1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Please refer to this thread for the current Smogon Tier Lists.
  3. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Gen 1 Best RBY lead?

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by nerds, Aug 9, 2009.

?

Best lead?

  1. Jynx

    10 vote(s)
    7.3%
  2. Alakazam

    36 vote(s)
    26.3%
  3. Gengar

    39 vote(s)
    28.5%
  4. Exeggutor

    19 vote(s)
    13.9%
  5. Dodrio

    5 vote(s)
    3.6%
  6. Venomoth

    6 vote(s)
    4.4%
  7. Fire type

    8 vote(s)
    5.8%
  8. Other

    14 vote(s)
    10.2%
  1. nerds

    nerds

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    10
    Who do you think is the best pokemon to lead with in RBY?

    If you don't know how to play RBY, don't bother posting.
  2. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,172
    Why would this be in the RBY forum if he was asking about DPP....

    Anyways, I picked Gengar. Fast Sleep, not OHKOd by Alazkazam's Psychic (thank god for not having the Special split in RBY lol) and a fast Explosion gives me a head start in battles whenever I use it. Plus, if I decide to not boom right away (I always Seismic Toss first to see what they will bring in), I have something to absorb Explosions/Body Slams/Hyper Beams later on.

    This poll will be kinda interesting, since we don't have any actual usage statistics for RBY. It will be nice to see what other people actually use instead of estimating based on opinions of what we see.
  3. Agaki

    Agaki

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    201
    Toss up between Alakazam and Gengar but Gengar is a more useful lead than Alakazam mainly because of sleep. Gives a chance for Slowbro to bring on Amnesia realatively early.
  4. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Messages:
    36
    I chose Alakazam, he's fast and has a lot of cool moves.
  5. Witchcraft23

    Witchcraft23

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    148
    Alakazam because of the fact that he was rather powerful in generation I (than again most psychic types are).
  6. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Messages:
    4,540
    I voted Exeggutor because it's a powerhouse and does everything you could ever want from a lead pokemon. It can sleep, paralyze, explode and inflict a decent amount of damage without taking much in return from most other common leads to start the match. The only downside to leading with it is potentially having to eat sleep from a rival lead but, IMO, Exeggutor is so sturdy that it can actually absorb sleep and still be useful. It has the ability to take a lot of hits and wall certain pokemon while you're waiting for it to wake up.

    I find Gengar to be extremely overrated and I'd rather not take my chances with Hypnosis when 3 psychic types are listed in this poll as leads. And once something is asleep all it can do is hang around and wait to explode on something. Sorry, I already have Golem for that.
  7. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    344
    I'd love to say, or should I say Lovely Kiss to say that I'd have Jynx as my lead, but I've seen nothing 'Special' come out of using her as a lead.

    Sure she has decent stats backed up with two great moves in the game along with STAB on both, but only if your base speed was up a little and her Special, then she'd be something more than a tranny looking Pokemon.

    But with all that power and great moves, she can't even OHKO most common leads, which is just sad. Even with a CH + STAB fails to OHKO such things as Exeggutor and Gengar, and sure as hell if it can't take those two out has a slimmer chance to take out lead Alakazam.

    For me, I'd have to say Alakazam is just a great lead. Why Alakazam? Well:

    1) Like it says in it's RBY analysis page 'It's like a mini-Chansey that sweeps.' which is very true and oddly hilarious.

    2) Great Speed and Special along with STAB Psychic and obviously it's Psychic-type it doesn't take much damage from anything. Only problem is if it gets Paralyzed, which in Alakazam's case is a total bitch. It 2HKO's Gengar with STAB non-CH Psychic and/or it can Paralyze it first turn instead as it's nice to go faster than Gengar.

    Lead Exeggutor doesn't do all that much to it either, unless it' carrying Double-Edge, then it may be a bit of a problem if it doesn't carry Reflect, but Thunder Wave and if it's carrying S-Toss, then it's a 4HKO with S-Toss if Exeguttor is at full HP. Even with a 95 (288) base Attack stat and using a non-CH Explosion on Alakazam fails to OHKO. It can slowly lower my Special stat with STAB Psychic I guess, but Alakazam can do the same if it doesn't carry S-Toss. But mainly like 90% of Alakazams I see are packing T-Wave, so a PAR status Exeggutor would not like being Paralyzed against a S-Toss'ing Alakazam, so it'll switch out sooner or later.

    3) If Alakazam isn't your lead, which kind of goes off-topic as this thread is 'what's your favorite lead', but oh well - if Alakazam isn't your lead, than it makes a great late-game sweeper as well to finish off whatever is left with STAB Psychic, and whatever else yours may have on it. And also, who could forget it's awesome recovery move? Recover just makes it all that much better.

    The RBY analysis page for Alakazam is all you need, all the options are there for a moveset.

    Alakazam, basically put, is just the best lead IMO. It can take real powerful blows thanks to the Special not being split yet, and it can strike back with STAB Psychic or Seismic Toss, it can T-Wave, and Recover the damage it took later on. It's an amazing Pokemon in RBY, be it as a lead or late-game.

    Also for those who play Stadium once in awhile be it with friends or against the CPU, having a lead Substitute Alakazam (or Jynx/Gengar) really gives you a great start in Pokemon Stadium battles, as I believe in Pokemon Stadium, Substitute is much like how it is in the later generations. I'm not quite sure if a Seismic Toss can break a sub, as I've never really seen it used against my lead Alakazam in Stadium battles, but I'll test it out sometime when I get a chance.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  8. pear

    pear

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    270
    edit: to stay on topic, Exeggutor is my lead of choice. It makes as good a sleep absorber as anything, isn't completely worthless when paralyzed, takes hits well, and has a good sleep move to boot. Oh, and it has Stun Spore to ruin Alakazam or Double-Edge to simply KO it.


    In Prime Cup (level 100), there are only a few Pokemon that have enough HP to make 404 HP subs. Mew can't do it in RBY (hits 403 HP max) and so 'Zam sure as hell can't do it. Kangaskhan is kind of fast and has plenty of HP, but random special attacks can probably break its subs. Vaporeon has huge subs, but it's slow, and all the other options are even slower.

    I'll check to see how it works in Poke Cup.
    edit: Alakazam produces subs with a maximum of 44 HP at level 55, so Seismic Toss is going to break its subs.
  9. Vineon

    Vineon Fleurdelysé
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,690
    I use starmie, which isn't in your weird and limited list. (Venomoth?)
  10. 133tSneasel

    133tSneasel

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    964
    What about Jynx, (Status, like Sleep and Freeze) STAB Ice and Psychic attacks, can use Counter on Double-Edge, Starmie really doesn't do much to it.
  11. pear

    pear

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    270
    Starmie is actually listed as a Jynx counter on the latter's analysis.
  12. Ace777

    Ace777

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,604
    Where's Hypno???

    Anyways I voted for Alakazam because of its speed and ability to absorb sleep.
  13. Vineon

    Vineon Fleurdelysé
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,690

    Besides kill it while Jynx pretty much can't do shit to it if it can't put it to sleep.

    Double-Edge isn't seen a lot in RBY.
  14. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    344
    Right, thanks for the info.

    Yeah, I'd also like to know why Venomoth is in that list? Also that and Dodrio? Never have I seen a Dodrio lead since I've been battling on NB in tournaments or just regular play, nor a Venomoth. If you mean UU leads, then I could see Venomoth as a fine lead with Double Powder, but in OU Exeguttor does double powder and hell of a lot more things.

    I've already mentioned her, she's just a terrible lead. She sounds like a really good lead, but sadly she's slower than Gengar; Arcanine leads 2HKO it with non-CH STAB Fire Blast; Alakazam can Paralyze it and S-Toss it and Recover off the damage; Exeguttor can fall asleep to it and take STAB Blizzards to the face, but it'll eventually wake up and use either powders and Explode or switch out.
    Yeah, Hypno should be on there, it can do a lot of things and be a mini-whatever it says it can be like in it's RBY analysis page. The person who made the poll should take out Dodrio and Venomoth and toss in Hypno and Starmie. Even though I don't see the point in lead Starmies, care to explain, Vineon?

    It's only a tad bit faster than Gengar, but fails to OHKO it with STAB Surf; Alakazam can PAR it and S-Toss/switch out; Exeguttor could fall to it being Paralyzed by T-Wave and a few Blizzards, but it will gain a short amount and do somewhat damage if it can do Mega Drain on it or even use one of the powders it carries. It's a good lead against Jynx I suppose, as whatever Jynx throws out there with STAB Starmie will resist it and hit back hard with a STAB Surf or Paralyze it (if it's doesn't fall to sleep with Lovely Kiss that is). But it's a 3HKO with STAB non-CH Surf.

    I still stand strong with Alakazam for my vote, and it's the highest one in the polls with 8 votes right now.

    Edit: Oh no wait, Gengars at 8 votes as well. Lol I believe people are voting for Gengar because of how Jr put it, makes you want to vote Gengar right away. Sadly even if Alakazam cannot faint it with a Psychic OHKO, then I just usually Thunder Wave lead Gengars as I expect the Hypnosis. So I might as well Paralyze it, killing it's Speed to be useless unless you predict a Normal-type move and switch in on it if yours is still alive 'till later on in the game. But using Psychic on it will bring it pretty low, but if after it manages to put to sleep whatever is the opponents lead, then it'll switch out and come back later to Explode on something, so again, Paralyzing the damn thing is far better than using Psychic on it IMO.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  15. Sticky Topic

    Sticky Topic

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    65
    I am not Vineon, but I can hopefully respond correctly:

    I would run Blizzard, Psychic, Thunder Wave, and Recover, so Starmie has a better chance of beating Gengar than Gengar does to beat Starmie, and Starmie also has a better chance of killing Gengar than Gengar does of putting Starmie asleep. The lack of Thunderbolt isn't too worrysome since Starmie isn't going to have to deal with Water Pokemon as much as if it were sweeping.

    Starmie isn't going to stay in usually. I'd just switch to Chansey or something.

    If Exeggutor uses Sleep Powder after Starmie has used Blizzard then Starmie has done its job. Like Alakazam as a starter Starmie's job is to get put to sleep while damaging the enemy starter. If Exeggutor runs Mega Drain though Starmie can easily use Thunder Wave and beat it with Blizzard. If he uses Stun Spore on Starmie then you aren't putting any Pokemon to sleep for a good while because Starmie can just absorb it unless you are running something weird with a sleeping move.

    Without Surf this is of little concern, but most of the time I am happy to do as much damage as possible before getting put to sleep even if the damage isn't too significant.
  16. Vineon

    Vineon Fleurdelysé
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,690
    I've honestly haven't faced many gengar starters, I largely have it on for jynx/exeggutor starters. Exeggutor especially.

    I believe the whole idea stems from how insanely overrated the idea of first sleep is. If people use a sleeper as their starter, that is already a turn-off for me to do the same. I certainly won't risk my sleeper to go to sleep, because you need to INSURE you put something to sleep in a RBY match. The way to do that is not lead with a damn sleep move. If you lead with a sleeper only to switch out against another sleeper, you should probably ask yourself why you even bother. I can't stress enough how important it is to put something to sleep, in most cases, it is pretty close to a ohko, but there is no 1st turn rush to do so.

    Starmie will blizzard right off, many exeggutors decide to stay in, they risk a CH (high chance from a fast pokémon), they risk a freeze, they risk sleep powder missing. All factors playing in my favor, with luck, I've potentially avoided having something put to sleep and I can guarantee you will not avoid having something put to sleep by me later.

    If it uses stun spore on my starmie, that usually means it doesn't have mega drain. You've just insured you are never going to put any of my pokémons to sleep, as your own Exeggutor double powder can't force me to switch my starmie out to sleep something else.

    The exeggutors that switch out do in favor of chansey (or a bit more rarely alakazams). I very much like the idea of starting with a chance to freeze either, especially chansey. Assuming this switch happened, Im likely met with thunder wave next, which will hit my own chansey, granting me a status absorber I can use against even sleep if need be.

    Roughly, he gambles if he (tries to) puts me to sleep and he gives me a status absorber right off the bat if he doesn't. If there is a small chance sleep might not be a fatality, I will take it. By that time, his team is fully opened to have my sleeper take something out because I will restrain myself from spreading status moves until I do sleep something.

    If starmie leads against alakazam, Im not staying in, what has alakazam gained from leading exactly? Why is alakazam even considered a good lead? What can it do besides hit a switch or prz a pokémon like chansey that is asking to be? I am shocked it is winning this poll.


    (edit : someone voted for venomoth!)
  17. nerds

    nerds

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    10
    sorry about forgetting hypno and starmie. Feel free to start a new poll with better options.
  18. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    344
    People just want the satisfaction to be able to say they already Paralyzed, put to Sleep, or CH killed the opponents lead Pokemon. To some players they think it's a 6 - 5 lead, 'specially if Gengar is Paralyzed if it stays in against lead Alakazam, which it usually does. At most times it switches out and they bring in something to absorb the PAR or foolishly bring in Golem/Rhydon to not take the hit.

    Sadly those two still can't KO Alakazam with STAB EQ and Rhydons STAB EQ is one damage less than Golem's Explosion to it. This is all without Reflect that is, or else it'd take far less damage obviously. But Alakazam can strike back and 2HKO both with non-CH STAB Psychic.

    And Venomoth is now at 3 votes.

    I'm pretty sure if you go and edit your first post, click on 'Go Advanced' and it'll let you fully edit your post, and even the poll I believe.
  19. Vineon

    Vineon Fleurdelysé
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,690
    I'm not sure what alakazam could seek to ohko on the first turn other than the mentionned gengar. I sort of believe no gengar would stay. It isn't hard to switch to something else against an alakazam, the risk is way too high, the pay way too small.

    It can be dangerous to lead with a prz move, as it grants the other team a status absorber and makes inducing sleep somewhat harder off the bat. Hence why people lead with the sleep move, but those that do also risk having their sleeping leader being put against another one, that his supremely risky.

    There is 2 behaviors possible from there, stay in and gamble it, you end up with quite an advantage if you do manage to sleep your opponent's sleeper before he can put anything in your team to sleep. Or you can switch out and not risk it and anyone that does that simply shouldn't bother leading with a sleeper.

    "At most times it switches out and they bring in something to absorb the PAR or foolishly bring in Golem/Rhydon to not take the hit. "

    No they don't. They are going to paralyse a chansey, a pokémon that actively seeks to be paralysed. Teams that don't use chansey use an alakazam instead to serve that pupose. A paralysed chansey limits a team's ability to spread status greatly. If possible, a sleeping or frozen chansey should be considered a trophy.
  20. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,150
    I like to lead with Gengar because so many people lead with sleep. Gengar is the best sleep absorber (because it's still useful since it can switch into Explosion), and is strong enough to take on most other leads. I agree with Vineon that you don't want to risk losing your sleeper (my main team has Sleep Powder Exeggutor, and I bring it out once I know what they're going to try and absorb sleep with so I sleep what I want).
  21. pkmn1000

    pkmn1000

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2009
    Messages:
    397
    I voted for tauros.
  22. VKCA

    VKCA (Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,656
    Without a doubt alakazam, man that guy has paraed sooo many pokes for me.
  23. Grammarian

    Grammarian

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Ditto because your opponent would burst his/her gut due to uncontrollable laughter.
  24. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,947
    Haha, foolproof.
  25. jason1993p

    jason1993p

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    16
    definitly alakazam
    because he has an extremely good special and really no physical moves can hurt becasue his weakness are scarce

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)