BH BH7 Suspect #4: Primal Groudon - Voter Identification & Discussion

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#51
Hello everyone, this is that good old guy who posted the essay in this thread a while ago.
Please do not worry about another long essay, this time I am just posting in order to leave some rhetorical questions about the metagame without Primal Groudon which we had for last two weeks:

  • Were there any setup sweepers that forced out more than half of the metagame, beats its own Imposter with minimal effort, and became unstoppable without Prankster Dbond user?
  • Were there any threats that were able to circumvent its usual checks with more than half of its other sets?
  • Were there any unpredictable threats that could not be identified until you scouted with Imposter while risking a turn of setup or significant loss of health of your Imposter?
  • Were you able to make a setup sweeper which imposterproofed itself with specific plate item, while being able to OHKO Solgaleo, Registeel, Giratina, Zygarde-C, and all -ate users that attempt to revenge kill?
  • Did all of your teams need Fur Coat Giratina or Zygarde-C?
  • Did you have any Pokemon that you could slap in almost any relevant offensive ability and make it work?
  • Did you have an easy time to find Primal Groudon's replacements and came up with creative sets that shined and allowed you to get 2775 COIL in suspect ladder?
  • Did you arrive to the conclusion that the food chain is somewhat balanced after absence of a Pokemon which has excessive superiority over many threats?
  • Did any of your teams end up becoming some sort of "Bohemian Rhapsody" group that attempted to check a threat only to fail and performing awful against the rest of the metagame?
  • Have you realized that the suspect target has been banned in the ladder unlike previous suspects? (trapping suspect allowed usage of Gengarite and Magnet Pull) Did you have an opportunity to experience the different metagame?
  • Having heard from some people in this ladder that the laddering became easier and enjoyable, do you want Primal Groudon to come back or stay caged?

Have a great weekend everyone.
 

Ransei

Let legends be real
#52

Done it.

DON'T BAN PDON! (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Psycho Boost
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere

BAN PDON I H8 PDON (Kyogre-Primal) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revelation Dance
- Moonblast
- Quiver Dance
- Moongeist Beam

Free pdon man (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Extreme Speed
- Magma Storm

I_Don't_Care (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Metal Burst
- Soft-Boiled
- Core Enforcer
- Whirlwind

I'm just here bro (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Core Enforcer
- Defog
- Shore Up

pdon = BH <3 (Audino-Mega) (F) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Haze
- Destiny Bond
- U-turn

As you can tell by the names of my Pokemon, when I first played during this suspect, my intention was to keep Groudon-Primal in the metagame. This was because I felt that Groudon-Primal made the game more fun and that there were so many great ways of using it. Even if it broke the metagame, I always wanted to keep Groudon-Primal, especially because it broke all the massively annoying walls in this metagame. Having to deal with spore spam, Spectral Thief, Fur Coat, etc usually isn't fun for me, and usually the bulkier Pokemon such as Giratina and Zygarde were the ones to run those types of moves and abilities. Facing against an opponent who could just plow down teams with their Groudon on the other hand was rather fun. I knew that regardless of whether it is banned or not, much of this metagame is still going to consist of teams mostly full of annoying bulky walls that give me the urge to break them asap. Groudon-Primal to me represented a large figure in BH, with the ability to adapt into any type of BH team whether it was offense, balanced, or even stall. It's a rarity in BH for a primarily offensive Pokemon to do what Groudon has done. Even if Groudon-Primal is breaking the metagame and banning it is a stepping stone into making a more balanced metagame, I had the belief that BH wasn't gonna be balanced soon enough for it all to be worth the ban. Might as well abuse Groudon as much as possible, because there are still tons of tremendously broken abilities and moves in this metagame, regardless of most of them having limits, which at times isn't helpful. I also noticed, while every offense abuser banned, another one is questioned to be suspected right away and it becomes an endless cycle of broken offense abusers and the suspects were made to make BH as defensive as possible. To me, Groudon-Primal was a piece of the metagame that prevented BH from becoming mostly defensive, thus, making Groudon a fun addition to this metagame. It's also the only one of its kind. No other good Fire or even Ground-type runs offense often. (Zygarde-C has been running mostly support lately and cannot do much with its offensive stats) Even the Groudon-Primal checks I have seen were done creatively, Pokemon such as Swadloon and even gimmicky sets such as Earth Plate Judgment were used to take care of Primal Groudon. Last generation, I didn't really have a problem with Primal Groudon until it was forced to use Red Orb. I felt as if Groudon-Primal was lacking so much and that it was far worse than what it used to be, making BH slightly more dull. Well anyway enough of talking about what I think of pdon, my point is that the decision I made wasn't based on whether Groudon-Primal was broken or not, but whether the departure of Groudon would actually help people enjoy the metagame more. Based on my observations, it's about a 50/50. Many BH players felt the same as I have felt. Regardless, all the people who were pro-ban stated that this wasn't a legitimate argument. The thing is, it is legitimate, because it could affect BH's popularity, enjoyment, and even the minds of fellow players. We also have a question in concern. What if BH is still broken in the far future before Gen 8? Would losing this great beast be worth it? This is what I feared, especially with the speed of suspect tests.



Final Verdict:

After a good 73 battles of thinking about the departure of Groudon-Primal, I have noticed that the majority of the folks who wanted Primal Groudon banned, were more experienced players who knew what they were doing in Balanced Hackmons. They believe that banning Groudon-Primal would TRULY make BH more enjoyable, which left me unsure of myself for a while. Even if it's just a small stepping stone, would it actually be what they say it would be in the future? Would it actually be worth dwindling down Groudon's viability by a mile? Would it still be just as fun without it? I still don't have a clear answer for these questions. However, these 73 matches were enough to show me that while the metagame is still broken without Primal Groudon, it has the potential to become much better, especially with the evidence of BH becoming so much better now than it was during the beginning of Generation 7. I've seen it grown a bit and I think it could work. I think it might be worth it.


"BAN PDON I H8 PDON!"

FINE! give me a second.

Looks like I'll have to listen to Kyogre for this one. Well, Groudon... I'm gonna have to say something very similar to what I have said to Mega Salamence after the 1100+ matches I have played just to get reqs, It was fun using you, but, you gotta go. I trust that the biggest BH players know what they're doing, and if they truly believe this would make BH better in the long run, I'm with them.


BAN Primal Groudon!

I'm out


Not gonna lie, it's been a while since I last actively played BH.
 
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#54
My reqs are here: https://imgur.com/a/K16ZQ


get this boy outa the tier please!

Why:
you can put it on any team, and it just works
it can easily invalidate any counter and almost every check with the right set of moves and ability. Ah so it dies to +3 oblivion wing? Give it dazzling +shell smash. Sheer Force users giving your team trouble? Give it an AV, it tanks any special hit. Need a wallbreaker? Give it tinted lens. Need a fur coat user? It's probably the best one that doesn't get hit supereffectively by Dragon moves. Need a mixed attacker? Sheer force breaks through everything beside Flash Fire Steel types. Need an imposterproof sweeper? Give it Galvanize with an earth plate. Need a Contrary sweeper? It's the best one there is thanks to stab V Create giving it super speed and bulk and hitting like a truck combined with Superpowre and Ice hammer to blast through anything that resists it. Need a Primal Kyogre check? Just give it Desolate Land and all commonprimal Kyogre variants are forced out. Basically this thing can do anything you want it to, and even if it can't do everything, there's notihng stopping you from using more than one. Oh, and did I mention it can fit Sunsteel Strike on any of its sets in order to invalidate checks such as Unaware or Sturdy Shedinja, if you really want those removed.


It's just too good, and if you think you can play around Primal Groudon, you aven't been playing against it at the highest level. Because a well-played Primal Groudon will get KOs. That's all there is to it.
So ban this boy please!

Edit: have you noticed that most of the people who are calling to not ban Primal Groudon didn't given reasoning? Makes you wonder...
 
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#57
I planned to take a break until Ultra Sun/Moon but heard that I'd better get req to vote in such a situation where every vote might affect the result.

btw, Primality Test is a good username imo.

---
Pretty evidently, a possible Pdon ban frees up quite some team building restrictions and makes this meta one step better, at least in what I can tell.

Just some very succinct comments:

-A Pdon-less meta will not be dominated by stall; playing full passively is not gonna be dominating in gen 7 BH. If you keep losing to stall, it probably just means you need a better offensive core! This is a meta where you can run Mega-Kang, Contrary, and countless threatening MMY / Mray / MMX sets, and multiple other great wallbreakers so don't vote dnb Pdon just bc you hate stall.

-Defensive counterplay to Pdon demands a combination of defensive cores. Over half of the time, your defensive switch-ins will get lured.

-Even though in this meta everything can run lure set, Pdon's unique typing and outstanding stats makes it run lure at very low opportunity cost. It is simply too good as an offensive mon.

-Indeed offensive pressure can keep Pdon in check. But choosing an otherwise suboptimal water move as coverage to beat Pdon doesn't mean Pdon is not a broken element. Water Absorb Magearna counters WB Porge, Magic Guard counters IO etc: having some ways of dealing with it doesn't directly proves if sth is not broken. Instead, please take some consideration on the bullet points above.
 
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