Battle Stance

[Enerdy]

Approved by Eevee General

Definitely Not Aegislashmons
​

Ah, Battle Stance. In this metagame, every Pokemon has two distinct battle stances, which will swap their offensive stats with their defensive ones based on the stance they're currently in.

When your Pokemon join the fray, they will be on their Standard Stance. While in Standard Stance, also known as Defensive Stance, Pokemon will have their normal stats and the battle will continue normally as long as your Pokemon doesn't use any offensive moves...

It is when you decide to raise the flag and strike your opponent's Pokemon directly (through the use of a move in the Physical or Special category) that your Pokemon will take on the Reverse Stance. While in Reverse Stance, which may be commonly called Offensive Stance, your Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack stats will be swapped with their Defense and Special Defense stats, respectively.

Pokemon can be brought back to their Standard Stance by switching out or using the moves Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield or King's Shield. Quite a similar effect to the one the ability Stance Change has on the Pokemon Aegislash.

Naturally, some Pokemon will be turned upside down by this Metagame! Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Shuckle are subject to raise their ranks, while common offensive Pokemon like Landorus-T and Scizor will get substantially weaker at performing the role of attackers. Some Pokemon might even find a new niche, such as Special Attacker Kecleon!

Standard OU Bans and Clauses will apply. Bans/unbans will be done as necessary.

As a final note, yes, Aegislash is not affected by the Stance Clause, which makes him as good as he is in normal OU, but his current placement in Ubers will not allow him to join his own game. :/

Special thanks to the Pet Mod Aegislash'd by unfixable, as although I wasn't aware of it until I submitted this, it still gave birth to stances.

 

[xJownage]

so now we have 50/50s, the meta....I like it.

Defensive mons with good attacking movepools love this, and this meta will be the pinnacle of bulky offense, just like how aegislash did in OU.

 

[Akumeoy]

So do the in-game stats swap or the base stats swap? If I want an physically offensive Pokemon, should I invest EVs in its Defense or Attack? I could just go by what Aegislash does, but this isn't Aegislashmons.

Also, setup will be good here, what with lots of Protects flying around. Low speed will also be a boon on offensive Pokemon, as they can take a hit and then retaliate back against their opponent's (probably) weaker defenses. Notably, Shuckle is the slowest Pokemon that will get the best offenses, and also Shell Smash. Run Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Pikachuun]

So do the in-game stats swap or the base stats swap? If I want an physically offensive Pokemon, should I invest EVs in its Defense or Attack? I could just go by what Aegislash does, but this isn't Aegislashmons.

Also, setup will be good here, what with lots of Protects flying around. Low speed will also be a boon on offensive Pokemon, as they can take a hit and then retaliate back against their opponent's (probably) weaker defenses. Notably, Shuckle is the slowest Pokemon that will get the best offenses, and also Shell Smash. Run Will-O-Wisp.

This will have the same mechanics as Aegislash, so Base Stats swap.

 

[Enerdy]

This will have the same mechanics as Aegislash, so Base Stats swap.

That's right! The only mechanical difference is the addiction of Protect, Detect and Spiky Shield to the list of defense stance triggering moves.

 

[canno]

Cresselia looks pretty decent here. Unlike Shuckle Cress actually has a really good HP stat.

Pretty neat meta.

 

[FlameUser64]

So Pokémon who normally have terrifying offensive stats are suddenly terribad, lol.

Random thoughts:
gdi Azumarill. Base 80 Attack with Huge Power.

Specially-offensive Gallade new meta. Notably, it takes physical hits really well in offensive stance and really poorly in defensive stance, but the reverse is true of special attacks.

Ferrothorn will own this meta.

Latias just became better than Latios in every way. Poor Latios. Meanwhile, Mega Latias can actually sort of make use of Sucker Punch and Earthquake.

Non-Mega Diancie though. Basically works the same as Aegislash did.

Oh crap Mega Metagross. It's a small boost, but still a boost.

Unban Deoxys-Attack imo. lol.

Also make an Ubers version of this so Lugia can rule everything.

Zygarde looks like it might be almost good in this meta!

Oh crap Mega Aggron is here to kill us all.

Double oh crap freakin' Cloyster.

Suicune = awesome.

Florges has dem stats tho. 154 base Sp. Atk in offensive stance.

Bronzong = skill.

Cobalion = awesome.

Claydol = maybe skill? Certainly has stats.

Offensive Umbreon new meta.

Doublade tho.

Drapion = 123 base Sp. Atk Adaptability Draco/Sludge Wave.

Regirock and Registeel tho. Regice too, but it's still terrible because it's Ice-type.

 

[Mareep Sweep]

Deoxys-Speed Trick Room team anyone? yes i know deoxys is banned

 

[Esprite]

Cloyster does seem terrifying, Smash in defense mode, rape everything with +2 180 base attack, and effectively OP moves that ignore Sub.

 

[ThePipmaster]

So Pokémon who normally have terrifying offensive stats are suddenly terribad, lol.
Drapion = 123 base Sp. Atk Adaptability Draco/Sludge Wave.

You mean Dragalge, right?
Even if that's not what you meant, whew, yeah dragalge
The other notable Adapt users are awful though. Crawdaunt, Beedrill...

Serp has usable offensive stats!

 

[Froggyboy]

Mega Slowbro looks pretty threatening in this meta. Upon mega evolution and switching to attack mode, it gets a huge attack stat of 180. With an Brave nature and max EVs, it gets an total of 504 attack. That is equal to Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza's total attack, and it is higher than every Pokemon in OU except for M-Heracross. With this sky high attack, it hits super hard, and under trick room, it outspeeds most mons that threaten it. It even gets a good boosting move in Curse.

Mega Scizor now has a few more toys to play with here in this meta. While it loses 10 base attack, it gets a usable 100 SpA, along with Silver Wind, Vaccum Wave, and Hidden Power.

Diggersby now when attacking has 77 base attack. Combined with Huge Power, it reaches 556 attack. Combined with its high powered STAB moves, priority, and strong coverage moves, Diggersby is now even more of a threat.

I feel stall is going to be dominant in this meta, so many stallbreakers are now dead since they have pitiful attack stats, and their use is usually being defensive now.

Possible unbans would be: Skymin, when attacking, it has only 75 offensive attacks, making its flinching much less annoying, and Grass/Flying is a rather crappy defensive type. Greninja, is much weaker when attacking, and while Protean kind of makes up for that, it is still not the threat it was after the Megamence ban. Other than that, I think we're fine. Deoxys Attack would just be a Deoxys-Defense with no offensive presence, but it still gets Seismic Toss for damage. But I guess we could try it out.

 

[FlameUser64]

You mean Dragalge, right?
Even if that's not what you meant, whew, yeah dragalge
The other notable Adapt users are awful though. Crawdaunt, Beedrill...

Serp has usable offensive stats!

Yeah, Dragalge. lol

 

[xJownage]

Stall would be winning here??? I think offense has more than its fair shot in this meta. Dragalge is only the beginning of a plethora of powerful wallbreakers and sweepers. I can only imagine the terror that is cursebro, as well as many other threats offensively (cloyster) that can rip stall to shreds given half the chance.

Replaced by defensive mons with good offensive abilities, I would say.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Uhh so based on Aegislash mechanics, the slower the poke, the better?

How would this work?

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Bonemerang
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

 

[Teeny Victory]

I feel this meta would have alot of toxic at in it, as earthing is going to use protect so why not use toxic as well? And then we have all the 50-50s... Gliscor I feel will be really good because of this, it gets a sky high base 145 (I think?) attack when attacking, so it could run its really good SD set which is gaining alot of popularity lately and wreck stall even more (haha die in a fiery death stall)

 

[Enerdy]

I feel this meta would have alot of toxic at in it, as earthing is going to use protect so why not use toxic as well? And then we have all the 50-50s... Gliscor I feel will be really good because of this, it gets a sky high base 145 (I think?) attack when attacking, so it could run its really good SD set which is gaining alot of popularity lately and wreck stall even more (haha die in a fiery death stall)

Gliscor only has a base defense of 125, so it wouldn't be as shocking, but still fairly effective.

 

[Blumenwitz]

I can see Gourgeist kicking some ass in this meta. An unblockable STAB move coming off of 122 base Atk is pretty nasty.

 

[Phione]

Uhh so based on Aegislash mechanics, the slower the poke, the better?

How would this work?

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Bonemerang
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Why would you use Rock Head when you have no recoil moves? I would think Battle Armor is better in this scenario.

Also lel Deoxys-A has 20/20 offenses when attacking and 20/20 defenses when defending.

Physically offensive Goodra new meta

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm somewhat bemused at people crapping on Deoxys Attack when it substantially outspeeds most of the meta, most of what does outspeed it is sort of irrelevant because their stats are offensively oriented and therefore their stats turn out crap, and Deoxys Attack can simply open with a Seismic Toss to go into "lol I'm better than Standard Deoxys Defense in every way" mode. It's not like Status moves in general force you into your standard mode, so it's an amazingly fast wall whose only flaws are 1: difficulty switching in and 2: vulnerable to priority until it does get that first Seismic Toss off.

Amusingly enough, all Huge Power/Pure Power users except Mega Medicham hit even harder in this meta. (Mega Medicham still hits harder than regular Medicham, but only a little bit, because it only has 10 Defense over Medicham vs 40 extra Attack) Azumarill's Belly Drum sweep is more terrifying than ever when its Aqua Jets have gotten effectively another 60 base Attack.

Mega Tyranitar is going to be horrible and I am going to make sure to pack Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave on my first team. 164 Defense while it Dragon Dances up that becomes 164 Attack when it hits you? Ugh. Not even getting into all the grossly lethal Rock and/or Steel types out there...

Oh by the way Hitmontop has 110 Special Defense, Vacuum Wave, and Technician. Hmmm.

 

[Enerdy]

I'm somewhat bemused at people crapping on Deoxys Attack when it substantially outspeeds most of the meta, most of what does outspeed it is sort of irrelevant because their stats are offensively oriented and therefore their stats turn out crap, and Deoxys Attack can simply open with a Seismic Toss to go into "lol I'm better than Standard Deoxys Defense in every way" mode. It's not like Status moves in general force you into your standard mode, so it's an amazingly fast wall whose only flaws are 1: difficulty switching in and 2: vulnerable to priority until it does get that first Seismic Toss off.

This is the kind of analysis I wanted someone to bring up. A few offensive-oriented Pokemon can actually become good walls by running an offensive move to switch stances and then proceed to stall.

Mega Tyranitar is going to be horrible and I am going to make sure to pack Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave on my first team. 164 Defense while it Dragon Dances up that becomes 164 Attack when it hits you? Ugh. Not even getting into all the grossly lethal Rock and/or Steel types out there...

That's incorrect, and for a simple reason: His base stats are 164 in Attack and 150 in Defense. This means that when he attacks, he gets 150 Attack and 164 Defense, so unless he leads with an offensive move and then Dragon Dances, that won't be happening (and even if he does, he'll still attack with only 150 Attack, mhm).

The above is why I generalized the stances as Standard and Reverse instead of Attack and Defense, as they may not match entirely.. :p.

 

[Ghoul King]

Actually, I was just flat-out mis-remembering which stat was 164. I got the premise (And appreciate the terminology, in fact), I'm just a derp lately.

Anyway, Deoxys Attack stood out to me (Aside from people loling at it without actually giving it any thought) just because Deoxys Defense already runs Seismic Toss in Standard, so once you get past that initial turn hurdle you're a super-min-maxed Deoxys Defense with lots of Speed, where a lot of "I'm Stall in Reverse Mode" Pokemon might not want to run any attacking move at all, and thus end up resenting the need to have one. (I'm thinking of how, in Stat Switch, Aegislash got unbanned because it's horribly screwed over and has to run Shadow Sneak to get into its proper defensive mode. Now take that principle, and imagine a Pokemon that wants 4 moves... none of which are attacking moves... to do its Stall thing) Deoxys Attack only resents the danger/turn burden (You can't just toss out Spikes right away) involved in reaching its defensive mode.

 

[canno]

But Deo-D wasn't banned for its ability to wall - it was banned because it was Deo-S lite in terms of hazards. That being said, Deo-A/N should probably stay banned because they can do what Deo-S half-did - Hazard Stack for days.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Please Ban this thing

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy/Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 248 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA or 252 Atk / 248 HP / 8 Def
Brave / Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Fire / Knock Off
- Protect

Seriously, this thing is ridiculous. It has increadibly slow speed that makes it guaranteed to only take a hit when it's increadibly bulky as well as the chance to hit anything in it's less bulky form, sky high attacking stats, nice coverage (And it can do great stuff with it too), the ability to break subs, and is overall just stupid (It can also make itself immune to Intimidate if it runs Contrary)

Just look at this power:
252+ Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also I really don't think Deoxys-A should be unbanned

Deoxys-Attack @ Mental Herb
Abillity: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 132 SpD
Timid / Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss / Extreme Speed
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave / Taunt

Deoxys-Attack may not be a great attacker anymore, but it's still broken, just for a different reason. This set is basically Deoxys-D on steroids, with incredible speed, more bulk, and the same ability to set up hazards as well as Deoxys-D did. Really the only thing that it has that Deoxys-D doesn't have is the ability to use all 4 of its moveslots, since it needs to use an attack to get into the form it wants to be in (But the same thing goes for most of the meta)

As for what I believe should be unbanned, I am thinking Mega Lucario, Genesect, Aegislash, and maybe Shaymin-Sky

 

[Ghoul King]

DON'T UNBAN DEOXYS ATTACK

... nobody was suggesting it be unbanned? There were people saying "lol it sucks" and my response was "Not really" and that's about it.

But Deo-D wasn't banned for its ability to wall - it was banned because it was Deo-S lite in terms of hazards.

OK. My own point was that Reverse Mode Deoxys Attack is 100% superior to Standard Deoxys Defense... I'm not sure why you're saying this at all, given no one talked about "stallmon potential" or anything...

As for what I believe should be unbanned, I am thinking Mega Lucario, Genesect, Aegislash, and maybe Shaymin-Sky

I don't really see Shaymin-Sky myself, since it has enough bulk+Leech Seed after an attack that it's realistically plausible for it to just Leech Seed+Air Slash spam to win that way against things it shouldn't win against.

I'm also not following the logic for unbanning Aegislash. It explicitly behaves as normal, so unless you're anticipating the entire meta pulling itself up to catch up in specific, I don't see it.

Genesect: yeah. Its offense is now kind of crappy and its bulk isn't that impressive in Reverse Mode (71 HP holds it back), and in particular the whole "Scarfed Genesect is really dangerous but not all Genesect are Scarfed" thing is not particularly relevant.

I absolutely agree about Mega Lucario though. Its offense is now a joke, Adaptability or no.

Some other Ubers worth talking about...

-Mega Gengar has crap offense, and is still crap Physical bulk. Its Special bulk is actually pretty amazing though. Perish Trap sets are still going to be really, really good.

-Say hello to Mega Stalltwo X and Y! And regular Stalltwo, for that matter.

-Mega Rayquaza: The Great Wall Of Hoenn. Now if only it got Roost...

-Mega Blaziken has crap offense, and has to attack before it can get to its OK bulk stage. (And it still only has 80 HP) Still useful as a Baton Passer, though.

-Kyurem-White has crap offense. (Less crap than Mega Blaziken) In fact, it only has 10 more Special Attack in Reverse Mode than regular Kyurem, and identical Attack. It's not even clearly superior to regular Kyurem as a wall because it lacks Pressure.

-Mega Kangaskhan takes a modest hit to its Attack. It also equalizes its Attack with its Special Attack, so Special or mixed sets might crop up. (Maybe)

-Giratina-Altered and Origin have each other's stats in Reverse Mode. Just something amusing.

Other Ubers tend to have sufficiently similar Attack/Defense and/or Special Attack/Special Defense that its a change, but not a fundamental shift in their role/quality. Or are Deoxys, and that's already been talked about.

 

[canno]

OK. My own point was that Reverse Mode Deoxys Attack is 100% superior to Standard Deoxys Defense... I'm not sure why you're saying this at all, given no one talked about "stallmon potential" or anything...

This is my bad, I assumed you meant more in-line with the bulky spike set I know some people ran, but in hindsight that set isn't really that bad either - its just that from experience I found the offensive one much more offensive

~~~

As for other potential unbans, I wouldn't under estimate Adaptability...

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (that's with 88 base Attack - finally, those defense boosts have a use! (that's an exaggeration of course))
252 Atk Life Orb Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...actually that's weak as fuck, nevermind. Admittingly it fairs better than most other old attackers, but yeah. It's main STAB Close Combat even destroys the great bulk it would have after attacking!

Also no, Skymin would still wreck shit hard. Yes its weak but Seed Flare turns it into a bulkmon. A fast bulkmon. That can flinch 60% with Air Slash. Remember this thing still has 127 speed. No thanks, meta.

Aegislash would be fun to bring back. iirc it was mainly banned for being "centralizing" and causing too many 50/50s, but now that the whole meta is a 50/50 I think it warrents at least a suspect. It still holds King's Shield over the other mons though, and its stats are basically perfect for this, so it might still be borked but hey.

Also #freegreninja