BH BH7 Suspect Poll 5: Stakeout [QuickBanned]

[E4 Flint]

From E4 Flint's post here

​

Reasoning
I feel that stakeout is the most pressing issue in the meta at the moment. Follow or recap some of the the discussion about the topics here which captures a lot of what I feel.

In addition, I think it meets the criteria that I laid out here when talking about an ability ban, enough to be thinking about a potential quickban.

You can discuss the topic here or in the suspect thread further, or simply vote.

This poll will be open until Wednesday, August 9th. This will leave scope for beginning a suspect hopefully by the following weekend, if needed.

Disclaimer

The purpose of this poll is strictly for me to gauge the opinion of the Balanced Hackmons community; as such, it may not necessarily lead to me following the action that wins the poll one way or another (possible factors could be evidence of brigading/vote manipulation etc), but it will help me make a more informed decision.

 

[E4 Flint]

As mentioned before in the previous suspect poll:

This is the more disappointing one (if true) but I noticed that many said they were voting for the option to only suspect Gengarite (or worse, not suspect anything at all) as a compensatory vote because they felt that something else needed to be suspected first, be it Groudon Primal, or some other mechanic. This is a really wrong way to vote since ideally, suspect topics should be taken in isolation, and the order of suspects is usually settled upon in the main Suspects and Bans thread. Using the poll vote (which I am doing purely so that you guys can have more input easily, since there are no reqs involved) as a way to "protest" goes directly against the point of having them and as mentioned, is really disappointing.
Please do not do this again in the future. Voice your opinion in the thread. I read everything there, I promise.

Take this into account, however you vote.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I'm voting to qb stakeout, but I still believe that it was wrong to suspect it first before groudon-p. Groudon's ability to get neutral STAB coverage from two moves, with 180 attack and 150 SpA, is what makes it the best stakeout user. The reason why you don't see Rayquaza-mega with 180 mixed offenses runing Stakeout is because it can run other sets that make it an effective cleaner such as fakespeed or triage, while Groudon primal, as a wallbreaker, is simply made as a better wallbreaker with stakeout. Another thing Groudon has going for it is that amazing physical bulk. The other common Stakeout users don't get that. Not Kyurem-b whose bulk is also mitigated by its weaknesses to common attacking types; Gengar-Mega which has better things to run and is 2hKOed by any neutral physical hit; and Pherramosa which requires free switchin or it just dies too.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Klang, Anna, Kit Kasai, Funbot28 and all the stallers of the world, thank you.

We, the people of the globe, are now joined in a great effort to rebuild our walls and restore their promise for all of our people. Together, we will determine the course of Stall and the walls for many, many years to come. We will face challenges, we will confront hardships, but we will get the job done. August 6, 2017 will be remembered as the day Stall became great again. The forgotten teams in our teambuilder will no longer be forsaken.

We have one Mimez and His pain is our pain. His dreams are our dreams. And His success will be our success. We share one Giratina, one Zygarde-C, and one glorious Chansey. The cronies have made hundreds and hundreds of offensive Pokémon while our wall's infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and decay.

We've made other Pokémon powerful, while the HP, Defense and Special Defense of our walls have dissipated drastically. Shore Up will lead to great prosperity and strength. I will Defog for you with every breath in my body and I will never ever let you down. Stall will start winning again, winning like never before. We're going to win so much, you're going to get tired of winning.

As you know, I'm going to build a wall, and E4 Flint is going to pay for it, believe me. And it's going to be so bulky, so bulky—let me tell you. We must protect our walls from the ravages of other Pokémon killing our Slowbros, stealing our Eviolites and destroying our Registeels. Today, however, we are issuing a new decree to be heard in every tier, in every other metagame, and every tournament.

From this day forward, a new vision will govern our metagame. From now on, it's going to be only STALL FIRST, STALL FIRST. Every decision on suspects, on quick bans, on unbans, will be made to benefit stallers. Abilities like Stakeout have ruined our southern walls. But this ends now.

Because we are going to repeal and replace Stakeout with a much better ability. Let me tell you, let me tell you... with our new ability, Wonder Guard, we, the people of Smogon, are going to keep illegal

aliens out of our metagame. Because in Smogon, we don't worship offense, we worship stall! Together, we will make Stall strong again. We will make Stall bulky again. We will make Stall safe again. And yes, together, WE WILL MAKE STALL GREAT AGAIN.

Thank you, Mimez bless you, and Mimez bless stall!

 

[dom]

voted for suspect because i want to impregnate the ladder with my 6 gengars again

i don't actively play this meta or anything, but why would we quickban something so late in the metagame? i really see no reason not to suspect it even if it is super broken.

 

[aki0s]

I voted suspect and I believe suspect is the better option here. I say this because I think everyone must be able to make a (more) informed decision on the matter after seeing it in practise. Quickbans never sit well with me on something that has been in the metagame for quite awhile.

 

[Rumors]

Gonna publicly abstain. While I do see Stakeout as a symptom of a major problem, it's just the symptom and I'm not entirely convinced its broken. However, I'm not entirely convinced its not broken either.

I suppose I might prefer a quick ban to a suspect since I bet it'll most likely be banned anyway (didn't really see anyone arguing in favor of it beyond "there's more important things to do first") and I'd rather save time. I would like to suspect but... we got some cleaning to do in BH and USUM isn't releasing any later. But, I'll just let things play out unless someone convinces me otherwise.

 

[ElMustacho]

I'm voting suspect because I don't want it banned. Also you are all praising Primal Groudon while MMY is probably better at stakeouting. I'm currently running a team based around psy surge deo-a + stakeout specs mmy and I must say mmy has less switchins than fingers on his hand. Psycho Boost + Fleur Cannon + Moongeist Beam lets you hit almost everything for the OHKO (bar imposter (that hates switching in anyway) and regenvest Registeel but it dies to searing shot if you run it). Unlike pdon, that can still run coverage to hit everything it wants but coverage moves only hits 1 or 2 specific targets, MMY is far more likely to murder whatever has in front of him and isn't switching out. For example it has chances to steamroll Giratina with this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (96.4 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
That is actually better than Fleur cannon.
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Running +spDef won't help. Pdon meanwhile can't 2hko (at least stakeout doesn't).
Another issue that pdon has is that it won't break the switchin if the opponent predicts correctly (fur coat giratina can switch on stakeout V create, registeel can switch on stakeout fleur cannon). MMY cares much less.
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Psychic Terrain: 376-443 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Registeel on Psycho Boost is a correct switch on theory.
The only question MMY asks itself is:"are solgaleo or dark types switching in?"
If not it just Psycho Boosts (using this as a verb) the opponent out of the Earth orbit. Otherwise the switchin is wiped out by coverage.
Meanwhile you are immune to priority due to terrain. At the same time pdon is quite slow and is removed by an unpredictable steam eruption from base 130+ spa, like from a yveltal.

 

[Funbot28]

Voted Quickban

The ability has been here long enough for me to gauge whether it is broken or not for me and honestly I kinda had enough of Stakeout's recent devastating influx on the meta. If Adrian's post said anything, it what was that stall must make a comeback full force, and having an ability that can potentially remove all possible opposing switch-ins is just not fun to build / play against.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

Voted Suspect.


I think Stakeout was stronger in Gengarnite meta, people switch less now.
The only true Stakeout poke is Kartana, as its the only poke getting a chance to 1HKO neutral Giratina.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 241-285 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285)

P-Don is P-Don and the MMY sets are the same as in the Innhards Out meta.


Stakeout prevents those long matches where the first KO happens turn 70.
I see it mostly as a stall vs stall issue.

 

[ElMustacho]

Voted Suspect.


I think Stakeout was stronger in Gengarnite meta, people switch less now.
The only true Stakeout poke is Kartana, as its the only poke getting a chance to 1HKO neutral Giratina.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 241-285 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285)

P-Don is P-Don and the MMY sets are the same as in the Innhards Out meta.


Stakeout prevents those long matches where the first KO happens turn 70.
I see it mostly as a stall vs stall issue.

Excuse me, what? 2 posts before yours I made calcs showing that mmy has chances of OHKOing with terrain boosted Psycho boosts, and 2HKOes with either Moongeist Beam or Fleur Cannon without Stakeout (all of them are OHKO on the switch, with fleur and boost even assuming an AV). How can you say that kartana is the only one that can 1hko neutral Giratina?

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Quckban, reasoning is the same as Funbot's.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I have voted Quickban.

Probably no one will listen to me at this point, but I say what I wish to say.

Initially I thought Primal Groudon was the most stressful and prominent factor dealing with the overall issue, but I changed my mind. Yes, Primal Groudon is Primal Groudon. It has the best dual STAB in the game, its base stats are just unfair. But as I have been laddering over a long time, I have noticed that there are more than just Primal Groudon abusing Stakeout. Am I pushing Quickban on Stakeout just because I want to get rid of this topic and move onto banning Primal Groudon next? Heck no. I am not here to ask you to join Anti-Pdon club. Hear me out.

When I have strongly asserted that Primal Groudon should be suspected prior to Stakeout, and Stakeout is not an issue, I argued that Primal Groudon is banworthy due to insufficient ways to make defensive counterplays. I was trapped in a mindset like this: "Primal Groudon has enough power and good typing that lets it run many different abilities and tweak its moveset to threaten any of its usual checks." However, as I have been observing other Stakeout users - Mega Mewtwo X and Y, sometimes Mega Rayquaza and Mega Garchomp, or even Pheromosa - doubling the damage on switch-in simply removes the drawback of any attackers using non-STAB coverage move. For example, MMX has an awful dual STAB that is easily walled. Without boosting moves and Stakeout, it can never, ever break any Giratina variants barring hax. It doesn't care about Ice Beam, it doesn't care about anything that comes from -2 MMX after it hit Giratina with something like Fleur Cannon or Draco Meteor. But the story goes a little different if MMX has Stakeout. It sits in front of Registeel, and it can decide to press Close Combat or instantly remove Giratina from the game on switch, without giving it a second chance. This is very huge reward for wallbreakers for getting a single prediction right. Even outsides mixed attackers, the issue is the same. It is nearly impossible for a wall to have a typing that resists STAB moves AND all possible coverage moves from an attacker at the same time. If we think about MMY, it has an option to carry Moongeist Beam to hit Solgaleo, Secret Sword / Fleur Cannon to hit Mega Gyarados, Earth Power / Overheat to hit Registeel, Ice Beam / Volt Switch to hit Yveltal and more. And if we hypothesize MMY carries Stakeout, it will be impossible to wall it except by counter-team'ing and / or acquiring a wall that is dedicated to stop an attacker.

It is said that Imposterproofing a Stakeout user is the biggest drawback of such ability. However, that isn't a reason that we should keep an ability that potentially lets any relevant attackers to remove their usual checks from the game on switch. Sacrificing and dedicating a team slot is considered 'worth' to people who are willing to create a monstrous wallbreaker that is able to OHKO the entire metagame barring its Imposter. We no longer have a reason to keep an ability that features scenes where a 'mon has to faint every time a wallbreaker switches in.

Thanks.

 

[Balanced Freakmons]

Vote for Quickban.
Stakeout is another uncompetitive Ability brought by gen 7 that has the marvelous broken effect of doubling the power of the move you use against targets that have switched in this turn. Well, this gives to the already OP Primal Groudon, Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Mewtwo X a new toy to play. And this Ability may be hidden on any Pokémon, meaning that you need to consider Mega Rayquaza or Mega Diancie as possible users too.
What kind of coverage does your opponent run? You never know. You need to risk your Pokémon to discover. What happens if you expect a “normal” Primal Groudon set and get hit by a surprising Stakeout Fleur Cannon? Yeah, its bye bye Fur Coat Wall! We lose a probably important pokémon for the match. The meta is so full of threats that if we lose a certain mon that checks a certain threat we can lose the game, regardless of skill, ladder position, everything. We can't continue to lose our pokémon at the mercy of an ability that requires no skill to use. It's just brutal power by itself. A banded set with V-create/Precipice Blades/Fleur Cannon/Bolt Strike has pratically no safe switch-in. Stakeout Calcs for Groudon. Any other physical attacker like Ray or MMX could be used (adding +2 attack on the calculator to simulate Stakeout):

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 436-514 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Banded Stake-out!)

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 522-615 (129.2 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 504-594 (122.9 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Scarf Stakeout, not even Band!)

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 253-298 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 349-412 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf Stakeout, vs a classic Poison Heal Tina)

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Swampert-Mega: 452-536 (111.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These calcs show how overpowered can Stakeout be. An ability that can remove all possible opposing switch-ins is more uncompetitive than it is unfair and unhealthy for the metagame. So, in order to turn BH a more playable meta, get this broken ability out of my sight.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Vote for Quickban.
Stakeout is another uncompetitive Ability brought by gen 7 that has the marvelous broken effect of doubling the power of the move you use against targets that have switched in this turn. Well, this gives to the already OP Primal Groudon, Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Mewtwo X a new toy to play. And this Ability may be hidden on any Pokémon, meaning that you need to consider Mega Rayquaza or Mega Diancie as possible users too.
What kind of coverage does your opponent run? You never know. You need to risk your Pokémon to discover. What happens if you expect a “normal” Primal Groudon set and get hit by a surprising Stakeout Fleur Cannon? Yeah, its bye bye Fur Coat Wall! We lose a probably important pokémon for the match. The meta is so full of threats that if we lose a certain mon that checks a certain threat we can lose the game, regardless of skill, ladder position, everything. We can't continue to lose our pokémon at the mercy of an ability that requires no skill to use. It's just brutal power by itself. A banded set with V-create/Precipice Blades/Fleur Cannon/Bolt Strike has pratically no safe switch-in. Stakeout Calcs for Groudon. Any other physical attacker like Ray or MMX could be used (adding +2 attack on the calculator to simulate Stakeout):

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 436-514 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Banded Stake-out!)

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 522-615 (129.2 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 504-594 (122.9 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Scarf Stakeout, not even Band!)

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Audino-Mega: 253-298 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 349-412 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf Stakeout, vs a classic Poison Heal Tina)

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 288-340 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Swampert-Mega: 452-536 (111.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These calcs show how overpowered can Stakeout be. An ability that can remove all possible opposing switch-ins is more uncompetitive than it is unfair and unhealthy for the metagame. So, in order to turn BH a more playable meta, get this broken ability out of my sight.

Not arguing that it's broken one way or another (been busy with mnm for ompl recently so haven't had too much of a chance to test) but those calcs seem off. First you must recall it's only +2 on the switchin (doesn't work after they're in or if pdon comes in on them). Second, Power Whip seems fairly mediocre, why not just use Bolt Strike to hit POgre/MGyar cuz it also hits Celesteela? Afaik Cele is more relevant than MegaPert. Also you use a different ground move every time (pblades vs. eq) and arrows never makes an appearance? Unless i'm so behind the times that nobody uses arrows anymore that should be somewhere. Also you didn't calc vs. stuff like FC POgre/Tina. And lol @ the non FC MAudino calc like ofc 180 BP STAB off of 180 Attack Adamant at +2 is gonna OHKO neutral 103/126 defences, if anything I'm surprised the rolls aren't higher. Stakeout seems like somewhat of a prediction game too because you only beat tina/zygc if you catch them with IB/Fleur Cannon on the switch, and then they stay in, but because you can assume pdon has smth for these checks you can scout around first and if they click Fleur Cannon vs. a Solgaleo for example you can get some nice chip since stakeout mons don't normally run recovery. Also it just doesn't boost at all if they don't switch and you might as well be running Illuminate (although I do understand that generally you bring it in on stuff it forces out to nab the boost). Like I said though I haven't had too much of an opportunity to test so I'm undecided atm, just my 2 cents cuz I thought this post seemed weird and figured I might as well post what I think as well.

 

[Balanced Freakmons]

Also you didn't calc vs. stuff like FC POgre/Tina.

InfernapeTropius11 here are some calcs that can make you change your opinion:

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs fur coat Pogre. And if don carries Bolt Strike, there's a large chance to finnish the work, even non boosted by stakeout anymore: 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 175-207 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO vs FC tina.

This ability is ridiculously OP because you can break or almost break any wall. Once again, watch out for the next coverage move don can use: 252- SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 198-234 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Beats your giratina.

Stakeout seems like somewhat of a prediction game too because you only beat tina/zygc if you catch them with IB/Fleur Cannon on the switch

That's precisely what Stakeout Groudons of high ladder players do. If your opponent predicts well, you have no safe switch ins. And even if you switch to a Solgaleo predicting a Fleur Cannon (you need to have already scout the move, so prob your FC dragon has taken one hit), if the Groudon is not Choice Band/Scarf, he can use its ground move vs it because its faster.

Be aware that the calcs are for Groudon, but you have MMY and MMX as two more Stakeout Weapons:

+2 252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Add a potential (and almost certain) Fusion Bolt/Bolt Strike as coverage move and you can guess what happens.
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 334-394 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The next hit is at +0 and we have the following damage: 252+ Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Giratina: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. This means that if you stay with tina you die, and if you switch, you heavilly damage other of your pokémon.

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 374-442 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 393-463 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And for the specs Stakeout MMY, the new fashion toy these days, it can OHKO 252+ tina with a non STAB move LOL:
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 562-662 (111.5 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 589-694 (116.8 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The amount of damage, even if the move isn't supereffective or STAB, is still huge to be healthy to the metagame. Stakeout is so centralizing that you normally need to run 1 or 2 mons to check it. And as I said previously, you don't know what kind of coverage moves does your opponent runs while you don't check it. And when you check, meaning you take one surprising move, it may be too late...

 

[cityscapes]

hi

i think there is a problem with the suspect process

the main issue i see is the existence of the polls. i get the purpose of them (to quicken potential suspects) but the whole thing seems very arbitrary to me. only some suspects get these polls? the poll outcome doesn't decide the suspect outcome, it just makes it more likely? stakeout gets suspect or quickban while trapping gets suspect or nothing? also everyone can vote so a bunch of people who know nothing about bh could just come in and sway the polls if they wanted.

another problem i see is that these suspect v quickban polls drastically increase the chance of something being banned. most of the time it's for the better, because we've only had suspects on things that are pretty clearly broken so far (with the possible exception of magnet pull), but what happens when something that's not broken comes up and you make a qb v suspect poll? i know you're pretty aware of the metagame and stuff but there's always the possibility, however low, that you could disagree with what the people in the thread say and the element would be banned due to the sheer influence of random players coming in and voting qb.

i'm still on the fence about stakeout myself, like i'd probably vote ban if this goes to a suspect but i might throw out some anti ban posts for you guys to pick apart

i voted suspect because i wanted this to be a more "fair" vote but who are the other 48 people who voted suspect? verlisify and his 47 fans? are they voting suspect because they want to spam stakeout on the ladder more? do they believe stakeout isn't broken despite the numerous posts in the thread? if they do, why aren't they posting about how they think it isn't? (if you voted suspect please do this) shoutouts to my man gmu

man sorry if that sounded mean because i didn't intend it to sound that way, but all i see are people saying "stakeout is broken because this this and this" and the poll almost at a 50/50. and i want that to change. we need opposition to qb in the thread to match the opposition to qb in the poll because otherwise what's the point of posting here man? thanks.

 

[tegrof19]

i mean when you get arguments like this for anti qb

voted for suspect because i want to impregnate the ladder with my 6 gengars again

I'm voting suspect but bunch of calcs showing how it dismantles stall

you can see why avid bh players are wary of this

 

[Rumors]

Silver_Lucario42 So maybe like something TI suggested to me: manually written votes with reasoning required to be included? It would solve a bunch of issues you mentioned here for the suspect vs QB poll (and it also addresses most of the issues I brought up for the suspect process itself.)

 

[CashKP]

Alright I know nothing about BH but I am still voting quick ban. Basically from talking to a lot of my old friends and some new faces most people want it banned. Even people that want the suspect still want the ban. Suspects are annoying and time consuming. Why would we waste everyones time when we know the ban votes will just flood in. Quick ban is easier on the whole community, literally everyone involved will benefit from quick ban. Even people that want to vote no ban will benefit from quick ban just because you dont have to waste your time laddering for reqs just to get outvoted.

People just want a suspect because it's something to do. It brings more people to the ladder and it gives you a goal instead of mindlessly laddering trying to maybe hopefully get top 10. That's not a reason to have a suspect, things only should be suspected when you think the votes will be close and the community is divided.

Lets be totally real here for a second. Most of the top players want ban. Those players will be all getting reqs and voting ban. The suspect system is literally designed to accommodate the top ladder players. If you are a middle of the pack player dont bother voting suspect because you will really just make yourself stressed out because you arnt good enough to get the reqs. You will play 500 games wasting countless hours and then you will just lie to your friends and say you had a busy week with your family or whatever excuse you come up with and that's the reason you didnt get reqs. We have all been there. Save yourself some time and just quick ban this thing.

 

[MAMP]

I'm voting suspect because I don't want it banned. Also you are all praising Primal Groudon while MMY is probably better at stakeouting. I'm currently running a team based around psy surge deo-a + stakeout specs mmy and I must say mmy has less switchins than fingers on his hand. Psycho Boost + Fleur Cannon + Moongeist Beam lets you hit almost everything for the OHKO (bar imposter (that hates switching in anyway) and regenvest Registeel but it dies to searing shot if you run it). Unlike pdon, that can still run coverage to hit everything it wants but coverage moves only hits 1 or 2 specific targets, MMY is far more likely to murder whatever has in front of him and isn't switching out. For example it has chances to steamroll Giratina with this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Psychic Terrain: 486-573 (96.4 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
That is actually better than Fleur cannon.
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Running +spDef won't help. Pdon meanwhile can't 2hko (at least stakeout doesn't).
Another issue that pdon has is that it won't break the switchin if the opponent predicts correctly (fur coat giratina can switch on stakeout V create, registeel can switch on stakeout fleur cannon). MMY cares much less.
+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Psychic Terrain: 376-443 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Registeel on Psycho Boost is a correct switch on theory.
The only question MMY asks itself is:"are solgaleo or dark types switching in?"
If not it just Psycho Boosts (using this as a verb) the opponent out of the Earth orbit. Otherwise the switchin is wiped out by coverage.
Meanwhile you are immune to priority due to terrain. At the same time pdon is quite slow and is removed by an unpredictable steam eruption from base 130+ spa, like from a yveltal.

'stakeout shouldnt be banned'
'stakeout mmy ohkos the whole meta'

can you explain to me what the point of this post is

 

[ElMustacho]

'stakeout shouldnt be banned'
'stakeout mmy ohkos the whole meta'

can you explain to me what the point of this post is

Ok first I didn't say it shouldn't be banned, I said I don't want it banned.
Second there's a good portion of people believing that pdon (or other stuff) is worth banning and think that it should be suspected or quickbanned before Stakeout, and while I don't have a preferred order of suspecting something right now, now we have to talk about Stakeout. As a comparison, those calcs show that pdon isn't the destructive power that it seems to be when talking about Stakeout (the argument of the discussion) and I showed that to have more people talk about Stakeout.

 

[willdbeast]

hi

another problem i see is that these suspect v quickban polls drastically increase the chance of something being banned. most of the time it's for the better, because we've only had suspects on things that are pretty clearly broken so far (with the possible exception of magnet pull), but what happens when something that's not broken comes up and you make a qb v suspect poll? i know you're pretty aware of the metagame and stuff but there's always the possibility, however low, that you could disagree with what the people in the thread say and the element would be banned due to the sheer influence of random players coming in and voting qb.

I don't think that this would realistically increase the chances of anything being banned based on the fact that in this thread there is a massive consensus that Stakeout is banworthy but the poll is still neck and neck (53/50 at time of posting), so if something like this barely has a majority for qb, how on earth would something more controversial manage?

As for the polls being "arbitrary" I believe that our Corrupt Leader is sufficiently competent to only post a poll for qb where he feels the ban is inevitable and should be sped up whereas in the case of trapping (especially magnet pull) the actual suspect was fairly close so Flint was probably right to not offer the option of quick ban since it seems very unlikely it would have happened.

As for your point about "random players" voting and forcing something to happen, I think you need to give Flint more credit lol, I highly doubt he would just blindly follow a poll and he's obviously aware of these issues and takes it into account.