BH BH7 Suspect Poll 3: Innards Out [Banned]

What is your preference for Innards Out in BH7?


  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#1
Image from "Stuffed Animal - Yugioh"


This post will serve for discussion and voting for Innards Out in Balanced Hackmons. I will start with my thoughts about Innards Out and then I will open the floor to everyone.

Here is what I feel is an accurate summary of my thoughts on Innards Out, building off the feedback I've gotten from the community and my own experiences.

Positives:​
  • Innards Out is a rare blanket check to almost anything in the meta, affecting even Shedinja
  • Innards Out is a great introduction to BH in terms of challenging the slow-pivot based gameplay that BH really seemed to have settled into last gen. It discourages sending out a wall knowing that the opponent can't break it and blindly pressing U-turn to maintain momentum
  • If the Innards Out mon's sole purpose is to come in and get killed to take down another mon, it is greatly susceptible to chip damage from status/hazards/weak moves and essentially serves as a dead slot
  • With the recent change in BH, every mon can now have max HP leading to better resistance than when offensive mons could not run HP investment, which further strengthens the point just above
  • Innards Out has a hard counter in Magic Guard
Negatives:​
  • BH, without any tier or clause restrictions, can alllow running multiple high base stat HP mons, including the same mon
    • by minimizing defenses, mons such as Chansey can be a great foil for coming in at any time and essentially dying guaranteed to even very weak attacks and netting a kill
    • Unlike Destiny Bond or even moves such as Sheer Cold, this requires little to no setup, but only timing and a guess to do on the switch
    • This mechanic can be run twice in the same team because of the bounds of the ability clause
  • There is no real necessity in running Innards Out only on weak but high HP Pokemon; offensive Pokemon can run otherwise impractical high-power and broad-coverage attacks and essentially can lure and force the speed tie with Chansey, taking it out in the process, or hitting a significant chunk of its HP
  • Building off the previous point, it extremely unpredictable to figure out when a specific mon is running Innards out, beyond just weak high HP mons (which can also be unpredictable due to the overlap with mons that make use of Imposter)
  • Building on the last point, with the recent change in BH, every mon can now have max HP leading to more mons being able to run Innards Out and act as lures
  • The previous points therefore show that this ability greatly puts power into the hands of the player controlling the mon with Innards Out and has the potential to decide which targets he or she wishes to eliminate if possible, which disrupts the game matchup especially at high ladder
Sample Replays:​
Feel free to post your opinion, discuss my points above, make a statement about whether the positives dominate the negatives or vice versa, or add your own discussion points. Relevant support with replays is allowed. UPDATE, IF YOU WANT TO VOTE READ

This thread is meant for semi-serious discussion and extraneous posts will be removed.

This will be a very quick suspect and discussion post, with the poll open until Mar 20, 11:59PM, so hold onto your shells.

Clarification: There are only two options for the poll; QuickBan and Suspect. If your opinion is that IO is not banworthy you should vote for suspect which will then have a way for you to express that opinion.​
 
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#2
Blue texts below are replay for those who were not convinced with E4 Flint's list of replays.

Many nasty stuff happen with Innards Out. There is no denying in that.

Also this requires next to no skill to use to eliminate wincons in the other team, it needs to go, despite the fact that I am literally the worst abuser of Innards Out in the metagame with the second replay E4 Flint posted.

This requires no prediction - just the ability to predict the damage incoming.

This isn't all about Chansey. Remember, 100>HP 'mons with high Atk / SpAtk can run Innards Out as well to do heavy damage when it is ko'ed or achieve KO if it is full health.
 
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#3
I'll go ahead and eat a bunch of words from the suspect discussion. I figured the meta could adapt and make IO much less potent. It doesn't seem it was able to do so enough. The EV limit removal actually buffs it since now everything can run 252 HP at no cost, so a random offensive mon exploding its innards can do as much damage to bulky stuff that previously ran 252 HP without running reduced offense or speed.

Personally, I've not lost a Pokemon to IO in the past good while. However, the reasons being I've been testing near-full stall teams and the other being IO forces me to play incredibly timid. Ridiculously so. You see anything with high base HP and your ability to safely attack is pretty stymied until you can confirm the ability. And it swings momentum hard in favor of the IO user. For example, say opponent has a +2 PH Pogre out and I manage to get Galavanize Fakespeed Zekrom in safely. They also have an unidentified Chansey. I'm stuck in a poor situation since, if it's IO Chansey and I click Fake Out, Zekrom drops and I lose a Pogre check, potentially costing the game. But if I do something else, Pogre might make a ballsy move and Moonblast me and KO/seriously damage Zekrom if I don't switch out, also potentially costing the game. What's the best play there? Heck if I know.

I'll admit, I still do like how IO forces players into strategies other than SPAM U-TURN HARDER AND HARDER! ...to some degree, anyway since, in the replays I watch, people are still riding that move hard regardless of the risks. But I don't think it's exactly healthy how the mere possibility of IO being present forces a player to play like a timid, frightened mouse.

...unless you're using full stall or Magic Guard, then you don't give a crap.

This doesn't even touch on stuff like pretend APS sweepers who actually use IO instead. I've not personally encountered them but, well, they're in the replays above and I've seen some in others.


Anyway, I voted quick ban as I believe a suspect will result in a ban either way. And anyone planning on voting ban in a suspect, please just vote for quickban and save us the time. Considering how hard Water Bubble was banned, not quick banning was, IMO, a waste of time.
 
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#4
Sorry, but what reason is there to suspect Innhards Out instead of quickbanning?

As a community, we've decided that Innhards Out forces unnecessary 50/50s, requires minimal skill to use, and even the threat of it is enough to stop people from attacking a Chansey for fear that a Pokemon crucial to their matchup will be gone. The Chansey could be anything else (Fur Coat, for instance) and you wouldn't know because the threat of Innhards Out discourages you from damaging it due to the risk of losing your Pokemon.

I don't see how this is healthy, I don't see how this requires a suspect and I really don't see why there's such a difference in votes. If anyone on the Suspect side could enlighten me, that'd be appreciated (and give actual reasoning as opposed to "Why not" or "I want to see.")

thanks :)

tl;dr: io is broken and threat of io prevents you from attacking bc you risk losing your pokemon

e: im not asking why there's a poll but rather why there's such a difference in voters
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#5

I still believe Innards Out promotes nothing healthy when it comes to teambuilding as the pressure it applies towards the opposing player is just too much and creates such an unjust risk/reward factor towards the enemy team. It becomes even more dangerous in the no limit metagame where more attackers are able to go mixed as well, creating more opportunities where IO is able to net a kill (and in a meta like BH where role compression is so predominant due to the ubiquity of threats we have, I don't find this competitive). A ban/suspect should be put in place very soon in my opinion.
C/Ped from what I expressed in discussion thread. My opinions haven't changed, the mindgames are too much with this ability and creates toxic environments due to its ability of creating so much pressure on the opposing player. I am sorry, but I do not consider slapping on a IO nuke on an offensive team to check offensive threats as "healthy" (cause a good player can preserve the IO just to keep the pressure on opp). I am voting to Quickban.
 
#6
Give Innhards Out its deserved suspect test, so much has been said about that ability already.

Personally i think it got weakened in full EV meta and its most effective on Chansey.

Haha, that picture is awesome.
Edit; the snail not the teddy.
 
#8
C/Ped from what I expressed in discussion thread. My opinions haven't changed, the mindgames are too much with this ability and creates toxic environments due to its ability of creating so much pressure on the opposing player. I am sorry, but I do not consider slapping on a IO nuke on an offensive team to check offensive threats as "healthy" (cause a good player can preserve the IO just to keep the pressure on opp). I am voting to Quickban.
 
#9
I would like to post in this thread to state that, regardless of whether or not Innards Out should ultimately be banned, it makes zero sense to suspect test this Ability before priority-blocking Abilities, because the latter is currently only remotely manageable largely because of the former. A Balanced Hackmons metagame in which priority-blocking Abilities exist, but Innards Out does not would more than likely be unplayable, even with the lifting of the EV limit.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
#10
The main reason why IO is not competitive imo is the fact that it has way too much reward for minimal effort or skill (much like CFZ spam which was banned). In the hands of any half-decent player, IO can net a key KO which can allow their sweeper to defeat the opponent's team. What's more is that it doesn't even require any big plays for it to happen: the IO user just needs to get a prediction right one time. Just one switch into a key wall that is using a physical move (such as U-turn) and boom, you can now start to sweep. Note that there is a big emphasis here on IO being able to net a key KO which alongside its low risk/drawback quality make it a far superior choice when you compare to similar abilities that have similar effects. There are sets out there that, if played correctly, could net a 1 for 2 trade (as opposed to the 1 for 1 for IO). Some examples of these sets would include Sturdy+Custap or Prank+Sash which basically Metal Burst for 1 KO and Dbond for the other. Another comparable set is Prankster Dbond (without the Sash, just the generic Prankster set) which can also go 1 for 1 in a pinch. But, the main difference here is that IO is on-demand and requires no setup or effort while these other sets do require setup and also have a higher chance of getting outplayed. In addition, IO has the luxury of selecting who you want to trade 1 for 1 with while the other sets do not necessarily have that capability (or if they do, it's to a much lesser extent). In general, IO is a low risk, low drawback ability that doesn't even require setup to use and has low counterplay potential. And of course, there is also the fact that IO can act as a switchin and do the same thing that a Prankster Dbond would do (in the case of Prankbond, you need to switch something in to get sac'd or take damage in order to bring in the Prankster user afterwards and go for a 50-50 Dbond so that maybe you go 1 for 1).

Here's where it gets even better though: IO doesn't necessarily have to even be dead weight on the team! You don't have to run utility sets on IO mons, it's also very viable to run an extremely offensive set on high HP mons with decent offensive stats and you might even go 1 for 2 or even better. For all these reasons, I think that IO should be qb'd.
 
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#11
I think Innards Out should be quickbanned. It is a zero-risk, zero skill, huge reward strategy that is basically Shadow Tag 2.0 in that it can trap and remove specific threats to teams. However, too many Pokemon can run the ability for it to be predictable. In essence, if a Pokemon's HP is high enough, it can be no different from an OHKO move. It's the epitome of the "slap onto nearly any mon regardless of role or stats" (The mon doesn't matter if its HP and attacking stats/speed are high enough.) So therefore, I think we should save time and just quickban IO as opposed to suspecting it.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#12
Sorry, but what reason is there to suspect Innhards Out instead of quickbanning?

As a community, we've decided that Innhards Out forces unnecessary 50/50s, requires minimal skill to use, and even the threat of it is enough to stop people from attacking a Chansey for fear that a Pokemon crucial to their matchup will be gone. The Chansey could be anything else (Fur Coat, for instance) and you wouldn't know because the threat of Innhards Out discourages you from damaging it due to the risk of losing your Pokemon.

I don't see how this is healthy, I don't see how this requires a suspect and I really don't see why there's such a difference in votes. If anyone on the Suspect side could enlighten me, that'd be appreciated (and give actual reasoning as opposed to "Why not" or "I want to see.")

thanks :)

tl;dr: io is broken and threat of io prevents you from attacking bc you risk losing your pokemon

e: im not asking why there's a poll but rather why there's such a difference in voters
same.
 
#13
RIP, I misclicked last night and voted suspect (not like it will hopefully matter in the end) '_>'
(Flint, if you want to just not count my vote or just claim that I voted for quick ban, that would be great.)

Like everyone else, I'm tired of IO. Someone should not have the power to one click kill any sweeper just because they lack a proper check to it. It forces you to almost always lose one Pokemon just by its presence. Calcs to deal with IO Chansey are the ugliest things around, unless you are a special user. It is pointless for me to continue rambling on about the stuff above, so take some "new" stuff.

Dumping calcs for ease of access, probably better/more relevant calcs, but this is what I have on-hand and are not just ohkos.

252 Atk Solgaleo Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 411-484 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (everything else ohkos even at 0- atk
+1 252 SpA Primal-Kyogre Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 378-445 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 423-498 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 463-546 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


And Guzzlord

252 SpA Primal-Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 598-704 (92 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Primal-Kyogre Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 273-322 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

252- SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 546-644 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal (idr where this specific set came from, but it works).
252 SpA Zygarde-Complete Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 612-720 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 618-728 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Guzzlord: 399-469 (61.3 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 510-601 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252 Atk Primal-Groudon Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 444-524 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
 
#14
RIP, I misclicked last night and voted suspect (not like it will hopefully matter in the end)
(Flint, if you want to just not count my vote or just claim that I voted for quick ban, that would be great.)

Like everyone else, I'm tired of IO. Someone should not have the power to one click kill any sweeper just because they lack a proper check to it. It forces you to almost always lose one Pokemon just by its presence. Calcs to deal with IO Chansey are the ugliest things around, unless you are a special user. It is pointless for me to continue rambling on about the stuff above, so take some "new" stuff.
same
 
#15
I want to quickban Innards out because I'm bad and as a Chansey purist™ - I believe the lord of BH should only be using imposter to show us our imperfections and allow us to reach transcendence.

The main reason why IO is not competitive imo is the fact that it has way too much reward for minimal effort or skill (much like CFZ spam which was banned). In the hands of any half-decent player, IO can net a key KO which can allow their sweeper to defeat the opponent's team. What's more is that it doesn't even require any big plays for it to happen: the IO user just needs to get a prediction right one time. Just one switch into a key wall that is using a physical move (such as U-turn) and boom, you can now start to sweep. Note that there is a big emphasis here on IO being able to net a key KO which alongside its low risk/drawback quality make it a far superior choice when you compare to similar abilities that have similar effects. There are sets out there that, if played correctly, could net a 1 for 2 trade (as opposed to the 1 for 1 for IO). Some examples of these sets would include Sturdy+Custap or Prank+Sash which basically Metal Burst for 1 KO and Dbond for the other. Another comparable set is Prankster Dbond (without the Sash, just the generic Prankster set) which can also go 1 for 1 in a pinch. But, the main difference here is that IO is on-demand and requires no setup or effort while these other sets do require setup and also have a higher chance of getting outplayed. In addition, IO has the luxury of selecting who you want to trade 1 for 1 with while the other sets do not necessarily have that capability (or if they do, it's to a much lesser extent). In general, IO is a low risk, low drawback ability that doesn't even require setup to use and has low counterplay potential. And of course, there is also the fact that IO can act as a switchin and do the same thing that a Prankster Dbond would do (in the case of Prankbond, you need to switch something in to get sac'd or take damage in order to bring in the Prankster user afterwards and go for a 50-50 Dbond so that maybe you go 1 for 1).

Here's where it gets even better though: IO doesn't necessarily have to even be dead weight on the team! You don't have to run utility sets on IO mons, it's also very viable to run an extremely offensive set on high HP mons with decent offensive stats and you might even go 1 for 2 or even better. For all these reasons, I think that IO should be qb'd.
Also I agree with this.



k bye.
 
#16
I voted suspect, but I suppose I should have read through the comments first, 'cause I guess they are very right that Innards Out really takes so much skill out of the game. Being able to throw one or 2 Chanseys on your team to deal with any offensive threats your team doesn't like definitely seems really cheap. If we're counting votes based on comments, I'd like to cast my vote for quickban.
 
#17
I voted quickban because I don't honestly see the point in suspecting it. The reasons for its power (and for this thread) are both obvious and already laid out, and at this point I don't think anyone really wants it to stay here. Any suspect test would only go one way. It's best to just get it out of the way before the open starts, so we can get this behind us and suspect protean instead.
 
#18
Also voting quickban here; a suspect test is ultimately pointless, and is also wasted time. We all know Innards Out is uncompetitive, and all of the other points have been said already. I once used Innards Deoxys-A without the Max EV meta; it would probably work even better now. This will end up making all of the other big sweepers more manageable, too.
 
#19
C/Ped from what I expressed in discussion thread. My opinions haven't changed, the mindgames are too much with this ability and creates toxic environments due to its ability of creating so much pressure on the opposing player. I am sorry, but I do not consider slapping on a IO nuke on an offensive team to check offensive threats as "healthy" (cause a good player can preserve the IO just to keep the pressure on opp). I am voting to Quickban.
 
#21
Actually, it takes some time for me to really decide where I'm standing concerning IO, as I have been thinking about it since the beginning of the gen 7. Intuitively, it gives you a definite feeling of "cheap" but I don't want to run to the conclusion just based on my feelings.
Positives:
Innards Out is a rare blanket check to almost anything in the meta
Negatives:
Unlike Destiny Bond or even moves such as Sheer Cold, this requires little to no setup, but only timing and a guess to do on the switch
This ability greatly puts power into the hands of the player controlling the mon with Innards Out and has the potential to decide which targets he or she wishes to eliminate if possible, which disrupts the game matchup especially at high ladder​
Most would agree that IO creates some extra 50/50s for BH, and it brings a lot of headaches. But I don't want to use "forcing attacker doing special calc for it is bad" as an argument since you are also doing some calcs when "lowering defense investment to check imposter." Preparing for both offensive and defensive threats is how you play BH, or almost any tier.

In my opinion, in the 50/50s IO creates, the IO user almost always sits in a somewhat privileged position when it comes to the mind game: the action of guessing the switch to make a favorable 1 for 1 trade definitely has a lower risk than the opposing side. Even the opposing side can potentially see an IO on the back of the squad, predicting that IO switching in and acting accordingly takes a lot more risk and can potentially ruin all the pressure and advantage you have gained before. After all, such an ability is in no way a fair thing to keep.

One more thing, regarding the people who keep saying that some other things are broken and they need such a good "blanket check to almost anything" so that the meta is playable, I would just remind that keeping a cancer to check a cancer is not a good reason for DNB. I doubt the legitimacy to blame "slapping two IOs" is lazy building, though, since sometimes there is no better choice even you take a long time to build for certain play styles.

Anyway, let's get rid of it quick.
 
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#22
It is way too unpredictable and unstable to be allowed. It removes a fair bit of strategy when a Chansey/Blissey can just kill almost anything without much effort
 
#23
Well, I think that Innards Out is an ability that requires no skill at all to use (probably the ability that requires less skill to use from all times) and provides incredibly high rewards, like KO'ing the opponent's most dangerous sweeper or important pokémon for his strategy without doing almost nothing than just switch a Pokémon. Besides it creates a lot of 50/50s in the metagame, makes its prediction hard and risky and most of the time it makes you lose the advantage that you probably gained before.

The main difference between Innards Out and a "normal" sweeper is that IO requires no set up to do the same thing (KO a mon), which turns it an ability with very low counterplay options whereas the other sets need to waste time on the field to set up making them easier to control.

I don't see the point of wasting time on suspecting something so uncompetitive and trashy for the meta so i vote for QuickBan. Instead let's go suspect some real suspect-worthy abilities like the unpredictable Dazzling/Queenly Magesty or Psychic Surge.

Thanks for reading :)

2 replays from my meme team that show how broken IO can be:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-540205526 vs Deez Nuts Junior
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-541836489
 
#24
I voted suspect, but I suppose I should have read through the comments first, 'cause I guess they are very right that Innards Out really takes so much skill out of the game. Being able to throw one or 2 Chanseys on your team to deal with any offensive threats your team doesn't like definitely seems really cheap. If we're counting votes based on comments, I'd like to cast my vote for quickban.
same
I wasn't entirely sure how much IO affected everything due to my playstyle, but it's pretty clear now that it really doesn't have many good reasons to stay compared with its reasons to be quickbanned.
 
#25
I cannot find a good reason to waste time suspecting IO since it forces one to consider that a mon may be carrying it, it is able to be put on many different mons to make them much much more dangerous, and in order to actually beat it you have to use really specialized checks such as skill link and magic guard mons. I would argue that in the current IO meta, magic guard mega diancie is actually more viable than pixillate since you can surprise and KO innards out users.