Gen 1 Beginner's (Un)luck (RBY OU Warstory)

[magic9mushroom]

(This is my first warstory, so advice on presentation would be appreciated.)

magic9mushroom's Light Brigade:

Redemption's team:

Battle between Redemption and magic9mushroom started!

Tier: RBY OU
Mode: Singles
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Freeze Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Variation: +25, -7

Redemption sent out Starmie!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

Start of turn 1
magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Starmie used Blizzard!
Chansey lost 97 HP! (13% of its health)

----------
If he's leading with Starmie, it has Blizzard. No point taking a hit from that. I'm trying to hide my Amnesialax, and since basically every team has Chansey, I give away less by switching to it than to Zam. Now, Starmie is going to switch out, so I use Ice Beam in hopes of freezing something relevant.
----------

Start of turn 2
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Snorlax!

Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Snorlax lost 18% of its health!

----------
Lax. I feel this is worth sleeping, so I switch my Egg back in.
----------

Start of turn 3
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam!
Exeggutor lost 120 HP! (30% of its health)
Exeggutor is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 4
The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam!
Exeggutor lost 121 HP! (30% of its health)

Exeggutor used Sleep Powder!
The foe's Snorlax fell asleep!

----------
Snorlax is asleep, but my Egg is paralysed and on low health. Time to use Rest!
----------

Start of turn 5
Redemption called Snorlax back!
Redemption sent out Starmie!

Exeggutor used Rest!
Exeggutor went to sleep and became healthy!

----------
I use Rest and Double-Edge on my Egg so that it can wake up against Zam and possibly force it out. Of course, Redemption didn't have Zam, so Egg stayed asleep for the whole battle.
----------

Start of turn 6
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Alakazam!

----------
If I'd predicted that switch, I could have gotten Egg one turn closer to waking up, but leaving a sleeping Egg in on a Blizzard Starmie would be way too risky. I was scared of bringing in Chansey again lest he switch to a physical, so I bring out Alakazam. Now, I'm probably not going to kill Chansey with my Zam, but I'll certainly paralyse it - I'll be able to use its paralysis to my advantage later.
----------

Start of turn 7
Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Alakazam lost 58 HP! (18% of its health)

Start of turn 8
Alakazam used Psychic!
The foe's Chansey lost 19% of its health!
The foe's Chansey's Special fell!

The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Alakazam lost 43 HP! (13% of its health)

----------
I'm playing with fire here by risking a freeze, but I don't have an Ice-type to switch in. I get the Special-down, and thus pressure him to switch. I thought he'd stay in a bit longer, so I throw another Psychic...
----------

Start of turn 9
Redemption called Chansey back!
Redemption sent out Exeggutor!

Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Exeggutor lost 12% of its health!

----------
And he brings out his own Egg. I'm expecting sleep, here, so I Thunder Wave to annoy it before attacking with Psychic...
----------

Start of turn 10
Alakazam used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Exeggutor is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Exeggutor is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 11
Alakazam used Recover!
Alakazam regained health!

The foe's Exeggutor used Stun Spore!
The attack of the foe's Exeggutor missed!

Start of turn 12
Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Exeggutor lost 12% of its health!

The foe's Exeggutor used Stun Spore!
The attack of the foe's Exeggutor missed!

Start of turn 13
Alakazam used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Exeggutor lost 14% of its health!

The foe's Exeggutor used Explosion!
Alakazam lost 313 HP! (100% of its health)
Alakazam fainted!
The foe's Exeggutor fainted!
Redemption sent out Starmie!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

----------
...And he blows it up. I only started playing online yesterday, so I forgot that standard Egg carries Explosion.

If you're wondering why he didn't sleep my Zam, he said later that he was expecting me to switch out.

I sent out Egg trying to get it to wake, but his Starmie makes that impossible. I switch to Chansey...
----------

Start of turn 14
magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Starmie used Thunder Wave!
Chansey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 15
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

Chansey used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Chansey is already paralyzed.

Start of turn 16
Redemption called Chansey back!
Redemption sent out Tauros!

Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

----------
...and he switches in Tauros after checking for Thunder Wave with Chansey. I think I used Thunderbolt there. Now, I want to lure it into Hyper Beaming so that I can switch Rhydon in, so I throw an Ice Beam.
----------

Start of turn 17
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Chansey lost 286 HP! (40% of its health)

Chansey used Ice Beam!
The foe's Tauros lost 27% of its health!

Start of turn 18
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Rhydon!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
Rhydon lost 91 HP! (22% of its health)

----------
Didn't work. I forgot, here, that standard Tauros has Blizzard, and left Rhydon in.
----------

Start of turn 19
The foe's Tauros used Blizzard!
It's super effective!
Rhydon lost 236 HP! (57% of its health)

Rhydon used Earthquake!
The foe's Tauros lost 42% of its health!

----------
Knowing he won't use Body Slam or Hyper Beam against Rhydon, I bring Starmie in - I should have done that the previous turn.
----------

Start of turn 20
magic9mushroom called Rhydon back!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

The foe's Tauros used Earthquake!
Starmie lost 93 HP! (28% of its health)

Start of turn 21
Redemption called Tauros back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

Starmie used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 16% of its health!

----------
I thought he'd leave Tauros in and try to kill Starmie, but 'twas not to be. I figure he's probably going to Tbolt or Twave Chansey, so it's go-go Rhydon!
----------

Start of turn 22
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Rhydon!

The foe's Chansey used Thunder Wave!
But it failed!

Start of turn 23
Redemption called Chansey back!
Redemption sent out Starmie!

Rhydon used Earthquake!
The foe's Starmie lost 50% of its health!

----------
You gotta love Rhydon's Earthquake. I figure this is a good chance to Softboil Chansey back to full health.
----------

Start of turn 24
magic9mushroom called Rhydon back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
Chansey lost 101 HP! (14% of its health)

Start of turn 25
The foe's Starmie used Blizzard!
Chansey avoided the attack!

Chansey used Softboiled!
Chansey regained health!

Start of turn 26
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Tauros!

Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

----------
He brings out Tauros, and expecting Hyper Beam I switch to Rhydon again.
----------

Start of turn 27
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Rhydon!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
Rhydon lost 81 HP! (19% of its health)

Start of turn 28
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
It's not very effective...
Rhydon lost 5 HP! (1% of its health)
Rhydon fainted!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

----------
Well, now I'm in serious doo-doo. Without Rhydon, I don't have any safe switch-ins to a Tauros Hyper Beam. I send out Starmie hoping to do something to that thrice-damned bull...
----------

Start of turn 29
Redemption called Tauros back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

Starmie used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 15% of its health!

Start of turn 30
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

Redemption called Chansey back!
Redemption sent out Tauros!

----------
Aaand he predicts me and gets it in yet again.
----------

Start of turn 31
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Exeggutor lost 109 HP! (27% of its health)

Start of turn 32
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Exeggutor lost 107 HP! (27% of its health)

Exeggutor is fast asleep.

Start of turn 33
magic9mushroom called Exeggutor back!
magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax!

The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
Snorlax lost 240 HP! (45% of its health)
Snorlax is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

----------
I forgot that Egg still had two turns of sleep left. This was just a mistake. I go to Snorlax as my last hope against the rampaging bull, and get critparaslammed. Good thing I have Rest.
----------

Start of turn 34
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Snorlax lost 216 HP! (41% of its health)

Snorlax used Rest!
Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

----------
Now Tauros can't do anything for a turn. I'll get walled by Chansey or Starmie and potentially frozen if I try to set up my Amnesialax, so I go back to Starmie.
----------

Start of turn 35
magic9mushroom called Snorlax back!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

The foe's Tauros must recharge!

Start of turn 36
Redemption called Tauros back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

Starmie used Surf!
A critical hit!
The foe's Chansey lost 30% of its health!

----------
Oh hey, a crit. Maybe I can kill Chansey!
----------

Start of turn 37
Starmie used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 16% of its health!

The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 38
Starmie used Blizzard!
The foe's Chansey avoided the attack!

The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!

----------
Well, that was pretty dumb of me. I don't want to risk him switching in Tauros on my Chansey again, so I go to Lax to try and get off a rest turn.
----------

Start of turn 39
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax!

The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!

magic9mushroom: Good game so far.
Redemption: yeah
Redemption: alot of pressure plays

Start of turn 40
Redemption called Chansey back!
Redemption sent out Tauros!

Snorlax is fast asleep.

Start of turn 41
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
A critical hit!
Snorlax lost 272 HP! (52% of its health)

Snorlax woke up!

----------
Tauros comes in, and gets me down to roughly the same health level I was at before. I could try Resting again, but that won't get me anywhere. So, I set up Reflect before Resting this time.
----------

Start of turn 42
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Snorlax lost 133 HP! (25% of its health)

Snorlax used Reflect!
Reflect raised magic9mushroom's team defense!

Start of turn 43
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Snorlax lost 111 HP! (21% of its health)

Snorlax used Rest!
magic9mushroom: Phew.
Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

Redemption: hp left?
magic9mushroom: That was close.
magic9mushroom: 7 or something.

Start of turn 44
The foe's Tauros must recharge!

Snorlax is fast asleep.

Redemption: wow
Redemption: nice

Start of turn 45
The foe's Tauros used Body Slam!
Snorlax lost 64 HP! (12% of its health)

Snorlax woke up!

----------
Finally, a chance to get a hit in on that thing! Using Amnesia would give the game away, so I just use Surf...
----------

Start of turn 46
Redemption called Tauros back!
Redemption sent out Snorlax!

Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Snorlax lost 14% of its health!

----------
...Oh. Well, I have Reflect up, so at least I'll be able to force it out if I set up. His Chansey's paralysed, so I've got a shot at removing that when it inevitably comes in. Worth a try.
---------
Start of turn 47
Snorlax used Amnesia!
Snorlax's Special sharply rose!

The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Redemption: oh
Redemption: fuck

Start of turn 48
Snorlax used Amnesia!
Snorlax's Special sharply rose!

The foe's Snorlax is fast asleep.

Start of turn 49
Redemption called Snorlax back!
Redemption sent out Chansey!

Snorlax used Amnesia!
Snorlax's Special sharply rose!

Start of turn 50
Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 32% of its health!

The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 51
Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 31% of its health!

The foe's Chansey used Softboiled!
The foe's Chansey regained health!

Start of turn 52
Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 31% of its health!

The foe's Chansey used Ice Beam!
Snorlax lost 24 HP! (4% of its health)

Start of turn 53
Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 33% of its health!

The foe's Chansey is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 54
Snorlax used Surf!
The foe's Chansey lost 21% of its health!
The foe's Chansey fainted!
magic9mushroom: Phew.
Redemption sent out Starmie!
magic9mushroom: owait :P

----------
And I use a full-para to kill Chansey as planned. However, a fresh Starmie is yet another total wall, and so I'm forced to switch out my Tanklax. I can at least make Starmie Recover for a safe switch, so I do.
----------

Start of turn 55
The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!

Snorlax used Surf!
A critical hit!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 15% of its health!

Redemption: I'm not finsihed
Redemption: crit brotha
magic9mushroom: No, indeed you're not.

Start of turn 56
The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
Snorlax lost 35 HP! (6% of its health)
Snorlax's Special fell!

Snorlax used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 31% of its health!

Start of turn 57
The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
Snorlax lost 42 HP! (8% of its health)

Snorlax used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 28% of its health!

Start of turn 58
magic9mushroom called Snorlax back!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!

The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!

----------
I need his Starmie paralysed to win, and Chansey would allow a switch-in from a sleeper. So, I use my own, trade para, and try to make it blink first.
----------

Start of turn 59
Starmie used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Starmie is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Starmie used Thunder Wave!
Starmie is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Start of turn 60
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Snorlax!

Starmie is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 61
The foe's Snorlax woke up!

Starmie used Surf!
The foe's Snorlax lost 28% of its health!

----------
He brings in Lax and gets it to wake. I try Thunder Waving...
----------

Harmmghrr is watching the battle.
Harmmghrr stopped watching the battle.

Start of turn 62
Redemption called Snorlax back!
Redemption sent out Starmie!

Starmie used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Starmie is already paralyzed.

----------
...But it seems that was too obvious. Back to trying to win the Starmie duel so I can get Lax back in.
----------

Start of turn 63
The foe's Starmie is paralyzed! It can't move!

Starmie used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 17% of its health!

Start of turn 64
Starmie used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 18% of its health!

The foe's Starmie used Psychic!
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 54 HP! (16% of its health)
Starmie's Special fell!

----------
Oh, right. Psychic. Back to Chansey we go!
----------

Start of turn 65
magic9mushroom called Starmie back!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

The foe's Starmie used Recover!
The foe's Starmie regained health!
Redemption: games li,e this

magic9mushroom: ?
Redemption: never haooen in gen 5
Redemption: happen&

Start of turn 66
Redemption called Starmie back!
Redemption sent out Snorlax!

Chansey used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Snorlax lost 20% of its health!

----------
I was an idiot here, letting him get Lax in like that. Should have brought in my own Lax. So, since I don't really have a lot of choice, I go back to Lax...
----------

Start of turn 67
magic9mushroom called Chansey back!
magic9mushroom sent out Snorlax!

The foe's Snorlax used Hyper Beam!
Snorlax lost 252 HP! (48% of its health)

Start of turn 68
Snorlax used Rest!
Snorlax went to sleep and became healthy!

The foe's Snorlax must recharge!

Start of turn 69
The foe's Snorlax used Body Slam!
Snorlax lost 149 HP! (28% of its health)

Snorlax is fast asleep.

Start of turn 70
The foe's Snorlax used Selfdestruct!
Snorlax lost 374 HP! (71% of its health)
Snorlax fainted!
The foe's Snorlax fainted!
Redemption sent out Tauros!
magic9mushroom sent out Chansey!

----------
And he blows up my Lax with his own, leaving me with nothing that can stand up to Tauros. I used Chansey hoping to para Tauros and kill it with Starmie, but...
----------

Start of turn 71
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
A critical hit!
Redemption: gg
Chansey lost 570 HP! (81% of its health)
Chansey fainted!
magic9mushroom sent out Starmie!
Redemption: This
Redemption: was one for the ages
magic9mushroom: Might post a warstory.

Start of turn 72
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Starmie lost 176 HP! (54% of its health)
Starmie fainted!
magic9mushroom sent out Exeggutor!
Redemption: what forum?
magic9mushroom: I'm only registered on Smogon and PO.
Redemption: I'd be interested in that
Redemption: I like war stories
Redemption: lol

Start of turn 73
The foe's Tauros used Hyper Beam!
Exeggutor lost 177 HP! (45% of its health)
Exeggutor fainted!
Redemption won the battle!

----------

Tauros came through with a crit Hyper Beam and swept me with ease.

Redemption wins 3-0 with live Tauros, Starmie, and a totally unseen Persian.

Props:

Redemption, for beating me
Redemption's Explosions, for breaking the back of my team.
My Snorlax, for taking out Chansey with Surf.
Starmie ditto being decided by Psychic special-down.

Slops:

Me, for using Blizzard on Chansey when Surf would have been a sure kill, and for failing to predict Explosion and SD.
My Exeggutor, which slept through the whole battle after using Rest.

Lessons learned:

Blizzard/Psychic is scarier on Starmie than Blizzard/Surf.
You don't need to ever use a sleep move to win.
My team struggles to beat Tauros unless I can trap it into Hyper Beaming Rhydon.



So, feel free to tell me how much of an epic n00b I am for not using Tauros, and how any one of you could crush me 6-0. Any advice on how to improve my team and play would also be nice.

 

[tehy]

Just a quick note-comment on each individual turn, not in clusters like that. It's not totally unacceptable, but i find it to be a pretty big turnoff. I semi-stopped reading after turns 20-28, where you basically just say "oh here things are going wrong for me here". Why'd you do any of those things? This is a warSTORY, you seem more like sports commentators on the sidelines. You occasionally say something relevant, but... not really a good enough ratio to make it worthwhile.

Edit: No, but the point isn't to explain what transpired, because we see that in the logs. The point is to say why you did that, what was going on in your head, etc. Think of it like a reality show-there are constant cutaways, as the people explain why they did what they did, comment on stuff, etc. There's occasional good comments, but not really enough to make a warstory.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Just a quick note-comment on each individual turn, not in clusters like that. It's not totally unacceptable, but i find it to be a pretty big turnoff. I semi-stopped reading after turns 20-28, where you basically just say "oh here things are going wrong for me here". Why'd you do any of those things? This is a warSTORY, you seem more like sports commentators on the sidelines. You occasionally say something relevant, but... not really a good enough ratio to make it worthwhile.

I tried to comment every time something interesting happened. Do I need to lower my definition of "interesting"?

 

[Mr.E]

The problem is that you're just "commenting on interesting things" every once in a while. You basically posted a raw battle log and summarized what was going on every few turns. A good war story should give us insight to your thoughts on the current situation, the options you're considering, why you're doing something.

"So after forcing a Recover, I switch in my own Starmie and trade paralysis with it to make it killable." is just rehashing the past few turns the audience already read, as is most of the other commentary. Don't just give us the log and repeat what happened in sentence form. Snorlax is ineffective against his Starmie... Explore your options BEFOREHAND and explain your decision moving forward. You're planning to force a Recover so you can switch your own Starmie in safely. Okay, cool. Then tell us why you chose that over other options, such as switching Starmie in immediately (knowing you're healthy enough to take the hit, and it probably doesn't have Tbolt anyway) or refusing to switch and Rest stalling him.

You started out well. "I preferred to reveal Chansey rather than Zam." is a good example of insight that a war story should contain. But why did you prefer that? Why didn't you consider Starmie or Snorlax? Give us more. It doesn't have to be literally every turn either but definitely more often than every ten or so. Getting into that mindset should also improve your play as you reflect on each decision and maybe recognize mistakes you didn't at the time.

 

[magic9mushroom]

The problem is that you're just "commenting on interesting things" every once in a while. You basically posted a raw battle log and summarized what was going on every few turns. A good war story should give us insight to your thoughts on the current situation, the options you're considering, why you're doing something.

"So after forcing a Recover, I switch in my own Starmie and trade paralysis with it to make it killable." is just rehashing the past few turns the audience already read, as is most of the other commentary. Don't just give us the log and repeat what happened in sentence form. Snorlax is ineffective against his Starmie... Explore your options BEFOREHAND and explain your decision moving forward. You're planning to force a Recover so you can switch your own Starmie in safely. Okay, cool. Then tell us why you chose that over other options, such as switching Starmie in immediately (knowing you're healthy enough to take the hit, and it probably doesn't have Tbolt anyway) or refusing to switch and Rest stalling him.

You started out well. "I preferred to reveal Chansey rather than Zam." is a good example of insight that a war story should contain. But why did you prefer that? Why didn't you consider Starmie or Snorlax? Give us more. It doesn't have to be literally every turn either but definitely more often than every ten or so. Getting into that mindset should also improve your play as you reflect on each decision and maybe recognize mistakes you didn't at the time.

Okay. Thanks for your advice. I'll edit the WS soon.

EDIT: Edited.

 

[Crystal_]

Cool warsory dude. There were some misplays, but don't worry, it's a matter a playing and playing :)

Just some notes:

The biggest overall mistake was they way you deal with Tauros. You should ALWAYS paralyze it if given the chance. Trying to play around it with Hyper beam and Blizzard predictions and stuff often leads to very bad news. ALL teams struggle to beat Tauros, it's a matter of how you play against it (or who gets luckier in a tauros ditto?). Actually, you were pretty lucky to survive that hyper beam on turn 43 since iirc it does 20-24% (without reflect it is 41-48%).

I didn't understand very well what happened between turns 11 and 13. Even if he predicted that you'll switch out, why not put to sleep whatever comes in? He probably wasn't even running SP to begin with, but I don't think so either because that would mean he was running no sleeper. Whatever.

This is a very small thing, but in the turn 2, you did the hardest thing, which is predicting he'll switch out, but then, if you are sure he was going to switch out, why not go to egg directly? Pretty sure it's better than doing 19% to lax and risking body slam(s) in the switch-in, even if that 10% freeze chance is there.

Another minor thing, but turn 9 was the perfect opportunity to get your egg in safely and attempt to wake up. He could've stayed in and tried to land sleep later, but at least egg would've waken up, and at least you would've been able to use one of zam or egg the rest of the battle, since you basically had to sac Egg against Tauros (or you just misplayed it idk).

Redemption probably makes the biggest misplay when he sacces Chansey to your Snorlax when he had Starmie for the full wall. I don't think exchanging paralysis between starmies was a misplay from his part though, since he had no better option to deal with your starmie, and he could also take advantage from paralysing your starmie. (meh, if it seems like i'm trying to show that i'm the best talking about everybody's misplays, i'm not, i'm just trying to help, it's a lot easier to catch mistakes after the battle is done that when you are playing it, you know). I must say though, it was funny to see that both of you were running no Tbolt on Starmie. Don't think this is a good idea. I don't think running double stab instead of tbolt is worth it. Slowbro gonna enjoy that. Having said that, Surf is arguably more useful in Starmie than Psychic overall. Spc falls are a very situational thing.

And if you want one last tip, run Tauros. No reason not to :)

 

[magic9mushroom]

The biggest overall mistake was they way you deal with Tauros. You should ALWAYS paralyze it if given the chance. Trying to play around it with Hyper beam and Blizzard predictions and stuff often leads to very bad news. ALL teams struggle to beat Tauros, it's a matter of how you play against it (or who gets luckier in a tauros ditto?).

Yeah, I should have paraed it the one chance I did get.

I didn't understand very well what happened between turns 11 and 13. Even if he predicted that you'll switch out, why not put to sleep whatever comes in? He probably wasn't even running SP to begin with, but I don't think so either because that would mean he was running no sleeper. Whatever.

I didn't understand it either, so that makes two of us. I'm just going off what he said.

This is a very small thing, but in the turn 2, you did the hardest thing, which is predicting he'll switch out, but then, if you are sure he was going to switch out, why not go to egg directly? Pretty sure it's better than doing 19% to lax and risking body slam(s) in the switch-in, even if that 10% freeze chance is there.

I thought he'd go to Egg to sleep me.

And you're kinda overdoing the praise for predicting that Starmie switches out of Chansey. That's like RBY 101.

Another minor thing, but turn 9 was the perfect opportunity to get your egg in safely and attempt to wake up. He could've stayed in and tried to land sleep later, but at least egg would've waken up, and at least you would've been able to use one of zam or egg the rest of the battle, since you basically had to sac Egg against Tauros (or you just misplayed it idk).

I did misplay it.

Redemption probably makes the biggest misplay when he sacces Chansey to your Snorlax when he had Starmie for the full wall.

Yes. However, while it's a riskier play, his Chansey had a better chance to freeze my Lax - Starmie runs out of Blizzard rather rapidly, and then can't do anything other than PP stall it.

I don't think exchanging paralysis between starmies was a misplay from his part though, since he had no better option to deal with your starmie, and he could also take advantage from paralysing your starmie. (meh, if it seems like i'm trying to show that i'm the best talking about everybody's misplays, i'm not, i'm just trying to help, it's a lot easier to catch mistakes after the battle is done that when you are playing it, you know).

It wasn't a misplay on his part, but nevertheless I had literally no way to get past his Starmie unless it was paralysed. Going with Chansey might at least have paralysed Tauros switching in, I suppose.

I must say though, it was funny to see that both of you were running no Tbolt on Starmie. Don't think this is a good idea. I don't think running double stab instead of tbolt is worth it. Slowbro gonna enjoy that. Having said that, Surf is arguably more useful in Starmie than Psychic overall. Spc falls are a very situational thing.

We weren't running double STAB (both of us had Blizzard), and I had a means to force Slowbro out (my Lax can stall it out of Surf).

And yes, they're indeed a very situational thing.

The thing about Starmie, basically, is that it can either be STABless, give a free switch-in to Egg, give a free switch-in to Lapras/Cloyster/Gengar, or be running Blizzard/Psychic. Blizzard/Psychic also works very nicely as an anti-lead (which is what Redemption was using it as) because it deals SE damage to both Egg and Gar before taking sleep.

And if you want one last tip, run Tauros. No reason not to :)

Over what, you think?

 

[Crystal_]

Yes. However, while it's a riskier play, his Chansey had a better chance to freeze my Lax - Starmie runs out of Blizzard rather rapidly, and then can't do anything other than PP stall it.

What I would’ve done is go to Starmie first and try to freeze it. If that doesn’t work, then I would’ve paralysed it and kept it at 100% so that it can’t rest off paralysis, and then try to pp stall it with both starmie and chansey. A paralysed Snorlax is a lot less likely to beat chansey, since Surf is only a 4HKO.

It wasn't a misplay on his part, but nevertheless I had literally no way to get past his Starmie unless it was paralysed. Going with Chansey might at least have paralysed Tauros switching in, I suppose.

Yeah, paralysis exchange was both good and bad for you. Probably more good than bad. But it’s not that Redeption could do much to avoid it anyway. He had nothing able to switch into Starmie, and less so considering that your Starmie ran STAB.

The thing about Starmie, basically, is that it can either be STABless, give a free switch-in to Egg, give a free switch-in to Lapras/Cloyster/Gengar, or be running Blizzard/Psychic. Blizzard/Psychic also works very nicely as an anti-lead (which is what Redemption was using it as) because it deals SE damage to both Egg and Gar before taking sleep.

I think that Thunderbolt is the most “mandatory” attacking move on Starmie. You are walled by Chansey no matter what, so ultimately, it’s a matter of defensive coverage. Thunderbolt covers all the waters. But it’s ok, I mean, anything that doesn’t involve dropping Recover is viable. If you want to cover both egg and gengar then that’s ok.

Quote:
And if you want one last tip, run Tauros. No reason not to :)
Over what, you think?

Team building is pretty straight-forward in RBY. There are three slots that I’d say are mandatory, and these are Tauros, Snorlax and a sleep inducer. There is basically no reason to forgo any of these, doing it will make your team “inferior” overall. Following that logic, Snorlax and Exeggutor stay. Now, if you want a standard team, then it’s a good idea to keep chansey as well. It’s more replaceable than the other three, but still, not something that you should forgo as a rule. This leaves us with three pokemon to choose from: Alakazam, Starmie and Rhydon. None is clearly more useful or less useful than the others, so ultimately it’s your choice. That’s how RBY teams are make afterall. You drop zam and have team A. You drop Starmie and have team B, and you drop rhydon for it and make team C. And from a RBY standpoint, these are actually three different teams.

 

[Mr.E]

He should've brought Snorlax back in and probably would've swept once Redemption's Starmie was paralyzed. I could call out plenty of mistakes but I figured the point was to critique the war story, not the skill of the players battling. This is not Mr.E's Newbie School. Still, the juices are flowing now. Thanks, ass. ;[

Tbolt is mandatory on Starmie because it's the only common pokémon that beats Slowbro. (Also: Venusaur/Victreebel, Zapdos/Jolteon, trading with Explosion.) T-Wave and Recover are mandatory non-attacking moves, the last slot is basically Ice move for Eggy or a STAB move for better neutral damage on Normals. Psychic has the special drop but Surf still hits Grounds. I tend to just roll with Blizzard because, albeit less accurate and less PP, it's almost as strong as the STAB choices (120 to 135-142.5) without giving up the coverage and having freeze chance.

I've never used Snorlax and never plan to in RBY, never thought it does much. For the most part, it's the Golem to Chansey's Rhydon: it wins 1v1 and can explode but is otherwise inferior. And I don't even think Chansey is "mandatory." It can't kill anything, it's just a very safe switch-in to special mons while threatening to paralyze physical things coming in. (Snorlax wins because it couldn't care less about PAR and isn't 2HKOed by Ice Beam like Rhydon/Golem.) The only true mandatory is Tauros, though I usually like to say Eggy is as well since it's so good yet completely unique. Zam is pretty darned close too just because it beats everything 1v1, probably also the best sleep absorber, and Rhydon/Golem are considerable simply because Zapdos is that damn scary in their absence.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah I think standardlax is pretty overrated too. I think his main selling point is that he threatens switch in, but unlike goldon he can actually stay in on them.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Tbolt is mandatory on Starmie because it's the only common pokémon that beats Slowbro. (Also: Venusaur/Victreebel, Zapdos/Jolteon, trading with Explosion.)

Amnesia Lax with T-bolt kills it IIRC, and I've been warming up to the idea of Kinesis Zam + T-bolt Chansey.

 

[Borat]

I've never used Snorlax and never plan to in RBY, never thought it does much. For the most part, it's the Golem to Chansey's Rhydon: it wins 1v1 and can explode but is otherwise inferior. And I don't even think Chansey is "mandatory." It can't kill anything, it's just a very safe switch-in to special mons while threatening to paralyze physical things coming in. (Snorlax wins because it couldn't care less about PAR and isn't 2HKOed by Ice Beam like Rhydon/Golem.) The only true mandatory is Tauros, though I usually like to say Eggy is as well since it's so good yet completely unique. Zam is pretty darned close too just because it beats everything 1v1, probably also the best sleep absorber, and Rhydon/Golem are considerable simply because Zapdos is that damn scary in their absence.

Dumb decisions like that are what's been holding you back for the past decade.

And golem and rhydon are more often used to take explosions instead of the wholly mediocre RBY zapdos.

 

[Mr.E]

RBY Snorlax is certainly not the juggernaut it is in GSC. It gets 3HKOed by Zam, for example, and is in the only speed tier (dead last) that actually crits LESS often than standard rate post-RBY. Snorlax has the same Attack is hardly stronger than Tauros, so it's by no means weak, but far less dangerous since it doesn't crit 20% of the time. Other than getting STAB on Body Slam, there's nothing special about it. Everything in OU except shitty Cloyster (which shouldn't even be OU but Hip is the one that re-did the tiers and has a hard-on for it) can spread paralysis, some of which are also slow enough that they "don't care" about getting PAR in return. Snorlax is versatile, I'll give it that, but not particularly dangerous.

Golem/Rhydon are hardly worth using at all if not to cockblock Zapdos. They're good enough not to be entirely useless in Zapdos' absence, which is why people usually pack one, but Sandslash is otherwise superior. Zapdos is the only reason they're OU at all. I certainly have better shit to do than dedicate an entire team slot to taking Explosion.

Kinesis Zam? I've used it before, not bad considering that last moveslot is mostly filler anyway. Seismic Toss is good because it conserves Psychic PP against fellow Psychics but Kinesis certainly makes for better switch-outs. Doesn't really "beat" Slowbro other than make it easier to PP stall but sure, why not.

 

[Dre89]

RBY Snorlax is certainly not the juggernaut it is in GSC. It gets 3HKOed by Zam, for example, and is in the only speed tier (dead last) that actually crits LESS often than standard rate post-RBY. Snorlax has the same Attack has Tauros, so it's by no means weak, but far less dangerous since it doesn't crit 20% of the time. Other than getting STAB on Body Slam, there's nothing special about it. Everything in OU except shitty Cloyster (which shouldn't even be OU but Hip is the one that re-did the tiers and has a hard-on for it) can spread paralysis, some of which are also slow enough that they "don't care" about getting PAR in return. Snorlax is versatile, I'll give it that, but not particularly dangerous.

Golem/Rhydon are hardly worth using at all if not to cockblock Zapdos. They're good enough not to be entirely useless in Zapdos' absence, which is why people usually pack one, but Sandslash is otherwise superior. Zapdos is the only reason they're OU at all. I certainly have better shit to do than dedicate an entire team slot to taking Explosion.

Kinesis Zam? I've used it before, not bad considering that last moveslot is mostly filler anyway. Seismic Toss is good because it conserves Psychic PP against fellow Psychics but Kinesis certainly makes for better switch-outs. Doesn't really "beat" Slowbro other than make it easier to PP stall but sure, why not.

I don't want to be one of those dickheads who is rude over video game opinions, but there is a lot wrong with this post.

Firstly, snorlax is stronger than tauros. Tauros has base 100 attack, snorlax has 110.

Secondly, how is cloyster shit? It OHKOs goldon and 2HKOs eggy, walls lax (and an extent tauros), can clamp and explode all in the one set. Cloyster is easily a top 10 pokemon in OU. It's thing like jolteon that are questionable.

Also, goldon isn't just for zapdos. You don't even really need them for zapdos, just use reflect chansey or something like that. I don't even run my rhydon for zapdos, they're so rare nowadays anyway. Once eggy is gone, pretty much nothing wants to switch in on them. Eggy can't even come in on things like hyper beam rhydon that often, especially if the rhydon is smart and goes for paraslams. Honestly my rhydon probably uses body slam more than earthquake. Goldon is also good for catching explosions and hbeams, and they also allow you to paralyse enemy chanseys to 2HKO them (rhydon is better for this than golem). Golem's explosion is pretty nice too.


There is absolutely no way sandslash is better than golem or rhydon. His EQ hits softer, he can't take explosions and hbeams that well, he doesn't wall zapdos, and he still gets walled by all the same shit goldon does.The only things he has going for him are not being OHKOd by surf and beating goldon 1v1, he is inferior in pretty much every other regard. You are pretty much never going to sweep with SD because he's too slow and has a bad typing, and needs to get to +4 before he can OHKO anything other than zam, jynx or gengar. Even if you did set him up, you could have just used kingler or victreebell, who are better sweepers in almost every regard except for the fact that they can't touch gengar, but gengar is likely to be asleep or have blown up by end game anyway. Heck, sandslash still competes with graveler for a spot in UU.

 

[Jorgen]

Snorlax is great in RBY. My go-to switch-in in the mid-game to punch holes in shit (I-love hyphens). Nothing does it the way Snorlax does. Plus he tanks whatever you need him to in emergencies and trades with whatever gives you trouble. He's not GSC good, but he's still pretty goddamn good.

Cloyster is good because Clamp is basically RBY's ghetto version of U-Turn. Damage-free switch-ins for Snorlax and other sweepers are absolutely glorious.

I use Rhydon/Golem mostly for eating Hyper Beams and switching into standard Snorlaxes myself, in addition to their fantastic offensive pressure. Zapdos and taking Explosions are just bonuses tbh.

Sandslash does have the perk of being faster than Exeggutor. SD on the switch and Hyper Beam does 61-72% to Egg. However, I prefer Kingler for janky Swords Dancer because of the much higher Attack and the ability to do more instant damage to things like Tauros and especially Snorlax with Crabhammer (Crabhammer 3HKOs Snorlax, pretty handy when you need to beat a Tanklax). Neither is doing too much defensively anyway.

EDIT: Oh yeah this is the warstory thread so I might as well comment on something pertinent to the OP. Feel free to continue experimenting with Tauros-less teams, they can be good, although tbh I'd use Tauros until you get a real feel for how RBY works so you know exactly what he brings to the table (a LOT) and how you would consider playing against it.

 

[Mr.E]

Blizzard+Psychic is definitely better than Blizzard+Surf, yes. ;[ The whole point of Blizzard is that it's almost as strong as STAB Surf while keeping "Goldon" coverage (though not OHKOs) and gaining Zapdos plus Eggy. Using them together is somewhat redundant. Likewise, using both STAB moves is redundant because you only need one for maximum strength and accuracy against neutral targets (particularly Tauros). Surf hits Zam and has more PP but Psychic has boss special drops.

Surf+Tbolt, Ice Beam+Psychic, Tbolt+Blizzard are the move combinations that make the most sense on Starmie. The coverage on Tbolt+Psychic is just terrible. Ice Beam > Blizzard with a STAB move since you don't need it for neutral power, just coverage and freeze cheese.

I don't want to be one of those dickheads who is rude over video game opinions, but there is a lot wrong with this post.

Firstly, snorlax is stronger than tauros. Tauros has base 100 attack, snorlax has 110...

Oops. 8)

Regarding Cloyster, OHKOing Goldon isn't much of an accomplishment. Everything 2HKOs them at worst because of their garbo Special and type weaknesses. (Spoilers: This is also the primary reason nobody would use them if not for the threat of Zapdos.) It's slower than most things and can't paralyze (or Agility) things on its own so Clamp, good as it is, isn't all that special. The only particular reason to let it take on Tauros/Snorlax is that it switches into Body Slam pretty decently and you don't mind dying because it sucks. Only real argument for Cloyster is Explosion; it still often trades. At best it's the Golem to Lapras' Rhydon, a generally inferior pokémon that explodes. Of course, I've always much preferred Rhydon too...

G/R are pretty questionable in Zapdos' absence. Sandslash is faster than Eggy, Chansey, Lapras. Swords Dance makes it more dangerous against a heavily paralyzed team. It survives an extra hit of most special attacks, which is a big deal because being slower than everything and getting 2HKOed by everything is not a recipe for success. Normal resist is good as a pivot, less so directly taking on Normals, but really it's hard countering Zapdos that makes the Rock typing worthwhile. They have other minor perks, just like say Persian or Dodrio have advantages over Tauros, but they're overall inferior and slow Grounds isn't the kind of thing you can feasibly double-up on in a team like fast Normals.

Kingler is totally not even the same thing because it's not even immune to T-Wave (and weak to Tbolt). ;(

 

[Dre89]

Clamp isn't used to sweep, it's used to control the battle by abusing free switches and by covering anything that switches in. Clamp and explosion make cloyster one of the best switch-ins to a chansey ice beam.

Slash is only better than goldom when boosted, otherwise it's inferior. Grounds in OU are hit and run pokemon, you get them in on something, hit something on the switch, then switch out. It doesn't really matter that slash can take specials hits better because it can't stay in on specials anyway.

If you're implying that slash is way better than kingler, then you're wrong. The match-ups that matter most to SDers are the pokemon you're most likely to see end-game, and kingler has a better match up against tauros. Tauros can't hit kingler for SE damage, whereas kingler 2HKOS with chammer. Kingler is much more of a threat unboosted, having a good match up on snorlax, 3HKOing with chammer.

Twave immunity is nice, but the idea behind SDing is that the opponent's team should be so crippled beforehand that they won't get many attacks off to begin with. Kingler has a better chance at setting up because it is much more of a threat unboosted, meaning it can force more switches.

Victreebell doesn't have the firepower that kingler does, but it hits pokemon like starmie and SE,, and has status.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I have to say that without a fresh Starmie or Zam, Cloyster is damned scary. I've taken to running Thunderbolt instead of Blizzard on Tauros just to zap the damned mollusc. It outspeeds Chansey and gets Hyper Beam to capitalise on enough lucky Clamps. It can switch into (non-Tbolt) Tauros without dying, and forces it out with STAB Blizzard (although Lapras is better at that). And if you DO manage to get an unparalysed Chansey in against paralysed Cloyster, it blows up in your face.


E, I'll take your advice about Ice Beam in mind. Thanks.


Jorgen, my main go-to Tauros checks are Reflect Snorlax or Cloyster/Lapras (though I'll keep in whatever it comes in against if I can Thunder Wave first). Do you have more advice about playing against it?

 

[Crystal_]

Play aggressive. Switch the least possible. Unless you have a healthy pokemon like cloyster/lapras/egg, sometimes the best way to play it is saccing the least relevant pokemon you have to get something in safely. Paralyze it whenever you have the chance. If you are in an advantageous position, forcing a tauros mirror or snorlax vs tauros is generally the best idea, because going to a defensive pokemon usually lets your opponent switch tauros back and send it later, but if you send a more threatening pokemon like snorlax or especially tauros, this often won't let your opponent switch back save his tauros. In addition, these macthups usually remove some of the luck involved, since the pokemon that doesn't go down, generally ends up paralyzed and/or at below 1/3 of health provided both started at 100%. However, switching snorlax or tauros into tauros is rarely a good idea.

 

[Omanyte]

Blizzard+Psychic is definitely better than Blizzard+Surf, yes. ;[ The whole point of Blizzard is that it's almost as strong as STAB Surf while keeping "Goldon" coverage (though not OHKOs) and gaining Zapdos plus Eggy. Using them together is somewhat redundant. Likewise, using both STAB moves is redundant because you only need one for maximum strength and accuracy against neutral targets (particularly Tauros). Surf hits Zam and has more PP but Psychic has boss special drops.

Honestly I quite like Surf, Blizzard and Thunderbolt on a set together for maximum sweeping potential. That way you either get a super effective attack or STAB Surf for (at least) neutral damage, something that Psychic cannot provide. However, I would agree that Surf+Blizzard with T-Wave is a bit silly because there's a lot of overlap.

G/R are pretty questionable in Zapdos' absence.

That's just nonsense. Compared to Sandslash they can eat Hyper Beams and Explosions. Rhydon is much more powerful and Golem is more powerful and gets explosion. They also have STAB Rock Slide (for something like a Lapras/Jynx switch ins). I like Sandslash but Goldon is superior regardless of whether Zapdos appears or not.

 

[Mr.E]

Honestly, Golem is weak enough as it is that Sandslash being even slightly weaker base isn't a big downside, Swords Dance is more valuable. Rhydon is a boss and 2HKOs Starmie, among other things, but Golem is a feeble mcweaksauce. But that was really the "other minor perk" I was talking about for Rhydon anyway. ;[ (Golem's is obviously Explosion.) Normal resist for doing stuff like pivoting Starmie in against Tauros ain't worth being slower than Eggy / Chansey and almost always dying faster. The only reason Goldon plays hit-and-run is because they get killed so easily by everything, Sandslash usually takes an extra hit to go down and sweeps harder with SD.

Umm yeah I guess if you wanna forgo T-Wave on Starmie, obviously you'd use both coverage moves... I'd probably use Psychic over Surf, since really it's not like Starmie beats Zam normally anyway (Surf more useful for preventing it switching in at low health to Recover than actually duel) and Psychic is better against everything else for special drops. Of course, I would never drop T-Wave. Alternatively, you can use Hyper Beam to dick with Chansey and Zam.

 

[Dre89]

Slash is still going to go down to the same stuff that goldon does, so the extra special doesn't really matter as it'll have to run away anyway. The big difference between slash and golem's attack is that slash needs two max rolls to 2HKO chansey unboosted, meaning slash will almost never achieve it.

The extra specia bulk is pretty irrelevant, because slash still gets 2HKOd by every ice attack in the meta, and is almost OHKOd by starmie's surf. If you're using it mid-game to hit-and-run, it's inferior to goldom in almost every way. Yes it can sweep, but not if it's been taking hits mid-game. If it's going to sweep, you need to protect it until end-game. Seeing as you'll be doing this to tauros as well, you'll now be playing 4-5 for the majority of the battle.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Slash is still going to go down to the same stuff that goldon does, so the extra special doesn't really matter as it'll have to run away anyway. The big difference between slash and golem's attack is that slash needs two max rolls to 2HKO chansey unboosted, meaning slash will almost never achieve it.

The extra specia bulk is pretty irrelevant, because slash still gets 2HKOd by every ice attack in the meta, and is almost OHKOd by starmie's surf. If you're using it mid-game to hit-and-run, it's inferior to goldom in almost every way. Yes it can sweep, but not if it's been taking hits mid-game. If it's going to sweep, you need to protect it until end-game. Seeing as you'll be doing this to tauros as well, you'll now be playing 4-5 for the majority of the battle.

Clearly, the best hit-and-run Ground type is Dugtrio. :D

EDIT: ...I wasn't serious, but on a whim I ran a Trio team with dual wrappers, and as an offensive mon it isn't bad. Throwing crit-STAB Earthquakes like candy isn't to be scoffed at.

 

[Dre89]

That's an interesting idea, but the problem is that they'll just go to eggy every time, and wrappers don't like switching in on eggy.

It's better to just stick to starzam. Speedsters are there to outspeed enemy wrappers and threaten paralysis. Dugtrio doesn't really do that(paraslams aren't good enough) and he is scared of the common wrappers.

Trio is still inferior to goldon anyway because it's better to bslam eggy than to slash it, and goldon is better at bslamming. Goldon is also good for PP stalling aginite, as they can absorb every second wrap and only take 16%, then try to catch the hyper beam.

 

[magic9mushroom]

That's an interesting idea, but the problem is that they'll just go to eggy every time, and wrappers don't like switching in on eggy.

Until they blow up Eggy.

The idea with the wrappers was to give Trio free switch-ins.

It's better to just stick to starzam. Speedsters are there to outspeed enemy wrappers and threaten paralysis. Dugtrio doesn't really do that(paraslams aren't good enough) and he is scared of the common wrappers.

Trio is still inferior to goldon anyway because it's better to bslam eggy than to slash it, and goldon is better at bslamming. Goldon is also good for PP stalling aginite, as they can absorb every second wrap and only take 16%, then try to catch the hyper beam.

Trio's certainly much more of a niche 'mon than Golem/Rhydon, but I'm just saying that it does have that niche, because its insane crit rate can force multiple switches.