Why is Mega Gengar so good? I still don't get it...
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Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings
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The ability to trap other pokemon is really really good, easy way to take out counters for other pokemon you have. Which can pave the way for a lot of pokemon to clean up. And it has so many tools to do this well. Wisp to cripple physical attackers at the very least, high speed and SpA makes it really good at revenge killing alongside Shadow Tag, Destiny Bond guarantees you a kill(or two) in some scenarios, Hex + Wisp/Hypnosis lets it do insane amounts of damage, and it has perish song which is nice against more defensive teams, and lots of other stuff it can viably run. It's a really effective mon.
Sash Gengar? Suck on 2 Shadow Balls, a Destiny Bond, Icy Wind, who knows what.
Mega Gengar? It lives everything, clicks Perish Song, and boom, half your team is gone after Protect -> Sub -> Switch in Doubles and you can do almost nothing about it while Liepard Encores and Fake Outs everything.
Should I EQ it as it megas, since it's the only chance I get for good damage? Or is it non-Mega, and therefore retarded to click EQ at all?
Fuck Gengar.
LO Dual Chop Garchomp works nice though. OHKOs 4/0/0 Sash variants, and lives Icy Wind if they know it. Mega Gengar loses a good chunk of HP, and won't enjoy the ensuing EQ. Sub doesn't mean jack shit either.
Of course, if it's LO and knows Icy Wind, you just auto-lose in Singles.
Does anyone know when the Smogon Analysis of the rest of the top 40 Pokemon on BattleSpot Stats is going to be posted? Im a newbie who doesnt really use Pokemon Showdown outside of spectating. But I do breed Pokemon for BattleSpotSingles and rely on Smogon recommended builds, and have been waiting on updates for missing Pokemon like Mamoswine, Rotom-W, Charizard, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Sylveon, etc. The BSS analyses of the Pokemon banned to Ubers from OU, like Mega-Kangaskhan, Mega-Gengar, Blaziken, Aegislash, Greninja, etc. have all been really, really helpful. Also, it seems like this BSS thread is not as active anymore as it was at the start when it was made. Even went a whole month from January to February before a new post was made. Have people just gotten bored of BattleSpotSingles?
First and foremost, welcome to Smogon. Secondly, this post doesn't belong in here. It seems like more of a general question to me. Tagging cant say, fix pls. On analyses, a lot of the Pokemon you mentioned have analyses being written for them right now! You'll honestly just have to be patient. As for forum activity, I'll just say that I really hope Pokemon Sun and Moon bring this metagame back into the limelight.
I assume he used this thread because, like the Stats website, has the analyses linked in the OP, so I'm gonna leave it here.
As for analyses that aren't done yet, we do them all in this forum: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-spot-analyses.336/
We only have a small team working on them so the process is admittedly slow. However anyone who's confident can jump right in and either write their own or offer advice / feedback on the ones being written. There's also the Analyses Discussion thread in that forum where you can ask questions like this.
If something doesn't have an analysis you can always just ask what a good build for a Pokemon is either in our Simple Questions thread, the analyses thread, or on Pokemon Showdown! I made a massive list of builds a while ago for like 100 viable BSS mons for a massive giveaway we had planned. I should dig that back up to use as a reference for users like you who have the same problem.
I like to think that this thread gets quiet because people become content with the Viability Rankings and there's nothing to move up / down or add.
As for analyses that aren't done yet, we do them all in this forum: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battle-spot-analyses.336/
We only have a small team working on them so the process is admittedly slow. However anyone who's confident can jump right in and either write their own or offer advice / feedback on the ones being written. There's also the Analyses Discussion thread in that forum where you can ask questions like this.
If something doesn't have an analysis you can always just ask what a good build for a Pokemon is either in our Simple Questions thread, the analyses thread, or on Pokemon Showdown! I made a massive list of builds a while ago for like 100 viable BSS mons for a massive giveaway we had planned. I should dig that back up to use as a reference for users like you who have the same problem.
I feel like Drifblim should move from D to C.
Drifblim @ Kee Berry
Ability: Unburden
Level: 50
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Minimize
- Baton Pass
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
This is the set I use. The physical bulk is the main thing, with Spe for 92 Spe Mega Hera once it's been mega for a turn. With it I can afford to set up a Minimize on things like Garchomp, Kang, Blaziken, Excadrill, Landog, and others. Some of these 2HKO...except not really since the first attack triggers Kee(and those that actually do 2HKO with the first hit on unboosted Def and the second on +1 Def can't do that if I'm at +1 to begin with, and even if I'm not they trigger Unburden so I can BP my Minimize to a teammate,) which also doubles Drifblim's Speed(sadly not a passable boost, but still really helpful,) so if I use Minimize/Wisp that turn I can then use it again the next turn before the opponent moves, so that I'm either at +4 Evasion or at +2 and the foe is burned.
Many variants of Kang are some combination of Fake Out/ DE/ EQ/ PuP/ Sucker Punch, and they can't hit at all once they go mega. Even with STAB and Kee used up Acrobatics is kinda disappointing damage vs most things off an uninvested base 80 Atk stat, but it's still strong for a defensive mon and OHKOs Mega Hera(not really a feat with the 4x weakness but still.)
If nothing else, I don't think Drif completely fits the description for D rank, since it's supporting its teammates not vice versa(I mean Ofc it likes Reflect and stuff to help it set up, but that goes for all set up mons.)
Here are some calcs and replays to prove this isn't a silly nomination like Regice, Armaldo, and Mismagius(those were the glory days, eh cant say?)
Drifblim @ Kee Berry
Ability: Unburden
Level: 50
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Minimize
- Baton Pass
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
This is the set I use. The physical bulk is the main thing, with Spe for 92 Spe Mega Hera once it's been mega for a turn. With it I can afford to set up a Minimize on things like Garchomp, Kang, Blaziken, Excadrill, Landog, and others. Some of these 2HKO...except not really since the first attack triggers Kee(and those that actually do 2HKO with the first hit on unboosted Def and the second on +1 Def can't do that if I'm at +1 to begin with, and even if I'm not they trigger Unburden so I can BP my Minimize to a teammate,) which also doubles Drifblim's Speed(sadly not a passable boost, but still really helpful,) so if I use Minimize/Wisp that turn I can then use it again the next turn before the opponent moves, so that I'm either at +4 Evasion or at +2 and the foe is burned.
Many variants of Kang are some combination of Fake Out/ DE/ EQ/ PuP/ Sucker Punch, and they can't hit at all once they go mega. Even with STAB and Kee used up Acrobatics is kinda disappointing damage vs most things off an uninvested base 80 Atk stat, but it's still strong for a defensive mon and OHKOs Mega Hera(not really a feat with the 4x weakness but still.)
If nothing else, I don't think Drif completely fits the description for D rank, since it's supporting its teammates not vice versa(I mean Ofc it likes Reflect and stuff to help it set up, but that goes for all set up mons.)
Here are some calcs and replays to prove this isn't a silly nomination like Regice, Armaldo, and Mismagius(those were the glory days, eh cant say?)
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 177-208 (70.8 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band burned Garchomp Outrage vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 59-69 (23.6 - 27.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 4HKO
Just doing the strongest set to save time. So you have some chance to live 2 consecutive Outrages from CB Chomp even if the first one isn't on a boosted Def stat. You can burn it that turn, and then get up a Minimize/pass what you got the next turn since Unburden makes you faster.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 158-188 (63.2 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 53-64 (21.2 - 25.6%) -- Miniscule chance to 4HKO
Same deal as with Chomp, except unlike Outrage Ice Punch isn't extremely common.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 102-120 (40.8 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This one you actually have to be boosted beforehand to take hits well, especially as it can't be burned. But you can Minimize on the Flare Blitz then BP a Minimize and a Def boost the next turn cuz you're faster.
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 141-166 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 93-111 (37.2 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No 2HKO for this one. And let's not even get into 0 Atk variants that are free set up if they don't have Taunt, and if they do I'll just switch to Heatran which eats them.
252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 150-186 (60 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk burned Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 48-63 (19.2 - 25.2%) -- Miniscule chance to 4HKO
This is good, though it's not a boosted item sadly. I try to avoid Mamo with Drif cause it can get lucky with extra Icicle Spear hits, but the match up is far from hopeless.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 181-214 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate burned Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 60-72 (24 - 28.8%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
Some chance to live it, though it's trouble if it's got DDs or its special.
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 119-141 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 83-98 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Mawile is mostly useless once you burn it. Only thing to really worry about is missing WoW, though I have a 25% chance to live Knock Off even without the burn. That and the fairly low chance of Wisp missing means I'm very likely to burn Mawile one way or the other, then maybe set up Minimize and pass it depending on what HP I'd bleat and stuff.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 116-138 (46.4 - 55.2%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
Not 2KOing...even without a burn or misses. Plus Landog has to be locked into the right move. I can come in for free on EQ and start boosting, or switch in on a predicted U-Turn(or Explosion lol.) it'd do negligible damage and activate Kee.
That's probably more than enough calcs, especially with all my replays.
[\Hide]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-341578445
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-342143768
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-342320825
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-344683752
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-344684844
Some of these I'm probably not even entering Drif...but at least it's on the team.
252 Atk Choice Band burned Garchomp Outrage vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 59-69 (23.6 - 27.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 4HKO
Just doing the strongest set to save time. So you have some chance to live 2 consecutive Outrages from CB Chomp even if the first one isn't on a boosted Def stat. You can burn it that turn, and then get up a Minimize/pass what you got the next turn since Unburden makes you faster.
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 158-188 (63.2 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 53-64 (21.2 - 25.6%) -- Miniscule chance to 4HKO
Same deal as with Chomp, except unlike Outrage Ice Punch isn't extremely common.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 102-120 (40.8 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This one you actually have to be boosted beforehand to take hits well, especially as it can't be burned. But you can Minimize on the Flare Blitz then BP a Minimize and a Def boost the next turn cuz you're faster.
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 141-166 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 93-111 (37.2 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No 2HKO for this one. And let's not even get into 0 Atk variants that are free set up if they don't have Taunt, and if they do I'll just switch to Heatran which eats them.
252 Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 150-186 (60 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk burned Mamoswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 48-63 (19.2 - 25.2%) -- Miniscule chance to 4HKO
This is good, though it's not a boosted item sadly. I try to avoid Mamo with Drif cause it can get lucky with extra Icicle Spear hits, but the match up is far from hopeless.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 181-214 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate burned Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. +1 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 60-72 (24 - 28.8%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
Some chance to live it, though it's trouble if it's got DDs or its special.
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 119-141 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 83-98 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Mawile is mostly useless once you burn it. Only thing to really worry about is missing WoW, though I have a 25% chance to live Knock Off even without the burn. That and the fairly low chance of Wisp missing means I'm very likely to burn Mawile one way or the other, then maybe set up Minimize and pass it depending on what HP I'd bleat and stuff.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 116-138 (46.4 - 55.2%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
Not 2KOing...even without a burn or misses. Plus Landog has to be locked into the right move. I can come in for free on EQ and start boosting, or switch in on a predicted U-Turn(or Explosion lol.) it'd do negligible damage and activate Kee.
That's probably more than enough calcs, especially with all my replays.
[\Hide]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-341578445
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-342143768
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-342320825
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-344683752
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlespotsingles-344684844
Some of these I'm probably not even entering Drif...but at least it's on the team.
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Hey guys, I still see mamoswine is in A-. We pretty much agreed it was higher than that didn't we? Or are there people who disagree? I think a pokemon that cun that many items and sets and has the stab with the best super effective coverage of all duo moves deserves to be A+. The rankings display a steady rise to even 7th place now if i recall correctly.
Well this thread died. I wish Heatran was lower so I could nom it to where it is currently, and generate some discussion. I really like it and it tends to be my best min, but I just don't think it can be higher than A with a 4x ground weakness. Then again, Chomp has a 4x ice weakness, so mayb.
What do other people think about it? I've had great success with it. Examples include stalling out Mega Blastoise with Toxic(specially defensive lives a Water Pulse, then stalls for Toxic damage with SunProtect and Lefties. I see a lot of Mega Blastoise on PS,) roasting Ferro, Skarms, and Scizor(and taking nothing from any of them,) and Toxic stalling other stuff like Cress and Milotic(weirdly see a lot of those too, at least compared to what I'd expect.) Another thing is, against sub users strong against fire, Heatran can often PP stall them. An example is the weird SubToxic Rotom-H I see sometimes, which can't even break a sub in one hit with Discharge.
Heatran also switches in really nice on a lot of attackers like Zard Y(X is more common on cart, but on PS I mostly see Y. And X is pretty predictable, since it'll avoid Heatran if it lucks EQ, you kno it's got EQ if it switches in.) I don't think it should be going up-tho I wouldn't be opposed to that-but bear in mind that, if you're thinking of trying to get it moved down, you're gonna have me to deal with :P
What do other people think about it? I've had great success with it. Examples include stalling out Mega Blastoise with Toxic(specially defensive lives a Water Pulse, then stalls for Toxic damage with SunProtect and Lefties. I see a lot of Mega Blastoise on PS,) roasting Ferro, Skarms, and Scizor(and taking nothing from any of them,) and Toxic stalling other stuff like Cress and Milotic(weirdly see a lot of those too, at least compared to what I'd expect.) Another thing is, against sub users strong against fire, Heatran can often PP stall them. An example is the weird SubToxic Rotom-H I see sometimes, which can't even break a sub in one hit with Discharge.
Heatran also switches in really nice on a lot of attackers like Zard Y(X is more common on cart, but on PS I mostly see Y. And X is pretty predictable, since it'll avoid Heatran if it lucks EQ, you kno it's got EQ if it switches in.) I don't think it should be going up-tho I wouldn't be opposed to that-but bear in mind that, if you're thinking of trying to get it moved down, you're gonna have me to deal with :P
Yeah i agree heatran is an amazing mon especially because of the bunch of resistances/immunities it gets. Apart from walling the pokemon above, it can wall mega mawile which is a great deal for me too.
Uh...never really thought about it before, but why on Earth is Roserade B rank? I'm not sure it should even be ranked at all. Usage stats reflect this, it's #144 in usage, on .2% of teams.
It's sorta at a blade place for Spe, 90 isn't enough with its frailty. Chomp for instance can then take it out pretty easy. It has a pretty bad movepool, nothing to touch Heatran with, and is destroyed by the ubiquitous Talonflame. Also kinda sux against Kang(might not outspeed, but easily takes a hit and OHKOs, even Sashed ones,) Thundy-I(doesn't get too threatened, and can cripple with T-Wave. Worse still is Swagger,) Blaziken, Megamence, Gengar, basically all the most common stuff. It's also not the best switch in for Breloom, despite the Spore immunity, thanks to physical frailty. Mega Venu and Serperior are way better for that.
It's sorta at a blade place for Spe, 90 isn't enough with its frailty. Chomp for instance can then take it out pretty easy. It has a pretty bad movepool, nothing to touch Heatran with, and is destroyed by the ubiquitous Talonflame. Also kinda sux against Kang(might not outspeed, but easily takes a hit and OHKOs, even Sashed ones,) Thundy-I(doesn't get too threatened, and can cripple with T-Wave. Worse still is Swagger,) Blaziken, Megamence, Gengar, basically all the most common stuff. It's also not the best switch in for Breloom, despite the Spore immunity, thanks to physical frailty. Mega Venu and Serperior are way better for that.
Right.
252+ SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 129-152 (83.2 - 98%)
No-one cares about T-Wave when you have Natural Cure.
252+ SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 144-172 (93.5 - 111.6%)
Cannot switch in :(
Roserade's main function is as a Grass-type attacker that trashes pretty much every other Grass-type in the format (as well as every Water-type) while acting as a status sponge and an answer to Fairy-types. The list of things that Roserade beats includes such monsters as:
Serperior
needs no explanation, absorbs Glare with Natural Cure and merks with Sludge Bomb
Breloom
252+ SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 66-78 (48.8 - 57.7%)
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roserade: 72-85 (53.3 - 62.9%)
absorbs Spore, quad resists Bullet Seed, resists Mach Punch, 2HKOs with a resisted Giga Drain and heals back a ton. Wins 1v1
Ferrothorn
lol HP Fire
Venusaur
252+ SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 91-109 (48.6 - 58.2%)
Venu's Sludge Bomb also 2HKOs but Roserade doesn't need much investment to outspeed
Talonflame
see above
Thundurus
see above
Rotom-W
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 64-76 (47.4 - 56.2%)
resists all the hits, OHKOs everything except max spdef Rotom with Giga Drain, Natural Cures away burn if you need to even though it doesn't hinder Rose at all
Azumarill
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Roserade: 114-134 (84.4 - 99.2%)
Then you OHKO with Giga Drain and you're sitting pretty at 60% or whatever because you healed it all back
Suicune
228+ SpA Life Orb Roserade Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 109-127 (52.6 - 61.3%)
Suicune can't safely Rest until it has like four Calm Minds gl with that
Gengar
Can be beaten at a pinch if you land a Sleep Powder. Giga Drain 3HKOs so with some luck you can muscle through
Aegislash
228+ SpA Life Orb Technician Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 101-120 (60.4 - 71.8%)
Sleep Powder and start hitting it. Usually doesn't win 1-on-1 but still does heavy damage before going down.
Zapdos
252+ SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 112-132 (82.9 - 97.7%)
Sleep and 2HKO with Sludge Bomb. No Zapdos runs max SpA so whatever, that calc is just a proof of concept. Even if it gets a max roll and Roserade dies to LO recoil you still have a sleeping Zapdos at 40%
Cresselia
Sleep and 3HKO with two Giga Drains and a Sludge Bomb. Can't OHKO with Psychic STAB.
Hippowdon
Giga Drain OHKOs
Swampert
Giga Drain OHKOs
Mamoswine
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 28 Def Roserade: 92-110 (68.1 - 81.4%)
Spear can OHKO even with 2 hits but most Mamo will get scared of Timid Rose and click Shard. Giga Drain OHKOs
Anyways, I've gone quite a bit into the realm of things that Roserade isn't strictly supposed to beat, but Roserade's job is to merk Fairies, Waters and other Grass-types while still invalidating Skillcat and switching into Will-o-Wisps and T-Waves, and it does that really well. Well enough to stay in B with the likes of other nichemons like Bisharp, Chandelure and Mandibuzz.
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Actually would agree. It looked so dumb to me I didn't think to run calcs and stuff. But then why don't more people use Roserade? Seriously, I see stuff like Milotic and Dedenne way more than Roserade. Yes that's PS, but it's not that different.
Also, why'd you switch to 228+SpA partway through?
EDIT: At least I've breathed a little life back into this thread. I'll try to think if there's anything else I think is better or worse in BSS than the rankings reflect.
I have barely used Roserade at all in Gen 6, which is a shame, it's among my absolute favorites. Modest LO is pretty much required for all those KOs though, rex Speed and bulk :/
but fuck if it's actually good at Singles I might have to try singles.
edit: HP Ice and Ground also decides what it can and cannot beat.
wtf is Skillcat
HP Ice is bad, Garchomp and Mence both OHKO. Bring a Mamoswine
HP Ground hits Heatran and nothing else, bring anything with EQ
HP Fire leaves you walled by Heatran, but I'd definitely prefer the hit on Ferrothorn and Scizor when you can just sleep a slow Heatran anyway
Skillcat is Assist Liepard with Breloom and Ditto, built in such a way that Assist can only call Spore. Really gross D:
as for speed benchmarks, the main one to hits is +Spe base 70s like Breloom - 4 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 28 SpD / 196 Spe outspeeds Breloom, takes +6 Azu Aqua Jet all the time and dumps the rest into bulk and power :]
HP Ground hits Heatran and nothing else, bring anything with EQ
HP Fire leaves you walled by Heatran, but I'd definitely prefer the hit on Ferrothorn and Scizor when you can just sleep a slow Heatran anyway
Skillcat is Assist Liepard with Breloom and Ditto, built in such a way that Assist can only call Spore. Really gross D:
as for speed benchmarks, the main one to hits is +Spe base 70s like Breloom - 4 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 28 SpD / 196 Spe outspeeds Breloom, takes +6 Azu Aqua Jet all the time and dumps the rest into bulk and power :]
Ice is for switchins, or Sashed Technician.
Ground is pretty bad yeah, coincidentally that's the only one I have bred atm.
SkillCat sounds like people don't believe in Lum Berries, Safeguard, Saftey Goggles, or Gliscor. One must always have some anti-cheese machine on the team. It's the secret of my only succesful BS team.
Wonder if a bulky Spiker set could be good. Ferrothorn is obvious competition but T-Spikes / Sleep Powder / offensive presence (remember kids, Roserade's Leaf Storm = Hydreigon's Draco Meteor).
Thank you for giving me something to think about with my favorite Grass mon.
Well, hi. You kno you don't have to make it a quote if it's what you're saying right(tho I guess good job figuring out how to do them your first day, took me a while lol?)
Idk about Sceptile. Made a few disparaging posts about it in another thread. Lots of problems, that one. I will acknowledge that it's far from Mega Audino level bad, hits hard and fast and can play some min games with "is it gonna go mega or not and I can t-wave?" But Scarf Chomp, Jolly Scarf Mamo(doubt you'll see Adamant Scarf cuz Mamo wants to outspeed High Spe Landog, and might as well invest a little extra for base 145s,) Sash Mamo, Talonflame, Rotom-H, Mega Venu, Serperior(obviously not gonna win the day with Leaf Storm, but can para with Glare,) Aegis(HP Fire won't do that much, and activates WP,) AV Conk, HP Ice Blaziken if it's faster(mayb even if it's not,) Megamence after a DD, Kang if you lack Focus Blast/miss with it, Scizoro if you lack HP Fire, and Ofc several other things give it trouble.
Sceptile is just outclassed as a mega, not necessarily bad. It's movepool isn't good enough, and it's frail, especially for a mega. It's almost worth noting that, while Lightningrod protects you from t-wave, that's about it. No one would want to t-bolt Sceptile anyways, cuz mega it 4x resists electric. B is already generous IMO.
Bronzong I've never used and have rarely faced, but I kno its quite bulky and gets to play so,e mind games with its ability. I'm not opposed to it getting ranked, though mayb a D instead(and only if Drifblim moves up like I suggested...though I'm not sure anyone bothers to edit the rankings lol.)
Umbreon is good, and can be very tough to face. I can think of reasons why it might not be as high as B, like the lack of an offensive presence bar a Curse set, but I can't see why it's not ranked. Think a case of people just not keeping up with this thread as much again, I don't think anyone is opposed to it being ranked at least as high Vaporeon(it's #60 in usage to Vapo's #133.)
Where'd he go? I'm quoting no one lol. I guess you can infer from context tho, and they see, to be fair points.
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it was a spam account, we deleted the post and banned the account.
Idk about Sceptile. Made a few disparaging posts about it in another thread. Lots of problems, that one. I will acknowledge that it's far from Mega Audino level bad, hits hard and fast and can play some min games with "is it gonna go mega or not and I can t-wave?" But Scarf Chomp, Jolly Scarf Mamo(doubt you'll see Adamant Scarf cuz Mamo wants to outspeed High Spe Landog, and might as well invest a little extra for base 145s,) Sash Mamo, Talonflame, Rotom-H, Mega Venu, Serperior(obviously not gonna win the day with Leaf Storm, but can para with Glare,) Aegis(HP Fire won't do that much, and activates WP,) AV Conk, HP Ice Blaziken if it's faster(mayb even if it's not,) Megamence after a DD, Kang if you lack Focus Blast/miss with it, Scizoro if you lack HP Fire, and Ofc several other things give it trouble.
Sceptile is just outclassed as a mega, not necessarily bad. It's movepool isn't good enough, and it's frail, especially for a mega. It's almost worth noting that, while Lightningrod protects you from t-wave, that's about it. No one would want to t-bolt Sceptile anyways, cuz mega it 4x resists electric. B is already generous IMO.
Bronzong I've never used and have rarely faced, but I kno its quite bulky and gets to play so,e mind games with its ability. I'm not opposed to it getting ranked, though mayb a D instead(and only if Drifblim moves up like I suggested...though I'm not sure anyone bothers to edit the rankings lol.)
Umbreon is good, and can be very tough to face. I can think of reasons why it might not be as high as B, like the lack of an offensive presence bar a Curse set, but I can't see why it's not ranked. Think a case of people just not keeping up with this thread as much again, I don't think anyone is opposed to it being ranked at least as high Vaporeon(it's #60 in usage to Vapo's #133.)
Where'd he go? I'm quoting no one lol. I guess you can infer from context tho, and they see, to be fair points.
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it was a spam account, we deleted the post and banned the account.
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Yeah good question! Xd it seems like the one that was in charge for this has forgotten it or something. Updating will help invite more post in this thread, and there are a lot of suggestions for changes.
On topic: yes umbreon is good, c or b- would fit it imo because of its walling ability and helpful synchronoise heal bell for toxic and other status users. For the rest, sceptile is bad and especially bad because of its mega slot opportunity cost: you just want other megas as your mega team slot. I also dont see a lot of high japanese players using it. Sceptile is something in C imo, not that its as bad as the pokemon there, but because of that mega slot opportunity cost.
"Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Battle Spot Singles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits."
Just don't see the TTars, mega or not, being A- rank material. The 4x fighting weakness has always been really off putting for me, as is the lack of reliable recovery, like Hippo, TTars main competition, has.
With t-wave, SR, and the obvious Sand Stream it is capable of supporting its team, but Hippo is a better SR setter that also sets sand automatically, and T-Wave and our other methods of inflicting paralysis aren't exactly rare.
Sweeping is tough for TTar. It's not very fast(tho 61 is nice for just barely outspeeding 60s, and doing the same for 70s of mega,) and easy to revenge with many things, mainly due to that 4x fighting weakness, though strong physical moves that target it's lesser(in Sand,) Def can also do the trick. Burning TTar messes it up most of the time, and paralyzingly it means it will be slow as molasses even at +6, tho it'll Ofc never get there in the first place.
TTar does not seem very good to me, and more often than not is gonna need support, possibly t-wave or TR, tho screens help set up too. It's large number of weaknesses and few resistances are pretty tough to look past, even with quite a bit of bulk and power(and most of that bulk is focused in SpD, which is a shame since a) that's the lesser defense stat in BSS and b) TTar could mostly handle special threats even without the crazy Sand SpD buff, except Focus Blast users and such which still do too much) TTar isn't that great.
Lots of Pokemon take it out or at least trouble it greatly, to the point where the next thing can easily take it out so you're only trading 1 for 1. Some that come to mind are CB Chomp(any item if TTar is sufficiently weakened,) Suicune, Lopunny(switch in for free pre mega on t-wave, or sub on a predicted t-wave as mega. Or just OHKO Ofc,) Hippo if it's not an Ice Beam TTar, Mamoswine, Blaziken, Low Kick Greninja, Weavile, Breloom, Mega Hera, Terrakion, Infernape, Kang, Rotom-W, Serperior, Klefki(wouldn't wanna Swagger and definitely can't take it out with Foul Play, but can t-wave it, fearing pretty much nothing with a resistance to TTar's STABs, and then set up a Reflect for a sweeper. Or even Toxic or Play Rough, depending on the set,) Mawile, Mega Gyara, Mega Slowbro(252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 66-80 (32.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage. That's "super-effective." The odds of Crunch dropping Bro's Def and Scald not burning you are quite low,) Excadrill, Zard Y if you've taken some prior damage and/ or it gets lucky(252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 158-188 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO), and Heatran(252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 152-180 (86.3 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO. same deal as Zard Y, needs TTar to be weakened a bit if you wanna be safe or its bulky.)
Having the same ability after mega evolving also kinda sux. It'll ocasionally be helpful to reset sand, but hoe often is the sand gonna go away before you evolve? I'm not sure exactly where TTar should be, but I think somewhere in the Bs. I'm not against Hippo being in the same rank since it has its fair share of problems(flying types with Taunt shut almost all variants down completely, for example,) but then it should move down to IMO.
Just don't see the TTars, mega or not, being A- rank material. The 4x fighting weakness has always been really off putting for me, as is the lack of reliable recovery, like Hippo, TTars main competition, has.
With t-wave, SR, and the obvious Sand Stream it is capable of supporting its team, but Hippo is a better SR setter that also sets sand automatically, and T-Wave and our other methods of inflicting paralysis aren't exactly rare.
Sweeping is tough for TTar. It's not very fast(tho 61 is nice for just barely outspeeding 60s, and doing the same for 70s of mega,) and easy to revenge with many things, mainly due to that 4x fighting weakness, though strong physical moves that target it's lesser(in Sand,) Def can also do the trick. Burning TTar messes it up most of the time, and paralyzingly it means it will be slow as molasses even at +6, tho it'll Ofc never get there in the first place.
TTar does not seem very good to me, and more often than not is gonna need support, possibly t-wave or TR, tho screens help set up too. It's large number of weaknesses and few resistances are pretty tough to look past, even with quite a bit of bulk and power(and most of that bulk is focused in SpD, which is a shame since a) that's the lesser defense stat in BSS and b) TTar could mostly handle special threats even without the crazy Sand SpD buff, except Focus Blast users and such which still do too much) TTar isn't that great.
Lots of Pokemon take it out or at least trouble it greatly, to the point where the next thing can easily take it out so you're only trading 1 for 1. Some that come to mind are CB Chomp(any item if TTar is sufficiently weakened,) Suicune, Lopunny(switch in for free pre mega on t-wave, or sub on a predicted t-wave as mega. Or just OHKO Ofc,) Hippo if it's not an Ice Beam TTar, Mamoswine, Blaziken, Low Kick Greninja, Weavile, Breloom, Mega Hera, Terrakion, Infernape, Kang, Rotom-W, Serperior, Klefki(wouldn't wanna Swagger and definitely can't take it out with Foul Play, but can t-wave it, fearing pretty much nothing with a resistance to TTar's STABs, and then set up a Reflect for a sweeper. Or even Toxic or Play Rough, depending on the set,) Mawile, Mega Gyara, Mega Slowbro(252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 66-80 (32.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage. That's "super-effective." The odds of Crunch dropping Bro's Def and Scald not burning you are quite low,) Excadrill, Zard Y if you've taken some prior damage and/ or it gets lucky(252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 158-188 (89.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO), and Heatran(252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 152-180 (86.3 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO. same deal as Zard Y, needs TTar to be weakened a bit if you wanna be safe or its bulky.)
Having the same ability after mega evolving also kinda sux. It'll ocasionally be helpful to reset sand, but hoe often is the sand gonna go away before you evolve? I'm not sure exactly where TTar should be, but I think somewhere in the Bs. I'm not against Hippo being in the same rank since it has its fair share of problems(flying types with Taunt shut almost all variants down completely, for example,) but then it should move down to IMO.
I completely disagree with you here. Tyranitar is such a good pokemon able to run so many different sets. I think it's pretty unfair for you to bring up pokemon which have a type advantage over it because that argument can be said for any pokemon. It's like saying talonflame is bad because it is 4x weak to rock and can't do anything against the rotom forms, any rock type, suicune, and thundurus. Sand stream is such a great ability. It gives ttar a special defense boost and it chips of some hp from your opponent. Now instead of focusing on the weak points, think of the strong points:-
- Able to run so many different sets to support your team.
- Great check to some of the top threats such as gengar, talonflame, thundurus, charizard mega x, heatran, rotom-h, zapdos.
- Sand stream, one of the best abilities in the game imo, breaks sashes and raises the special defense of ttar. It also helps other pokemon such as excadrill sweep.
- Tyranitar can be used as a sweeper with dragon dance and can make ghost types think twice before switching since pursuit is pretty common.
Roles are definitely tricky, not just for me but in general. Instead of pretty easily being able to say X mom is better than y mon, you have to consider their roles, and which of those works best with the rest of your team, or, if it's your first Poke that you're wanting to build around, which role is just generally superior, perhaps looking to top teams to see what does good(and I guess TTar is on a few of those, saw a post about top BSS people on that joke ban Kang thread where one of the top few teams had a TTar.)
Going off usage stats, TTar is almost always largely if not completely physically based. A little over 89% of them are a -SpA nature. Mega Stone is the most common item, followed by Smooth Stone, Lum Berry, and AV and Choice items-not Specs-all of which are not terribly common. I guess that's some diversity, tho definitely more in moves than good item choices, unlike Chomp for example which is the opposite. TTar is actually a tiny bit more common than Hippo which is surprising and contrary to my experiences(I think,) tho I basically never play on cart(not seeing any reason why TTar should be more popular than Hippo there but not on PS, but I digress.) Lots of ,over options, but it's not supporting teams all that often. Sure, lots run SR, but it's not as good for it as something like Hippo or Ferro which run it more often. Partially cuz they're bulkier, but also be cuz TTar is much more offensive and thus isn't the first choice for a SR setter, I don't think. Only about 14% run t-Wave, and TTar is kinda weird as a phaser with Roar.
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 192-228 (92.7 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Good chance to live considering about 79% of Gengar don't even run FB and it has a 30% to miss, but you can't forget that TTar is liable to run less bulk than this, and thus get KOd if FB hits. Hypnosis sees About the same use as FB, and can shut down non Lum TTar(or really anything,) if it hits, which happens 60% of the time-hardly reliable, but more than half the time. Speaking of non Lum TTar, WoW ruins it, and hits even more often. If nothing else, most Gengar have D-Bond, so they'll at worst be able to trade one for one. That's in your favor cuz it's their mega, but still.
Talonflame can't really be contested. WoW will mess you up against other stuff, but TTar will still KO Talon itself most of the time even burred(unless it's low Atk or misses, which can happen since the stronger rock moves don't have perfect accuracy.)
Thundy does a similar thing to Talon with WoW, but more over it can have FB(25% run it, about.) Offensive Thund KOs with it even more often than Gengar, 87.5% chance on the bulk I used above. It is interesting to note that +2 Grass Knot never OHKOs, and is even not a sure thing with LO, tho, again, idk what bulk TTar typically runs.
Zard X definitely doesn't handle TTar to well without sufficient boosts. Few run EQ or WoW, and Brick Break is extremely rare.
Heatran mostly loses, I agree. specs I used isn't even the most common item, and unlikely to OHKO anyways. A decent number of TTar run EQ or Superpower, and the former OHKOs by a lot while the latter 2HKOs...which can be enough if TTar is faster, tho it'll be at -1 Atk and Def after Heatran falls.
Rotom-H is not good vs TTar for the most part, tho many have WoW which can be a problem. T-Wave isn't much better, and it may be a Trick, which can be bad, especially if it's specs.
Zapdos must also be more of a cart thing, but you definitely do get past it with TTar. All it has is T-Wave, which is only on about 17.6%, and Toxic, which will kill eventually but probably not save Zapdos itself. Lum DD is definitely good here, and perhaps a set to try considering how much it otherwise beats can potentially cripple or even beat it in some cases if it gets off a statue move.
Sand Stream can be really mean, I've had trouble with Excadrill thanks to it. Main thing there is just TTar faces competition from Hippo or the role.
DD has some problems in that it's not that fast after just one boost(especially Adamant, so you may have to sacrifice some power, which is never fun.) Pursuit is decently common(23%), but idk that it'd make ghost types hesitant to switch(assuming the player had a good switch and the ghost in question can't do much. Ofc it's a good thing if people don't expect it, since then they'll switch and you can take them out with Pursuit.
tl;dr I was probably to quick to judge TTar. I think at this point it's mostly just some things should be added to the viability rankings, not much here already ought to be moved. I'm still wary of TTar...tho I guess that's how I am with most stuff with 4x weaknesses. It doesn't mean they're bad, just that I'm extra critical of them cuz 4x weaknesses usually mean that type always kills, as opposed to not all the time like regular weaknesses.
EDIT: lol, that was way too much for basically saying "nvm, you're right."
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It's pretty impressive that ttar has seven weaknesses and still manages to do as well as it does.
Also I don't understand why you think a x4 weaknesses is as big of a deal as you think it is. Plenty of the best pokemon have a x4 weakness yet that doesn't stop them. Landorus, Garchomp, Salamence, Heatran, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc.