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Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.
Beats my record of 14.
I understand how "hax" is frustrating, but 50% chance(confusion) is hardly anything to moan about. Especially considering you 100% win with good ivs. I mean its bordering on presumpuous. Skitz0pheric is also right; the amount of available information (and user help) is easily enough to sail you past 100, considering you put effort into theorymoning, breeding/ rnging and then focusing on playing optimally.
And it shows; the most active users in this thread (and/or the ones who post well) are normally the users near the top of the rankings.
Everyone likes to shift the blame but more often than not its the user, not hax or the ai, that is the cause of the end of a streak. The subway's meant to be a challenge, so you cant just go in with 3 random pokemon with the wrong natures. Shell smash + aqua jet is a very odd combination. Azumaril is overall better at aqua jet spam (it doesnt require set up to hit hard), so you should probably review using a +2speed move and a priority move. Carra would also benefit more in being #2 or #3, so it can take advantage of its typing rather than being a liability due to its numerable weaknesses. Hydreigon would probably be a better lead overall.
Today I played 0 subway battles, I was and still am breeding a weak armor omastar, egg moves are muddy water/wring out/water pulse. I´m kind of angry that weak armor (hidden ability) and earth power (HGSS tutor) are incompatible, that sucks (weak armor means it outspeeds everything in the subway after a shell smash).
I´m not sure if/how I´ll use that one after breeding it...except for using it as a father (rock blast) for crazy cloyster lol...because I really really want to use a 125 base power ice attack coming from a 322 attack stat, that´s 4% stronger than a double Sword Dance Ice Punch from Jolly Weavile...I´m not even sure if Rock Blast is worth the moveslot despite the acc increase from 80 to 90%...probably Shell Smash, Icicle Spear, Explosion, something (Razor Shell?) with Focus Sash...also +2 explosion doing 84-99% dmg to Slowbro 1 & 3 doesn´t help either (used bro as example as it was the first thing that came to my mind that resists icicle spear badly).
If you´re wondering why I´m posting anyway, I don´t know. But for those of you using Latios in the subway, here´s some info that could be useful. Calculated which super effective moves have a shot at OHKOing Latios.
SUBWAY SUCKER PUNCHERS LIST (in order from highest to lowest dmg output):
194 atk Honchkrow 4 (LO)
194 atk Honchkrow 2 (BlackGlasses)
159 atk Skuntank 3 (LO)
200 atk Absol 2
194 atk Bisharp 4
182 atk Absol 3
177 atk Bisharp 3
173 atk Toxicroak 1 (Dark Gem)
----- the above pokémon will always (100% chance) OHKO 156HP/100def Latios
167 atk Shiftry 4 (87,5% OHKO)
158 atk Spiritomb 2 (56,25% OHKO)
157 atk Zoroark 3 (56,25% OHKO)
156 atk Houndoom 1 (50% OHKO)
----- the Pokémon below can´t OHKO 156HP/100def Latios (without a CH)
173 atk Toxicroak 4
112 atk Spiritomb 4
101 atk Spiritomb 1
147 atk Kangaskhan 23
117 atk Gengar 2
Note that for the purpose of SE hits (even for neutral STAB attacks), 155 HP or 156 HP are the same, so it´s actually wiser to invest the 1 remaining point into def or sD.
The reason is that before type modifiers apply in the dmg formula, the damage has to be 52 (STAB SE) or 104 (STAB neutral).
51 x 1,5 x 2 = 152
52 x 1,5 x 2 = 156
103 x 1,5 = 154
104 x 1,5 = 156
For example the 1 point in defense would change Zoroark´s OHKO chance from 56,25% to 50%.
In doubles, when using an intimidater as partner for Latios, only the first two Pokémon, Honchkrow 2 & 4 have a shot at OHKOing Latios, unless you face a Bisharp that gets an attack boost from Defiant.
Only the 172 spA LO Honchkrow 3 will always OHKO 155HP/130sD Latios.
None of the following will OHKO Latios with Dark Pulse:
Houndoom 4, Heatran 1, Honchkrow 1, Lucario 1, Mandibuzz 23, Shiftry 3, Thundurus 2, Tornadus 13, Toxicroak 3, Zoroark 4
216 spA Chandelure 3 has a 87,5% chance to OHKO Latios with Shadow Ball
161 spA Spell Tag Cofagrigus 2 has a 25% chance to OHKO Latios with Shadow Ball
Porygon-Z 1 & 4 have a shot at OHKOing Latios in doubles, if they get a Download boost from Latios´ partner.
None of the following will OHKO Latios with Shadow Ball:
Blissey 2, Cofagrigus 3, Cresselia 1, Crobat 2, Exploud 4, Drifblim 34, Froslass 34, Gardevoir 4, Gengar 134, Glaceon 24, Espeon 34, Honchkrow 3, Houndoom 3, Chandelure 4, Lucario 4, Jolteon 3, Musharna 234, Mandibuzz 2,
Medicham 2, Porygon2 4, Metagross 2, Raikou 123, Mismagius 123, Reuniclus 3, Slowking 3 (specs), Suicune 2, Toxicroak 3, Weezing 3, Yanmega 4, Zoroark 2, Vaporeon 14
Volcarona 2 has a 68,75% chance to OHKO Latios with Bug Buzz. Volcarona 34 have no spA EVs and thus are unable to OHKO Latios.
Every Yanmega set has a 68,75% chance to OHKO Latios with Bug Buzz. Note that set 134 have Detect, which is really bad with Speed Boost.
Accelgor 2 has a 6,25% chance to OHKO Latios with Bug Buzz (only with max damage), all other Accelgor won´t OHKO Latios.
It´s obviously incomplete, missing (from top of my head) blizzard, ice beam, DM, dragon pulse, outrage, dual chop, dragon claw, ice punch, icicle crash, bug bite, scissor, megahorn, crunch, night slash, shadow punch...owww that´s quite a lot :(
the initial idea was to check sucker punch threats as you have to switch when facing those
Even incomplete, your summary is still very useful, especially since once I acquire a good latios, I'd like to try one on my team.
Were you to expand your research, however, it might be simpler to narrow the focus not merely to things that OHKO, but things that both outspeed (or speed tie) and OHKO. Those are the biggest threats, since many slower things that could otherwise OHKO latios can be OHKOed by latios instead. You rightly examined sucker punch as public enemy number one, but naturally faster OHKO threats are similarly worrisome.
Also, what damage calculator do you use? Running lots of theorymon calculations can take a long time, and I've yet to find a calculator on which I can run a series of calculations for level 50 subway sets as quickly as I would like. Many thanks!
I dunno man, it's been mentioned already but you're going to have to show us instances of when the AI switches randomly because none of us see that either. And if you really want to compare, think about it: I am like 3,000-2 with Drapion in Gen 4, with the Acu nerf. Drapion necessarily got better in Gen 5 with no nerf. So did the competition, which I don't think anyone will dispute. The issue is that it's harder to get your poke set up on a Trick team, not that Drapion is worse than in Gen IV.
Very glad to see someone (as thoughtful as you) try out a team I posted, especially cause I haven't proven I've used it yet besides typing a bunch of words about it. So I'll obviously commiserate with you on the team with the experience I have with it so far.
As predicted, turns out Suicune doesn't like CHes too much! Even when you account for them it can suck, like facing a lead Escavlier and taking a CH Megahorn on the switch, or taking CH Shadow Balls from Gengar and Froslass or SpD drops. I am willing to accept to some extent that my nearly 200-battle unbeaten streak with this team was beginners' luck, but something also must be said for CHes you literally predict from the pokes that threaten the rest of your team the most.
Basically if Gengar4 (Lum, TB/SB/SB/DB) gets a CH or a SpD drop on a Suicune switch you're scrambling from there. It's most annoying from Psychic trainers since two Gengar have Sash but not the Lum one. That said, Gengar can't even OHKO Latios with Timid Shadow Ball (82-97%), but LO recoil and not one but TWO coin flips in Sash possibility and speed tie make it a lame match-up. I mean I was surprised to see that Latios took Shadow Ball like a champ there, but the Subway speed fetish (all Gengar and ¾ Froslass/Espeon) and the team's slight issue with Ghosts make for some annoying problems.
I don't know how you lose to Golurk but I know its EQ is no fun so I will only CM once if it's a lead,
I lost at battle 273 this weekend, to something I regret in hindsight but am not sure I'd play differently unless I were paranoid or past battle 300 (at which point I'd be using Team Drapula II but whatever). Wifi at work (lol) won't let me upload it so take my word for it until I give enough of a crap to upload it. Here's how it went:
Worker Quinn sent out Hippowdon
#1: Latios switches to Suicune/Curse
#2: Cune Scald, Hippo to ~65%/Curse
#3: Cune Scald, Hippo to ~30%/EQ, Cune at 114/207
#4: Cune Scald, dead Hippo/go Tyranitar
#5: Tyra DD/Scald, ~65% Tyra
#6: Tyra SE, miss/Icy Wind, Tyra 42%
#7: DD/Icy Wind, Tyra 36%
#8: Tyra SE, Cune dead/go Terrakion
#9: Terrakion CC, Chople, Tyra dead/go Dugtrio
#10: Duggy Dig/Terry CC, miss
#11: Dig hits, Terry, dead go Latios
#12: Duggy Sub/IB, Sub breaks
#13: Duggy Toxic, hits/IB, evaded, Latios at 114/156
#14: Duggy Sub/IB, Sub breaks, Latios at 72/156
#15: Duggy Sub/IB, Sub breaks, Latios at 21/156
#16: Duggy Sub/IB, Sub breaks, Latios faints
Turn #1: I don't like keeping Latios in on Hippo, though this may change in the future. It wouldn't really have helped here even if I had IBed on turn 1 knowing Hippo was going to Curse, because Latios isn't exactly staying in on second poke Tyra at 67.5% HP.
Against Hippo: CM is a bad idea, and not just because Hippo can CH with EQ. As you can see, I was still forced to Icy Wind due to the threat of DD Tyranitar, and the damage output of Icy Wind on uber sand tar would not have been much more impressive (or to the point of having Icy Wind).
Turn #6: Tyra +1 SE only does 87-103HP damage, Cune had 114. (Interestingly, if I had actually decided to stay in with Latios to IB twice, and Tyra had DDed on the switch to Suicune and CHed with Stone Edge, Cune would have survived with 1HP and been able to Icy Wind before dying to sand, and CC does 107% min through Chople.) This means it would have been able to DD and SE twice on any Suicune that did not have Icy Wind (unboosted Surf does 37-45%), which would 100% have ended that battle given it outspeeds and OHKOs Terrakion and Latios after a DD. This is important to note: without Icy Wind, there's almost no chance I win this battle outside of a Crocune (Surf/CM/Rest/Sleep Talk) that Calm Minds on Turn 2, Scalds, and Rest and gets lucky. *This* is why I swear by Icy Wind, as it certainly is not the reason I lost.
Turn #9: Doing anything but CC hardly occurred to me, as I was confident 100% Latios had it wrapped up. I wasn't look at a list but I vaguely remembered that two Duggy had CB, so this explains why I took it lightly. As it stands, if I had used Substitute, I would not have lost, since Wide Lens preempts BP's bullshit. I assumed Duggy had EQ, which half do, but not this one:
Dugtrio | Jolly | BrightPowder | Toxic | Dig | Substitute | Sandstorm | Atk/Spd
Turn #10: Still pretty confident, I actually use my head and attempt a switch just to fuck with Duggy for making me wait instead of killing me instantly. Arena Trap, of course: if it had not been, there is almost no chance Duggy wins since it would have to BP AND Sand Veil Wide Lens CC four times or throw a random Toxic in there on Terra and Latios and effect a lot more misses (and if CC hadn't lowered defenses, Terra had a slim chance of surviving Dig).
Turn #13: unlucky 13 (the game calls it turn #14 but it considers pokes being send out turn 1 and the initial actual move turn 2 so). Seems kind of "we wanted to end your streak" given the timing (not trying it in turn #12). it's pretty lol that both LO and Sand were against me here.
So yeah I guess I should have Subbed even though I didn't know the set? Maybe it uses Sub itself and is able to stall because *I* have to keep Subbing every time it breaks my Sub because I'd end up in the same situation as I did even if it would have less Subs to stall with, but whatever. Thanks for reminding me why Drapion is the best, videogame.
Anyway, Purgatory, three ZN flinches in a row is a bit much from Metagross, "but" that's only a net of 54% damage on average. Obviously you were lower on HP than you wanted to be but even here Suicune is basically able to stall it out of all its ZH PP and allow Latios to do a ton with TB. And if Meta even thinks about using Agility it will take enough from even unboosted Scald to put it in Latios's LO TB KO range. Basically I'm trying to convince "us" that just misplaying thing is the reason behind 99% of losses with this team, even if it's some convoluted hindsight that shows that x move was a misplay.
I´ll add the other SE attacks tomorrow or when I find the time and won´t be busy playing the subway...
Well, I always do the calcs myself, with a pocket calculator or the basic windows calculator, I´m probably a special case because of my really extensive experience with
The complete damage formula for Diamond and Pearl, which I´m the co-author of and pretty much all simulators and I don´t know what else work with that one...so with the knowledge and experience, when simplified, the formula is just 3 numbers multiplied (atk/spA x move base power x 0,44) divided by one number (def/sD), add +2 and apply STAB/type effectiveness (x1,5 x2 /2)...long story short I´ve been doing Pokémon damage calcs for many years now for my all the theorymon and they´re kind of blink of an eye fast...reverse calcs are easy for me as well.
In this case, it´s actually easier to just reverse calc the min. atk/spA needed to have a shot at OHKO and then ctrl+f the particular attack...for example dark pulse/shadow ball
156 / 3) -2) x 130 / 0,44 / 80 = 184,65908
so 185 is the min spA needed to have a shot at OHKOing Latios with maximum damage that is, everything above that number has a higher probability to OHKO...
Now I remember Jump posting sometime ago that he had a photographic memory of some sort and he knows all the base stats of Pokémon...I don´t remember as much info, but I work with actual max neutral lv.100 stats, they´re easier to remember for me (my first competitive gen was GSC) and getting lv.50 stats from those is a very quick calc as well...
basically it´s ((stat -5) / 2) +5))) for atk->spe and (stat -110) / 2) + 60)) for HP and variations of the calc depending on EV spreads...
example: I remember zap neutral lv.100 spA/speed to be 349/299, ((349 -5) / 2) +5))) = 177 spA neutral at lv.50, speed is 152...
but after all these tower/frontier years with lv.50 you´re bound to remember things like "200 speed" and lv.50 stats of particular pokémon you work with a lot...
As for the "what outspeeds and OHKOs Latios list", it´s a very short list, as latios is only slower than 68/780 pokémon = 8,717%, tied with 19/780 pokémon = 2,435% and faster than 693/780 pokémon = 88,846%.
Just from a glimpse at the speed tiers (I have added much more info into the list that I´ve saved for theorymon purposes)...the faster OHKO threats are scarfchomp (outrage), scarflandorus (outrage), scarfpinsir (scissor), CBaero (crunch), accelgor 2 (buzz 1/16), weavile (ice punch, night slash) & scarframpardos (head smash)...but you always have to be vary of all the Pokémon that outspeed, as they may 2HKO and Latios too, then there´s flinches etc.
EDIT: Oh didn´t see the post above when I was typing up mine. Congrats on the second highest subway streak, but I admit I´m actually surprised you got that far with that team. Don´t take it offensively, but I just have bad exp. with both CMcune and wide lens terrakion :/ and used latios more than anyone else around here. So that´s an even bigger achievment in my book than with something like drapion.
Shit now I have to start another singles streak in the near future because your next attempt will surely beat my 337...thanks a lot for that lol, but first I´ll revise the EV spread on registeel, there´s obviously changes in handling attacks with its +6/+6 sub since last gen
I agree with you on your conclusion, Jumpman, and I did actually go for another run with the team, but with Specs on Latios rather than LO. I don't know if it's the better choice (pun intended), but it seems to fit me more, even though it has forced me to switch a couple of times. The amount of pokemon that I can safely OHKO increases, obviously, with the Specs, and flattening my opponent with blunt, dumb force right out of the gates is how I prefer to play this game, especially against the AI.
In any case, I beat the boss (finally!) and went on to battle 77 before I lost due to yet more misplays. I think I will keep the Specs for the time being though.
I've found that Magnezone is a handful, especially when he comes first. He resists every attack on Latios' set, two of them have Twave, and Flash Cannon is also a move I don't want to send in Terrakion on. Sturdy also means that if I mispredict and just CC for the KO, it's likely that Terrakion will either be KO'd or crippled.
The Sash Tyranitar (903) caught me by surprise once, but other than that the team has been handling threats really well. The Twave/Taunt Froslass sucks, but Cune can out-stall it.
I was sceptical to Icy Wind when I was looking over the team, but after testing it I must admit that it has been very helpful. A couple of times I've gotten out of tough spots by using it once or twice on fast sweepers (Weavile, for example, who has also been a crit machine), so either other team mate can come in on either a resisted attack or through a sac and then KO. The low power is significant, and the accuracy almost gave me the fits once, but Cune was equally good at dodging Stone Edges, so it worked out in the end.
In short, I have faith in the team, I just need to stop assing around while playing, forget about watching movies while spamming Dragon Pulses and focus on the DS, even in battles before 49. It's not all thorns, however, I still haven't missed even once with Rock Slide (knock on wood).
You know, I had no idea that Houndoom or Zoroark had sucker punch. I haven't been using the moveset list at all and must've avoided the those sets completely or gotten lucky. Odd. Haven't seen Yanmega use detect yet either, I think it tries to go for the OHKO against Latios and I kill it first. Zoroark 3 may elect for Night Slash over Sucker Punch as well.
Thank you for the list!
On the topic of random switches and strange things, I have seen the scarfed extrasensory Entei switch out vs hydra+latios. I have also seen Fling from Golurk fail on multiple occasions.
Oh, the list is missing fling. I always switch vs Sucker Punchers now, so Latios mostly gets OHKOd by Fling when I forget to switch. I need to start using the list now that you complied it.
Mmm, those Klutz-Golurks trying to Fling always put a smile on my face. =)
I've seen several Yanmegas, both with and without Speed Boost, use Detect against Latios.
I´ve experienced Yanmega not only Detecting turn 1 but OHKOing Latios turn 2 :p
Houndoom and Zoro are somehow always KOed before they can do anything (hi mach punch), I´ve actually had a lot of Zoro encounters but somehow they never do anything but protect and faint, I think they attacked me maybe 1-2 times in the 2000+ battles. It sucks to switch out Latios and then Hydra getting OHKOd by toxicroak cross chop on the switch, but that happened like twice.
Here´s another batch of "Latios meets the Subway": Fling, Outrage, Draco Meteor, Blizzard and Ice Beam.
88 atk STAB iron ball fling to have a shot at OHKO
133 atk non-STAB iron ball fling to have a shot at OHKO
167 atk Shiftry 1
154 atk Tyranitar 1
211 atk Conkeldurr 24
193 atk Golurk 4
178 atk Golem 4
167 atk Dusknoir 2
---- the Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Fling
150 atk Seismitoad 2 (68,75% OHKO chance)
145 atk Marowak 2 (50% OHKO chance)
--- the two Pokémon above have a good chance to OHKO Latios with Fling, the Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with Fling.
105 atk Quagsire 2
King´s Rock: Aggron 2, Ambipom 14, Infernape 1, Mienshao 2
Razor Fang: Gliscor 1, Miltank 2, Weavile 1
Toxic Orb: Lopunny 1
Dragonite 3 (CB), Druddigon (4), Flygon 4, Garchomp 3 (Scarf), Kingdra 1, Landorus 2 (Scarf), Haxorus 23 (Persim/CB), Latios 4 (LO), Marowak 4 (Club), Salamence 4
There´s 11 Outrage users in the Subway, all of them will always OHKO Latios. Note that SpecsLatios will always OHKO all the dragons with Dragon Pulse, also Marowak 4 (and set 3, but never set 1 & 2, set 2 wak is the flinger).
Latios will only OHKO Landorus with absolutely maximum damage on Dragon Pulse. Latios outspeeds 9 of them, not scarfLando scarfChomp.
min 106 spA STAB DM to OHKO Latios
Flygon 3, Kingdra 4, Latias 234, Latios 234 and Hydreigon 3 will all OHKO Latios with DM, but only Lati@s 23 speed tie with it.
117spA Salamence 3 has a 56,25% chance to OHKO Latios with DM, but its Dragon Rush is a sure OHKO.
- in singles
188 spA non-STAB Blizzard has a shot at OHKOing Latios. Everything above that raises the OHKO %.
222 spA non-STAB Blizzard will always OHKO Latios.
124 spA STAB Blizzard has a shot at OHKOing Latios. Everything above that raises the OHKO %.
148 spA STAB Blizzard will always OHKO Latios.
- in doubles
250 spA non-STAB Blizzard has a shot at OHKOing Latios. Everything above that raises the OHKO %.
165 spA STAB Blizzard has a shot at OHKOing Latios. Everything above that raises the OHKO %.
197 spA STAB Blizzard will always OHKO Latios in doubles.
161 spA Articuno 4 (Ice Gem)
183 spA Jynx 3 (Expert Belt)
200 spA Glaceon 134
--------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios even in doubles.
178 spA Vanilluxe 3 (50% OHKO in doubles)
167 spA Jynx 4 (6,25% OHKO chance in doubles)
-------- The Pokémon below will never OHKO Latios in doubles.
161 spA Articuno 1
161 spA Walrein 3
134 spA Beartic 2 (NeverMeltIce)
158 spA Abomasnow 34 - note that unless aboma rolls absolutely max damage in doubles, even the hail damage won´t KO latios end of turn1
--------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios in singles.
147 spA Articuno 3 (93,75% OHKO chance)
147 spA Cryogonal 34 ( (93,75% OHKO chance)
133 spA Abomasnow 2 (50% OHKO chance)
132 spA Froslass 34 (37,5% OHKO chance)
--------- The Pokémon above have a shot at OHKOing Latios in singles. The Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with Blizzard in singles.
108 spA Regice 4
90 spA Mamoswine 2
178 spA Vaporeon 3
176 spA Samurott 2
172 spA Porygon2 1
163 spA Empoleon 4
156 spA Politoed 4
152 spA Milotic 3
150 spA Wailord 4
149 spA Kingdra 4 (also DM)
148 spA Carracosta 2
142 spA Suicune 4
140 spA Whiscash 3
120 spA Slowbro 4
110 spA Suicune 3
Note that only Ice Types (STAB) have a shot at OHKOing Latios, no Water Type will OHKO it with Blizzard.
156 spA STAB needed to have a shot at OHKOing Latios with Ice Beam.
Ice Beam users:
258 spA Porygon2 3 (Specs) = 50% OHKO chance
167 spA Regice 1 (37,5% OHKO chance)
205 spA Porygon-Z 3 (Expert Belt) = 18,75% OHKO chance
---------- The Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with Ice Beam.
151 spA Vanilluxe 1
150 spA Lapras 3
138 spA Lapras 2
134 spA Dewgong 23
132 spA Froslass 1
130 spA Vanilluxe 4
120 spA Articuno 2
120 spA Regice 23
115 spA Cryogonal 1
All other Ice Beam users not mentioned (non-STAB) will not OHKO Latios, of course. It´s ridiculous that the highest OHKO % with ice beam belongs to Porygon2, of all things.
It would probably be wiser to just make a 1on1 analysis of "Latios vs the Subway", I mean against all 195 (780) Pokémon but that´s a lot of work...
143 atk STAB needed to have a shot at OHKOing Latios.
193 atk Salamence 2 (Expert Belt)
199 atk Haxous 34
189 atk Druddigon 3
145 atk Latias 4 (LO)
182 atk Garchomp 4
--------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Dragon Claw. All of them are outsped and OHKOd by Latios though.
154 atk Druddigon 2 (50% OHKO chance)
152 atk Flygon 1 (37,5% OHKO chance)
--------- The Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with Dragon Claw
134 atk Altaria 2
DUAL CHOP Haxorus will OHKO Latios but SpecsLatios outspeeds and always OHKOs, despite Haban Berry. SpecsLatios outspeeds and OHKOs all Haxorus sets with Dragon Pulse.
205 atk Escavalier 134
177 atk Heracross 34
159 atk Heracross 2
158 atk Nidoking 4 (Muscle Band)
--------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Megahorn.
158 atk Nidoking 1 (56,25% OHKO chance)
152 atk Rapidash 4 (31,25% OHKO chance)
ICICLE CRASH: 162 atk Beartic 4 will always OHKO Latios.
200 atk Scizor 4 (100% OHKO chance with Technician or when in Swarm range, 18,75% OHKO chance with Swarm out of range)
149 atk Durant 1 (93,75% OHKO chance with Hustle or when in Swarm range, unable to OHKO with Swarm out of range)
194 atk Pinsir 12 (12,5% OHKO chance)
156 atk Forretress 3 won´t OHKO.
193 atk Golurk 34 = Iron Fist always OHKOs, Klutz only OHKOs with max damage. Set 4 will always Fling its Iron Ball though, which always OHKOs.
158 atk Golurk 1 (Muscle Band) = Iron Fist has a 50% OHKO chance, it won´t OHKO with Klutz.
159 spA Hydreigon 1 (Dragon Fang) = 87,5% OHKO chance
---------- The Pokémon below won´t OHKO Latios with Dragon Pulse.
150 spA Latios 1
149 spA Kingdra 2 - this one will survive a specs Dragon Pulse thanks to Haban, but it will DD turn1 and Latios still outspeeds turn2.
149 spA Kingdra 3
130 spA Latias 1
182 spA Heatran 4 (Scarf)
157 spA Sceptile 3
147 spA Arcanine 3
90 spA Altaria 4
143 atk STAB to have a shot
216 atk non-STAB to have a shot
291 atk Armaldo 4 (CB)
200 atk Scizor 2 (Insect Plate)
194 atk Pinsir 2 (Insect Plate)
159 atk Armaldo 3 (LO)
205 atk Escavalier 2
194 atk Pinsir 3
177 atk Pinsir 4 (Scarf)
------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with X-Scissor.
160 atk Durant 34 (68,75% OHKO chance)
159 atk Armaldo 1 (56,25% OHKO chance)
145 atk Armaldo 2 (12,5% OHKO chance)
------- The Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with X-Scissor.
194 atk Gallade 3
178 atk Leafeon 34
161 atk Gliscor 3 (Expert Belt)
155 atk Samurott 3
142 atk Crobat 13
130 atk Leafeon 1
99 atk Drapion 1
Basically only Bug Types have a shot at OHKOing with X-Scissor.
143 atk STAB to have a shot.
216 atk non-STAB to have a shot.
185 atk Krookodile 3 (Dark Gem)
185 atk Krookodile 1 (BlackGlasses)
142 atk Drapion 2 (Dark Gem)
186 atk Tyranitar 23
------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Crunch.
189 atk Druddigon 3 (75% OHKO chance with Sheer Force, 0 with Rough Skin)
157 atk Hydreigon 4 (56,25% OHKO chance)
235 atk Aerodactyl 4 (CB) = 50% OHKO chance
178 atk Snorlax 3 (LO) = 43,75% OHKO chance
226 atk Rampardos 1 (25% OHKO chance)
183 atk Eelektross 2 (Expert Belt) = 12,5% OHKO chance
------- The Pokémon below won´t OHKO Latios with Crunch.
200 atk Garchomp 3 (Scarf) - Outrage OHKOs
200 atk Ursaring 3
154 atk Druddigon 1
192 atk Archeops 1
189 atk Granbull 3
189 atk Luxray 1
188 atk Ursaring 1
157 atk Exploud 3 (Expert Belt)
182 atk Salamence 4
180 atk Hippowdon 23
139 atk Manectric 1 (LO)
178 atk Arcanine 24
177 atk Torterra 3
167 atk Thundurus 3
167 atk Flygon 4
164 atk Hippowdon 1
157 atk Aerodactyl 23
157 atk Floatzel 2
157 atk Feraligatr 4
157 atk Exploud 2
149 atk Durant 1
137 atk Steelix 2
132 atk Hippowdon 4
130 atk Snorlax 4
128 atk Charizard 3 (Scarf)
Shhhh...this list was too long. I´m getting tired of this.
247 atk non STAB to have a shot.
349 atk Slaking 3 (CB) = 100% OHKO chance
258 atk Blaziken 3 (CB) = 25% OHKO chance
------- The Pokémon below will not OHKO Latios with Shadow Claw
178 atk Aggron 4
178 atk Beartic 1
162 atk Lucario 3 (Muscle Band)
177 atk Heracross 3
157 atk Zoroark 1
160 atk Durant 3
149 atk Charizard 2
- 231 atk un-STAB
- 152 atk STAB
172 atk Weavile 2 (NeverMeltIce)
------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Ice Punch.
224 atk Medicham 3 (Expert Belt) = 87,5% OHKO chance
172 atk Weavile 34 (68,75% OHKO chance)
200 atk Machamp 2 (Expert Belt) = 31,25% OHKO chance
All other Ice Punchers won´t OHKO Latios, namely Exploud 3, Feraligatr 3, Electivire 24, Gengar 2, Hariyama 4, Machamp 3 (Scarf), Quagsire 3, Miltank 3, Regirock 3
163 atk STAB to have a shot.
247 atk non STAB to have a shot.
194 atk Honchkrow 4 (LO)
------- The Pokémon above will always OHKO Latios with Night Slash.
182 atk Absol 3 (68,75% OHKO chance)
212 atk Slaking 4 (LO) = 68,75% OHKO chance
177 atk Bisharp 3 (50% OHKO chance)
172 atk Weavile 134 (25% OHKO chance)
All other Night Slashers won´t OHKO Latios, namely Bisharp 1, Drapion 134, Druddigon 2, Gallade 3, Slaking 2, Sceptile 2, Scizor 1, Skarmory 3 (Scarf), Skuntank 14, Zoroark 13
163 atk STAB to have a shot.
247 atk non STAB to have a shot.
200 atk Scizor 3 (LO) = 100% OHKO chance
288 atk Archeops 3 (CB) = 87,5% OHKO chance
258 atk Staraptor 3 (CB) = 25% OHKO chance
The following U-Turners won´t OHKO: Archeops 1, Braviary 3, Accelgor 3, Ambipom 1, Articuno 3, Crobat 1, Flygon 2, Eelektross 3, Gliscor 14, Mienshao 13, Staraptor 1, Thundurus 3, Yanmega 1, Unfezant 13, Zoroark 3, Vespiquen 4
ATTACK ORDER: Vespiquen 4 has a 25% OHKO chance, Vespiquen 23 won´t OHKO Latios.
I think I´m done with SE hits hmm, I don´t feel like searching for random stuff like specsporygon haiper beam...
damn there´s still Signal Beam and its 17 users...
You are like a god with these massive lists of calcs.
If I was quick enough with them I would gladly help out with "opposing subway threats vs. insert-good-subway-Pokemon-here" analyses.
The data from these is incredibly helpful.
There is a very fast (yet not quite as thorough) way of quickly working out what can OHKO, just using Peterko's formulas & adaptions.
Take any pokemon; (I'm using a period instead of x)
((total Hp/3)-2) . defense stat/ 0,44 . 120)
Simply put: the output is the attack required to guarantee an OHKO -which is exactly what Peterko did. The difference is the approximation in move base power of 120 - as that is generally the most powerful STAB move that would not cripple the attacking pokemon (fire blast, blizzard, outrage, etc). (note it's assuming the move is super effective).
The adaptation of the stat formula is then really straightforward from there:
(Stat (output from 1st eqn) / nature (1.1 if +ve)) (-52) = base stat.
which assumes 252 attacking evs, or alternatively:
(stat / nature (-21.5)) = base stat
if there are no attacking evs.
((((total Hp/3)-2) . defense stat/ 0,44 . 120)/ nature) -52 or 21.5) = base stat required to guarantee an OHKO.
You can then simply do this equation twice; once for defense, once for special defense. When you find the base stat requied to OHKO you can reference it against the pokemon and see what has a chance of OHKOing. It's also important to consider speed however. But using Serebii's stat pokedex filter makes this incredibly fast also.
You can of course take the equation and make slight adjustments to work out more: for instance changing the first 3 to a 2 makes the equation work out required base stat for a non-STAB yet SE move to OHKO.
As a possibility: from there you can write a file to auto-calculate everything, put in the base stat limits and instantly see the respective minimums to each Hp and defense input. Or you can just lob together the total damage output (as a limit) against expected defenses (x axis) and differentiate the result to give an "attack curve" which would have a point of inflection just above the Hp Y axis line if it OHKOed. Then just take readings from a z axis to give defense vs attack (again using the Y axis to reference the OHKO). Referencing the results would take as long as doing it "properly" though... So it's not really practical.
It's very rough, and has a few flaws but it's much faster than going through absolutely everything in the subway in a 1v1 basis.
Hahaha, 6 snow cloak misses on #207. (Spoiler: I lost)
I can't decide if I hate Froslass12 (hail), Froslass4 (sash/D bond/Blizzard), or Weavile3 (Sash/fake out/protect/ice punch/night slash) more.
Battle Subway Super Singles Record - 120
I have just reached 98 wins (and still going) in the Battle Subway Super Singles so thought I would share the team:
I tried a few teams out, including my old Trick one, but to no avail and a poor 49 win record!
I thought, as I wasn't having too much fun (after all when is losing ever fun?), I'd try some of the pokemon I had best enjoyed in Gen IV and see how I got on. The 3 pokemon I picked were:
INFERNAPE @ Choice Band
31 IVs for Attack and Speed
LATIOS @ Life Orb
31 IVs for SA and Spd
GENGAR @ Focus Sash
31 IVs for SA and Spd
The tactics (if you can call them that!) were to knock out the first pokemon with Infernape if I thought I could (usually with flare blitz/close combat) and then switch depending on the next threat. What I have found is that conservative play is rewarded to if a rock/steel pokemon starts but may have sturdy I would just u-turn to break that and then proceed to kill with Latios surf. Latios is surprisingly bulky so it can take neutral hits well and as Infernape attracks water/psychic or ground these are easily absorbed whilst Latios hits back. I found surf good on this team as a solution to Fire/ground and rock pokemon. I've not tested Ice Beam so happy for some thought on that?
I've not regretted two pokemon with Thunderbolt either as water and flying pokemon (especially legendary flyers) seem popular in my run so far.
The Dragon Pulse is also a very strong move and gets a surprising number of KOs. Once Latios is down (assuming Infernape is still battling) I switch to gengar as the counter/sash trick then Destiny Bond is a fairly reliable setup and gets the job done. If I face a special attacker I either just bond or rely on Gengar's speed to 2HKO.
These tactics have seen me move to 98 wins without too much trouble but the following teams (in order of difficulty) are not as much fun to fight!:
a. Trick Room
b. Ghost (Two of my pokes are weak to Ghost and a lot of ghost users have priority or are on trick room teams so I have to rely on Flare Blitz (and Infernape taking some hits like a real man! or some luck with Gengar to get through)
c. Evasion (although only seen one pokemon use double team, stat up isn't such and issue as counter/sash or desinty bond has done the job so far).
d. Paralysis/Sandstream/Toxic as they break my Gengar's Sash!
I can't say I put lots of thought into the team although the levitate / infernape lead combo is very effective but I have to admit it is fun to play and I'm hoping I can make the 100 wins very soon.
If anyone has any feedback I'm happy to receive it so please get in touch as I'm back to my DSi for some more counter/sash fun!
Now 112 and still going!
Run ended at 120 after a disaster mistake! I got distracted by my son and a luxray lead appeared, forgot in the moment that it might have intimidate so just flare blitzed, it did have intimidate and thunder waved Infernape. It went down next turn and heracross came in. It Megahorned Gengar who countered but it only brought it to a sliver of health and activated salac berry. Predictably it then critical hit Gengar and then critical hit Latios to end the run. Obviously I'm annoyed that I messed up but I am still very pleased with the team so I'll start another run again soon!
My Metagross just got OHKO'd by a Conkeldurr with a Fling Iron Ball crit and my Porygon2 died to a Gigalith that got two Rock Slide flinches in a row (Bronzong from earlier used Trick Room) then a crit.
Hey guys, I've been trying out the Battle Subway a bit and I've been loving it so far. I've been having great success with CurseLax, which has single handedly won games for me so far.
I just have a couple of questions:
I've been trying to use DD Mence in the Battle Subway but have been thoroughly underwhelmed by it, possibly because my IVs are a bit messed up for it. I'm thinking of replacing Mence with Kingdra, so do any of you have experience using Kingdra in the Battle Subway? I was thinking RestoChesto or SubDD Kingdra would work best for the Subway.
My second question is that I've been planning in my head a team of Dual Screens + Gorebyss + SmashPass Recipient, which obviously tries to get the match finished early. Does this sort of strategy work well in the Subway? I figured a team of: DW Espeon with Light Clay and Dual Screens; SmashPass Gorebyss with Sub + White Herb; and a recipient like Garchomp would do well. Has anyone tried a strategy like this?
Thanks for any help, I'm still trying to get the hang of the Subway but I'm doing fairly well.
I've used RestoChesto Kingdra and it is pretty good. On the other hand SmashPass is a bit underwhelming.
On the contrary, I've been finding Dragon Dance Salamence to be a big success in my Singles Subway Team. This is mostly due to Salamence's awesome resists and great natural bulk, as well as Intimidate. But of course though, it needs proper team support, and with that said...
During my stay back in Indonesia over the past two weeks or so, I began to get bored of Doubles Subway and proceeded to work on Singles. Unfortunately, the WiFi was incompatible with the DS so it won't let me FakeGTS the Pokemon into my game. However, this gave me a lot of time to think it through.
My very first draft of the team involved Uxie, Latios, and Registeel, but after re-reading this thread I figured that it might be risky to go mono-Attack on either Pokemon that won't always get the chance to set up. I also noticed that Klutz Golurk wasn't especially kind to this team either. The second draft of the team placed Haxorus over Latios for Mold Breaker and attacking coverage, as well as Dragon Dance. It may have worked - I don't know, but I ended up scrapping the team anyways because it feels ugly (lol). I considered Salamence over Haxorus, but I was just a resistance freak and it didn't go quite well with me that none of the team resisted Electric.
I decided to look around for more alternatives - and Whimsicott immediately caught my eye. With Prankster, access to Switcheroo, Charm, Flash, Stun spore, Memento, etc., as well as having an Electric resistance, I knew this was something I -just- had to try out. Unfortunately, it dawned on me later that day that Switcheroo + Memento is illegal, and thus left me scrambling over alternatives. But before I did come up with an alternative, Jumpman16 posted his team and distracted all my attention away from it.
And yes - the Drapion team. When I got back from vacation I hacked it in and attempted to run the Subway with it. However, I somewhat short attention span took over when the team just got -so boring- to use that I ended up losing battle 28 due to my inattentiveness. But as I was still in the mood for Battle Subway, I gazed back upon my piece of paper (now missing somewhere - probably trashed) that gameplanned my previous team...
Subway Super Singles
Streak: 175 (and still going)
Whimsicott @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stun Spore
- Leech Seed
Salamence @ Lum Berry
EVs: 244 HP / 116 Atk / 4 Def / 68 SDef / 76 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
Registeel @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
Ok so this is basically a boring Trick team but things are working out pretty well thus far. The only threat that has come into this team was a Bulk Up Braviary which Salamence took care of with crit Outrage. That was back when I had Light Screen on Whimsicott - and now I've given it Leech Seed as a method of taking care of Bulk Uppers and some Calm Minders alike, and it helped Salamence greatly as it lacked healing, allowing me to set up Substitutes and Dragon Dances -very- easily while Leech Seed eventually saps the victim out. Charm is also an awesome tool for harassing Cursers/Bulk Uppers who can't really be broken down by this team's attacks, and pairs very well with Leech Seed. Whimsicott also gets the chance to take care of things one on one if it has to, ensuring that it is not completely helpless if the opponent tries to take advantage after a switch from being locked into a move. Stun Spore may be miss-prone, but this team luckily does not care too much for the Speed drop or perhaps even the full paralysis, and is only really there for convenience. Except against that cursed Guillotine Pinsir I suppose -.-.
Part of the reason I chose Salamence and Registeel as this team's offensive duo is due to the incredible defensive synergy that they offer. Should things go terribly wrong with Whimsicott, these two are capable of making it up easily. Salamence's access to Intimidate is also useful as a makeshift "Charm" if it has to, and repeated switches between Salamence and Registeel can leave the opponent extremely weakened and easy to set up on (I've had to do this twice against Rhyperior). Salamence is also given a bulky spread to capitalize on its resistances so it has ample time to set up, and is given enough Speed to outrun Scarf Manectric after two Dragon Dances. Its Substitutes are strong enough to withstand nve special attacks up to around Timid Moltres Flamethrower (which Whimsicott also survives), so setting up wasn't an issue. Also, I don't want to have to use Switcheroo every time I need to get something set up - I want to, whenever possible, to keep Whimsicott from using Switcheroo until I need it.
Registeel...well...I don't need to explain much. I pumped all of those Attack EVs in because Registeel frankly sucks at killing and he's bulky enough to set up to +6 anyways.
Anyways, any help is appreciated as I plan to take this further on in the challenge. I don't have everything memorized in my head so I could easily miss a few threats or so.
I know this didn't make the list, but my 64 match win streak ended when the opponent's Gengar CH'd my burned Conkeldurr. My last pokemon (Darmanitan) was asleep.
Eviolite Porygon2 is amazing in Battle Subway. It survived a 200 BP Reversal from Lucario, took like 35-40% from Soul Dew Latios' Psychic, less than 50% from +4 Quagsire's Earthquake, and lots of other hard hitting stuff.
This team has a huge problem with Calm Mind + Rest Suicune, but it managed to get past Cune in two battles.
I don't breed dedicated Battle Subway pokes, so my team was a compilation of pokes I bred for wifi battles that I tested in Battle Subway.
My team was:
Darmanitan @ Life Orb
252 Attack/252 Speed/4 SpDef
Conkeldurr @ Black Belt (I felt the extra recovery from a boosted Drain Punch would make up for lack of Leftovers)
132 HP/252 Attack/124 SpDef
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
252 HP/196 Def/60 SpDef
I lost to Lovely Kiss Jynx, Calm Mind/Heat Wave/Shadow Ball Chandelure (damn Flame Body prevented P2 from walling it), and Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball Gengar.
I made the mistake of leaving Darmanitan in against Jynx (I thought the Jynx was not +Speed), and it put Darmanitan to sleep. Switched in P2, and a combination of T-Wave, T-Bolt, Recover, and stalling defeated Jynx.
Chandelure came out, and I was afraid of White Herb Overheat or something that would 2HKO Conkeldurr, so I didn't switch to him. Since Chandy had Flame Body, P2 was unable to wall it. I T-Wave'd it, but it tanked my T-Bolt with 2 Calm Minds, and broke me down with +2 Heat Wave. After P2 died, I thought it was over. Conk used Payback (50 BP, but I had to paralyze Chandy with P2 for Conk to have any chance of getting a move in), which did about half. Chandy for some reason used WoW (didn't matter since Flame Body burned me), but that was an amazing gift, which gave the boost needed to ensure a KO with the second Payback.
Gengar comes in vs. 173/197 HP Conk and sleeping Darmanitan. Conk would have survived Sludge Bomb without crit, and Payback would have OHKO'd Gengar unless it had Sash, but Gengar got hax with Sludge Bomb against Conk, and Darmanitan couldn't wake up after one turn.
It sucks because this was the first time I had extended success (and not that much hax against me) in Subway, but I fell 6 short of making the list.
battle #? (high 30's or low 40's): I was down to 1v1, my 90% HP Darmanitan vs. full HP Moltres. Opponent used Sky Attack, and Power Herb allowed it to attack first turn, but it missed. Darmanitan used Rock Slide for the OHKO.
battle 48: I had paralyzed Darmanitan (60%ish HP), full HP Conk, and full HP Porygon2, vs. Lucario. Luke KO'd Darmanitan with Close Combat (expected). Conk used Mach Punch, which would have killed -1 Def Lucario (and probably 0 Lucario), but it had Sash. Luke's Close Combat got a crit to OHKO Conk. P2 was my last hope. I knew it could survive a CC, but Lucario used Reversal. I thought it was all over, but P2 survived the Reversal with 6/192 HP and used T-Bolt to get the win.
battle 49: Ingo leads with Chandy. I switch to P2, but it had Flame Body. I was able to stall for a bit with T-Wave/Recover and weaken it with T-Bolt. Thank goodness it had Overheat, because it kept using it until it was -6. I switch in Conk to set up Bulk Up against -6 Chandy, and Mach Punch made it easy vs. the other two.
battle 58: I faced a Calm Mind/Rest Suicune, the bane of this team's existence, but Conk got a crit on a +1 Drain Punch vs. 70%ish HP Suicune, which saved the day.
Pros: I finally found a pokemon (Porygon2) without breeding dedicated Subway pokes that can come in on virtually anything (especially Dragons) and stall it out, or at least slow down momentum to prevent the sweep. Darmanitan's Flare Blitz hits like a truck.
Cons: hax of course, and Suicune. P2 can't get past Suicune b/c of Calm Mind, and can't stall/break it down because of Rest. Conk's unboosted Drain Punch does around 28-30%. I think the only thing I can do with this team against it is to get Conk in on a predicted Rest (and hope it hasn't used too many CMs), Bulk Up once, and hope the CPU is stupid enough to allow me to Drain Punch twice and Mach Punch once. I'm still worried about getting Conk in after Suicune has used CM.
Having used P2 before myself (My best streak was using it), I definitely recommend giving Toxic a try replacing Twave. I see that Twave does benefit your team a lot, but Toxic just lets P2 beat basically every stall pokemon that does not have rest (whereas Twave does not). If you do wish for the paralysis that much, you can try Discharge over Tbolt.
I think it's probably better to have a special attacker (fast one like Starmie/Latios) in your team though, replacing either Conkeldurr or Darmanitan.
Okay, so I actually got into a Super Single, and almost losing to a Sawk with Rain, I decided to go with Sand instead since it rarely gets fizzled (as Drizzle and Drought in non-existent in the CPU Line)
I'm using the uncreative cookie cutter, DDT-tar @ Lum, Reuni, and Excadrill @ LO. So far it is super consistent, but I wonder how far will I actually go before ridiculous crap happens.
It already happened though, I had a +2 DDT-tar facing Zoroark, I missed Stone Edge 3 times in a row, which he used to SD'd up, and U-turned twice and killed it. I still won, but I am quite scared already.
Anyone can offer some words of wisdom?
"stone edge is the worst move in bw"
Having some fun in the WiFi line, but just rank 6 as of now. Ran into the most bullshitty Clefable set I have ever seen:
Clefable @ Flame Orb
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
I managed to stall it out of Stored Power PP and then it killed itself with Struggle after like 50 turns of randomly mashing the A-button. I still won, but man, was it boring - and it's a true testament to why there needs to be an Evasion Clause in competitive battling.
That reminds me - why does almost nobody in this thread ever play the Wi-Fi line? It's like you're fighting dumb AI's with good Pokémon (No Klutz + Fling Golurk, for example).
Also, Purgatory, thanks for encouraging me to make a Minimize team with Clefable and Substitute Blissey & Chansey to upload to the Wi-Fi line :3