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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    @Peterko: Haha that Cloyster guide should be its own article!

    Just something I noticed:
    It isn't a big deal, but against Flareon 1 (sash) and 4, you should Icicle Spear. It just scrapes a OHKO after Shell Smash I think (correct me if I'm wrong; I have a tendancy to make mistakes with damage calculators but I vaguely remember killing it with 2+ Icicle Spear when I used Cloyster). Against 2 (max HP) and 3 (max HP and Defense) you should Razor Shell though, and if you're battling an Eeveelution trainer you probably won't know any better regardless.
  2. RiggyRob

    RiggyRob

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    Whoever said theorymonning was more fun than actually battling in the Subway probably has a very good point - I restarted my Staraptor/Garchomp/Suicune team on a streak today, but it's now 3am and all I can think about is how much better a new streak could be if only I had the Pokemon to try out in a new team...godammit ¬_¬
  3. SA1TS

    SA1TS

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    That's dissapointing, but shot for trying! I still have to try it out though if I get the chance.

    PS: I hate doubles too, it makes me sad in my heart.

    PPS: Congrats Peterko, awesome streak
  4. Tebow

    Tebow

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    That Cloyster/Garchomp/Suicune team is amazing... im already at 91 in one day! excellent work
  5. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    How to use Cloyster, part II

    Lol I didn´t think (competitive) people would start using the exact same team...but it´s my own fault now that I´m even posting a guide/how to use it...stupid me.

    Oh well...

    How to use Cloyster-Garchomp-Suicune (open)
    [size=-2]Glaceon – Smash + Blast, Suicune beats them all if anything goes wrong
    Gliscor – Smash + Spear
    Golem – Smash + Spear
    Golurk – Smash + Spear
    Gothitelle – Smash + Spear. Cune should handle set 4 easily if you manage to lose to Flatter confusion hax + Psychic. Note that after a few CMs, the oponent will only use Psych Up.
    Granbull – INTIMIDATE and relative bulk, this one´s relatively difficult to take down, as are some other normal types. I´d say Smash + Spear and see what happens. Prepare to use Chomp just in case, because Cune doesn´t like DE.
    Gyarados – Smash + Spear. Set 1 is annying, it leads with Twave and I always get fully para on the first turn I attack. Sets 2 and 3 fall to +2 Spear. Set 4 can take the Spear most of the time thanks to Intimidate and max HP, but it can´t do much in return. If you feel like it, use Rock Blast. But Gyarados is too dangerous to give him a shot.
    Hariyama – THICK FAT fighter with priority! You should definitely do some damage to it. Razor Shell or Spear right away, or go Smash + attack. If set 3 beats you, use Cune to have it CC for another 2 drops and Scald for the KO. Outrage does min 83% after the first CC def drop so that is another option. Set 1 can´t break Cune´s Sub with Vital Throw. Watch out for Custap Drum set 2. Set 4 IIRC Brick Breaks turn 1 most of the time, but it can also Belly Drum. You need to damage it. +2 Spear against Thick Fat does 105-120 dmg / 219 HP = 48-55%. BB 2HKOs you. I think it´s best to open with Spear to check for Thick Fat and then act accordingly. Statistically, 2x Spear should do more damage than +2 Spear because you have 10 hits instead of 5, so more chances for a CH. Just prepare yourself to lose Cloyster to this one.
    Haxorus – Smash + Spear
    Heatran – DANGER! I switch to Cune. Set 1 hits hard with Earth Power and always breaks your Sub with it. You need at least 1 CM, then PP stall Earth Power and Dark Pulse. Watch out for sD drops. Set 2 is much more manageable as it will try to WoW Cune most of the time and you´re behind a Sub. Set 3 SunnyBeam is even worse than set 1, also it survives a Quake 50% of the time. Tough one huh. You could Smash + Razor Shell, but set 4 opens with Magma Storm which means instaKO for Cloyster, that´s why I choose the switch to Cune. It still hits like a truck and once got 2 CHs out of the 3 hits with Storm against Cune. You don´t want to face many lead Heatran in your streak.
    Heracross – Smash + Spear
    Hippowdon – Smash + Spear but it´s possible to lose Cloyster against Hippo if set 1 CHs you with Quake. Watch out for Yawn.
    Honchkrow – Spear for the KO. You don´t want to risk it Snatching your boosts (set 3).
    Houndoom – Smash + Spear
    Hydreigon – Smash + Spear. Don´t be surprised if set 4 flinches you with Dragon Gem Dragon Rush – set up Cune if you lose Cloy or Outrage it.
    Infernape – Smash + Rock Blast but WATCH OUT! Annoying Fire type thanks to FO and Sash. You should be able to Smash against sets 1 and 2. Set 3 will beat you with FO+CC but maybe it will CC right away and give you a shot. Set 4 from my experience FO turn 1 and then Encores turn 2, giving you a chance to Smash and KO with Rock Blast through Sash. Don´t be surprised if it Flare Blitzes/CCs though.
    Jolteon – Garchomp. Outspeeds and OHKOs all sets.
    Jynx – Smash + Spear. They tend to go for the KO with Psychic.
    Kangaskhan – Smash + Spear. They will always FO turn 1 and then Sub or attack turn 2. One +2 Spear hit does min. 25,5% dmg so it should always KO even through the Sub. You should survive the 2 hits thanks to your defense.
    Kingdra – Smash + Spear. The Sitrus set 3 will sometimes survive, so don´t be surprised.
    Klinklang – TOUGH ONE! This sort of laughs at your Razor Shell and statuses you or Volt Switches or Gear Grinds and is faster. I like to go to Garchomp and KO with Quake. Yes maybe you´ll have to eat a Steel Gem Flash Cannon.
    Krookodile – Smash + Spear. Donn´t forget Intimidate.
    Landorus – Smash + Spear. You can outright KO it with Spear but it´s quite important to be at +2 against Legendary trainers. Rock Slide might flinch you.
    Lanturn – Chomp. You only have a 62,5% chance to OHKO set 4, but you should survive the Ice Beam. All other sets fall to Quake.
    Lapras – DANGER! Rock Blast right away or Smash + Rock Blast and pray it hits and that Thunder or Thunderbolt didn´t paralyze you. Lapras is one of those Pokémon that seriously counter your whole team thanks to BoltBeam and rather solid bulk. You really don´t want to face many of these. Brightpowder, BoltBeam and potential Water Absorb, a real nightmare.
    Latias – Spear! I´ve lost a streak because I tried to Smash. Set 3 will TrickScarf and then proceeed to beat you team.
    Latios – Smash + Spear. No TrickScarf set here, but Thunderbolt/Thunder mean para danger.
    Leafeon – DANGER! One of the worst Pokémon to face for this team. If you´re unlucky, this beats your whole team or leaves you holding by a thread. Set 4 holds a QC and has insane defense. Smashing here is suicidal and almost cost me a game once (hint: QC activated turn 2). Garchomp has to Outrage for the 2HKO but QC and Leaf Blade high CH ratio means that Chomp will be seriously dent or maybe KOed (it does 43-51% to Chomp). Cune gets 2HKOed and can´t OHKO even at +6. If you didn´t get it by now, Icicle Spear!
    Lickilicky – DANGER! Oh man, a normal type that survives a lot. Set 1 paralyzes you, sets 2 and 3 survive a couple of Spears and set 4 paralyzes you with Body Slam, avoids your attacks with Lax Incense and then Explodes. I open with a Spear so that I damage this as much as possible for Chomp to finish off if Cloy fails.
    Lilligant – Smash + Spear but this might annoy with Teeter Dance, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, Toxic etc.
    Lopunny – Smash + Spear. If you get a Flame Orb, set up Cune.
    Lucario – Smash + Razor Shell. The #1 reason for Razor Shell over Surf is Lucario, because RS always OHKOs at +2 (unless you miss). Fortunately, no Luca set has priority attacks. Set 3 holds a Sash hmm, but most of the time you´ll face set 4.
    Ludicolo – DANGER! Seriously, Icicle Spear this one. It likes to open with FO. Set 4 beats Suicune and speed ties with your Cloyster (FO+GK KOs you), but you have Outrage.
    Luxray – Garchomp. Watch out for the Baloon one, it survives an Outrage.
    Machamp – Smash + Spear if it´s not the Scarf set 3. You should Spear that one and hope for no confusion hax. It will only get at most 2 more DynamicPunches against Cune and Struggle afterwards, you should be able to handle it somehow. Outrage doesn´t OHKO.
    Magmortar – Smash + Rock Blast because of Flame Body. Cune should be able to handle it incase of emergency.
    Magnezone – WAAAAH GET AWAY FROM ME!!! The worst oponent for this team, period. Where should I start. Razor Shell is a joke against it. All sets have either max HP or max Defense, shhh. Then there´s everyone´s favourite Brightpowder. Flash Cannon has a good shot at 2HKOing Chomp (85-102 dmg / 183 HP = 46-56%), while Sturdy makes them always survive a Quake. Worst thing if they Magnet Rise, oh man. Sometimes, they do it on the switch which means you´ve got to improvise, hard. Yes they will Magnet Rise first even if they can outright KO your Suicune/Cloyster, which sucks. magnezone cost me the streak and almost ended it before that as well. Zone is the main reason I´m reconsidering my EV spread on Garchomp, although I love the speed. I will probably switch to 212 speed and 118 sD to ensure I survive two Flash Cannons everytime (save for CHs). Maybe I could open with a Razor Shell or Spear to break Sturdy, but if it Magnet Rises, Chomp can´t KO and max dmg Fire Fang doesn´t even deal 50%.
    Mamoswine – Smash + Spear. Don´t be surprised if it Hails and avoids all your hits.
    Mandibuzz – annoying piece of Pokémon that survives a lot of beating. Don´t break you DS if you lose Cloyster to this one. You should either Smash + Spear or Spear.
    Manectric – Chomp. This will often Overheat, but also TrickScarf. But your Chomp holds one as well, so you´re fine. You have to Outrage the Baloon set 3, beware of Static.
    Marowak – Smash + Spear
    Medicham – DANGER! Hits like two trucks, mainly the most frequent LO set 4. It´s better to face this as a lead and Smash + Spear, beacause it will HJK. Hmm now that I look at its movesets, set 1 has Feint and will beat Cloyster if you Smash, watch out for that one. You will see set 4 most of the time, though.
    Meganium – Smash + Spear. Set 4 will Seed you.
    Metagross – DANGER! Takes Razor Shells like a Champ, hits hard, TrickOrbs, Explodes and survives a Quake sometimes. I open with Razor Shell and finish off with Chomp. If you want to be smart and switch to Chomp to give it a Scarf, it can backfire if Meta decides to Protect next turn which results in a switch afterwards. The Scarf is generally very important on Chomp (that´s why you use it), but againt Psychic trainers, it saves your butt, period. Oh yeah, most of the time you lose Cloyster and finish off with Quake or set up Cune.
    Mienshao – DANGER! Fighting priority user. I attack with Spear because HJK + Feint KOs you. You can save Cloyster with a switch to Chomp on the supposed Feint, but don´t be surprised if you get hit by a HJK.
    Milotic – Suicune. Stallwar. Long set up.
    Miltank – THICK FAT! Don´t worry if you lose Cloy to Milky, Cune should be able to set up.
    Mismagius – DANGER! Set 3 knows Bolt, Icy Wind, Shadow Ball and Destiny Bond. You should Spear that one or risk the 10% para chance. Set 4 can be annoying, but it can´t touch you (unless you hurt yourself).
    Moltres – Smash + Spear. Burns happen, also CHs and flinches.
    Mr. Mime – Smash + Spear
    Muk – Garchomp. Don´t be surprised to get a QC Explosion to the face though.
    Musharna – DANGER! Spear this. If you get a CH/10, you will 2HKO this. Against set 4, it´s OK to Smash, but set 2 will beat you most of the time. TR+2 Attacks >= 2 Spears > Smash + 1 attack.
    Nidoking – I´m ballsy and say Smash + Spear, but you will get poisoned sooner or later. Quake OHKOs though.
    Nidoqueen – same as Nidoking, but set 2 may paralyze you.
    Ninetales – Smash + Rock Blast because set 4 survives your Razor Shell thanks to Passho. Quake if something goes wrong.
    Pinsir – Smash + Spear. You like the set 4 as lead, but not set 3. Lax Incense. Evil item. It´s possible to lose a couple of Pokémon against this one.
    Politoed – Smash + Rock Blast/Spear. Maybe you get lucky and it doesn´t hit with its 84% accurate Focus Blast, but Cune stalls this one badly. Set 3 is somewhat dangerous with the Belly Drum and Water Absorb, but Outrage KOs (min 87% dmg) after the Drum.
    Poliwrath – DANGER!!! Probably Top 5 or top 3 worst Pokémon to face for this team. Water Absorb Wrath beats Cune 1on1 with Focus Punch, no other Absorber/Storm Drainer does that (except for maybe Lapras 3), because Cune can PP stall Vaporeon and Gastrodon. Much more manageable as a lead, because it will often go for Focus Punch. My Cloy uses Icicle Spear to KO it in like 5 turns. Spear does min 50 damage, which means it always breaks the Sub. Set 2 knows Belly Drum, but you should damage it enough for an Outrage finisher. Even if you don´t, Outrage KOs set 2 after the Drum/Shell Bell recovery.
    Porygon-Z – DANGER! A hard hitting special attacker that can take an Outrage. Tri attack statuses, BoltBeam, etc. On top of that, all team members give it a spA Download boost (as if it needed that). Icicle Spear and then finish off with Garchomp.
    Porygon2 – DANGER! Lol if Z is dangerous, this one´s even worse. Much bulkier, but hits almost as hard. Unboosted Spear does 57% min damage against sets 134, but set 1 holds a Sitrus. Set 2 takes min 33% from a Spear. Not even Spear + Outrage is enough to KO this, most of the time. It´s probably wiser to PP stall this one.
    Probopass – DANGER! I switch to Chomp, but it doesn´t like STAB LO Flash Cannon. Sometimes I Razor Shell first to check the set, but 3 sets are able to paralyze you in one way or another.
    Quagsire – Smash + Spear
    Raichu – Chomp. Those two Focus Sash sets are annoying. Set 1 uses Thief as you break its Sash, stealing your Scarf. Set 3 uses Reversal, which does over half.
    Raikou – Chomp or Smash + Spear. Shuca and 2 Air Baloons and Magnet Rise means you will Outrage this most of the time. Can´t do much to Chomp other than Shadow Ball. Smashing is risky because of Volt Switch and Bolt/Thunder para chance.
    Rampardos – Smash + Spear.
    Rapidash – Smash + Razor Shell/Spear. Watch out for the annoying set 3 with Horn Drill, it´s Sashed. After Flare Blitz recoil, +2 Spear should KO.
    Regice – DANGER! The epitome of bulky BoltBeamer. Set 1 takes 61-72% from Outrage, so it can survive 2 hits (Sitrus), obviously OHKOing back with a Beam. You have to be gutsy and Smash + Rock Blast this or Rock Blast right away, hoping that it hits and you didn´t get paralyzed. Otherwise you´re in for a close battle, more like loss. You will face many legendary trainers (1/10), hope they don´t use Regice very often.
    Regigigas – DANGER! More like annoying piece of... It can´t get it going but takes hits like a champ, plus uses DT and parafusionflinch hax. Yes it is possible to lose to Regigigas. It will surely hurt. Smash + Spear and hope for the best.[/size]


    136/195 finished

    atsync you´re right about Flareon 1, +2 Spear does 145-170 damage / 140 HP. But Suicune´s got your back if anything goes wrong (Fire Blast burn/Rock Blast miss). It´s a different case than Froslass for example, which is more of a threat to the team.

    Also, note that it´s key to pay attention to the battles with this team. Yesterday, I didn´t for the first time and lost to Vaporeon-Leafeon-Glaceon at 83 or something. I didn´t feel like stalling all day against Vappy (big mistake) which cost me Cloyster. Afterwards I didn´t pay attention to Struggle (after like what, 60+ turns of 40 Acid Armor, 20 Aqua Ring, some Pumps and Ice Beams, didn´t get no CHs with Quake) and Cune had to face Leafeon naked because I was watching TV and smashing Rest while Struggle broke the Sub. You can imagine what happened afterwards. 2HKO with Leaf Blade/no burn and Chomp was finished off by Blizzard.
  6. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    hhmmmmmmmmm this seems interesting i have done battle subway for a while now and i have never been to good at it probally because it is quite different to competitive battling. i am trying a team consisting of Whimsicott(Crippler) , Stoutland(Crippler) and Latais(Sweeper) and hopefully i will beat my highest streak ever in super single a measly 39
  7. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    Nice guide, Peterko!

    And yeah, I hear you on Suicune versus the darn acid armor Vaporean. That thing has enough pp (and moves which pressure doesn't affect) to make stalling it out a real grind, but still, it's the far safer play than trying to get cute. When I feel the urge to bring in something else against a Vaporean, that's a signal to me that it's time for a break ere I punt my streak.
  8. M. Rock

    M. Rock

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    I don't have a streak worth posting, but some really trippy Friday the 13th shit that happened to me today:

    Pokemon HeartGold Battle Factory, Open Level Challenge. My team was Alakazam #2 (Pshychic, Focus Blast, Charge Beam, Recoverr), Machamp #2 (Revenge, Earthquake, Payback, Counter), and a Meganium (i forget which one). I'm going up against a team with Lapras and Charizard. The last opponent I beat had Tentacruel #1 (Surf, Sludge Bomb, Icy Wind, Barrier), so I swapped out Meganium for Tentacruel. I won the fight because of the switch.
    Now here's the weird part. A few battles later, I get to fight #14. The previous opponent had crap, so I decided not to switch. Alakazam VS Slowbro, Charge Beam falls short of the 2HKO because it does not score a SpA boost, and Alaka dies. Machamp comes in, kills with Payback. Now Blastoise comes out. Blast uses Zen Headbutt (da fuq?), gets a flinch. Goes again with Avalanche I hit him down to red with Revenge (good thing I didn't use counter, it wouldn't have done much). I die, then send in Tenta to finish things with Sludge Bomb. It's 1-to-1, Tenta is at 100%, feeling fine. Last thing out is a Gastrodon, OHKOs with Earthquake. I lost with a win streak of 13 on Friday the 13th O_O.
    The weird thing about the loss is that I could've beat the last guy if I kept Meganium. But I had to swap him out in order to beat the guy with the Charizard. So, I would have lost if I didn't swap, and still lost if I did.
    Really trippy, I am not playing Pokemon anymore today...
  9. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
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    How to use Cloyster, part III

    Here´s the rest of it.

    The whole guide will be part of my 623 streak post (link is in my sig).

    How to use Cloyster-Garchomp-Suicune (open)
    [size=-2]Regirock – DANGER! This one´s tougher to handle than it seems. Smash + Spear. Razor Shell is kind of risky plus it activates Custap Explosion, so you´ll lose 1,5 Pokémon. Finish off with Quake or Scald. Smash first because set 4 uses Rock Polish, which flinches with Slide and then Explodes.
    Registeel – Suicune. You should be able to stall/set up even if it´s the Rock Polish set 2 with ThunderPunch (max 50 dmg doesn´t break your 51 HP Sub).
    Reuniclus – DANGER! This is similar to Musharna. It´s very bulky and survives +2 Spear. You´re better off using Spear twice, hope for some CHs. Set 4 will TrickOrb so you only get 2 turns.
    Rhyperior – Smash + Spear. The super defense monster set 3 will survive a +2 STAB SE Spear with Solid Rock, not many other Pokémon can do that. On the other hand, Cloy doesn´t care about Payback.
    Roserade – Spear or Smash+Spear, why? Because Sludge Bomb poisons. Maybe set 3 will Leaf Storm instead, but who knows. The other sets are annoyers.
    Salamence – Smash + Spear. Set 1 has Scary Face, set 2 Slide flinch...but Sala is overall a good and safe Smash candidate. Don´t forget Intimidate.
    Samurott – Suicune. A bulky water = a job for Cune. Set 4 knows Grass Knot but you should have plenty of CMs under your belt by the time it starts using that. Noticed the AI doesn´t consider GK 100 base power against Cune and uses other attacks first.
    Sawk – Smash + Spear.
    Sceptile – Smash + Spear sets 2-4, Spear set 1 or if you don´t know the set. Set 1 has Leaf Storm + QA which beats Smash. Fast grass type with strong STAB attacks, the team doesn´t like that, get rid of this ASAP.
    Scizor – DANGER! Bug/Steel, Cloyster doesn´t like those. Razor Shell is a joke, but I use it. Go for the defense drop so that Garchomp has an easier time finishing this off. Also watch the dmg output to see if it´s Technician or Swarm. It´s possible to set up Cune on Swarm set 4. Set 3 knows SD, holds a LO and may U-Turn. Watch out for that. Scizor is one of those Pokémon that Cloyster can and will often lose to.
    Scrafty – DANGER! Bulky as hell plus STAB fighting attacks. Garchomp will have to finish it off, should Cloy fail. It happens.
    Seismitoad – Smash + Spear. Set 1 Sludge Wave poisons, but is set up bait for Cune.
    Serperior – DANGER! Similar to Sceptile, but worse because of Powder set 3. Serp can take a hit and Leaf Storm hurts. It´s probably best to Spear, because the odd Leaf Tornado lowers accuracy.
    Shiftry – Smash + Spear
    Shuckle – DANGER! More like annoying thing. Most of the time, you´ll live with a +2, but at low health maybe only able to KO one more Pokémon. Smash + attack. Set 4 stalls like crazy with Toxic+Protect, Set 3 knows DT but even Aerial Ace should be enough after the Power Trick. Hmm set 1 uses Gastro Acid and Power Split, but you´ll be able to get to +6, which should be enough for the rest of the battle. Watch out for Encore though.
    Skarmory – DANGER! +2 Spear is not a sure KO on the WW or Roar sets. You KO the Scarf set though.
    Skuntank – Smash + Spear. I remember a few instances where this annoyed me. Don´t underestimate LO Foul Play and Taunt.
    Slaking – Smash twice + Spear.
    Slowbro – Suicune. You should fully set up on each set.
    Slowking – Suicune. Set 3 Specs Psychic hurts like hell though. Not sure which attack it uses against Cloy. You have to stall with Cune and set up on Struggle (with Cloy).
    Snorlax – DANGER! Thick Fat, max defense on all sets. I use Razor Shell to get a def. drop. You should do enough damage for Chomp to finish off. Chomp´s Outrage does 117-138/235 = 49,8-58,7% against sets 123 and 106-126/235 = 45-53,6% against set 4.
    Spiritomb - Smash + Spear if you feel like it, otherwise set up Cune. Beware of set 2 Taunt.
    Staraptor – Smash + Spear
    Starmie – DANGER!!! If you misplay, you´ll lose easily. If it´s set 4 (Psychic), switch to Chomp-Bolt, switch to Cune-Beam, repeat until you PP waste Ice Beam and then Outrage relatively safely. Outrage does 129-153 dmg / 135 HP, so a 75% OHKO (12/16) and one of the main reasons Chomp is Scarfed. Otherwise, Starmie would own this team badly. Against the other sets, you can risk Smash + Rock Blast, which always KOs unless you miss. Also, Cune should be able to set up against those 3.
    Steelix – Smash + Spear/Razor Shell. Lix will take a few hits though. The QC Stone Edge set 3 one is able to beat Cloy and will Explode next turn.
    Suicune – Suicune. There´s no way that your Cune loses to the AI´s. If you PP waste the attacks, you can set up +6 Cloy. One of the very rare occasions.
    Swampert – Smash + Spear. It will probably survive the first.
    Tangrowth – DANGER! Physical defensive Grass type. Similar to Leafeon and as dangerous. Set 4 Lax Incense is really bad. Consider a turn 1 Icicle Spear.
    Tauros – Intimidate. Smash + Spear, but it´ll probably survive.
    Tentacruel – DANGER! I´m not sure though. Set 4 has max defense, so Rock Blast won´t do much. You should definitely do some damage, because set 3 is Sashed. Chomp is a good check with Quake.
    Terrakion – Smash + Spear. You outspeed the Scarf one (240) after the Smash (244), Spear always KOs even through Sitrus. Sacred Sword having a higher base power than Slide means Smashing is safe.
    Throh – Smash + Spear, lives though. Isn´t as dangerous as Hariyama or Conkeldurr, but don´t underestimate it.
    Thundurus – DANGER! Instead of Bolt/Discharge/Volt Switch, sets 2 and 4 can Focus Blast, which the incoming Chomp doesn´t like. Sets 234 have a 12,5% chance to survive an Outrage. Set 1 can only Toxic against Chomp. Sometimes I boldly Smash, sometimes I switch.
    Togekiss – DANGER! Sets 134 use Thunder Wave. Set 2 does surprisingly much damage with ExtremeSpeed if Hustle. I do switch to Chomp and Outrage 2HKOs..well it doesn´t. Set 4 is nasty thanks to Sitrus and survives a Spear as well. Its Air Slash does 36% max to Chomp. This is a tough one. Sacrifice Cloy and hit with Spear against set 4, otherwise use Chomp.
    Tornadus – Smash + Spear. Don´t be surprised if Hurricane confuses you. Most of the time, it Focus Blasts, I think.
    Torterra – Smash + Spear.
    Toxicroak – Smash + Spear. Sludge Bomb poisons and sets 1 & 4 know Taunt and Sucker Punch. You should be able to set up. If not, you have Chomp.
    Typhlosion – Smash + Razor Shell / Rock Blast. You´ll outspeed the Scarf Eruption set after a Smash. Set 1 holds Passho, so it can survive Razor Shell. You should know the set after you Smash. Set 1 uses Thrower, Set 2 Inferno (if it hits Cloy falls) or Focus Blast, set 3 uses Eruption and set 4 uses Power Herb SolarBeam. If Cloy fails, Cune sets up on 234 easily, SunnyBeam set 1 could be troublesome. Chomp´s Quake OHKOs though.
    Tyranitar – DANGER! I switch to Chomp. With Sand Veil, there´s a good chance it avoids the Rock attack. Set 1 Thunder Waves and then either Flings or Stealth Rocks as it survives your Quake. Set 2 knows Ice Beam, but it obviously won´t use it on the switch, plus it´s hasty with 0 HP / 0 def which means Quake always OHKOs. You should OHKO set 3 as well, unless you roll absolutely minimum damage. Set 4 likes Superpower but it´s Sashed. What I do against set 4 is set up Cune after the atk drop. After a few CMs it will try to Dragon Tail you out, which does laughable damage and you should be always behind a Sub.
    Umbreon – Smash + Spear. You will need a couple of Spears. If for some reason Cloyster falls (confusion hax, for example), set up Cune.
    Unfezant – Smash + Spear. Tailwind, Sky Attack, Sky Attack and Powder/Toxic/Detect/Fly. Don´t be surprised if you flinch or miss. 2x Smash against the Tailwinder.
    Ursaring – DANGER! Obligatory normal type that can take a hit an dishes out pain as well. Actually the only set to look out for is set 4 because of QC Cross Chop. Maybe Spear this one from the get go or lose Cloyster if QC activates turn 2.
    Vanilluxe – Smash + Rock Blast. If anything goes wrong, Cune sets up on each set. Watch out for set 3 Sheer Cold, always hide behind a Sub.
    Vaporeon – WORST STALLWAR OF ALL! Yeah, you will face Vaporeon way too many times. Don´t try to be the hero with Cloy and always go to Cune and PP stall. You will have to go all the way to Struggle KO with 4 attack set 4. If the other sets have no more direct damaging moves, you can set up +6 Cloy. Facing Vappy at every point in a battle prolongs it horribly. Patience is key.
    Venusaur – Smash + Spear. Not sure if set 4 starts with Sludge Bomb, more like Seed. You should be able to set up. Watch out for Overgrow, mostly set 3 (this can also Sludge Bomb). Use Aerial Ace instead of Quake or Outrage. It´s a safe 2HKO but doesn´t activate Overgrow.
    Vespiquen – Smash + Spear.
    Victreebel – DANGER! Maybe I should´ve wrote this for Venu as well. ¾ Vicy sets speed tie with Cloy. It´s better to Spear it, you don´t like Sludge Bombs flying around.
    Vileplume – Similar to Vicy, Stun Spore, Teeter Dance, DT, Sludge Bomb, a lot of annoying stuff.
    Virizion – Smash + Spear, this one has got no priority attacks.
    Volcarona – DANGER! It´s Volca, after all. It can burn you with a Fire move or confuse you with Hurricane. Rock Blast doesn´t always hit. Quake doesn´t always 2HKO sets 3 and 4 (46-54%) so watch out.
    Wailord – Smash and see what set it is. Yes it´s a Water type and Cune handles all sets (well, with difficulties if they get too many Curses), but there´s still the little risk of switching into a Fissure (set 4). This one used Hyper Beam most of the time though, so Smash twice and Rock Blast KOs.
    Walrein – Smash + Rock Blast. Cune stalls and beats all sets though. Try to burn the Ice Ball set 2, just in case.
    Weavile – Smash + Rock Blast/Spear. They will almost always Fake Out turn 1. Two sets are Sashed, Spear has a good chance to KO if you get average damage rolls or a CH. Watch out for Taunt.
    Weezing – DANGER! I don´t like set 3 which knows Thunder and Sludge Bomb, so if they hit and status, Cloy falls. I use Chomp against set 3. Set 1 knows Haze and will use it against your Cune. Cune should be able to handle set 2, set 3 is rather difficult due to Thunder, but set 4 is set up bait (if WoW misses even Cloy sets up).
    Whiscash – Smash + Spear. Muddy Water lowers accuracy sometimes, I´ve lost Cloy against set 4 once. Cune sets up, but stay behind a Sub, because it knows Fissure.
    Yanmega – Smash + Spear. You could lose badly if they used Detect turn 2 with Speed Boost, but they never did that against me. Fortunately they tend to go for Bug Buzz/Giga Drain and not Air Slash.
    Zapdos – DANGER! It´s Zapdos, after all. I either Smash + Spear or recently go to Chomp and Outrage. They can´t do much to Chomp, but set 1 once got a CH Air Cutter which wasn´t very cool. Never forget set 2 the streak killer Powder/DT. Cune should stall that despite Charge Beam (it´s only 10 PP, 5 against Cune).
    Zebstrika – Chomp. They can´t really touch you, but two hold a Sash and one a Baloon, so act accordingly.
    Zoroark – DANGER! This can mess you up depending what illusion it does, mostly if you switch. Chomp beats it 1on1.
    [/size]
  10. ashez

    ashez

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    Epic work Peterko :)

    I'm really missing subwaying but as i've said before i've broken my DS :(. I borrow my brothers now and then though so i'll hopefully have something to post soon :)
  11. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    You really outdid yourself Peterko.

    That guide should be really helpful for other Cloyster users (possibly me?). Although the guide is somewhat focused on your team specifically (not everyone is going to use Scarfchomp and CMcune), the information in regards to what Cloyster should set up on and what it should run away from should prove invaluable. It's actually interesting to read how you approach leads and how it differs from my approach. For example, against Starmie set 4 (King's Rock bolt-beam) I would usually try my luck with a Shell Smash. I think my different approach comes down to the fact that I used Ferrothorn, who would laugh at Starmie and set up if Cloyster got haxxed (and if Cloyster survives Starmie it can just do its usual sweeping routine). You, on the other hand, don't really have that option (well you do but it's way riskier).

    On the other hand, it was my risky approach that probably stopped me from going far with my team (as well as the huge fighting weakness I had). Cloyster died a lot more than it needed to when I used it as I would just not care about the risks associated with Sludge Bomb and stuff lol.

    Either way, I really hope this guide will stop people bitching about Cloyster not being that great because it is a fantastic pokemon!

    Hmmm I really should get off my ass and do some more subway though. I bred the special Salamence (Timid, specially flawless with Dragon Pulse and Hydro Pump) I posted on the last page but I haven't EVed it yet. Believe it or not I'm too busy with a playthrough of Emerald because I want to teach myself 3rd gen RNG abuse. I'm not really sure why though because there isn't alot of stuff to get from it. I guess it would be nice to get Registeel and Latias finally, even if they will certainly end up with less than perfect IVs (I'm sure as hell not going to sit around for hours and hours just for a flawless frame to roll around). Double-Edge is also neat (but one-use IIRC, that sucks).
  12. LockDown

    LockDown

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    Man, what a list. I'm sure it will be helpful if my planned Cloyster/Scrafty/Starmie team ever goes anywhere, but the desert was being stupid and I couldn't find any careful female Scraggy even while using Synchronize yesterday. (Friday the 13th, obviously)
    I haven't tried RNGing before, but this is pushing my limits.
  13. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    Smeargle, Life orb Scizor and CM Latais. Smeargle basically accumlates sta boosts and passes it on to either Latias or Scizor. also i have found a webpage that might help you battle subway users alot http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/subway/ just look up the trainer you are versing and you can see what there pokemons moveset and items are. anyway i hope i helped some of you and lets try our hardest in this Haxy Subway!
  14. Skore

    Skore

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    Trying a variant of the Entei eruption team now, with a full grown Sharpedo instead of Carvanha with Dual Screens Latias and DD Scrafty in the back for clean up. Started this morning and already in my 40's so hopefully I'm on to a good streak.
  15. PeterT

    PeterT

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    I tried out a Follow Me strategy (in Doubles offcourse)

    Togekiss: Follow Me, Protect, Aura Sphere, Wish
    Moxie Krookodile: Earthquake, Rock Slide, Outrage, Crunch
    2 clean-up Pokés. (For the first try, I used Lucario and Hydreigon randomly choosen from my box)

    Togekiss has 252 HP/128 Def/128 Sp. Def with Bold Natures. Main strategy offcourse is to take al the hits while Krookodile KO's for Moxie boosts.
    Krookodile lacks a little bit of power at the start but Togekiss can take so much hits it's unbelievable. I love to use this guy.

    I got to approx. 62 wins on my first try (which I consider very nice). I lost due to a Surfing Starmie. I didn't check the list of trainers so instead of Crunching Starmie right away I EQ'ed which didn't even 2HKO.

    I'll try this out again with 2 different Pokés in the back. I'm thinking about Regenerator Tangrowth with Rage Power to replace Togekiss when he faints + a cleaner who resists Ice-moves.

    Trick Room teams are no problem at all because Follow me has +3 priority.
    Blizzard spammers are easily taken care of thanks to Rock Slide + Aura Sphere. Krookodile now has a Focus Sash but It only used it twice during the whole run. I'm thinking about trying a King's Rock to increase Rock Slide's flinching ratio. (Or Wide lens for accuracy)
    Other moves that hit both Pokés are the only thing to watch out for. Surf seemed the most dangerous until now.
  16. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    hey i am back! the Cloyster is awesome Perteko i am trying to make a team similar to yours that has a scarfer, Cloyster and a set up sweeper. so i am using Cloyster, Scrafty and Latias. i reached 35 for my first go because a luxray was being so haxy. i am giving it another go now and am on 9 the guide for your team also works well with any Cloyster user and i look foreward to hopefully post a high streak soon
  17. bluemon

    bluemon

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    peterko!

    i just noticed from reading the strategy guide that you had trouble with magnezone and metagross and the likes....


    how about hydro pump/surf on cloyster and a naive nature and a little more investment on sp. attack? it might solve all your problems..
  18. typhonandfafnir

    typhonandfafnir

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    @Peterko
    Metagross on at least one set will also use Magnet Rise. (Info for Cloyster-Garchomp-Suicune team list, followed by proof)
    First time trying the Tyranitar-Scarfchomp-Excadrill team first trainer sends out, guess who, Metagross. I say to myself, okay 1-2 earthquakes beats it. Turn one Metagross used Magnet Rise (here I just about threw my DS), Tyranitar used earthquake, miss. Metagross uses Meteor Mash, CH, SE Tyranitar fainted. Garchomp in. Garchomp used Stone Edge, 5% damage, Metagross used Agility. Metagross used Meteor Mash, 45% damage, Metagross's attack rose. Garchomp used Stone Edge, miss. Meta ko's with Meteor Mash. Excadrill in. Excadrill used Rock Slide, 3% damage, Meta used Agility, then after a while beats me with Meteor Mash. His Magnet Rise had faded, but by then he had used agility twice, then set it up again.
  19. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude more dogebird
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    @typhonandfafnir unlucky have you thought about getting fire fang on Garchomp? that might of helped but knowing the hax you went through Fire Fangs 95 accuracy would probally misss each tim lol
  20. Biosci

    Biosci !
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a VGC3 Winner

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    For the Super Doubles Subway

    A few weeks back I got a day to take a break from giving out vgc pokemon for that time being and to just have fun with playing for a change. I decided to take the common team that I used in this last wifi tourney with consisted out Hitmontop/Rotom-W leads with Scizor/Heatran in the back. Specifics of the team are:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG](Washing Machine)
    Rotom-W @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    Rotom-W is such a good Pokemon and with Hidden Power Ice in tandem with Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt it has amazing coverage to hit nearly any Pokemon the subway could throw at me. It was truly fantastic to use even though the subway would throw things like Power Herb Solarbeam Volcarona at me n___n(It survived this with 4 HP). Most games would end with a sweep from the combo of Hitmontop+Rotom-W with little to no switching required.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (M) @ Dark Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 220 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Fake Out
    - Mach Punch
    - Sucker Punch
    - Wide Guard

    Hitmontop makes everything work and helps me stop sand and other Earthquake/Rock Slide spam. Dark Gem Sucker Punch is great to deal damage vs all of those pesky Psychic and Ghost types who didn't carry a Focus Sash. Wide Guard could've been switched out for something else, but it did come in handy for saving Heatran and Scizor a few times from either Earthquake or Heat Wave.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Heat Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Scarf Heatran is neat little gem I've been toying with, probably the thing I liked using the most in this run of the Battle Subway and this last wifi tourney. He was great for quick kills when I needed them and Heatran is probably my favorite Scarf abuser due to Flash Fire abuse and the bulk he has(I do have a separate EV spread I've been toying around with to only outspeed certain threats and have some nice bulk as well) Not much to really say about it. He saved me a few times being able to outspeed faster threads that the team may face and get the KO.

    [​IMG]
    Scizor (M) @ Flight Gem
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite
    - Acrobatics
    - Protect

    Standard Scizor, he did work etc.



    Not the best looking team, but it did work for me getting me 105 wins in the subway this time around. Which I'm actually proud of since I've never made it that far in any battle facility since I learned to RNG >_> I was ambitious the next morning after staking those wins and lost it to a misplay/well timed Hydro Pump miss/Psycho Cut crit on Rotom-W to then guarantee gameover on Scizor and Heatran vs the opponents remaining Medicham and Volcarona after a Flash Fire boosted Heat Wave missed Medicham making it the end of my ambitious streak.

    I did try a few weeks before to get a good streak using a similar team using Bulky Thundurus over Rotom-W and Volcarona over Heatran on my car ride going to Kona and back. I managed to get 76 wins out of that iirc and lost due to 5-6 fully paralysis on Volcarona and Thundurus. All I can say is that I'm hooked on the subway. I'll try at this again some time during the summer. Thanks for reading I guess :) Will keep trying for a better record, when I do, you guys will find out xD
  21. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    @typhonandfafnir: I admit I don´t recall Metagross using Magnet Rise against me hmm.

    Metagross 1 Occa Berry 155 187 150 115 99 134 Meteor Mash Magnet Rise Zen Headbutt Agility
    Metagross 2 Occa Berry 168 176 150 149 110 81 Psychic Shadow Ball Meteor Mash Magnet Rise

    I think set 2 uses Psychic against Cloy and if it beats you in two turns, Chomp Quakes it...no wait Suicune sets up, so Magnet Rise doesn´t matter.

    I really don´t know if I met set 1, but Cloyster can take a hit (actually MM does 54-64dmg/126 HP) and do some damage. Also ZenButt does 48-57 to Cune.

    Meta was and always will be one of the biggest streak killers in the Tower/Frontier/Subway. Meteor Mash is an awful attack that the AI can afford to abuse because it doesn´t care about losses, only about ending your streak :/

    If I liked the thrill of praying that an attack hits the target, I´d gladly use Hydro Pump. Yep, Hydro Pump outdamages both Water attacks by far, it´s just that I already frown every time I have to use Razor Shell for the 5% miss chance (it happens quite a lot), not to mention Rock Blast.

    Hydro Pump is out of the question.

    I´m thankful for you post bluemon, because it actually made me do a RAZOR SHELL vs SURF analysis for Cloyster. Yes, I´m that crazy. For this, I ctrl+f where I considered Razor Shell in the guide in one way or another and compared its dmg output/reliability against those 27 Pokémon with Surf.

    Note that I´d use Naughty Cloyster with 6 spA EVs, because I´m too scared to lower the damage output of the main weapon that is Icicle Spear.

    CLOYSTER ANALYSIS

    RAZOR SHELL (161 x 75) vs SURF (106 x 95).

    my calcs that will probably confuse you (open)
    [size=-2]Aggron 220-200-232-200 112-80-80-112 37%/38%/41%/47% 57%/81%/99%/70% Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor < Surf
    Arcanine 100-100-100-100 100-90-100-161 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO after CC Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf
    Bastiodon 188-242-188-188 173-158-209-158 146-174/167 134-158/167 Razor >/</</< Surf
    Bisharp 167-120-120-120 81-90-90-90 141-166/172, 127-150/172, 127-150/140, 127-150/172 Razor < Surf Surf 3HKOs
    Blaziken 111-90-90-90 81-90-90-90 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf
    Bronzong 172-136-136-136 157-136-136-136 Razor > Surf
    Chandelure 110-110-110-121 110-110-110-142 Razor OHKO +2 Surf 81,25% OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Blast/Surf Razor < Surf
    Cobalion 163-149-149-149 124-92-92-92 a.42-51 b.46-55 a.46-55 b.63-75 Surd-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor < Surf
    Darmanitan 67-75-75-117 75-67-75-107 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf
    Durant 132-180-132-132 61-68-68-68 +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf(sash) Razor < Surf Surf OHKOs after Smash (set 4 is Sashed)
    Emboar 85-106-106-85 128-106-106-85 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf Razor min 216/217 after Curse, Surf min 180/217 no danger
    Entei 94-138-105-105 95-116-95-95 set 2 = 200-236 set 2 = 198-234 Blast-Blast/Surf-Surf-Surf Razor > Surf CM set 2 takes less from Surf but Rock Blast OHKOs
    Escavalier 125-125-125-125 125-112-125-125 55-66/177 46-55/177 Razor >= Surf Blast does 65-80/177
    Flareon 80-123-80-80 117-130-130-162 Razor OHKO +2 Surf min. 174/172 HP Spear-Surf-Surf-Spear Razor = Surf
    Hariyama 101-112-112-112 101-123-80-123 Razor >/>/</> Surf
    Klinklang 148-121-135-135 105-105-105-105 33-39% 40-49% Razor </=/</< Surf Surf doesn´t 2HKO/OHKO at +2
    Lucario 90-90-90-90 90-90-90-90 Razor OHKO 127-150/145 (18,75% OHKO) Spear-Spear-Spear-Spear Razor > Surf Spear does 125-150
    Magnezone 135-135-167-167 99-110-110-110 29-34% 29-34% 33-39% / 29-36% / 36-43% / 36-43% Razor < Surf Surf 3HKOs
    Metagross 150-150-150-150 99-110-131-156 46-55 58-69/52-63/43-52/37-45 Razor </</>/> Surf Surf + Quake KOs
    Ninetales 95-95-95-95 120-120-152-120 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Blast Razor = Surf
    Probopass 165-216-197-165 222-170-170-202 61%/46%/62%/75% 37%/50%/62%/50% Razor >/</=/> Surf
    Rapidash 90-81-90-90 90-100-100-100 Razor OHKO +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf
    Regirock 220-220-220-220 167-120-120-120 126-150/187 a.138-164 b.188-224/187 HP Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor < Surf
    Scizor 152-120-120-120 100-90-100-100 58-69 58-69 / 177 Razor = Surf
    Snorlax 117-117-117-128 130-130-130-162 Spear/Blast Razor > Surf
    Steelix 242-242-220-277 117-85-117-85 +2 Surf OHKO Surf-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor < Surf
    Typhlosion 98-98-98-98 94-94-105-105 139-165/153 50% 121-144/153 Blast-Surf-Surf-Surf Razor = Surf[/size]


    Results:

    Razor Shell < Surf (10/27): Surf is the better option against the following Pokémon: Aggron, Bastiodon, Bisharp, Chandelure, Cobalion, Durant, Klinklang, Magnezone, Regirock, Steelix
    Notes:
    - Surf 2HKOs Aggron, Razor doesn´t (at least not without a def. drop)
    - Razor outdamages Surf against Bastio set 1 and has a shot at OHKOing which is nonsense due to Sturdy, all the other sets boost their defense so Surf outdamages Razor
    - Surf does a bit more dmg (3HKO) to Bisharp, but Sharp is not such a big threat
    - Chande 4 has a shot at living through +2 Surf (18,75%) but Surf always hits and there´s no Flame Body risk – I´ve been using Blast more often than Razor against Chande anyway, but Surf is still the more reliable against set 4 despite 100 acc. x 81,25% OHKO chance being lower than 90 acc. x 100% OHKO chance, because it will always damage and not do zero damage like a missing Blast would. So I´d say Razor < Blast < Surf.
    - Surf does more dmg to Coba, but it doesn´t 2HKO so it will continue getting on my nerves
    - really glad about pesky Durant, +2 Surf OHKOs
    - Surf outdamages Razor against all Klinklang sets except set 2 where it does slightly less, but Surf´s overall more reliable, although it does NOT 2HKO (OHKO at +2)
    - Zone gets 3HKOed by Surf, which outdamages Razor Shell against each Zone set – doesn´t miraculously solve my Zone problem though, would be nice if it 2HKOed
    - awesome OHKO on Regirock sets 234 at +2, set 1 would probably Curse turn 1 and give me a chance at beating it even if it Drain Punches for some reason turn 2
    - solid OHKO on Sturdy-less Steelix after a Smash, so I don´t have to Razor/Spear into Curses

    Razor Shell = Surf (9/27): The attacks are somewhat comparable in dealing with the following Pokémon: Arcanine, Blaziken, Darmanitan, Emboar, Flareon, Ninetales, Rapidash, Scizor, Typhlosion
    Notes:
    - those are pretty much all Fire types – you still need to use Rock Blast against some of those just like with Razor, but you don´t have to worry about the 5% miss anymore (which is huge when going for a long streak)
    - both attacks 3HKO Scizor unboosted but Razor lowers defense so that Quake KOs, so maybe Razor >= Surf against Scizor

    Mixed results (2/27): Each attack is (slightly) better against different sets of the same Pokémon: Metagross, Probopass
    Notes:
    - Surf outdamages Razor against Meta 12, while the latter outdamages the former against Meta 34, both are nowhere near 2HKOing Meta anytime soon
    - Surf is better against Probo 14, Razor is better against set 2 and they´re equal against set 3 – Cloy generally isn´t suited for taking on Probo, that´s the job of Garchomp

    Razor Shell > Surf (6/27): Razor is the better option against the following Pokémon: Bronzong, Entei, Escavalier, Hariyama, Lucario, Snorlax
    Notes:
    - the notion of using Razor against Zong in the guide was an attempt to somehow deal with the GK set that is able to beat Suicune – both, actually all Cloyster´s attacks are jokes against Zong, Razor has at least the 50% chance to lower defense, after which Chomp 2HKOs with Outrage plus it outdamages Surf by 20%, that´s why it´s the better option here
    - Entei doesn´t matter much, because you have to Blast Sash set 1 anyway, set 2 has a shot at living through Razor as well (albeit lower chance to survive than against Surf), set 3 beats you (Scarf)/you switch turn 2, set 4 is KOed by both attacks
    - Escavalier was handled with a def drop followed by a Quake. Blast outdamages both Water attacks though. I think it was possible to KO with Razor+def drop+Blast, this one will be tougher with Surf, which does max 31%...on the other hand Cloy should get in 3 hits so Surf+Surf+Blast for the KO, unless it´s the QC variant. Positive aspect is Surf not activating Custap.
    - Lucario was the main (and probably only) reason I ran Razor over Surf – this was when in one of my earlier/test/learning runs I dmg calced this (Razor always OHKOs after a Smash). With Surf´s 18,75% OHKO chance, it´s probably better to go for Spear and its 27,58% CH chance plus the chance to roll high enough damage to KO without a CH.
    - I will have to watch out for Thick Fat Snorlax, Spear first and then Rock Blast/Spear depending on its ability. Rock Blast outdamages Spear/Razor, but I always prefer a hit for some damage rather than a miss for zero damage


    Oh yes, while working on this today I already managed to breed a Naughty Shellder. I´ll use Surf Cloyster in the near future. Also will probably reEV Chomp to 183-200-115-x-118-212* (Scarf*).

    I know Dive has been mentioned in this topic as an option for Cloyster´s Water attack of choice. Not sure how that would work and if giving the AI another turn wouldn´t be worse.

    EDIT: on topic of streaks, I´ve played Weavile-Terrakion-Suicune-Latios which averages at 13-14 minutes per 7 but lost at #116 to Eeevelution (Leafeon, Espeon, Glaceon, didn´t even get to see Umby)

    1. Kion protects, Vile beats up Espy for the KO, Leaf Blade into protect
    - foe Glace
    2. Glaceon detects, Leafeon QC Leaf Blade CH OHKO on Kion, Vile Beat Up no target
    - my Latios
    3. Leafeon detects, both my gang up on the Detect lol, Glaceon Blizzard Latios KO
    - my Cune
    4. Vile Punches Leaf, Leaf Scissors Vile for the KO, Cune Subs, Glace Signal Beams Sub
    5. double Detect, Scald into Detect
    6. Leaf Blade, Sub broke, Scald no burn, Blizzard, avoided
    7. Leaf Detect, Scald into Detect, Shadow Ball
    8. QC Leaf Blade, Scald KO, Signal Beam KO
    0-2
  22. Manveru123

    Manveru123

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
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    204
    I have finally convinced myself to give Scizor another, last chance. And well, it actually clicked! Apparently the only thing that was between "Scizor" and "own" was the lack of Substitute. With Sub (and a proper crippler lead) Scizor easily sets up on pretty much anything that's not a fire type, and thanks to priority move (and yet again, Sub) can easily take out both the crippled AI lead and the second poke. Basically the only thing that can stop him now is Heatran. I underestimated this poke, and quite possibly underestimated how powerful Sub is. Either way, I stand corrected.

    Just got above 100 wins with my Whimsi/Cune/Scizor team. Works so well at the moment that I should be able to get at least 200 wins, unless of course I get stopped by some evil hax. Wish me luck.
  23. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    Dive works fine in my limited experience if you wanted to stay with a physical water attack. You don't run the risk of missing like you do with Razor Shell so that's a positive, plus it has a stronger base power. After a Smash you're attacking first anyway, while the AI will tend to try to KO you with lowered defenses... so you dodge an attack turn 1 and dish out damage turn 2... essentially the same result as if you had attacked straight up. From what I've seen the AI doesn't punish you for using a 2 turn move like this the way a human player would.
  24. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    That's similar to what I ran (well I ran 12 sp att EVs but that's 1 only point difference). I've actually been curious as to whether there is some other better spread where you take some EVs from attack without any significant consequence and put them into attack.

    How many sp att EVs are required to guarantee 2HKO on Magnezone with Surf?

    I'm so glad that you're considering Naughty + Surf though. It would be nice for someone to actually do a practical comparison between Razor Shell and Surf (I never actually used Razor Shell because I was set on being different hehe).
  25. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    169 spA to always 2HKO sets 34.
    139 spA to always 2HKO set 2.
    126 spA to always 2HKO set 1.

    12 spA because you took away a stat point from Speed? Well, I´ve thought about that, but just looks at the speed tiers, there´s some things I´d like to have a shot at outspeeding, even if it´s a coinflip.

    122 Dewgong 2, Gyarados 1, Ludicolo 4, Skarmory 2, Victreebel 234
    121 Blaziken 12, Chandelure 1, Mamoswine 1, Scrafty 2

    I don´t feel like doing an Icicle Spear analysis right now lol - meaning how much Atk points can I take away but still score important KOs. Spear is still the main attack and should be as strong as possible.

    I´m not only considering Naughty Surf, but already started a streak with it...well actually it´s 14 battles and I used Smash Omastar to test how well it works in the same place as Cloy. Weak Armor Smash Oma with Surf-Beam-HP Rock (the one I used in doubles with Surf over Muddy Water). It does great damage but it´s much more difficult to set up/pull off a sweep than with Cloy. Also some stuff survived 366 spA Surfs with low red HP and that´s the earlier rounds with lower IVs ... Spear is 15% stronger plus multi-hit with an over 27% CH chance, I´d say broken but gladly say thank you instead :)

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