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Billie Mays here with Moxie Clean

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Himper, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Himper

    Himper

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    [​IMG]

    Hello there, I am sure my witty title attracted your attention, however aside from getting people's views (and Luvdiscs...come on :d) it does serve a purpose. It's a reference to Moxie Gyarados, the main bulk of the team. Gyarados, despite being OU, is very underused in the metagame, possibly due to the increase in demand for Stealth Rock as well as Rotom-W and Chlorophyll, Gyarados is in the shadows. D/P/P EVERY team had to account for a Gyarados due to the massive trail of destruction it can inflict, but now I looked at almost every RMT in the first three pages here and not even a single Gyarados was used. With people accounting for other threats (Keldeo, Terrakion, Jellicent) Gyarados has the ability to sweep easily as some people can get caught off guard by it. With Moxie, Gyarados in my opinion, got a huge buff this Gen as even 1 kill on Gyarados spells D and another kill finishing off the OOM (doom btw)
    To be able to utilize Gyarados, I had to build a team that not only worked to pave a path for the serpent, but a team that can function on it’s own should Gyarados be left in the dust. I had to utilize everything I can and I came up with this team:

    03/01/2013 EDIT~ Any future edits will be reflected and shown in my 2 second post on the first page (post #11). I will keep THAT post updated for each future change done, but this OP will stay exactly as is so you lovely helpers can see what I was originally aiming at.



    Importable
    Show Hide
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 212 Spd / 120 Atk / 176 HP
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SDef / 30 Spd
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Spd / 220 Def
    Impish Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave
    - U-turn

    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Blast

    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
    - Lava Plume
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Thunderbolt


    At a Glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The process
    [​IMG]

    Detailed set explanations

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 212 Speed / 120 Atk / 176 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge

    Well, he is the star and I might as well get into some depth. Gyarados is by far one of the most devastating Pokemon out there and for good reason. With a combination of reasonable bulk, good typing, and high attack power, Gyarados can handle a whole team by himself if the other guy is unprepared or if that one Pokemon is down. With Moxie, no one on the other team can afford to die, as even 1 kill can be enough momentum for Gyarados, hence the amazing title! Some might want to go 252 in Attack/Speed, which is fine as well, however I truly believe that spread does not utilize Gyarados’ abilities to the best it can. Gyarados has great bulk, 95 HP/79 Def/100 SpD and the ability to counter Fighting and Earthquake attacks well. By investing in HP and attack , Gyarados becomes a monster tank. It will be very hard to takedown after a DD, offensively and defensively it has both aspects covered. With the given Speed EVs, I can outspeed other Gyarados’ who use the bulky DD Smogon set exact and I can outspeed positive 120 Alakazam/Dugtrio.

    Gyarados has the ability to counter many threats this Gen is throwing, namely Scizor, Volcarona, as well as Breloom and also serves as one additional pivot: rain teams. With the rise of the Politoed, Rain teams are everywhere, so Gyarados can play to Rain’s advantage, boosting a powerful STAB Waterfall.

    Now, for the moveset. Waterfall is self-explanatory as it is Gyarados’ STAB, Earthquake provides coverage of Steels (Heatran, Ferrothorn,Metagross) and Stone Edge can cover Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, and Thundurus) however one might ask why Taunt is off as well as Bounce. To answer, I gave up Taunt as I already have a phazer in Heatran and I came up with a simple philosophy: if the opponent wants to set –up, then I too will set-up, if he wants to Swords Dance up I will do the same, whether I am on Gyarados or Lucario. As for Bounce, that was tricky, but I noticed the disadvantage it put me at: 1. It gave time for the other team to set –up, namely put up a Sub or buy Leftovers recovery time also and 2. Thunder. With Rain teams everywhere, Thunder can just OHKO Gyarados as it has 100% accuracy.



    [​IMG]
    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance

    Like Gyarados, Lucario is an overlooked threat. Lucario can also sweep teams easily, even without having Gyarados showing his face. Lucario can even take care of the problematic SkarmBliss combo, as Skarmory fears +2 Close Combat, along with many others. With a STAB Close Combat in hand, and Crunch, the FightingDark combo is scary as not many resist it, only Heracross/Toxicroak. Throw in a priority ExtremeSpeed and Lucario hits anything for neutral, even Shedinja. This in itself is a huge reason to fear the steel wolf thing, as +2 neutral attack from Lucario can potentially wipe out the whole team.

    A Swords Dance is very easy to set up on Lucario, as many Pokemon in the OU tier are scared off. If the opponent knows I have Crunch, they can be hesitant to put in Jellicent, Tyranitar fears a STAB 4x Close Combat and the ability to resist Toxic allows Lucario to set up



    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Speed / 184 Def/36 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave
    - U-turn


    Now a physical Celebi seems weird, but it works. Even without SpD EV’s Celebi provides a reasonable check to many SpA sweepers out there: Politoed, Rotom-W, Keldeo , Starmie (without Ice Beam), Landorus, Tentacruel. As mentioned, Celebi is a great asset to Gyarados, and just about any other teams. With Will – O – Wisp and/or Toxic on EVERY team, it needs to be dealt with and Celebi is there for that purpose. By eating any incoming status meant for someone else and shaking off the residual damage with Recover+ Natural Cure, Celebi can be hard to take down. With the further addition of Thunder Wave, Choice Scarfed, or Pokemon that rely heavily on Speed (Gengar, Alakazam, Infernape) are instantly taken out of the picture. Giga Drain also allows for further annoyance. With Celebi’s decent SpA combine with the fact that it’s STAB AND recovers HP adds to the annoyance. It provides checks on many bulky waters (specifically Rotom-W). U-Turn is essential to Celebi as Celebi is normally Pursuit bait (T-Tar / Scizor sup)




    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Aqua Tail
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Blast

    Seeing as how essential a Choice Scarf is, I opted for this. ScarfChomp is possibly one of the best Scarfers out there. Boasting the highest HP of any Dragons (in OU) Garchomp also has some bulk that means it won’t be taken down. It should also be noted, without SR damage and at full HP Garchomp can survive a LO Mamoswine Ice Shard at 4% (on Showdown at least). The set is pretty explanatory, if the rest of my team can eliminate all Steels, Garchomo wreaks havoc with unresisted STAB Dragon Claw pumping out scary damage. Oh wait, Steels are still up? No problem, a STAB Earthquake is also there. Heatran, say goodbye. You too Metagross, 150 neutral (300 SE, 75 NVE) is something to fear, and neither is STAB Dragon + STAB Earthquake also, not only providing high damage but only resisted by 2: Shedinja and Skamory.

    Oh, you have Shedinja or Skarmory? I have Fire Blast. Providing even more formidable coverage, nothing can truly safely wall Garchomp. Ferrothorn and Forretress are left in fear



    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    - Roar

    Heatran is quite possibly one of the best Pokemon in the game now. With Ninetales + Volcarona + Venasaur and sun teams in general, Heatran shows his face as one of the best counters to that team set-up, bar HP Ground sets. If Gyarados was my way to use Rain to my advantage, Heatran is my way to use the Sun to mine. Aside from checking those, Heatran reliabley handles the LaTwins and is basically hard to deal with for non rain teams. With it’s resistances, Heatran has many oppurtunites to set up Rocks. Normally Blissey or even Ninetales stay in to play chicken, which allows to me to use Toxic. Occasionally, Toxic reaches some sweepers as well (Garchomp) that usually pack a Swords Dance, but that can easily be eliminated as Toxic puts pressure on them as they can’t stay in for long. Roar combos with Stealth Rock nicely, as the constant phasing and residual damage help my sweepers clean house as well.



    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Thunderbolt

    Finally, what good is my Gyarados (or any other team) without a spinner to blow away rocks/spikes? Starmie is also a threat to account for and handle Keldeo if Celebi can’t as well. The decision between Leftovers or Life Orb was hard, but Life Orb eventually won it’s way to me, as the damage output without was noticeable. In addition, Starmie is not my here for full support, Celebi does that. Starmie is in my team as, a sweeper that happens to be able to support as well as it can sweep. It can also absorb Toxic or WoWs aimed for anyone else and not care because of Natural Cure.

    BoltBeam is an infamous combo that is only resisted by Magnezone, Shedinja, Rotom-H/F, none of which are hugely common. Surf then hits all of them (except Shedinja) for high neutral STAB damage.
    The debate over Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump was pretty hard, but Surf ultimately won out. Hydro Pump was rooted out almost immediately, since it’s unreliability outside of Rain gives me trouble, and since I am weather less, Hydro Pump is not useful to me. Sure it has huge power, more so in Rain, but missing statistically 20% of the time is more troublesome than it seems. Scald was the harder choice to root out. It provides 100% accuracy with a Burn chance, but the damage it provided was noticeably less than that of Surf. If I ever choose Defensive Starmie however, Scald is immediately replacing Surf.
  2. Gronkspike9348

    Gronkspike9348

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    67
    Thank you for sharing your team building strategy, it is one of the most well thought out I've recently seen. The only thing I noticed, though, is that you may run into trouble if your opponent uses a defensive (well what else) tentacruel. It would surely get in the way and stall a gyarados sweep. This is why I have a suggestion, that would lead to an uncommon moveset, but I feel would benefit your team. In my opinion, you should switch out starmie's surf for another STAB move, psychic. Though tentacruels might not be as common in today's metagame, it is definitely a threat you need to consider. Since gyarados is your main poke on this team, his waterfall should make u for the loss of surf. A rhyperior may be trickier without a special water attack, 4x super effectiveness and massive attack from gyarados would still do the trick.
  3. PokeGyarados

    PokeGyarados

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    49
    Doesn't Thunderbolt already cover Tentacruel? Thunderbolt doesnt 2HKO, but Tentacruel can't do much back and can't take repeated Tbolts from starmie. Losing a much better STAB attack in Surf isn't worth a little extra damage against Tentacruel.

    EDIT: Although I didn't rate your team, I would like to say that your team is very solid.
  4. Gronkspike9348

    Gronkspike9348

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    67
    Wow sorry about that! Didn't see thunder bolt on Starmie! Should've looked closer I guess. By the way, I am switching up that team I made and basing it off of your strategy :) it is a scizor sweep based team. I have heatran, rotom-w, and azelf supporting scizor (for pretty obvious reasons) but I'm having a hard time deciding on my last two members. You're clearly more experienced at this than me, so could you message me with any suggestions? Maybe we can set up a battle once our teams our finished :)
  5. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene +Dread Arceus: the edgier the name, the higher the crit rate
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,216
    Hey. This is an excellent team, but I think that a few changes could make it much better. For instance, under the rain, Specs Keldeo can severely weaken or even kill a team member each time it switches in since your sturdiest special wall, Heatran, is weak to both of Keldeo's STABs and your best resists, Celebi and Gyarados, don't have significant Special Defense investment. To stop this, I'd encourage you to use an EV spread of 252 HP / 232 SpD / 24 Spe with a Calm nature over your current EV spread and nature and Baton Pass over U-turn on your Celebi. The first change gives your Celebi the ability to avoid the 2HKO from a Specs-boosted Hydro Pump, Icy Wind, and / or a super-effective Hidden Power from Keldeo, something your team will find extremely helpful. This change also assures your team that many specially-based threats like Sheer Force RP Landorus or Agility Thundurus-T won't 6-0 you right off the bat. Baton Pass over Pursuit allows Celebi to escape the clutches of Pursuit without taking damage. This can lead to some interesting scenarios where you can use Lucario's Justified to get an Attack boost off a choice-locked Scizor or Tyranitar trying to Pursuit your Celebi.

    Now, for a few nitpicks. First off, for Garchomp, I'd recommend running Outrage over Aqua Tail, which doesn't seem to do much, considering how you already have Starmie and Gyarados for powerful Water-type coverage. Outrage gives Garchomp a powerful tool for cleaning up when Dragon Claw's power just won't cut it, and having both Dragon Claw and Outrage gives you the option of having power and consistency. A summarized list of changes can be found below.

    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG]
      • 252 HP / 184 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe Impish ====> 252 HP / 232 SpD / 24 Spe Calm
      • U-turn ====> Baton Pass
    • [​IMG]
      • Aqua Tail ====> Outrage

    Hope this helps. Good luck, and Luvdisc'd.

    EDIT: By the way, it's Billy, not Billie.
  6. Alexander.

    Alexander.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    Hello there,

    First of all, I'd go with TNT's suggestions because they are both very good, Specially Defensive Celebi can help you a lot against Keldeo, Thundurus-T and Rock Polish Landorus and Baton Pass is useful too because, as TNT already said, it allows to avoid Scizor and Tyranitar's Pursuit, which are very common with both Keldeo and Rock Polish Landorus nowadays. Use Outrage instead of Dragon Claw is a good suggestion too, because Outrage has more fire power than Dragon Claw and that's useful in many chances to clean up more easily, Garchomp doesn't need a lot Aqua Tail because, as TNT already said again, you have Gyarados and Starmie which have strong Water-type attacks. You should also try Bullet Punch replacing Crunch on Lucario because it's useful against Gengar, Terrakion and Choice Scarf Tyranitar which can revenge-kill very easily your current Lucario; Crunch is a good move too to handle Jellicent, Reuniclus, and Slowbro but since they don't seem a problem for your team and since Terrakion is very common in the current BW OU metagame, probably Bullet Punch is the best option for Lucario to sweep opponent's team more easily.

    As last thing, I suggest you to use only 248 EVs on HP on Heatran to take less damages from Stealth Rock and Spikes if you can't spin them with Starmie for some reason, this is just a nitpick but this change can help you in some battle, however, move the 4 EVs which before were on HP to Speed.

    Good luck and Luvdisc'd.
  7. Himper

    Himper

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    Thanks for all the love everyone! So far I'm going to have to agree to most changes suggested, they all seem good. I'm going Bullet punch > Crunch on Lucario and SpD Celebi. On Garchomp, Aqua Tail was useless, however I have to test between Outrage and Crunch as the spot to choose. Both have merits and downfalls, Crunch on Garchomp has seen usage for me, but ill have to test.

    I'm glad I posted this because I did not know Pursuit goes through U Turn. I will make that change immediately and edit OP later when I get to my laptop, editing and posting is a hassle on iPhone!
  8. Lan119

    Lan119

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Hey, I really think that this is very good team, but I think that there are a few minor changes that really could make this team excellent. First off, I agree with the other raters that Celebi should have Baton Pass and be specially defensive. I that the benefits of those changes out way the marginal gain on some fighting types like Terrakion, which you don't really have issues with because it is a real pain for it to set up, and it loses no matter it won't sweep you. I also think that if you want to make a a minor change on Lucario, you have to run Bullet Punch because of your Gengar issues.

    However, instead of sounding like a broken record, I think you have pretty big issues beating stall. Yeah, Starmie has Rapid Spin, but you run a Life Orb set with no recovery and stall is going to wear it down and then set up hazards. Lucario can't really break down stall because stall often runs stuff like Landorus-T, or a bulky revenger which will beat Lucario. Your other sweepers don't carry the fire power to get past stall teams. I think that changing Gyarados to the bulky Taunt DD set would really help you beat stuff like sand stall and still help you clean up offensive teams late game. I also think that intimidate and the extra bulk will help in some situations late game. Then, I think you change Starmie to a bulky set with Recover and Scald.

    Another idea that I had was change Starmie to Scarf Set with Rapid Spin, Trick, Surf/Hydro, and Ice Beam, and change Garchomp into ChainChomp, but that is a weird idea that needs a lot of testing and edits to the team.

    Sets

    Show Hide
    Starmie @ Leftovers
    EVs 252 HP / 4 SpAtt / 252 Spe
    Scald
    Rapid Spin
    Recover
    ThunderBolt

    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs 176 HP / 128 Atk / 204 Spe
    Waterfall
    Stone Edge
    Taunt
    Dragon Dance
  9. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,653
    Cool team, your Gyarados set has a bunch of problems though. As it is, Rotom-w can wall you all day, you have no way of beating Celebi, and you're out sped by Scarf Pokemon like Latios and Terrakion even after 2 dragon dances. Even after 1 Dragon Dance Jolteon will outspeed you.

    The moveset and EV Spread I think you should use is:

    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Jolly
    252 attack, 88 hp, 168 Speed
    Dragon Dance
    Bounce
    Substitute
    Waterfall

    The substitutes won't be broken by Tentacruel or Politoed Scald, Rotom-w is beaten as you Substitute while it volt switches out to something that can't take on your Gyarados. Bounce deals with Celebi and allows you to heal 12% from leftovers so that you can keep Substituting for a long time.


    Lastly I would change U-turn on Celebi to Baton Pass and change Crunch on Lucario to Bullet Punch.
  10. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude is an official Custom Title Rater
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,378
    Hey this is a pretty cool team Gyarados is so underated!

    This team does seem pretty solid however Thunderous-T does look like a threat particularily the Agility varaint. This is because with Thunder(bolt / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice he can hit your whole team for super effective damage and can get an easy set up oppurtunity on Celebi or Garchomp locked into Earthqauke. After an Agility Thunderous-T also outspeeds your whole team. People have also mentioned your Keldeo weakness as your team will have a hard time switching into Choice Specs Keldeo.

    To help you with these two Pokemon running a Life Orb Latias>Celebi could be a good help. Its resistances are quite similar to Celebi's however Latias can actually do some damage to Thunderous-T with Draco Meteor and do damage to Keldeo with Psyshock. She also has greater special bulk to take on their assaults. In order to whether hits from these two Pokemon easier using an ev spread of 72 HP / 182 SpA / 252 Spe is good to give Latias some special bulk. The speed evs with a Timid nature allow Latias to outspeed non scarfed Keldeo, Terrakion and Thunderous-T which your team will certainly appreciate. Surf or Hidden Power Fire could be used in the last slot although I suggest Hidden Power Fire to help you take down Steel-types. Also between Starmie and Gyarados your team has a lot of Water-type coverage.

    Good luck with the team I hope I helped!

    Set
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Life Orb | Levitate
    Timid | 72 HP / 182 SpA / 252 Spe
    Draco Metoer | Recover | Psyshock | Hidden Power Fire

    TL;DR
    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    Celebi--->Latias



    ~Superpowerdude
  11. Himper

    Himper

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    OK, soI have to say thanks to everyone who has suggested something. Every suggestion has helped and I see my team doing better as well. Currently, my team is


    [​IMG]
    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Intimidate
    EV: 212 Speed / 176HP /120 Attack
    1. Waterfall
    2. Stone Edge
    3. Dragon Dance
    4. Stone Edge

    [​IMG]
    Lucario@Life Orb
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Justified
    EV: 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP
    1. Close Combat
    2. Bullet Punch
    3. Extremespeed
    4. Swords Dance


    [​IMG]
    Garchomp@Choice Scarf
    Nature: Naive
    EV: 252 Attack / 252 Speed
    Ability: Rough Skin
    1. Outrage
    2. Dragon Claw
    3. Earthquake
    4. Fire Blast
    [​IMG]
    Heatran@Leftovers
    Nature: Calm
    EV: 252 SpD / 252 Hp / 4 SpA
    Ability: Flash Fire
    1. Lava Plume
    2. Stealth Rock
    3. Roar
    4. Toxic

    [​IMG]
    Starmie@Leftovers
    Nature: Timid
    EV: 252 SpA / 252 Speed
    Ability: Natural Cure
    1. Rapid Spin
    2. Scald
    3. Thunderbolt
    4. Ice Beam

    [​IMG]
    Latias@Life Orb
    Nature: Timid
    EV: 252 Speed / 72 HP / 182 SpA
    Ability: Levitate
    1. Draco Meteor
    2. Psyshock
    3. HP Fire
    4. Recover



    No need to give shoutouts, you all know who you are and I very much appreciate it! I have not noticed Gyarados dropping like I thought he would without Earthquake, Taunt has been proving highly effective. Currently, Starmie with Leftovers seems to be fine as is, I have tried BulkyStarmie and I just felt it did not bring as much to the table and I also felt my original Life Orb sweeper Starmie died to early as well, but when I went Sweeper + Leftovers, I noticed a good balance between survivability AND damage output.

    Currently, the Latias change is definitely superior to Celebi as far as my team goes. I have not really feared any Water teams well. Currently, I don't think I am weak to one certain Pokemon, I only lost once in my last several games because the cancel button does not work on Pokemon Showdown so I ended up Swords Dancing twice for no reason and died lol. But back on topic, if there are still weaknesses I cannot see feel free to say so!


    EDIT~ I wont be updating the OP if further changes are established as well . I will keep the OP as is so future posters can see what I was originally trying plan. Any updates will be on THIS post.
  12. Trainer Au

    Trainer Au Insert custom title here

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    269
    Hey cool team, I'm a big fan of Gyarados myself, but there are two weaknesses I want to point out.

    The first one being Mamoswine. With the moves Icicle crash/ Stone Edge/ Ice Shard/ Earthquake/ Super Power in it's arsenal, it poses as a giant threat to your team, you can play around with it, but that depends on the moves it has. Gyara is a good switch but risks Stone Edge and we have to take into account that Stealth Rock may be on the field (not likely but we have to think worst-case sceneario). Like I said before it is manageable but one wrong move and you basically lose a pkmn, it also revenge kills your scarfer locked into outrage, making your team really slow.

    To solve your Mamoswine problem, I suggest using a Bronzong>Heatran (spread at the end). Bronzong stops Mamo and to help with your now weakness to sun I suggest changing Latias's spread to 112 HP/ 56 Spdef/ 244 Spe/ 96 Spatk. That spread lets her outspeed non- choice Terrakion and the like while using HP fire, it also lets her live a +2 sludge bomb from a modest Venusaur after stealth rock then KO back, take note that that is a modest venu and I feel most are Timid nowadays, but anyways, there is one more pokemon I want to address.

    Lati@s. Choiced sets will suck but it is non-choiced sets that are even scarier. Nothing on your team wants to switch into a dragon attack and then take a possible rain boosted surf, once again you can bait and switch with heatran but that may not work the second time.A specially defensive bronzong helps against both of these pokemon. I hope I helped and explained myself enough.


    Tl;dr

    Latias 112 HP/ 56 Spdef 244 Spe / 96 Spatk > Your current spread
    252 HP/ 252 Spdef/ 4 Def Sassy with SR/ Toxic /Gyro Ball/ Earthquake> Heatran


    Good Luck!
  13. Teemo

    Teemo

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    32
    Hi, I suggest maybe Dragon Pulse on Latias. Would make it more useful thoughtout the game as it can stay in longer since it won't face -2 every attack
  14. Himper

    Himper

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    @Trainer au

    1. I like the Latias spread, seem solid to me.
    2. Heatran has one key thing: Roar. When I had Bronzong I noticed how much a problem set up teams were even with Gyarados Taunt.

    @Teemo
    Maybe but I think Draco Meteor is superior. It allows me to stay in less actually because of its sheer damage it gets kills easily as quickly.
  15. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    And also, ScarfTios is hit-and-run anyway. Dragon Pulse lacks A LOT of power.
  16. Himper

    Himper

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Messages:
    14
    I guess Bump

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