Beginner's Ubers Team

[twc]

Update: I have shuffled the team around a bit, and with a bit of practice, reached the #4 position on PO. Now, admittedly, this doesn't count for much as most of the really good players have already given up.

Following some lurking around on this forum, I finally decided to give competitive battling a shot. I decided to build a team around Ho-Oh, because I read that using Ho-Oh essentially requires Groudon and Forretress as well, making team-building easier. I use the following team on Pokemon Online (because Shoddy requires Java).

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin

Originally, I lead with a Groudon, but letting Deoxys-S set up multiple layers was definitely setting me off to a bad start. Instead, Forretress beats most Deoxys-S, keeping Stealth Rock off the field from turn 1. Sadly, I find that I can't usually get both Spikes and Toxic Spikes up.

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 136 Def / 60 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Impish Groudon serves as my main physical check, being never OHKOd by Rayquaza's Outrage, Lucario's +2 Close Combat, or 2HKOd by +2 Arceus' ExtremeSpeed. Although Groudon can't really do much back to Arceus except forcing him out with Roar, the extra hazards damage is often enough to prevent it from coming back to seriously harm my team.

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Roost

The team's primary offensive component, as well as an emergency check to special sweepers. Originally a SubRoost set, I found my team seriously weak to Heatran, which Earthquake has helped to remedy. Unfortunately, this means I can no longer stall or block status, reducing the number of ways Ho-Oh can switch in.

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Spd / 128 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Roar

Checks Latias/Latios and Palkia in the Sun, Giratina-O and Ho-Oh lacking Earthquake, and defeats walls like Lugia, Blissey, and Giratina. Also gives many CM Arceus formes a hard time, which is always nice.

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Spacial Rend
- Fire Blast/Earth Power
- Thunder

Revenge killer and primary Kyogre check. Earth Power is slashed over Fire Blast as it can OHKO 252/128 Heatran after Stealth Rock damage, since Heatran is very dangerous to a sun-abusing team. Draco Meteor is needed to OHKO Darkrai, Mewtwo, and Latias/Latios.

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 100 HP / 8 Atk / 100 Def / 100 Spd / 100 SAtk / 100 SDef
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Judgment
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Better than Great Wall Giratina in almost every way. While a second physical wall may seem unnecessary, Groudon can only really do its job once due to lack of recovery. With many teams packing multiple Swords Dancers, a backup is vitally important. Although risky, Will-o-wisp can utterly shut down an otherwise dangerous threat.


Alternate Members:

I sometimes run this pair over Heatran and Palkia, as it has its own advantages. Scarf Jirachi's U-turn is very helpful in scouting, and Latias is able to defeat CM Kyogre, which Palkia can not. Scizor becomes a problem when using these though.

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- U-turn
- Trick

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 112 HP / 192 Spd / 204 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Recover
- Grass Knot

[The following doesn't really apply anymore.]
I've managed to get my rating on PO up to around 1200, past the players who obviously aren't trying, but I haven't been able to get much higher. I find that I'm just not prepared for a lot of heavier sweepers, which really tear a hole through my team when I get out-predicted (easily). I've also never beaten a stall team, as they keep PHazing and spin blocking me until I die.

 

[twc]

Threat List:

KYOGRE: Facing leads is especially problematic, as they can surprise Palkia with a nasty Thunder Wave. That said, choiced sweepers can usually be taken care of, with only the CM ones needing major sacrifices to handle.

Groudon: Supporting Groudon is not much of an offensive threat, and it can be taken out by Palkia after some damage. SD and RP variants can be forced out by my own Groudon. SD+RP sweepers are nearly impossible to stop, though.

Rayquaza: Arceus and Groudon check SD and DD, respectively. Mixquaza can be revenge killed after it has used Draco Meteor.

Salamence: Not usually a problem. Same deal as Rayquaza, mostly.

Palkia: Under the sun, Ho-Oh can wall it. Heatran can also stall it out, unless it's packing a Ground move for some reason. Bulk-Up ones can catch me by surprise, though that just means my own Palkia outspeeds for the OHKO.

DIALGA: This is problematic. Mixed Quiet versions are stopped by Ho-Oh, as long as he doesn't end up taking a Thunder Wave. Other versions have to be worn down. Bulk-Up Dialga is very hard for my team to take down, due to a lack of special sweepers.

ARCEUS: Normal-type ExtremeKiller shouldn't be a problem, but the Ghost SD version is much tricker. Thankfully, due to the EV restriction, it is slow and can be contained. Ho-Oh stops most CM sweepers, and the ones that beat him (Rock/Electric) can be checked in an emergency by Groudon.

Mewtwo: Ho-Oh stops this unless it uses Selfdestruct. Palkia and Arceus can OHKO as long as it hasn't gotten a CM yet.

Wobbuffet: Not really counterable. Custap Destiny Bond can be troublesome if it switches into Ho-Oh.

Giratina: Heatran stops this. Ho-Oh can also 3HKO with Brave Bird, but I usually won't try that.

Giratina-O: More dangerous, but it can also be stopped by Heatran. Shadow Sneak only does about 60% to Arceus, so that also works in a pinch.

Darkrai: I usually allow Forretress or Groudon to take the Dark Void, depending on how late in the game it is. Palkia then revenge kills with Draco Meteor (~90% chance of OHKO). Ho-Oh can also stop it unless I get unlucky with a flinch.

Garchomp: Groudon stops this, and Arceus can burn it if really necessary.

Latias/Latios: Heatran and Forretress can wear them down with Toxic and Payback. Palkia can revenge kill with Draco Meteor.

HO-OH: Enemy Ho-Oh are surprisingly difficult to stop. If it runs Substitute, Heatran counters it. Otherwise, I have to suicide my own Ho-Oh for a double kill with Brave Bird.

Shaymin-S: Non-scarfed variants can be checked by Palkia. Otherwise, Heatran and Ho-Oh do a pretty good job of stopping flinchers.

MEW: Due to my team's below average speed, there's not much that can be done except stalling out the recipient.

Lugia: Heatran beats this. Otherwise, it's a matter of stalling it out.

Manaphy: This is not a problem unless it happens to be raining. In that case, I try to switch Groudon into a predicted Rest. If Groudon has been taken out, it's pretty much game over though.

Deoxys-A: With its sash broken, it's vulnerable to revenge kill by Palkia. Leads often don't carry HP Fire and can be beaten by Forretress.

Deoxys-S: Forretress beats this unless it uses Trick, Fire Punch, or HP Fire. If it does, then I'm definitely starting the game off on the wrong foot.

Deoxys-D: It can't do a thing to Heatran and Forretress.

Scizor: Almost everybody on my team has a fire move, and only Arceus is "weak" to Pursuit, so it's not getting anywhere.

HEATRAN: This is harder to stop than one might think. In the sun, it has only two weaknesses, and neither of them are easy to exploit, considering its sun-boosted Fire Blast.

Abomasnow: I usually see this as a lead. Forretress sets up Toxic Spikes against it, and the rest of my team takes care of it with Fire-type attacks.

Tyranitar: Groudon beats it. Forretress can set up on certain types.

Rain sweepers: They can't sweep if the sun is up. Again, stopping Kyogre is key.

Sun sweepers: Jumpluff is majorly annoying, but Forretress stalls it out unless it has HP Fire (in which case, some creative switching stalls it out). The rest can't really get past Ho-Oh.

Blissey: Heatran and Forretress set up on it.

Forretress: Arceus prevents spin and defeats it with Flamethrower.

Skarmory: Heatran shuts this down, and Forretress spins away its hazards.


Please let me know if there is a deficiency in my list or in my strategy so that I can correct it.

 

[Scimjara]

Hello TWC congrats on making your first Ubers team, I have a few suggestions that may help your team out!

After looking through your team and your threat list. I can guarantee you that Ho-Oh isn't doing as much as you wished it did for your team. By having Ho-Oh on this team it just causes you to be pressured and put into a defensive position against threats such as Rayquaza, Palkia, Dialga, and Giritina-O. As well as putting you in a stressful position where you have to get off a Rapid Spin with Forretress so Ho-Oh doesn't have to deal with the harsh 4x SR damage.

I would suggest you use Wish Support Jirachi instead of Choice Scarf. This provides your team an effective Wish Passer. These type of Jirachi's generally work well with entry hazards used on your team so powerful sweepers such as Kyogre and Rayquaza will get worn down quite easily, so the Wish support is greatly appreciated to help keep many of your pokemon alive and provide overall longevity. This has no trouble against Scizor since you easily take any of it's attacks and Wish pass to a sweeper that can take it out. If you still feel insecure against Scizor you can always try to use HP Fire on Latias over Thunder and under sun light it is appreciated. Toxic on Jirachi helps you deal with pokemon like Giritina and origin form as well as Lugia with Wish+Protect in the same move set toxic stalling these pokemon would be quite easy. If you switch your Jirachi's moveset then you should likely use Choice Scarf Garchomp over Ho-Oh to revenge kill threats such as Dialga, Rayquaza, Palkia, and Giritina-O. Also providing you an electric resist. By using Scarf Garchomp you can actually deal some damage to Bulk Up Dialga with Earthquake and revenge kill with another pokemon while CS Jirachi and it's move set is just set up bait.

Jirachi @ Leftovers | Serene Grace
Careful | 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Wish | Protect | U-turn | Toxic

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf | Sand Viel
Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Outrage | Earthquake | Dragon Claw | Stone Edge
---
Good Luck

 

[twc]

@Scimjara: Thank you for your advice. Although the original point of the team was to attempt to use Ho-Oh effectively, I will try your changes. However, how do you recommend I retaliate against set-up sweepers like RP Groudon, CM sweepers, and ExtremeKiller Normal/Ghost Arceus? I feel that Latias and Giratina are the only things stopping me from a 6-0 sweep, and they are unable to handle Ghost SD Arceus.

Edit: After applying your changes, it seems I no longer have any Fire-type attacks to strike Scizor with...

Edit2: I'm also a bit wary of having Latias be my only special sweeper. Are there any others that I could add?

Edit3: I don't think your suggestions are working, Scimjara. Without Ho-Oh, the team has almost no offensive presence. However, I like your suggestion of Toxic to stall out Lugia and Giratina, which I will try to work in somewhere.

 

[eValentino]

TWC, there's a reason your team has no offensive power.

It's stall.

A Groudon lead, a Forretress, a Wish-passing Jirachi, and a Giratina scream stall, which is oriented around wearing the opponent down. Personally, I think you should replace Ho-Oh with a Toxic/Screening Lugia. I'm not a stall player at all though.

If stall wasn't your goal in the first place, give my RMT (link in the sig) a read. It was very successful and has a strong offensive orientation.

 

[twc]

@eValentino:

You're probably right. I've found that most matches either involve me stalling the opponent out with Roost + Sub on Ho-Oh or with Groudon + Latias. I was indeed trying for offense (I read that Ho-Oh was supposed to be devastating), but the Rain team in your RMT is too different. As a new player, I'd really like to "perfect" what I have before trying new frontiers.

Since you say that you're not experienced with stall, perhaps someone else could give me pointers on how to convert my team to full-stall. (Or how to fix it.)

 

[calze6]

Run 36 Spd and Stone edge on groudon to deal with ho-oh. Try a haban giratina with a more offensive moveset + EV spread (hasty 252SAtk/252Spd) with draco meteor to deal with your weaknesses.

 

[eValentino]

I think I'd take Calze6's suggestion one step farther and suggest that you run a Giratina-O if you really want offense, but he can't carry a Haban so that's up to you.

Ho-oh is definitely not devastating. Re-reading your RMT, it sounds like it was built mostly on theorymon (no offense to the user of the same name =] ), which is okay for starters, but you will really need to play and play to see what works. In my experience, Ho-Oh simply does not work.

I guess you have two options really. To go full-on stall, read Jibaku's RMT here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57681

It's over a year old, so it's a little outdated in today's metagame (I'm sure a good stall player like Jibaku could still win with it), but Jibaku's stall ideas and team are still among the best ever.

Your second option is, of course, to go towards a more offensive nature. This is much more my field, so I can give you a lot better advice. (Note: I'm not inexperienced with stall - I've battled plenty of battles against stall and know very well how to beat it. It's just that I've never actually made a stall team, though I have something like it in the works.) You want a sun team, so here goes.

Keep your lead Groudon, duh (tip: if you want a really, really slow Groudon, give it a 0 Spd IV). Do not give him Sunny Day. I have encountered a Sunny Day Groudon in Ubers. I am not lying, and needless to say I 6-0'd that team. Just thought I'd share. =] Make sure he stays alive, as Kyogre is literally everywhere in the metagame.

Next, I'd replace Latias with a Wobbuffet. If you need a Kyogre check, Latias is excellent, but Scizor will absolutely destroy her. Wobbuffet traps and Mirror Coats for the KO.

You call Jirachi "filler." No member of your team should ever be filler. If you want a solid Fire resist and a more offensive member, use a Palkia (either Scarf, Specs, or Lustrous Orb, depending on what you prefer). 1/4 Fire resistance and 150 SAtk sound like exactly what your team needs.

OMG your Wish-passer is gone! Swap Giratina for a Wish-passing Blissey with Toxic and Protect.

Ho-Oh still really bothers me, but if you insist on using him, at least give the damn thing a Life Orb.

Hope this helps, whatever path you choose to follow with your team!

EDIT: Also, don't worry about needing an Arceus check. Arceus is totally banned in standard Ubers play (i.e. if you stop playing on Pokemon Online).

 

[twc]

EDIT: Also, don't worry about needing an Arceus check. Arceus is totally banned in standard Ubers play (i.e. if you stop playing on Pokemon Online).

If I'm not mistaken, won't Arceus be allowed whenever Shoddy Battle 2 is released? If so, learning to play around it is totally relevant, which is part of the reason I'm on PO (a dislike for Java is the other reason).

Also, I am completely open to replacing Ho-Oh, and I will try your suggestions out.

 

[giggity69]

Hey, I did get your PM but I have been pretty busy. I will get you a rate soon, though.

 

[calze6]

Giratina-o dies to palkia dialga and ray while giratina doesn't.

 

[giggity69]

Honestly, Groudon is a pretty poor lead in today's metagame. It fails to prevent deoxys-S from getting SR + Spikes down, and looses to nearly every opposing lead bar some dialga and maybe darkrai, so my first suggestion is to move groudon out of the lead spot (Don't forget to change the EV spread accordingly! I will post it for reference later). Seeing as how you already have a forretress on the team, you could very well just move it to the lead slot, allowing you to beat the ever present deo-s lead, as well as lay your own hazards early on if presented with a favorable match-up, like an opposing groudon.

(For reference)

Groudon @ Leftovers
Adamant 252HP/156Atk//32Def/44Spe/26SpD

Earthquake
Stone Edge/Dragon Claw
Thunder wave/Toxic
Stealth Rock

As much as you wanted to make a Ho-oh based team, I honestly think that he is kind of meh nowadays; he is usually a bit of a pain and is kind of hard to kill, but generally he does not do a whole lot more than annoy your opponent for a bit, let alone sweep or stall. Replacing him with something like a mixed Rayquaza, Palkia, or Dialga could really open holes in your opponents team, as well as really abuse any layers forre may have accumulated by virtue of forcing switches. Rayquaza would Probbaly be the best fit for your team, especially with rapid spin support from forre. Also, Ray would be able to revenge weakened things like darkrai and palkia with Extremespeed, and that is always helpful.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Hasty 40Atk/252SpA/216Spe

Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Extremespeed
Brick Break/Outrage/Earthquake

If you are really that worried about scizor trapping Latias, you can drop calm mind for HP [fire], which would destroy it assuming the rain is not up. Just make sure to move 4 EVs from HP to speed to make up for the imperfect IV.

Seeing that you have a forretress, a spinblocker is necessary, but Giratina-A is a horrible, horrible, horrible spinblock. It does keep your hazards on the field, BUT it does nothing at all to prevent an opposing forretress (Or really anything else that does not mind Will-o-wisp or dragon claw) from setting up layer after layer. Giratina-O is essentially better in every way, at least offensively speaking. I highly suggest making the switch, and it would also give you another priority uses along with rayquaza, should you choose to use it.

Giratina-O @ Platinum Orb
248Atk/64SpA/196Spe

Draco Meteor
HP [Fire]
Shadow Sneak
Outrage/Earthquake

That is all I have at the moment as far as changes are concerned, but it you want, PM me and I would be happy to discuss playstyle and strategy with you if you are wanting to improve further. Oh, and with forre, you just need to get one layer at a time, don't expect to get 5 layers all at once; just look for an outrage/ice beam/dragon pulse/etc. and switch in.

Good Luck

Edit: If you are preparing for an arceus involved metagame, why aren't you using one??

 

[lordkira]

If you're playing with he Farceuses, an adamant extremekiller with +2 shadow claw with life orb will 2HKO your giratina (even the great wall with the bold nature). I wouldn't say your giratina walls it though ;/

 

[crims0nst4rz]

Erm to remedy the arceus threat, scizor is often the best bet (despite Smogon's Arceus page saying it does not have any true counter) It can usually beat Arceus 1v1 as long as it has taken LO recoil damage, as 252 Atk Adamant CB Scizor's Superpower deals 83.3% - 98% to Arceus while none of Arceus's attacks can OHKO Scizor after a SD. Although I dont see much synergy between Scizor and your team. Also note that I use the OU Scizor set instead of the Ubers Scizor

 

[lordkira]

While it's true Scizor can come about as a handy check to SOME arceus sets, it's definitely not as threatening to be honest. Scizor won't come out victorious against the ExtremeKiller variant even (since you're talking about the SD variant I guess for normal type). Overheat from an adamant Arceus (even without any EVs) will deal 112% - 132.9% to Scizor and it's a OHKO always. Also, while it's true CB superpower can do some nice damage, there are many other pokemons that can do just as much damage but are just faster. in 1v1 situation, due to speed problem, Scizor is not beating the overheat from the arceus. Also, not all ExtremeKiller have LO so it's hard to put that into an account.

 

[twc]

giggity69: Thanks a lot for your suggestions, they've really helped me out. In addition to your advice, I've put a CS Heatran over Jirachi, as it abuses the sun pretty well. As for Arceus, I'm not running one because I'm not sure which one would be most helpful -- Rayquaza seems to have SD/ExtremeKiller's role covered, and Latias does CM alright. (The advice on Forretress was spot-on: I was being overly ambitious with the spikes.) The team seems a little weak to Dialga, Groudon, and Ho-Oh though, but perhaps I'm not playing right.

eValentino: I tried some of your suggestions out, though it felt like it pushed the team even more towards stall. CS Palkia seems to check Kyogre more reliably than Latias though, so I'll see what I can do about that.

Edit: Rayquaza is just way too hard to get in. I'm sticking with Ho-Oh, who despite the SR weakness, walls a surprisingly large number of ubers. The team's gotten me to the top 25 on PO, so I figure I'm doing *something* right.

 

[mtr]

Against good players, this team would work better on shoddy than PO, since PO is an Arceus metagame, and everybody leads with Deoxys-S (which Groudon suffers against).

Anyways, it looks like a fairly standard stallish team, so you're doing fine. But Ho-oh NEEDS a Life Orb to work as a stallbreaker, otherwise it's just too weak in my experience. With a Life Orb, you beat all Giratina bar Outrage variants. Without a Life Orb, you get utterly walled by them.

Make Jirachi a Wishpasser to at least try to help Forry and Groudon survive. This will also be a more reliable Palkia check. I don't really see what Scarf Jirachi does here anyways, since Groudon should be your initial Rayquaza switch-in unless you expect a MixRay.

Against Giratina-O, you shouldn't have many problems if you can get Latias in on a predicted Hidden Power Fire (vs Forry), but you need to win the prediction game against it, after all it is a stallbreaker.

Again, I'm not preparing for an Arceus metagame, if you wanted to play in one you would use Skarmory over Forretress, ditch Ho-oh for a stallbreaker like SteelCeus, make Latias a Wishpasser, dump Jirachi for something else, and maybe drop Giratina for Giratina-O.

 

[lordkira]

If you are willing to use an Arceus, I actually recommend the ExtremeKiller.
Even as a SD+ES user, I see Arceus being the superior option over SDRay just because of the sheer power the stab ES with SD (even with the jolly nature).

Since you already have the Stealth Rocker and a Spiker, I strongly recommend the jolly-natured ExtremeKiller since a layer of spikes along with SR makes adamant's power advantage negligible.

I'd replace MixQuaza with Arceus.

 

[twc]

I've made some pretty heavy changes to this, and with Gen V already out, I doubt I'll be playing much more Ubers. That said, I think I deserve a bump to see if there are any last adjustments to be made (and I am under no illusion that this is in any way perfect).