BH BH7 Suspect Poll 2.1: Water Bubble

What would you prefer to do for Water Bubble?


  • Total voters
    115
  • Poll closed .
#2
I vote to not ban
I think its common sense that water bubble isn't that overpowered, and even though voting will probably end in ban for water bubble, I'm fine with it. In my opinion water bubble has counters and checks. I've seen damage calcs that prove how powerful it is too, but simply desolate land, water absorb, and storm drain (there may be more) counter it easily. In my opinion it wouldn't make a difference if it was banned, but I would like to know what other people think on this topic
 
#3
Quickban until the main abuser (Pogre) eventually gets re-banned tbh.
Then we can suspect whether or not it's fine without the 180 spa stab boosted behemoth around.

The more I think about it, water bubble isn't really that much better than mega launcher origin pulse back in gen 6
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (30 - 35.5%) -- 26.4% chance to 3HKO
(+1 because Mega Launcher STILL doesn't apply to Origin Pulse in damage calc yet.)

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 251-296 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Water bubble's power is basically the same as life orb boosted Mega launcher, the obvious expense being that you don't get as good coverage options with wb)

252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 258-306 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The next best abuser of wb after pogre would be Greninja-Ash, since it sports slightly better spa than Kyogre, higher speed, and a nifty Prankster immunity, though it is considerably less common than pogre, since pogre just has raw versatility going for it.

tl;dr Water Bubble is fine, it's just the main abuser that sucks to deal with.
 
#4
Quickban until the main abuser (Pogre) eventually gets re-banned tbh.
Then we can suspect whether or not it's fine without the 180 spa stab boosted behemoth around.

The more I think about it, water bubble isn't really that much better than mega launcher origin pulse back in gen 6
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (30 - 35.5%) -- 26.4% chance to 3HKO
(+1 because Mega Launcher STILL doesn't apply to Origin Pulse in damage calc yet.)

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 251-296 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Water bubble's power is basically the same as life orb boosted Mega launcher, the obvious expense being that you don't get as good coverage options with wb)

252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 258-306 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The next best abuser of wb after pogre would be Greninja-Ash, since it sports slightly better spa than Kyogre, higher speed, and a nifty Prankster immunity, though it is considerably less common than pogre, since pogre just has raw versatility going for it.

tl;dr Water Bubble is fine, it's just the main abuser that sucks to deal with.
I like your point of view on this, I definitely agree ban primal kyogre
 
#5
Quickban until the main abuser (Pogre) eventually gets re-banned tbh.
Then we can suspect whether or not it's fine without the 180 spa stab boosted behemoth around.

The more I think about it, water bubble isn't really that much better than mega launcher origin pulse back in gen 6
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (30 - 35.5%) -- 26.4% chance to 3HKO
(+1 because Mega Launcher STILL doesn't apply to Origin Pulse in damage calc yet.)

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 251-296 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Water bubble's power is basically the same as life orb boosted Mega launcher, the obvious expense being that you don't get as good coverage options with wb)

252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 258-306 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The next best abuser of wb after pogre would be Greninja-Ash, since it sports slightly better spa than Kyogre, higher speed, and a nifty Prankster immunity, though it is considerably less common than pogre, since pogre just has raw versatility going for it.

tl;dr Water Bubble is fine, it's just the main abuser that sucks to deal with.
I agree entirely, rather than suspecting water bubble, we should at least consider taking a small look at those two. Water bubble alone can be countered pretty easily, even if it does require the use of an item/ability slot

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 75-90 (23.2 - 27.9%) -- 83.8% chance to 4HKO

Also,

Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. Water Absorb Groudon-Primal: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
lol
 
#6
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 392-464 (111 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 312-370 (88.8 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 324-384 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 422-500 (99.5 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 384-452 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 342-402 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Life Orb Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 432-510 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 338-402 (104.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 268-316 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 536-632 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 264-320 (101.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

... in summary, Water Bubble is the ability that has very limited number of checks that doubles damage like Huge Power or Pure Power with immunity to one of the major status with absolutely no drawbacks.

The 'limited number of checks' that I am talking about are Mega Gyarados, Palkia, another Kyogre-Primal, and Water Absorb / Storm Drain users. Even those who resist Water moves fueled by Water Bubble, they are severely dented when they lack Assault Vest.

Every time I spectate battles and see Kyogre-Primal, even Solgaleo, which is the one of the most common and popular RegenVest, is severely dented or KOed immediately or after a little prior damage.

I mentioned this a number of times in the Suspect and Bans Thread, but something that can only be checked by a gimmick or very specific preparation is NOT balanced.

I support immediate (quick) ban. I want to get rid of this Water Absorb Audino in my team and replace with something that is much more valuable outsides checking Water Bubble.
 
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#9
The Official Glyx Water Bubble Origin Pulse might "not be much better than" Mega Launcher Origin Pulse, but Water Bubble Steam Eruption, Surf, Water Spout, Scald, Water Plate Judgement, Water Disc Techno Blast, Water Drive Multi-Attack, and Crabhammer are all much, much better than Mega Launcher with those moves.

Not gonna disagree about P. Ogre probably needing a looksie on its own, though.


...If I mixed up the names of some of those type-changing specific attack items, don't sue me.
 
#10
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 392-464 (111 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 312-370 (88.8 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 324-384 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 422-500 (99.5 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 384-452 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 342-402 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
* 252 SpA Life Orb Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 432-510 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 338-402 (104.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 330-390 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 268-316 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 536-632 (120.7 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 264-320 (101.1 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
* 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

... in summary, Water Bubble is the ability that has very limited number of checks that doubles damage like Huge Power or Pure Power with immunity to one of the major status with absolutely no drawbacks.

The 'limited number of checks' that I am talking about are Mega Gyarados, Palkia, another Kyogre-Primal, and Water Absorb / Storm Drain users. Even those who resist Water moves fueled by Water Bubble, they are severely dented when they lack Assault Vest.

Every time I spectate battles and see Kyogre-Primal, even Solgaleo, which is the one of the most common and popular RegenVest, is severely dented or KOed immediately or after a little prior damage.

I mentioned this a number of times in the Suspect and Bans Thread, but something that can only be checked by a gimmick or very specific preparation is NOT balanced.

I support immediate (quick) ban. I want to get rid of this Water Absorb Audino in my team and replace with something that is much more valuable outsides checking Water Bubble.
Interesting calcs, I think that water bubble is less of a problem than primal kyogre in general. Even if water bubble gets banned, Primal Kyogre will still be really good in Balanced Hackmons, after seeing many people talk about different sets, and other things
 
#11
Interesting calcs, I think that water bubble is less of a problem than primal kyogre in general. Even if water bubble gets banned, Primal Kyogre will still be really good in Balanced Hackmons, after seeing many people talk about different sets, and other things
What you said is true: 180 SpAtk stat and 160 SpDef is something considerable. I agree that Primal Kyogre can be still a strong attacker without Water Bubble, but the calculations are meant to show the destructive force of the Water Bubble itself, not how strong Kyogre is.

So far I did not have so much trouble walling Kyogre that lacks Water Bubble. But if Kyogre with Choice Scarf starts spamming Water Spout or Steam Eruption, I start to get in trouble if my team does not have Water Absorb Audino. My RegenVest Gyarados can wall it, but it usually ends up getting severely dented or have its ability nullified by Core Enforcer.

I would not have been taking Water Bubble this seriously if the ability did have some drawbacks or at least not have additional benefits (immunity to burn, halved dmg from Fire).

It might seem like I am being quite impatient about this by insisting quickban, but that does not mean I do not think suspect is unnecessary; because it looks like some people have to know what happens to their team when they take Water Bubble - boosted attacks from Kyogre-Primal or Ash-Greninja when they lack Innards Out or Water Absorb.

When there is a suspect, I am pretty sure more than 80% of the voters will vote ban. Of course that will include me. :D
 
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#13
As you are able to see, 65% of voters have supported Suspect. Seeing this, I think there is going to be a suspect about Water Bubble.

I know every single person has their own opinions and perspectives towards everything and I try to respect them; but I would have to disagree on:

Every ban is something from the original gone.
What you said, I agree. Whatever that is out of control, not relevant to this meta or unhealthy for this meta deserves a ban. But lets look at how E4 Flint defines abilities that are not healthy for this metagame:


Ability Ban:
An Ability should be considered for ban based on:
  • "Splashable"ility:
    Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
  • Extreme Augmentation:
    The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond


IMO Water Bubble goes to Extreme Augmentation. Yes, everything has its checks and counters, but Water Bubble has very small number of viable checks. They are usually Water Absorb users, RegenVest forms of Mega Gyarados and Giratina, defensive Primal Kyogre, etc.

Gyarados and Giratina can be way more viable but they are mostly used as support forms due to the fact that most teams are mandated to prepare for Water Bubble. Gyarados can be Shell Smash + Power Trip sweeper while Giratina can function as Poison Heal + Curse support or Magic Bounce + Rapid Spin blocker.

These prove that Water Bubble has brought so many gimmicky (or to formerly say very specifically prepared) sets.

So think again about how unhealthy the metagame will be when Primal Kyogre spams base power 300 move with STAB bonus while not having any drawback from its ability, or Ash Greninja wiping out a team simply by spamming Steam Eruption or Water Bubble with Choice Specs.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh7-suspect-vote-2-1-water-bubble.3593631/#post-7201665 - calculations that prove the brokenness of Water Bubble.
 

Electrolyte

and at once I knew I was not magnificent
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#14
Given current poll standings, I think I have to post my thoughts.


Every intelligent post whose goal is to demonstrate power needs three things: a claim, a warrant, and an impact.

Let's start off with a claim, one which I strongly believe. Water Bubble is broken.

Warrants can be provided in a few ways, and damage calculations are one way. Instead of just a confusing laundry list, however, I will group my calcs into categories, each intended to demonstrate a different argument. If RNGIsCancer 's dump hasn't convinced you that Water Bubble is broken, hopefully this more organized list will.

1. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: (129.7 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: (111 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: (99.5 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

2. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-White: (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO

3. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: (27.2 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AVest Gyarados-Mega: (23.3 - 27.4%) -- chance to 4HKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Imposter Chansey: (14.4 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

5. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AVest Gyarados-Mega: (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Imposter Chansey: (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO


1. shows how the standard, Water-neutral "bulky" attackers of the meta fare. This is benchmark for WB Kyogre-P in comparison to non-defensive meta threats.
2. shows how the standard, Water-resistant "bulky" attackers of the meta fare.
3. shows how the standard, Water-neutral SpDef walls of the meta fare. This is the benchmark for WB Kyogre-P in comparison to defensive meta threats.
4. shows how the standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta fare.
5. shows how the standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta fare against the most immediately powerful WB Kyogre-P set. Consider this to be about a x2.25 boost in damage from the regular 252 Steam Eruption.


Finally, the impact of these damage calculations. What can we learn from them, that will help us make our decision of whether Water Bubble is broken or not?

From 1. we see that standard, Water-neutral "bulky" attackers of the meta fare horribly. I consider Mega Mewtwo Y to be a fair benchmark, which is why I highlighted it -- MMY is the most all-around offensively potent attacker with the best natural SpDef, as everything is either weaker or frailer. It, as shown, is cleanly OHKOd by Steam Eruption from standard Water Bubble Kyogre-P. Even bulkier (by virtue of investment) attackers are cleanly OHKOd. So, of course, being Water-neutral is simply not enough when it comes to being an offensive check.

Then, from 2., along with what we have learned from 1., we can conclude that all forms of offense fare horribly. Water-weak, of course, fares much worse. No offensive Pokemon can survive more than just a hit from Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal. This is scary; this means that momentum absolutely has to be forfeited if a Water Bubble Kyogre-P can get a safe switch in. This is detrimental to gameplay already, considering the fact that gaining momentum in such a way has no drawbacks and extremely little risk - as Water Bubble Kyogre-P is significantly bulkier than the hard hitters of last gen, like MDiancie and Kyu-B, thanks to its better typing and better stats.


From 3. we see that standard, Water-neutral SpDef walls of the meta struggle. All 5 sets - UnawareDino, Prankster Registeel, Fur Coat Chansey, SpDef Support Zyg-C, and even RegenVest Solgaleo are all 2HKOd by regular WB Kyogre-P. This means that none of them can even check Water Bubble Kyogre-P, as switching in will get them 2HKOd. This is even further complicated by the fact that none of these Pokemon can do much back to Kyogre - which can easily shrug off uninvested attacks and finish them off.

From 4. we see that standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta do ok. Consider, however, that these are among some of the bulkiest special walls in the metagame, and many of them (especially AVest Dialga and MGyarados) have gained significant viability simply because of how well they do against Water Bubble. In this regard, Water Bubble does have checks. Dialga and Giratina can Core Enforcer and halve Kyogre's power, and Mega Gyarados can deal significant crippling damage with Knock Off. If all you care about are these calcs, you might not actually think Water Bubble is broken.

From 5., however, we realize that conclusions drawn from 4. do not tell us the whole picture. Suddenly, the metagame's best Kyogre counters are no longer even checks. When facing Specs Kyogre, the only thing you can do in a situation where it gets a free switch in is to sack a Pokemon and hope to revenge kill.

So, from 3., 4., and 5., we see that, while resistance against WB's onslaught can be stopped, it depends way more on what kind of set Kyogre chooses to run, and less on what the metagame can muster up to stop it. Because of 3., 4., and 5., we see that resistance is not enough to beat Water Bubble - you must bring immunity or absolutely absurd bulk (like Imposter Chansey) in order to not have to sacrifice and revenge kill.


And, I will reiterate, these calcs don't even come close to providing the whole picture. What I've listed are the absolute best answers to Kyogre-P in the metagame - and this list contains not but 20 few Pokemon, and not but 5 when talking about 252+ Specs Water Spout. Everything else does up to twice or even thrice as poorly. The two main impacts, the pressure Water Bubble inflicts upon both offensive and defense, is what justifies our banning of the ability. Such an unmitigated and risk-free offensive strategy cannot be allowed to stay in Balanced Hackmons.





Now, I don't want my post to get too long, but I do want to comment on some line-by-line argumentation and logic that I think is flawed. If you gain nothing else from this post, certainly read this section, because too many people are tied up in the specifics and are ignoring the big picture. The big picture is that Water Bubble gives certain Pokemon power to the extent that has never been before seen in Balanced Hackmons at extremely low cost, power to the extent that makes it unhealthy for the BH metagame.

Here are some arguments that I think are particularly bad, and I hope not to see any more of these after I write this post:

1. But you can just run Water-immune Pokemon!

This is the worst argument I've seen by far, but unfortunately also the most common one. Water-immune abilities are otherwise practically useless, so the fact that almost every team needs to carry one is only additional testament to the brokenness of Water Bubble. Honestly, how can you look at random things like Water Absorb Mega Audino and tell me that a dual immunity to Water and Dragon, two otherwise fairly uncommon offensive types, is all that is needed for a set to be viable in Balanced Hackmons?

Ignore the technicalities of Core Enforcer use. It doesn't matter whether Core Enforcer stops Desolate Land or Water Absorb all the time. It doesn't need to. All Core Enforcer needs to do is pose the threat. Also, considering the impact of when Core Enforcer works (you lose your only Water Absorb counter in a team that is otherwise completely swept by Water Bubble) vs when it doesn't (Kyogre is forced to switch out), even if it could only be used correctly 25% of the time, that's still a massive further drop in the amount of times Water Bubble can be stopped.


2. But there are counters!

This is in specific reference to all of the non-Water-immune counters that I mentioned in my list of calcs up above. Though this argument is factually true, its implications are irrelevant. Almost everything has counters. What matters is how reliable those counters are (they are not), how many options each teambuilder has in countering (not very may), and how viable those counters are otherwise (they are not very). Water Bubble is simply too powerful.


3. But it's just Kyogre-Primal!

This is not true either. Ash-Greninja is also an extremely potent user of the ability whose Choice Specs set is even more potent than that of PKyogre. Given that, we could predict regular Kyogre to be a potent threat as well, considering it has only 3 less base SpA than Ash-Greninja, and still extremely good stats, just not to the extent of Kyogre-Primal.

More evidence that Water Bubble is inherently powerful can be found in non-Water-type Water Bubble users. Even Pokemon like Mega Mewtwo Y can use Water Bubble to pull of surprising KOs and to help them muscle past their traditional counters, few of which are Water-resistant. While it may be true that PKyogre requires a suspect (I don't think it does), Water Bubble is still definitely broken on its own.


4. But I want to suspect other things!

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that we're discussing Water Bubble right now. That said, everything that needs to be suspected will eventually get suspected in due time. Besides accuracy, time is the most important thing to consider - the more time we save by expediting unanimous decisions, the sooner we as a community can reach our desired metagame.


5. But banning things is inherently bad!

This has never been true. This was never been intended to be true. This will never be true. This is not how Smogon tiering policy works. If you qualify it by saying "don't ban unless we need to ban" then your post is empty because everyone knows that and it does not contribute to our specific case in any way at all.


6. But I want to suspect it just to see!

Why? We've had the meta for a while now, and there is absolutely no reason to have a suspect if you already believe something is broken. You don't get a tiering badge from this if that's what you want. I'm in it to make BH as balanced and fun as it can be for everyone, and if you already have an opinion on how to achieve that (hint: quickban Water Bubble), then you should act on it. I refuse to believe that 60% of you actually don't think Water Bubble is broken. Don't tell me that you're just going to vote for ban if you can vote for ban right here right now and save us all the time and energy of going through another suspect.





Please my friends think logically, think with experience, and think of the big picture. Thanks
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#15
Yeh Water Bubble is a braindead option to give on any water-type offensive mon. The fact that Water Aborb/Desolate Land Fairy-types are actually being considered on teams is a testament to how centralizing Water Bubble is. And no this is not like Gen 6 -ates where people might say "but you needed to bring Sounproof" due to Water Bubble actually being nigh unstoppable without a Water-immune/resist, compared to -Ates where Steel-types and other priority users limited its effectiveness somewhat.

The ability brings offensive pokemon on the power level like Protean had did once before. Defensive mons struggle to actually check it without going out of their way upon running useless abilities (ie: Water Absorb Mega Audino) or sub-optimal sets (ie: RegenVest Mega Gyarados or Dialga). This type of centralization directly conflicts with the attempt to create a "balanced" metagame, thus leaving me to believe it should be quickbanned immediately.

PM me if you need further clarification, because I will be glad to explain more. Im done dealing with this broken ass ability :/
 
#16
Electrolyte's gigantic yet organized post above
First of all, I entirely agree with what you said, and thank you for organizing my calculations which were placed without order.

Also those who say Water Bubble is not broken, I suggest to try these:

* Make your team or edit your existing team and remove any Water Absorb's, RegenVest that resists Water types, and Imposter Chansey. Then you will experience how does it feel to take base power 300 STAB boosted move from 180 SpAtk.

* PLAY SOME OTHER LADDER GAMES. Especially Ubers. Meet Primal Kyogre and see how significantly it deals less damage than when it has Water Bubble, even under the Primordial Sea. (The Origin Pulse is a nuke but compare it with Water Bubble Water Spout / Steam Eruption.)

* Try using Water Bubble. I literally started playing Gen 7 BH in this account today and in few games:
upload_2017-1-25_0-3-39.png

... reached 1439.


And this was my guy with Water Bubble:

Greninja-Ash @ Mystic Water
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Steam Eruption
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

It just starts destroying the opposing team after I eliminate Shedinja, Giratina, or the likes of them once Stealth Rock and Psychic Terrain is up.

If you would still deny that Water Bubble is unhealthy for meta, PM me.
 
#17
Given current poll standings, I think I have to post my thoughts.


Every intelligent post whose goal is to demonstrate power needs three things: a claim, a warrant, and an impact.

Let's start off with a claim, one which I strongly believe. Water Bubble is broken.

Warrants can be provided in a few ways, and damage calculations are one way. Instead of just a confusing laundry list, however, I will group my calcs into categories, each intended to demonstrate a different argument. If RNGIsCancer 's dump hasn't convinced you that Water Bubble is broken, hopefully this more organized list will.

1. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: (129.7 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: (111 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: (99.5 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

2. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: (64.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-White: (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO

3. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4. 252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: (27.2 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AVest Gyarados-Mega: (23.3 - 27.4%) -- chance to 4HKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Imposter Chansey: (14.4 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

5. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: (60.8 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD AVest Gyarados-Mega: (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO


1. shows how the standard, Water-neutral "bulky" attackers of the meta fare. This is benchmark for WB Kyogre-P in comparison to non-defensive meta threats.
2. shows how the standard, Water-resistant "bulky" attackers of the meta fare.
3. shows how the standard, Water-neutral SpDef walls of the meta fare. This is the benchmark for WB Kyogre-P in comparison to defensive meta threats.
4. shows how the standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta fare.
5. shows how the standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta fare against the most immediately powerful WB Kyogre-P set. Consider this to be about a x2.25 boost in damage from the regular 252 Steam Eruption.


Finally, the impact of these damage calculations. What can we learn from them, that will help us make our decision of whether Water Bubble is broken or not?

From 1. we see that standard, Water-neutral "bulky" attackers of the meta fare horribly. I consider Mega Mewtwo Y to be a fair benchmark, which is why I highlighted it -- MMY is the most all-around offensively potent attacker with the best natural SpDef, as everything is either weaker or frailer. It, as shown, is cleanly OHKOd by Steam Eruption from standard Water Bubble Kyogre-P. Even bulkier (by virtue of investment) attackers are cleanly OHKOd. So, of course, being Water-neutral is simply not enough when it comes to being an offensive check.

Then, from 2., along with what we have learned from 1., we can conclude that all forms of offense fare horribly. Water-weak, of course, fares much worse. No offensive Pokemon can survive more than just a hit from Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal. This is scary; this means that momentum absolutely has to be forfeited if a Water Bubble Kyogre-P can get a safe switch in. This is detrimental to gameplay already, considering the fact that gaining momentum in such a way has no drawbacks and extremely little risk - as Water Bubble Kyogre-P is significantly bulkier than the hard hitters of last gen, like MDiancie and Kyu-B, thanks to its better typing and better stats.


From 3. we see that standard, Water-neutral SpDef walls of the meta struggle. All 5 sets - UnawareDino, Prankster Registeel, Fur Coat Chansey, SpDef Support Zyg-C, and even RegenVest Solgaleo are all 2HKOd by regular WB Kyogre-P. This means that none of them can even check Water Bubble Kyogre-P, as switching in will get them 2HKOd. This is even further complicated by the fact that none of these Pokemon can do much back to Kyogre - which can easily shrug off uninvested attacks and finish them off.

From 4. we see that standard, Water-resistant SpDef walls of the meta do ok. Consider, however, that these are among some of the bulkiest special walls in the metagame, and many of them (especially AVest Dialga and MGyarados) have gained significant viability simply because of how well they do against Water Bubble. In this regard, Water Bubble does have checks. Dialga and Giratina can Core Enforcer and halve Kyogre's power, and Mega Gyarados can deal significant crippling damage with Knock Off. If all you care about are these calcs, you might not actually think Water Bubble is broken.

From 5., however, we realize that conclusions drawn from 4. do not tell us the whole picture. Suddenly, the metagame's best Kyogre counters are no longer even checks. When facing Specs Kyogre, the only thing you can do in a situation where it gets a free switch in is to sack a Pokemon and hope to revenge kill.

So, from 3., 4., and 5., we see that, while resistance against WB's onslaught can be stopped, it depends way more on what kind of set Kyogre chooses to run, and less on what the metagame can muster up to stop it. Because of 3., 4., and 5., we see that resistance is not enough to beat Water Bubble - you must bring immunity or absolutely absurd bulk (like Imposter Chansey) in order to not have to sacrifice and revenge kill.


And, I will reiterate, these calcs don't even come close to providing the whole picture. What I've listed are the absolute best answers to Kyogre-P in the metagame - and this list contains not but 20 few Pokemon, and not but 5 when talking about 252+ Specs Water Spout. Everything else does up to twice or even thrice as poorly. The two main impacts, the pressure Water Bubble inflicts upon both offensive and defense, is what justifies our banning of the ability. Such an unmitigated and risk-free offensive strategy cannot be allowed to stay in Balanced Hackmons.





Now, I don't want my post to get too long, but I do want to comment on some line-by-line argumentation and logic that I think is flawed. If you gain nothing else from this post, certainly read this section, because too many people are tied up in the specifics and are ignoring the big picture. The big picture is that Water Bubble gives certain Pokemon power to the extent that has never been before seen in Balanced Hackmons at extremely low cost, power to the extent that makes it unhealthy for the BH metagame.

Here are some arguments that I think are particularly bad, and I hope not to see any more of these after I write this post:

1. But you can just run Water-immune Pokemon!

This is the worst argument I've seen by far, but unfortunately also the most common one. Water-immune abilities are otherwise practically useless, so the fact that almost every team needs to carry one is only additional testament to the brokenness of Water Bubble. Honestly, how can you look at random things like Water Absorb Mega Audino and tell me that a dual immunity to Water and Dragon, two otherwise fairly uncommon offensive types, is all that is needed for a set to be viable in Balanced Hackmons?

Ignore the technicalities of Core Enforcer use. It doesn't matter whether Core Enforcer stops Desolate Land or Water Absorb all the time. It doesn't need to. All Core Enforcer needs to do is pose the threat. Also, considering the impact of when Core Enforcer works (you lose your only Water Absorb counter in a team that is otherwise completely swept by Water Bubble) vs when it doesn't (Kyogre is forced to switch out), even if it could only be used correctly 25% of the time, that's still a massive further drop in the amount of times Water Bubble can be stopped.


2. But there are counters!

This is in specific reference to all of the non-Water-immune counters that I mentioned in my list of calcs up above. Though this argument is factually true, its implications are irrelevant. Almost everything has counters. What matters is how reliable those counters are (they are not), how many options each teambuilder has in countering (not very may), and how viable those counters are otherwise (they are not very). Water Bubble is simply too powerful.


3. But it's just Kyogre-Primal!

This is not true either. Ash-Greninja is also an extremely potent user of the ability whose Choice Specs set is even more potent than that of PKyogre. Given that, we could predict regular Kyogre to be a potent threat as well, considering it has only 3 less base SpA than Ash-Greninja, and still extremely good stats, just not to the extent of Kyogre-Primal.

More evidence that Water Bubble is inherently powerful can be found in non-Water-type Water Bubble users. Even Pokemon like Mega Mewtwo Y can use Water Bubble to pull of surprising KOs and to help them muscle past their traditional counters, few of which are Water-resistant. While it may be true that PKyogre requires a suspect (I don't think it does), Water Bubble is still definitely broken on its own.


4. But I want to suspect other things!

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that we're discussing Water Bubble right now. That said, everything that needs to be suspected will eventually get suspected in due time. Besides accuracy, time is the most important thing to consider - the more time we save by expediting unanimous decisions, the sooner we as a community can reach our desired metagame.


5. But banning things is inherently bad!

This has never been true. This was never been intended to be true. This will never be true. This is not how Smogon tiering policy works. If you qualify it by saying "don't ban unless we need to ban" then your post is empty because everyone knows that and it does not contribute to our specific case in any way at all.


6. But I want to suspect it just to see!

Why? We've had the meta for a while now, and there is absolutely no reason to have a suspect if you already believe something is broken. You don't get a tiering badge from this if that's what you want. I'm in it to make BH as balanced and fun as it can be for everyone, and if you already have an opinion on how to achieve that (hint: quickban Water Bubble), then you should act on it. I refuse to believe that 60% of you actually don't think Water Bubble is broken. Don't tell me that you're just going to vote for ban if you can vote for ban right here right now and save us all the time and energy of going through another suspect.





Please my friends think logically, think with experience, and think of the big picture. Thanks
Just to nitpick your post, specs water spout from WB pogre does not do 32-38% to 252/0 Eviolite Chansey, it does 94 - 110.7%. If it's fully SpD Chansey you get this:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 480-566 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not even multiscale can save Chansey from the guaranteed 2HKO lel

I'd like to mention that i accidentally clicked "suspect" instead of "quickban" so just incase the polls end up looking like this:
Suspect: 80 votes
Quickban: 79 votes
Then quickban should be the winner rather than suspect, that is if you care to consider my mistake and adjust accordingly.

I had just typed a couple short paragraphs discussing my thoughts on why water bubble was broken, until i realized i was basically repeating what everyone else said but less coherently, so just refer to Electrolyte's post and RNGisCancer's posts for my opinion on water bubble. Shit's overcentralising and needs to go imo.
 

Electrolyte

and at once I knew I was not magnificent
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#18
Just to nitpick your post, specs water spout from WB pogre does not do 32-38% to 252/0 Eviolite Chansey, it does 94 - 110.7%. If it's fully SpD Chansey you get this:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 480-566 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not even multiscale can save Chansey from the guaranteed 2HKO lel

I'd like to mention that i accidentally clicked "suspect" instead of "quickban" so just incase the polls end up looking like this:
Suspect: 80 votes
Quickban: 79 votes
Then quickban should be the winner rather than suspect, that is if you care to consider my mistake and adjust accordingly.

I had just typed a couple short paragraphs discussing my thoughts on why water bubble was broken, until i realized i was basically repeating what everyone else said but less coherently, so just refer to Electrolyte's post and RNGisCancer's posts for my opinion on water bubble. Shit's overcentralising and needs to go imo.
Oops that's Imposter Chansey, I forgot to put that in. Ive fixed it. Nice catch.
 
#19
In regards to all these posts showing calcs to attempt to prove that WB is broken.

252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create in Harsh Sunlight vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 294-347 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 328-386 (65.2 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Groudon-Primal is just about every bit as powerful and nuclear as Kyogre-Primal, AND it gets Ground STAB to boot. And if you take into consideration that Water Spout isn't always going to be 150 BP, then Groudon actually surpasses Kyogre in terms of raw nuking power.
Simply put, the Primals are what's most broken right now, rather than Water Bubble. And if Water Bubble persists as being overly op on regular Kyogre after Primals hopefully get banned, THEN we can suspect it.
Bad simile incoming Saying that Water Bubble is broken is like saying a stick is too good because it's being wielded by Chuck Norris.
I'm so sorry

As for Ash Greninja, it generally just falls in line with other fast sweepers like Mewtwo-Y, Sceptile-Mega, Deoxys-A, Pheromosa, etc. If you can provide solid evidence as to how Greninja may surpass these not just through raw attacking power, since they all have that, then I'll reconsider things.
 
#20
In regards to all these posts showing calcs to attempt to prove that WB is broken.

252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create in Harsh Sunlight vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 294-347 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 328-386 (65.2 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Groudon-Primal is just about every bit as powerful and nuclear as Kyogre-Primal, AND it gets Ground STAB to boot. And if you take into consideration that Water Spout isn't always going to be 150 BP, then Groudon actually surpasses Kyogre in terms of raw nuking power.
Simply put, the Primals are what's most broken right now, rather than Water Bubble. And if Water Bubble persists as being overly op on regular Kyogre after Primals hopefully get banned, THEN we can suspect it.
Bad simile incoming Saying that Water Bubble is broken is like saying a stick is too good because it's being wielded by Chuck Norris.
I'm so sorry

As for Ash Greninja, it generally just falls in line with other fast sweepers like Mewtwo-Y, Sceptile-Mega, Deoxys-A, Pheromosa, etc. If you can provide solid evidence as to how Greninja may surpass these not just through raw attacking power, since they all have that, then I'll reconsider things.
There's a difference between Primal Groudon and Water Bubble, and it's a big one. Actually, there are several:
1. Fur Coat. This exists, and completely shuts down most of Primal Groudon's options. Not only is there no comparable ability for special, this was run completely seriously even in the absence of Primal Groudon. While Special Attackers have Chansey, Chansey isn't enough to wall Water Bubble, while fur coat can wall Primal Groudon. While Desolate Land Primal Groudon was used without water bubble, the current sets are not, much less any other Water Immunity; if they don't have water bubble, your water absorb magearna is dead weight, while lacking pdon just lets you use fur coat more freely.
2. Sweeping. Primal Groudon slows itself down every time it hits, and makes itself frail to boot. Bring in your Giratina, and you can recover off once or twice with poison heal +recovery even if it starts out faster. Water Bubble stays the same speed, and if you injure the user they can just switch to Steam Eruption and still nuke pretty much everything -- Or they can run scarf, and still break down walls.
3. Walls inequality. Simply put, there are more physical walls than special, from Zygarde-C down. It's so much easier to find something physically bulky such as Slowbro-Mega than a comparable special wall, for almost any given type combination. Kings Sheild is also solely the purview of physical attacks, and can ruin a PDon's day, while any Water Bubble user can just spam freely.
4. Power. That's a big gap between those gaps; one can be walled by poison heal+protect clone, while the other one can't. Bar immunities and, Specs Water Spout has 2 switchins, while V-create has a lot more. This also ties into how much better of an attacking type water is, and how with steam eruption you can just fish for burns on any of those few answers, while trying that with sacred fire will end up doing scratch damage to your switchins.
5. Ease of use. the primals have several ses, some of which may be borderline broken, but water bubble has several outright broken users. Primal Kyogre, Ash Greninja, Palkia, MMY, even MRay, and the only reason Kyogre isn't on that list is because Primal Kyogre outclasses it. There's some more theoretically broken ones as well, but they don't even matter because you have such a plethora to choose from.

There's a bunch of other reasons that the comparison falls flat, but those are the really big ones. Even if we accept that the primals are broken, Water Bubble is on a seperate level of power.
 
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#21
In addition to what Quantum said, perhaps the most important thing is Water Bubble is a 2x boost to Water attacks while Desolate Land is merely a 1.5x boost. No better than Drought and roughly on par with Adaptability if the user already has STAB.

Plus P.Don is really the only abuser of Desolate Land (albeit a great one). Reshiram and Mega-Blaziken are rarely seen and, while the former does like it's old Specs Eruption set from the days of yore, it used Chlorophyl for that rather than Drought. So both prefer Contrary these days I believe. And then Charizard-Y... I've honestly not seen one in over a year (not counting noob sets), ever since -ate clause moved Aerilate to "Go M-Ray or go home", so I have no idea what it's even running these days, if anyone is even seriously using it.
 
#22
There's a difference between Primal Groudon and Water Bubble, and it's a big one. Actually, there are several:
1. Fur Coat. This exists, and completely shuts down most of Primal Groudon's options. Not only is there no comparable ability for special, this was run completely seriously even in the absence of Primal Groudon. While Special Attackers have Chansey, Chansey isn't enough to wall Water Bubble, while fur coat can wall Primal Groudon. While Desolate Land Primal Groudon was used without water bubble, the current sets are not, much less any other Water Immunity; if they don't have water bubble, your water absorb magearna is dead weight, while lacking pdon just lets you use fur coat more freely.
2. Sweeping. Primal Groudon slows itself down every time it hits, and makes itself frail to boot. Bring in your Giratina, and you can recover off once or twice with poison heal +recovery even if it starts out faster. Water Bubble stays the same speed, and if you injure the user they can just switch to Steam Eruption and still nuke pretty much everything -- Or they can run scarf, and still break down walls.
3. Walls inequality. Simply put, there are more physical walls than special, from Zygarde-C down. It's so much easier to find something physically bulky such as Slowbro-Mega than a comparable special wall, for almost any given type combination. Kings Sheild is also solely the purview of physical attacks, and can ruin a pdon's day, while Kyugre can just spam freely.
4. Power. That's a big gap between those gaps; one can be walled by poison heal+protect clone, while the other one can't. Bar immunities and, Specs Water Spout has 2 switchins, while V-create has a lot more. This also ties into how much better of an attacking type water is, and how with steam eruption you can just fish for burns on any of those few answers, while trying that with sacred fire will end up doing scratch damage to your switchins.
5. Ease of use. the primals have several ses, some of which may be borderline broken, but water bubble has several outright broken users. Primal Kyogre, Ash Greninja, Palkia, MMY, even MRay, and the only reason Kyogre isn't on that list is because Primal Kyogre outclasses it. There's some more theoretically broken ones as well, but they don't even matter because you have such a plethora to choose from.

There's a bunch of other reasons that the comparison falls flat, but those are the really big ones. Even if we accept that the primals are broken, Water Bubble is on a seperate level of power.
1. Fur Coat is a rare ability that hardly anything even uses or even prefers to use, since anything without a type resist still gets rekt regardless of ability, leaving just Tina and Zygod acting as the best defensive checks to pdon that are really viable. Desoland isn't even the only ability Groudon can use to be viable, there are multiple ates, Tinted (which counteracts Tina and Zygod w/o the rare Fur Coat), Adapt, and many others, while Kyogre is limited mainly to Water Bubble and the PH sets of yesteryear.

2. This seems to address wallbreaking rather than sweeping, which Banded Groudon doesn't really do. As for the argument of Tina, if it's the Tinted set rather than Desolate, then Tina can't quite as easily shrug off a hit, if at all.

3. After doing some research through doing [/ds all, def>120] vs [/ds all, spd>120] I can't deny that there are more overall physically defensive mons, as well as things that could check a pdon, but since pdon is just so versatile, it has ways of getting around them while still maintaining most, if not all, of its viability; while pogre may have less checks, the few that it does have generally do put a solid stop to it, which pogre can't really get around as well, due to other sets not maintaining a high enough viability, and if you use non-choice items for Core enforcer to counteract Water Absorb, then you can't outspeed faster mons, nor can you break down things that would wall it through type. As for King's Shield vs Pdon, nobody in their right mind would put King's Shield on a defensive Pokemon, that's usually reserved for sweepers like Mewtwo, Diancie, Sceptile, and such; as a result, King's Shield vs Pdon would become a team effort as well as a prediction, since Pdon still destroys Mewtwo and friends at -2.

4. Ultimately, everything becomes nuclear and capable of breaking everything when you put a Band or Specs on it. I tried a banded Mega Ray with Aerilate before and it just destroyed literally everything lacking Fur Coat or Prankster Wisp shenanigans + type resist. Does that mean that it's broken? No. As for the remark about Sacred Fire:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Groudon-Primal Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 218-258 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
;(

5. I will not deny that Water Bubble still has a chance of being broken, but with the Primals borking everything up, I still believe it would be hard to come to a solid conclusion. The frail, fast sweepers are generally in a class of their own from the tanky Primals, with Ray being the odd one out in between them, which I believe is cause enough to have them looked at in a different sense from Water Bubble on Kyogre-Primal Which is what mostly everyone is using and basing their arguments and calcs off of to begin with.
 
#23
The difference between Tinted Lens and Water Bubble is, while the former does more damage to its usual checks, it does less damage to everything else than it would with DesoLand, Tough Claws, Adaptability, or whatever. Meanwhile, Water Bubble is strong enough to bypass most checks and it does extra damage to everything else. Considering a 2x boost effectively negates a 1/2 resistance, Water Bubble whatever might as well have Tinted Lens.

+2 252+ Atk Water Bubble Gyarados-Mega Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 258-306 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Tinted Lens Gyarados-Mega Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 258-306 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Mostly for example. It's a bit of a wash since Gyarados would just Dark-STAB a Giratina with Knock Off or Crunch and do even more damage...