BH BH7 Suspect #4: Primal Groudon - Voter Identification & Discussion

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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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#1

Source
What?
I am beginning a suspect on Primal Groudon, as per discussion in the Suspect Thread (see more below)

Why?
Previously banned in gen6 BH, Primal Groudon still remains a fearsome and versatile force, and dominates in usage. There has been some discussion on whether it is once again too powerful to handle with multiple views about the issue (discussion about Primal Groudon has been brought up in various points in the Suspect Thread).

Here is a small sample:

There has also been further discussion on whether Stakeout was what pushed Don over the edge, whether the problem is in "cfz-like" V-Create and more.

How?
  • It's simple; get 2775 COIL in the BH Suspect ladder; you can vote!
  • Do so by making a new alt
I held a poll earlier in the OM Room:

  • So the alt must have the word "Primal" in it anywhere, but as a single word
PrimalHologram ✓
PrimeRealHologram X
  • I will also hold a mini contest, where the alt I like the most will also be given a shoutout during the final announcement in the BH Discord and the voting thread on Smogon
Here are the specific technical details for this suspect's COIL if you are interested:
B=14
COIL=2775
GXE Table:
upload_2017-9-10_22-15-28.png
There have been some questions on why do I need to have a prefix for a Suspect Ladder. While I have plenty of reasons, the key one that should matter is that if you don't have an alt with one with reqs, you can't vote/I won't count your vote.

Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim. A new Balanced Hackmons (suspect) ladder shall be created for this suspect. Primal Groudon will be BANNED on the Suspect Ladder

Do:

  • Post your proof and, if you wish, your stance on the matter, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
    • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. I can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
      • Last suspect I spent a lot of time reminding people about this so I'm saying it up front now; if you don't do at least the above, your vote won't be counted
  • Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS
Do NOT:
  • Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof. (Why? Post in the main suspect thread instead)
  • Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)
When?
This suspect period will last 2 weeks, till September 24th 26th. I will try to begin the voting immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done.

GLHF!
  • 2775 COIL
  • "Primal" alt prefix with image proof IN THIS THREAD
  • Primal Groudon BANNED on Suspect Ladder
  • Ending September 26th

Tagging The Immortal
 
#7
this isn't even a stunt anymore the shiftry team is literally the best one i have. i don't know how to feel about that


First off, let me just say that I used to be pro-ban on Primal Groudon. However, when I saw the many amazing anti-ban arguments posted in this thread, I began to change my mind. After searching, I found a surprisingly versatile counter to Primal Groudon: Fur Coat Corsola.

Right now, you might be thinking "Corsola in BH? Why would I use that?" However, the truth is that Corsola excels at other roles as well. Its sheer cuteness can cause many unprepared opponents to forfeit at team preview. Corsola is also stronger than it looks-- Origin Pulse is a nuke under rain, having enough power to OHKO the mighty Mega Camerupt. As you can see, all you have to do to counter Primal Groudon is think outside the box.

Even though Corsola can effortlessly take a V-create, you might be shouting "What about Ground moves and Galvanize?", not realizing just how easily those sets can be countered. Another Corsola, with the Levitate ability, can handle any Primal Groudon that attempts to use a Ground-type move. Even with its high base Attack stat, there's no move Primal Groudon can use to hit a Corsola in the air.

Electric-types and Galvanize Primal Groudon threatening your team? Well, I have a simple solution for you: Add a Celebi to your team! Celebi possesses not only a cuteness factor rivaling that of Corsola, but also a resistance to Electric and Ground moves!

There you go. Not one, not two, but THREE hard counters to the "uncounterable" Primal Groudon. And they fit on every team too! If you don't have a Groudon counter, that's just lazy teambuilding.

Each and every one of the pro-ban voters should feel bad about themselves. I mean, Groudon's place in the metagame is needed to check opponents like Mega Mewtwo Y. If we ban it, these threats will fly out of our control!

Let's make the smart decision here and not ban Primal Groudon. According to established player DarkRisingRay, Primal Groudon is not banworthy, and how can you disagree with a guy who's played so many games?

Everyone, thank you for reading my post. From the first letters I typed out, I knew I would be reaching out to a lot of people. I only hope that you make the smart decision here and vote no ban. Thank you.
 
#21
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Could make a better run if I decided to stick to the last team I had. Oh well.

Primal Groudon pressures teambuilding simply by existing, and preparing against it is simply not possible. If you haven't noticed how the metagame became much healthier with more creative and enjoyable teambuilding, expect a long essay from me later this week in this thread. This is because I believe having an opportunity to ban Primal Groudon is not removing one of the most important thing in the metagame but it is rather an invitation to revert BH meta back to a state where players are awarded for making good teambuilding and mutually having good predictions. Let's not miss this opportunity. You don't want the ladder where your sophisticated teams get buttfucked by Pdon pressing Shell Smash once while forcing out your Solgaleo / Registeel.

Shoutouts to Stealth Rock Diancie.

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#25
Please allow me to apologize because my callout has caused some terrible pandemonium in this thread. As I promised, I have written about why do I believe Primal Groudon should be banned from Balanced Hackmons.
Primal Groudon's traits completely, if not, almost completely fulfills what we have as our current banning philosophy:
These are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:
  • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
    • A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them.
    • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
  • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
    • Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive
    • It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
  • Centralization: Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. This includes the following aspects:
    • One of (or both):
      • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
      • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
    • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other
"A banworthy Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset, on the merits of its stats in both an offensive and defensive setting. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them. In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards... Because of its stats and typing, the Pokemon can run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive. It is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. There has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more"

Primal Groudon has Fire and Ground typing, and along with Thousand Arrows, it can hit the entirety of the metagame neutrally, and from this fact, one must have a naturally defensive Pokemon in order to make a defensive counterplay. But if you take a closer look this monster has 180 Attack and 150 Special Attack, meaning it is entirely capable of making lure sets to take down its usual checks. It outshines every single Ground and Fire-types offensively. It is dominant in usage, being used more often than that of the mighty Imposter Chansey, and no one in Generation 7 used alternative wallbreakers like Mega Garchomp, Mega Blaziken or others because they are inferior to Primal Groudon in terms of both typing and raw power. Excluding some exceptions like Zygarde-C, Primal Groudon is also a defensively viable Pokemon that can opt to run defensive Desolate Land to completely shut down standard Kyogre, Regenvest that walls Diancie to no end, or even Fur Coat which is incredibly difficult to deal with for unprepared teams due to its offensive presence. Because of this sheer versatility and unpredictability, Primal Groudon should be considered as a culprit that lessened the diversity of teambuilding and turned the metagame into a matter of "Which player abuses Primal Groudon and who gets to set up faster using such Pokemon?" It is one of the few Fire-types that are resilient to Stealth Rock, unlike Ho-oh which is excellent as a check to Pixilate Diancie on paper but has its viability plagued due to Stealth Rock weakness. It is also incredibly hard to wear down over the match due to the typing that provides immunity to Volt Switch and along with 160 Defense, it doesn't give a jack to U-turn from the likes of Audino and Giratina.

Then what makes the likes of Mega Rayquaza balanced, when they also are unpredictable and has good mixed stats?

Mega Rayquaza was almost banned in GKR suspect in Generation 6, and it has better Speed than Primal Groudon and has better mixed offense stats. However, its dual STAB is resisted by Steel-types, meaning it will dedicate a moveslot to hit Steel-types supereffectively. In this aspect, Mega Rayquaza's movesets become significantly easier to anticipate. Aerilate sets need Extreme Speed and Boomburst unless Mega Rayquaza is running Choice Item and by slapping stuff like V-create and Precipices Blades, that is already 3 out of 4. Also Imposter can easily come in once Rayquaza turns out to lack Core Enforcer and easily cut off momentum. It also has Stealth Rock weakness and has weakness to Pixilate and Refrigerate, meaning its longevity can potentially be shortened by hazards and is easily forced out. Let's compare this to Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon already pressures Imposter from switching in consistently because of Ground-type moves that hits itself supereffectively, and as mentioned, it immensely pressures the whole meta simply by having a title called "V-create spammer". This means Primal Groudon has next to no opportunity cost for running extra coverage moves because even if they turn out to be very inefficient against the opposing team, it will still have its dual STABs to force switches. This frees up two moveslots for Primal Groudon unlike Mega Rayquaza which cannot afford to run more versatile moveset, and this allows Primal Groudon to easily carry a setup move which makes it progressively harder to stop thanks to its monstrous bulk that doesn't mind FakeSpeed. Galvanize / Pixilate variants are also easy to imposterproof thanks Primal Groudon's special typing that provides it key resistances and immunities. Having more vacant slots in movesets + better typing allows Primal Groudon to outclass almost the entirety of offensive Pokemon in the tier, only leaving few exceptions being the likes of Mega Mewtwo Y which has entirely different role.


Say, how does one prepare physical sets using Choice Band + V-create / Thousand Arrows along with lure sets of Sheer Force / Refrigerate, while taking care of setup sets such as Contrary, Pixilate, Galvanize, Unburden, or even Speed Boost? This will theoretically take up more than just a teamslot or two to specifically prepare for it, and such strategy will be very inefficient against the metagame. Now you have to choose between making the rest of your team great enough to do well against teams that aren't reliant on Primal Groudon or specifically prepare against many possible sets from Primal Groudon and be mediocre or poor against the rest of the meta. This is where the next quote comes in:
  • One of (or both):
    • It's difficult to win without using the banworthy pokemon or
    • Checks and counters for this mon are insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the tier
  • The Pokemon is so good at different roles/sets that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other
Usage clearly reflects majority of players, even myself has been reliant on Primal Groudon to achieve victories in the ladder and I barely see any teams without Primal Groudon in the highest part of the ladder because it can do so much and is unpredictable until one decides to scout it using Imposter, risking to give a free turn of Shell Smash. Yes, checks for this Pokemon is not sufficient and I doubt any Pokemon we theorize in our head will be sufficient to check Primal Groudon. ONE of its movesets called "Tinted Lens + Choice Band" has singlehandedly led to every balance and stall teams carrying Fire-resistant Fur Coat users just to keep one of its teammates from fainting every time Primal Groudon comes in. All of these mandated checks against Primal Groudon falls to more than half of the other relevant sets.

--
When you all build a new BH team, what is your first thought after slapping the most fundamental things like Imposter Chansey or -ate checks? Be honest. Don't you immediately just slap in Giratina or Zygarde-C, thinking "This will be my FC user." like it is a daily routine? And don't you all lose to Primal Groudon at the end because it turns out to have something more than just V-create and Thousand Arrows? When you think about physical attacker, do you ever use something other than Primal Groudon? Do you forgo Primal Groudon for stuff like Choice Band + Though Claws MMX or Mega Ray? No, you don't. You just choose a better physical attacker with better dual STABs and better chance to prevent the revenge killing. At this point, I am afraid to have arrived to a conclusion that everyone who has no-ban-stance on Primal Groudon has been doomed in a endless repetition of using Primal Groudon, and thus are unable to adjust to using any other Pokemon.

Recall 6th generation. It was rather a metagame of serenity where -ate and Shedinja had dominant presence in offense while defensive beasts like Poison Heal Giratina, Imposter Chansey, and variety of Steel-types formed an equilibrium and left them in control to certain degree. I am aware that everyone knows Generation 7 has brought a huge outbreak to the metagame and we are still in a progress of settling it. I believe we are in the most important step of reverting Balanced Hackmons to a healthy condition, namely caging the beast called "Primal Groudon".

Now, I am not attempting to force people to vote ban on Primal Groudon. This long essay is the reflection of my desperate attitude that requests all of you to think twice before voting in this suspect which is going to produce the most important decision in current Generation 7. We do not know if this opportunity will be granted once again. Remember, this is an invitation to bring dramatic change to the metagame where variety of Pokemon will fulfill their own unique roles instead of one Pokemon having superiority over almost everything else and making the metagame very one-dimentional. I hope everyone, including myself, will arrive to the best decision having our experience, logic, and knowledge all involved. I am open to any objections from anti-ban sides. Thanks for reading.
 
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