BH BH7 Suspect #1: Crystal-Free Z-Moves - Voter Identification & Discussion

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#31
PD this is very important that team you have dubbed needs to be PDT's BH Team because it is mine. I am very triggered over this minor misunderstanding and require lots of attention.

So that this post isn't complete garbage I'll post my team here because apparently the entire world and his mother is using it.
http://pastebin.com/gBS5LQbb
It's a fairly standard balance team that uses Solgaleo + Zygarde to check a majority of its threats with Magic Bounce Xern to check comaphaze and Desolate Land Scarf PDon to check Deo-A spam with scarf U-turn, and check Water Bubble Pokemon. Imposter Chansey + Aerilate Rayquaza help with revenge killing and wallbreaking. It's a fun team and I encourage everyone to steal it. It's a very good representation of how a standard team that isn't Deo-A spam can adapt to the CFZ oriented meta and still thrive.
Like 5-6 people got reqs with it so yea
 
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Likes: PD
#32
http://pokemonshowdown.com/users/ghigcfz
right now my score is 1448 my Gxe is 77.2% and my Coil is 2806. my wins and loses are 40W to 15L
38ghig CFZ144877.2%1732 ± 472806.0

I am going to vote in favor of banning the use of crystal free moves specifically Genisis supernova. It gives fast strong pokemon (cough cough deoxys A) an unfair advantage and can be impossible to counter for un prepared teams. You also know its bad when players are getting wins with teams of 4 or more Deoxys Attacks and actually winning. I had to change two of my pokemon to specificly counter the genisis supernova strat to not get sweeped.
 
#33
So I'm actually kinda unsure. I used to think deo-a teams were the most broken shit and then i found they're kinda fun to play against. Maybe it's because I have good prediction and play stall but w/e.

An average z-spam match

Still undecided, but currently leaning towards no ban. I can see why CFZ moves are unhealthy, but yes they can be countered, and no you don't need to run shit like pin missile ninjask. Just up your stall game.

Here's what CFZ moves let you do
- Let you create one-time lures
- Force advantageous one-time 50-50s
- Completely prevent Poison Heal from going up on non-Electric Immune mons
- Act as a balance breaker

Here are the opportunity costs of running CFZ moves
- You have to use a moveslot for a 1 PP move

While that may not seem like much, it means that
- You have to give up reliable stab or a slot for coverage
- OR you have to run leppa berry with or without Harvest
- Imposters can use your CFZ move with impunity knowing that they can replenish PP by switching out and back in


Do the benefits outweigh the opportunity cost? For fast-paced teams, like Deo-A spam, the answer is obviously YES. However, for teams that rely on other Pokemon, it's a gray area, and you have to think "Is it worth it for my Mewtwo to be able to get past Yveltal if and only if I predict correctly?" For that reason, it's obviously Deo-A/Mewtwo Y/Pheromosa spam teams that are the problem, and CFZ-moves are actually perfectly healthy without using 6 of those mons. While there are some Z-moves that are obviously completely unbalanced (specifically Guardian of Alola), those can be banned separately. Since non-Deospam teams would rarely use several Pokemon with CFZ-moves, I'm proposing a compromise option: Ban CFZ-moves on more than one Pokemon.
 

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#35


Got 1 loss to cd but I actually enjoyed the extra games so didn't really mind.

My opinion on CFZ:

CFZs created a strategy that revolved around trying to OHKO all of your opponent's mons in six turns without requiring any hazards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between mons make an overall game of Balanced Hackmons more fun and compelling, but taking 100%+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive. This was occurring when Deoxys-Attack was used in combination with other mons like Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Attack, and Deoxys-Attack, among others.
 
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#43
Did a bit of quick laddering with what should be quite a normal looking team containing 2 CFZs. Since my first try at BH this gen I never felt these moves as being more broken than say gen6 -ates, and to me limiting them to one per mon is probably more than enough. We have got a whole lot of new emergency sweep checks this gen compared to the past where we only had a select number of walls against priority sweepers and very few offensive checks if any.
Voting for no ban this time.
 

Uselesscrab

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#49
I may have wasted the alt "cfz" by starting out 1-3 (no thanks to the immense reliability of 90% accuracy moves) but eventually I returned to my roots (with a decent record):


And here's my staggeringly-Water-Bubble-weak, non-Deo-spam *gasp*, inexplicable-Sunsteel-Diancie-and-Red-Orb-Groudon team that somehow carried me to reqs:

i feel incomplete (Zygarde-Complete) @ Icium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer
- Stealth Rock
- Haze
- Roost

Yveltal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn
- Shore Up

Solgaleo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Gear Grind
- Metal Burst
- U-turn
- Rapid Spin

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Shift Gear
- Bolt Strike

EEEEEEEEEEEEE (Kyogre-Primal) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Bubble
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Water Shuriken
- Secret Sword
- Switcheroo

Diancie-Mega @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Sunsteel Strike
 
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