally everything in the top 12 bar Thundurus and maybe Rotom-Wash, sits at #11 itself, and beats a whole host of other things that aren't listed. Calm Mind allows it to set up on and wall most special attackers that lack a type advantage. While it's far from unbeatable, it can checkmate a lot of different things and has to be taken into account while teambuilding to avoid that situation. On your side, it's an amazing tool for blanket checking threats such as Blaziken, Salamence, Mamoswine, Garchomp, Kangaskhan... For this reason, I reckon that it could very well find a place in S rank, as many of the attributes laid out in the description apply to it quite well.
 
Well I was gonna reply to Seth_ but since Noved, demantoid, and ethan06 have pretty much said everything required and have said it well there is no reason for me to talk more about it. I also have an idea which I got from some of the viability rankings of other tiers. Why not add an S- rank and suicune could probably be the first Pokemon to be moved there. It just seems like it would fit there.