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BH: When to use what and why

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by The Eevee General, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Awakened
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    I hope it's ok to open a new thread on BH. I figured since it's popular enough it wouldn't be an issue but I never got a reply back so here goes...

    When playing in the highly dynamic, fluid metagame of Balanced Hackmons almost anything goes. With a few exceptions of banned abilities (Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Wonder Guard, Pure/Huge Power) and moves (the OHKO attacks), you can slap on any ability and moveset to any Pokemon.

    As verbatim notes in the main Balanced Hackmons thread in his Metagame Analysis (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3463764):
    (Bold emphasis added by me)

    What does this mean and how does it affect your choice of Pokemon on your BH team?

    Stats and Typing:

    Take a step back and look at each Pokemon without their abilities or legal moves. Notice BSTs.

    1) A good example - however simple it may be - is the choice of Kyogre over any other Water-type in BH. Its BST of 670 is unrivaled in any other pure Water-type. I've actually battled people on PS using a Politoed and Drizzle. Maybe they didn't quite understand the concept of BH. But even in the normal meta, Kyogre already has Drizzle and beats Politoed in every single stat category.

    [​IMG] 90/75/75/90/100/70=500
    vs.
    [​IMG] 100/100/90/150/140/90=670

    2) I've also played against a Mew before. When comparing it to other pure Psychic-types, it is greatly outclassed by its big brother Mewtwo. Mew might be slightly bulkier than Mewtwo, but Mewtwo's overwhelming Special Attack and Speed more than enough make up for the difference.

    [​IMG] 100/100/100/100/100/100=600
    vs.
    [​IMG] 106/110/90/154/90/130=680

    And if you're devoted to Mew just on its superior bulk, you're much better off using Cresselia or Deoxys-D.

    [​IMG] 120/70/120/75/130/85=600

    [​IMG] 50/70/160/70/160/90=600

    (You can also argue over Cresselia vs. Deoxys-D as well. Cresselia beats Deoxys-D in the bulk department and has a better Special Attack but is slightly slower. It makes a fantastic Cosmic Power/Stored Power attacker.)

    3) A discussion was had in the main BH thread about using Escavalier over Scizor. They are very similar but slight variations in their stats point out that Escavalier is the superior choice. One might argue that Scizor is faster, but as it was pointed out in the other thread, Scizor is not outspeeding anything important that Escavalier is already slower than.

    [​IMG] 70/130/100/55/80/65=500
    vs.
    [​IMG] 70/135/105/60/105/20=495

    Escavalier is bulkier, carries a better Attack, and has a stronger Gyro Ball thanks to its lower Speed.

    4) What about the physical titans of the tier, Slaking and Regigigas? They are so similar in stats with identical typing it can be hard to decide when to use one over the other.

    [​IMG] 150/160/100/95/65/100=670 (5th in Oct. usage)
    vs.
    [​IMG] 110/160/110/80/110/100=670 (9th in Oct. usage)

    They have the same Attack, same Speed, and very similar bulk. But one is bulkier on the physical side while the other takes special hits a bit better:

    Jolly Reshiram V-Create:
    [​IMG] 43.7-51.4%
    vs.
    [​IMG] 48.3-57.3%

    Soul Dew Timid Latios Draco Meteor:
    [​IMG] 70.2-82.7%
    vs.
    [​IMG] 60.1-70.8%

    Illusion Belly Drum Slaking is very popular. But why Slaking over Regigigas? It probably has something to do with Slaking's superior physical bulk. At 1/2 health, it must be wary of revenge kills via priority ExtremeSpeed from faster foes. Slaking has a better chance at living than Regigigas.

    Regigigas has a better time taking special hits, though. It really comes down to physical vs. special bulk.

    5) This last example is not as applicable to the mainstream habits of players in BH as much as it is a thesis of the overall point I'm making.

    [​IMG] 76/104/71/104/71/108=534
    vs.
    [​IMG] 80/120/70/110/70/80=530
    vs.
    [​IMG] 110/123/65/100/65/65=528

    WTF are you doing TEG? Well I'll tell you. I've used Contrary Infernape and it's effective. It boasts STAB V-create and Superpower. I usually run it with a Choice Band, Trick, and a recovery move (Milk Drink...). Plus it has a nice 108 base speed.

    But Blaziken has a better Attack and slightly better bulk (seriously, slightly). It misses out on Speed, but a few V-creates can remedy this. Plus, 110 Special Attack can lend a hand to Overheat or Power Gem for Ho-oh.

    Emboar has the highest Attack, just edging out Blaziken by 3 base points, the best overall bulk but worst Speed.

    So who would you use? I recommend Infernape, just because Speed is so important in the BH tier.

    Other obvious distinctions: Palkia>Kingdra, Deoxys-A>Deoxys, Garchomp>Flygon, Rayquaza>Dragonite, Kyurem-W/B>Kyurem.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​


    Other choices aren't always so clear cut. That's when typing starts to factor in a bit more. Whereas the first examples solely focused on stats when comparing identical typing, these examples compare stats on mons with a shared primary type but different secondary type.

    [​IMG] 106/130/90/110/154/90=680 (24th in Oct. usage)
    vs.
    [​IMG] 100/120/100/150/120/90=680 (13th in Oct. usage)

    Both Ho-oh and Reshiram make excellent Contrarymons thanks to a Fire-typing to spam the omnipresent V-Create. Both have 90 Speed, similar physical bulk, and a nice Attack (Ho-oh edges out Reshiram by only 10 base points here). Ho-oh is wonderfully bulky on the special side, which comes in handy when spamming V-Create but Reshiram has a big fat Special Attack that makes Ho-oh very jealous and lets it abuse Overheat better.

    The main difference? Their secondary typing. Reshiram is a dragon and Dragon-typing is very useful when spamming Contrary Draco Meteors and obliterates other Dragon-type foes. But at the same time Reshiram is vulnerable to Dragon-type attacks itself, unlike Ho-oh, who can shrug off most with its massive Special Defense. However, it does make it a good sponge of other Contrary V-creates with a 4x resistance to Fire.

    Ho-oh has a secondary Flying typing which doesn't give it much of an offensive edge but also means it isn't weak to Dragon. Stealth Rock is still its worst enemy, but Magic Guard Ho-ohs void that and run Flare Blitz (over V-create) and Brave Bird (to take advantage of Flying STAB). Like Reshiram it still resists V-create and also resists Superpower, a common sidekick to physical Contrarymons' V-create (see Infernape/Blaziken/Emboar).

    [​IMG] 100/100/90/150/140/90=670 (29th in Oct. usage)
    vs.
    [​IMG] 90/120/100/150/120/100=680 (22nd in Oct. usage)

    As I discussed earlier, Kyogre is the king of pure Water-types. Another Uber that shares similar stats and a common type is Palkia. Both sport a 150 base Special Attack. Both spam hugely powerful STAB Water Spouts in the Rain. But while Kyogre is lacking a secondary typing, Palkia picks up Dragon. As you've seen in BH, Dragons are everywhere.

    Where does Palkia outshine Kyogre? It hammers foes with Dragon STAB and beats base 90s and 95s. A set I've faced before holds a Draco Plate, runs Prankster, and hits with Water Spout, Judgement, and Copycat. And like Reshiram, it 4x resists V-create (yay) but is weak to Dragon (boo).

    Where does Kyogre outshine Palkia? Special Defense and lack of Dragon weakness.

    [​IMG] 100/150/140/100/90/90=670 (12th in Oct. usage)
    vs.
    [​IMG] 89/145/90/105/80/91=600 (69th in Oct. usage)

    Prankster Nature Power Groudon is a predictable yet effective revenge killer in BH. Not only does he pick off Fire-types spamming Contrary V-create (before they get too bulky of course) he is massively bulky on the physical spectrum and can tank their hits as well. A popular set rising in usage is one with Choice Band. He might also have something to do with why Zekrom is 51st in usage.

    But consider Landorus-T, who can also spam STAB Prankster Nature Power and avoid oncoming ones as well. His Attack is just 5 base points shy of Groudon's and he outspeeds him by 1, letting him Spore first should Groudon stay in.

    When should you use one over the other? While Landorus-T makes a good teammate to Contrary V-Creaters and counter to Groudon's Nature Power, he is much much less bulky and dies to just about any Ice-type attack. Considering Kyurem-B (8th) and Kyurem-W (16th) are as popular as they are, this greatly hampers his use.

    [​IMG] 76/104/71/104/71/108=534 (35th in Oct. usage)
    vs.
    [​IMG] 91/129/90/72/90/108=580 (28th in Oct. usage)

    As I mentioned, I believe Infernape is the better of the Fire/Fighting Contrarymons because of his Speed. But what if he's pitted against something that he ties in Speed with?

    Enter Terrakion, another Fighting-type that boasts 108 base Speed and makes a good Contrary candidate. He may lose out on STAB V-create, but hits with a stronger Superpower and has Rock STAB for Ho-oh (which resists Fire/Fighting) and Lugia. Plus, under Sand support and after a V-create or two he is very bulky.

    Moves and Abilities:

    Focus Blast vs. Aura Sphere? Hone Claws vs. Coil? Imposter vs. Transform?

    Some move choices are easier to spot than others.

    Blue Flare: 130/85/5, 20% chance to Burn
    vs.
    Fire Blast: 120/85/5, 10% chance to Burn

    ~

    Shift Gear: -/-/10, +2 Speed, +1 Attack
    vs.
    Dragon Dance: -/-/20, +1 Speed, +1 Attack

    ~

    Crabhammer: 90/90/10, High critical hit rate
    vs.
    Aqua Tail: 90/90/10, no effect

    ~

    Aeroblast: 100/95/5, High critical hit rate
    vs.
    Air Slash: 75/95/20, 30% chance to flinch (save for Serene Grace)

    ~

    Likewise, Quiver Dance>Calm Mind, Coil>Bulk Up/Hone Claws, Minimize>Double Team, Psystrike>Psyshock, etc.

    Moves that were once unique to one or a few Pokemon are available to anyone. Sometimes, we forget about them.

    What about certain situations? Aura Sphere is the preferred special Fighting-type attack unless you're running No Guard. Then use Focus Blast. The same applies to Ice Beam and Blizzard or Dragon Claw and Dragon Rush.

    When considering what move to use, generally the move with the best combination of power and accuracy is preferred. There are no restrictions so don't forget about unique moves like Magma Storm and Bolt Strike. Also take notice of PP. ExtremeSpeed only has 8. For that reason I opt for Return on my Unaware Arceus. Its goal is longevity, not power.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​


    Some questions to ask:

    If you've played BH, chances are you come across Imposter Blissey (#1) and/or Chansey (#9). While the choice between the two merits its own discussion, what about putting Transform on something else or on a supportive Blissey/Chansey? When does that become more effective than Imposter?

    When would you use Sould Dew Latias (#23) over Soul Dew Latios (#14)?

    Is a slight bump in one stat (100 Speed vs. 95 Speed) enough to warrant usage in Salamence (#39) instead of Rayquaza (#30) even when Rayquaza far outshines Salamence in overall power and has better bulk?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​


    Thank you for reading! Of course, this post is not complete until input from the community is included. There is a lot to cover, some things may be missing from my analyses, or I may be dead wrong!

    Share your opinions and findings. When would you use what and why?

    And please don't trash this thread. I put a lot of work into it.
  2. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Awakened
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

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    Viable Pokemon by Type:
    WIP
    Usage is from November stats
    Abilities/Movesets from October stats (November's were cut-off after Blissey)
    Top 5 abilities, 10%+ usage for moves

    [​IMG]
    Show Hide


    #5[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Multitype, Simple, Unaware, Drought, Moody.
    Most common attacks: ExtremeSpeed, Substitute, Recover, Swords Dance, Spore, Heart Swap, Protect, Magic Coat, Stealth Rock.

    #9[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Illusion, Mold Breaker, Contrary, Guts, Magic Bounce.
    Most common attacks: ExtremeSpeed, Belly Drum, Drain Punch, Crunch, Shadow Claw, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Close Combat.

    @ Lum Berry w/ Illusion (Shedinja)
    -Belly Drum
    -ExtremeSpeed
    -Drain Punch
    -Crunch

    #7[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Contrary, Simple, Poison Heal, Illusion, Adaptability.
    Most common attacks: ExtremeSpeed, V-create, Earthquake, Swords Dance, Crunch, Superpower, Drain Punch, Spore, Close Combat, Belly Drum, Return.

    @ Lum Berry w/ Contrary
    -V-create
    -Superpower
    -ExtremeSpeed/Return
    -Crunch/Recover

    #1[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Imposter, Natural Cure, Prankster.
    Most common attacks: Wish, Baton Pass, Substitute, Softboiled, Seismic Toss, Toxic, Aromatherapy, Final Gambit, Nothing, Protect, Transform, Outrage*.

    *For Prankster+Assist Kyurem-B

    #14[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Imposter, Unaware, Prankster, Natural Cure, Drizzle.
    Most common attacks: Wish, Baton Pass, Softboiled, Heart Swap, Substitute, Rapid Spin, Heal Bell, Magic Coat, Whirlwind, Recover, Aromatherapy, Spikes, Perish Song, Transform, Final Gambit.


    [​IMG]

    Show Hide
    #35[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Contrary, No Guard, Speed Boost, Simple, Magic Bounce.
    Most common attacks: Stone Edge, Close Combat, Shift Gear, Substitute, Superpower, V-create, Magic Coat, Rock Blast, Earthquake, Hi Jump Kick, Mach Punch, Shell Smash.

    @ Choice Band w/ Contrary
    -Superpower
    -V-create
    -Trick
    -Recover

    #50[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Speed Boost, Blaze, Compoundeyes, Drought, Sniper.
    Most common attacks: Hi Jump Kick, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Protect, Blaze Kick, Swords Dance, Sky Uppercut, DynamicPunch, Baton Pass.

    #54[​IMG]
    Most common abilities: Contrary, Blaze, No Guard, Iron Fist.
    Most common attacks: V-create, Superpower, Draco Meteor, Overheat, Close Combat, Flare Blitz, ThunderPunch, Mach Punch, Spore, Toxic, Inferno, DynamicPunch, Fire Blast*.

    *Use Blue Flare instead.


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  3. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

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    Thanks for making this.
  4. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    i'd like to say you shoudl add in rhydon to your comparison of groudon vs landorus-t
    jirachi shoudl also be included in the comparison of psychic mons... in generl though, this is a very good thread :)

    now in response to this:
    If you've played BH, chances are you come across Imposter Blissey (#1) and/or Chansey (#9). While the choice between the two merits its own discussion, what about putting Transform on something else or on a supportive Blissey/Chansey? When does that become more effective than Imposter?

    There is no question that chansey is better, it is likely that the reason blissey is still first is that most people havent adjusted to the fact that chansey with evioltie now works with imposter.
  5. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    As a slight correction, Slaking and Regi both have a BST of 670, not 680 as you have totaled up.
  6. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

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    I don't understand. Blissey gets the benefit of a held item. What makes Chansey better?
  7. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    If I'm understanding, he's saying eviolite will still work after transforming, meaning chansey is even harder to kill. As for choice of item, he's presumably saying no item is as good as eviolite.
  8. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Because of eviolite, chansey will have ~3x the bulk of whatever it transforms into. Blissey only gets ~2x. This means very few things can ohko chansey, while they can ohko blissey, meaning chansey can beat both the things blissey could only beat with a scarf, AND the things that blissey could only beat with lum/lefties
  9. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

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    Okay, thanks.
  10. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Awakened
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    Thank you! Corrected.

    You're welcome. I wanted to do something for new players and the BH community as a whole. Thanks for your appreciation.
  11. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis formerly mantzik32

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    This is great.

    I think weather deserves a mention, specifically sand.

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