1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Bisharp (BW2 Revamp) (QC 0/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by alexwolf, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    [​IMG]

    Bisharp

    [Overview]

    • Strongest priority user in OU, making it a good sweeper and revenge killer
    • Good typing that makes setting up easier
    • Good sweeping potential with SD
    • Slow and frail, thus outsped and OHKOed by most offensive Pokemon
    • Weaknesses to common attacking types
    • Cockblocked by Breloom
    • Can be difficult to set-up sometimes
    • Sucker Punch is unreliable
    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Night Slash
    move 4: Low Kick
    item: BlackGlasses / Life Orb
    ability: Defiant
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Set up and sweep
    • Sucker Punch at +2 is incredibly strong, and is very useful even when unboosted to revenge kill anything faster
    • Night Slash to hit Pokemon that want to hit you with status or phaze you such as Celebi, Hippowdon, and Jellicent
    • Low Kick deals with Ferrothorn, Heatran, Tyranitar, bla bla bla, and gets near perfect coverage with the ohter moves, only resisted by Toxicroak in OU
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Here are some calcs of a +2 BlackGlasses Sucker Punch, Night Slash, and Low Kick (everything faster than can OHKO is hit with Sucker Punch, and everything else is hit by the most effective move, while the only one that is hit with Night Slash is Hippowdon):
    - vs 4/0 Garchomp: 97.48 - 115.08%, OHKO after SR
    - vs 4/0 Keldeo and Terrakion: 56.17 - 66.35%
    - vs 252/88+ Ferrothorn: 88.63 - 104.54%, OHKO after SR + Spikes
    - vs 252/0 Jirachi: 82.67 - 97.52%, OHKO after SR + Spikes
    - vs 252/252+: 75.26 - 89.06%, 93.75% chance to OHKO after SR + Spikes
    - vs 200/244 Landorus-T (Intimidate gives +1 Atk boost due to Defiant): 96.74 - 113.82%, OHKO after SR
    - vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 45 - 53.09%, 2HKO after SR + Spikes


    • EV spread lets Bisharp outspeed RestTalk Gyara (and an excuse to outspeed speed creeping SpD Heatran and most CB Ttar) while the HP EVs give to Bisharp precious bulk to ease set-up (Hippo and Gliscor can't KO with EQ after SR for example, and Bisharp can tank random Outrages easier too).
    • BlackGlasses is the best item as it powers up the moves that Bisharp will be using the most and preserves Bisharps good physical bulk.
    • Life Orb is fine too, and lets Bisharp do some cool stuff, such as 2HKO Hippowdon at +2, OHKO any Ferrothorn, and OHKO 248 HP Scizor after SR. If using LO, go for max Atk and max Speed, as the added bulk doesn't matter with LO anyway, and you can outspeed and OHKO Adamant offensive Scizor with Low Kick, and outspeed and OHKO SpD Rotom-W and defensive Lando-T with Night Slash
    • Jolly to outspeed SpD Celebi, SpD Jirachi, Adamant Breloom, and Jolly Scizor. When faster than Breloom you can either use Sucker Punch if it goes for Mach Punch, or Low Kick if it goes for Spore, both do 75% min at +2, so they OHKO with a bit previous damage
    • Bisharp fucking loves entry hazards if can't already tell. Suicide leads that can set up both hazards are good partners, so Custap Berry Forretress, Custap Berry Skarmory, and Custap Berry Crustle are all good options.
    • Froslass + SR user can lay both hazards, and save the slot of adding another ghost to spinblock, as Froslass can already spinblock her own hazards once (set-up Spikes and get to Sash, switch out, switch in to spinblock and die). If using Froslass, Weavile is very helpful to take care of Starmie, the only Rapid Spinner than can spin even against most offensive Pokemon. Offensive LO Celebi and Fire Blast LO Garchomp are both excellent SR users to pair with Froslass, as they are hard to wall and outspeed and OHKO every relevant spinner (no i don't count Donphan) except Starmie, which Weavile can trap and kill after Froslass is sacrificed
    • Gengar or Sableye to keep hazards alive
    • Dual Screen support also make Bisharp really hard to take down and can allow it to get two SD boosts sometimes, so that the lack of entry hazards result in him getting walled by certain Pokemon
    • SD Scizor is an awesome partner. Those two Pokemon form a double SD priority combo where they weaken each other's counters. For example a +2 Bisharp lures and weakens Keldeo, offensive Heatran, defensive Hippowdon, and Specs Magnezone so that later Scizor can sweep. Heatran and Magnezone get into OHKO range of a +2 BP from Adamant Scizor after they eat a +2 Sucker Punch from Bisharp and two SR rounds (one when switching into Bisharp and one when switching into Scizor)
    • Chople Berry Terrakion is a good lure for Breloom, which is a huge roadblock for Bisharp
    • Teammates to handle Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Rotom-W are good as well, so any offensive Celebi and Rotom-W are your friends. Celebi gets extra points for being able to take on Keldeo and Breloom too
    [Other Options]

    • Leftovers
    • Iron Head
    • Support set with T-Wave, Pursuit, and Stealth Rock
    [Checks and Counters]

    • BRELOOM
    • KELDEO
    • Skarmory
    • Terrakion
    • Hippowdon
    • Gliscor
    • Conkeldurr
    • Toxicroak
    • Offensive Heatran
    • Hydreigon
    • Anything faster with WoW/Sub which means:
    • Ninetales
    • Kyurem-B
    • Rotom-W
    • Gengar
    Replays:
    Bisharp on a hazards stacking HO team with Froslass (open)
  2. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,398
    You know, you don't say what moves the calcs are for. I can infer with context but it's still a little confusing and easily remedied. (Your explaining sentence is mildly confusing, and is also longer than just saying it straight-up)


    Also, who cares if you 2hitko Hippowdon at +2? Hippowdon basically walls the hell out of everything Bisharp can do, even weird Thunder Wave sets that were theorymonned at the start of gen 5(And exist in OO here), so there's really no reason not to switch it in. Meanwhile, EQ probably KO's back, especially if you're running LO and no bulk.

    Sableye spelled wrong too. If you're going to mention it as a teammate, why not mention it as a check/counter? You even have a neat section for it too
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,696
    No

    I tested this, using the teams you and shrang gave me, and was very unhappy with the results of my testing. Nor is there anything in the logs that actually impresses me (misplays etc) so I am not approving this. Consider this a "soft" rejection as you will, although I really am considering making an official one.

    Of the 2 Bisharp teams I tested, alexwolfs one was the easiest to set up with, and under screens, it was ok. The problem was, it didn't really have anything that made me "want" it on my team, I could have easily thrown a Lucario on the team (and I really dislike putting Lucario on a team) and have done with it instead. STAB Priority is very nice, but it was heavily reliant on prediction (if you fucked up, it prolly means they boosted against you so you REALLY need to win the coin flip or next turn you're fucked) and that was what I found most annoying.

    When I tried shrangs team I had a blast, it was fun etc etc, but Bisharp had even a harder time setting up and often it would simply be relegated as death fodder, or simply acted as a deterrent against an Outrage. Sure, it was nice against say, a Mamoswine since it commonly runs 4 attacks so I could Sucker Punch in peace, but against say, a Dragonite? Well id have to predict around that one.

    As I said above, setting up really was the problem with Bisharp. Its weak to just about every common attacking move out there, and this made it a 50/50 just to GET the swords dance, let alone a kill or sweep. Does this Tyranitar have Superpower, does this Celebi have Earth Power, is this Latios going to Trick me or is it attacking etc etc? It was SUCH a coinflip whenever I used it, and I really hated that. Quite a few times it was legitimately "click a move and hope"which was far to risky to enjoy. On the occasion when I actually got a Swords Dance up, turns out that would have a Hippowdon, a Rotom-W with WoW, a Jellicent with a bit of speed, a Scarf Keldeo, a Genger, priority etc etc, and it never really made an impact.

    To sum it up, Bisharp really was inconsistent when I used it and personally that's the problem. If you have amazing prediction, it honestly wouldn't let you down but there were far too many 50/50s involved in using it for my liking. It was good under screens, sure, but so is like, fucking Zangoose or something, I needed something more, perhapes something I could actually rely on and Bisharp didn't really deliver.
  4. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,229
    Actually, from my experience, Hippowdon can't OHKO Bisharp in return, so I can't see how "getting 2HKOed" = "walling the hell out of Bisharp". Either you Whirlwind it it out and then getting forced out, or you spam Slack Off until you get owned by a crit (which Night Slash has a higher than normal chance of delivering.
  5. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    627
    I'm just curious what "Strongest priority user in OU" means, because that's not true. Bisharp is not an OU Pokemon, so first off the whole "in OU" part is wrong. Second, Absol has the strongest priority move in the game with its 130 base Attack STAB Sucker Punch, while Bisharp "only" has 125 base Attack. That makes the whole "strongest priority user" false as well. If you meant that between Absol and Bisharp - the first and second strongest priority-users in the game - that the latter is more OU viable somehow, that first bullet needs rewording to make it mean that.
  6. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,398
    Well, seeing as this is specifically a no bulk variant with LO, i'm willing to bet it can. (Well, technically, he says that you should use Life Orb with a max attack spread, but says that LO is cool first. So I might be wrong about that one, I guess if you use LO and the bulk, you might have a point there.)

    And seth, when people say in OU, they usually mean "OU viable"
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Defensive Hippo is a bit troubling, but with SR + Spikes it can be beaten, or at least weakened so that another teammate can sweep (Terrakion or SD Scizor). Also EQ from Hippo doesn't OHKO the main spread even after SR.

    Also Seth Vilo see what tehy said. I meant strongest viable priority user in OU.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    I totally get your concerns ginga, as Bisharp indeed is a bit inconsistent. However, what it has over Lucario is more bulk and a hell of a lot stronger priority, allowing him to get past Pokemon such as offensive Celebi, Garchomp, Jirachi, Gengar (situational but still), Gyarados, Kyurem-B, and Tentacruel. His priority is also strong enough initially to pick off many offensive Pokemon with 60-70% life, something that Lucario can't do.

    And generally i have found Bisharp useful in priority stacking teams, because as i said again, dual SD priority combo is really good and prevents almost every offensive Pokemon from sweeping you, giving you the option to focus more on offensive synergy and less on defensive synergy. Sometimes Bisharp didn't even need to setup, as it could just pick off a weakened Pokemon late-game, and damage another one, which is good enough imo. Finally, the fact that it can reliably set-up on choiced Outrages is a big pro of Bisharp, even more when you consider that he is resistant to SR and doesn't usually take LO damage, making it easy to tank even two Outrages (switch-in and then use SD), and then try to sweep with even 10-20% life left late-game. If the proper preperations have been made, Bisharp will be in a position to sweep, so everything will come down to prediction, and at best you will sweep, while at worst you will at least take down/weaken a Pokemon, which will most likely be a check to SD Scizor too.

    Finally, Bisharp's Sucker Punch is the strongest priority in OU. I can't stress this enough, as it is the main selling point of Bisharp. Here are some calcs to show you that Bisharp doesn't even need an SD boost to be useful against offensive teams:


    • 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 223-264 (74.58 - 88.29%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 183-216 (57.36 - 67.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 202-238 (61.02 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 195-231 (64.56 - 76.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 175-207 (48.88 - 57.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Even the bulkiest offensive Pokemon in OU, Garchomp, loses half its life from Sucker Punch, which means that if a sweeper not resistant to Sucker Punch and without Sub manages to set-up it will almost always die after SR, the hit he took to set-up, and Sucker Punch. The only offensive Pokemon with sweeping potential Pokemon that Bisharp can't revenge kill are Keldeo, Tyranitar, Breloom, Scizor, and Toxicroak, which is only a handful of Pokemon. Also notice how most of those Pokemon are taken care by a offensive Celebi partnership.

    So, all in all, Bisharp is not the best sweeper out there, and it's not even a great one, it is just mediocre. It sometimes manages to kill 1-2 Pokemon, weaken only 1 Pokemon, or rarely sweep teams, IF it sets up, which sometimes is not easy at all. Bisharp's strength comes from its ability to revenge kill almost every offensive Pokemon with sweeping potential in OU, after the sweeper in question take even the weakest hits. This means that Bisharp + another strong priority user or Bisharp + something that handles the offensive Pokemon that Bisharp can't revenge kill create a two Pokemon combo capable of revenge killing almost everyh relevant sweeper in OU. Bisharp + Scizor, Bisharp + Celebi, and Bisharp + Toxicroak are all such combos that can work in practice. (i haven't tried Bisharp + SD Toxicroak but in theory it seems good, as Toxicroak handles Keldeo, Tyranitar, Breloom, and Tyranitar really well).
  9. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,856
    i tested this just like ginga did and it's vomit-inducingly bad. first, with keldeo and terrakion being 2 of the 4 most popular pokemon in ou, dark priority isn't the best thing to be packing, and when your only other stab type is steel...i mean that's about as bad as poison and fire. second, the fighting weakness is an absolute killer. fighting is the single most common offensive type in the ou tier and so far the only pokemon that has ever gotten away with it is tyranitar (for obvious reasons). and, finally, unlike other 4x fighting weak stuff like weavile that might stand a chance in ou, bisharp doesn't even have decent speed or defenses to make a case for itself. 65 hp, 70 sdef, 70 speed. that's pathetic by anyone's standards. even extremely weak stuff like tentacruel's rain-boosted scald 2hkos bisharp. overall, bisharp is too defensively frail and too offensively underwhelming to compete in the ou tier.

    qc rejection (1/idk)
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,338
    Lavos Spawn i don't agree with most of your reasoning as to why Bisharp is not viable (except for the big Breloom and Keldeo weakness) but it's pointless to argue about it so point taken. Is this an official rejection or no (you had ''idk'' after the rejection that's why i am asking)?
  11. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,856
    this might sound like i'm being rude, and that's not my intention, but frankly i don't care whether or not you agree with my reasoning because i went out there and actually tested bisharp for several hours and i can tell you with absolute certainty that it is NOT worthy of an ou analysis. bisharp was consistently the worst member of any team i tried to put it on, it stacks up badly against almost every single common pokemon in the ou tier and it's greatly outclassed by other priority users such as scizor, breloom, and lucario, all of which do their jobs better than bisharp does. after all, dark/steel typing isn't a recipe for success in bw2 ou...

    i wasn't aware that unofficial rejections existed, you can see this as official and i think the majority of qc is going to understand why i'm rejecting bisharp if they go test it for themselves.
  12. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,841
    This is one of the few guys I've actually been using, and he's actually done a pretty decent job for me. He's extremely prediction-reliant, but if you can predict right, the payoffs are awesome. I especially love the mind games Bisharp allows you to play with your opponent, because I find that one overlooked aspect is that Bisharp puts a ton of pressure on your opponent. If they predict wrong, they often start to choke. His Sucker Punches hit even harder than Arceus's ExtremeSpeed (obviously ExtremeSpeed is a lot safer, but yeah), which is a plus. Defiant is pretty useful for stuff like Landorus-T and other fellow Intimidate users. Not to mention you have a 20% chance of pretty much counter-sweeping the opponent if you switch into a well-timed Crunch or Shadow Ball (get a defense lowered, but get +2 Attack in return).

    However, in my testing, I found that pairing up Bisharp with Gothitelle is a very good idea. Having something that can reliably get rid of half the counters on your list makes using Bisharp a lot easier. I found Gothitelle able to trap guys like Terrakion, Breloom, Keldeo, Skarmory, and Conkeldurr very well with just Psyshock (or Psychic) and Thunderbolt alone. Her good bulk really helps out here, especially when it comes to take stuff like a resisted Close Combat from Terrakion, and hits from Scarf Keldeo. You still have a free spot for Trick and a Hidden Power of your choice to take out even more counters. With Trick, you can ruin any of the things trying to wall him, and you can turn Toxicroak into setup bait when it tries to Sucker Punch you. HP Ice can ruin Gliscor's day if you want that too.

    Basically, if you want to get the most out of Bisharp, I'd use a Gothitelle on the team along with it, because it gets rid of a huge amount of Bisharp's counters.
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,856
    15:54 Lavos opinions on bisharp
    15:55 PKGaming I was going to reject it
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins i dont like it
    15:55 PKGaming didn't we reject it on IRC?!?
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins shrang has a boner for it
    15:55 Lavos i dunno what happened on irc
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins but i have never liked it in ou
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins we rejected it iirc pk
    15:55 Lavos but i logged on, saw it
    15:55 Lavos and made a rejection post
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins but shrang wanted to test
    15:55 SevenDeadlySins and i think alexwolf did too?
    15:56 Lavos SDS, i tested
    15:56 Lavos and it sucks monkey cock
    15:56 Lavos least valuable player every single time
    15:56 SevenDeadlySins yup
    15:56 Lavos alright well
    15:56 Lavos wanna reject it w/me
    15:56 Lavos i already made my post
    15:56 SevenDeadlySins reject it then
    15:56 SevenDeadlySins PKGaming: if you want to post
    15:56 SevenDeadlySins and quote me on irc

    ok making it officially official, QC Rejection (1/3) because it was already rejected as a c&c collective on irc
  14. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,147
    Didn't we collectively reject this on IRC??

    Bisharp is extraordinarily bad in practice. It seems appealing on paper, but being vulnerable to nearly every single "top tier threat" in OU is too much of a flaw to work with. The amount of effort someone has to put into making it decent is frankly way too much imo (with that much effort you can make "anything" OU worthy).

    QC Rejection 2/3

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)