Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Truant Durant?

Anyone got a truant durant yet? Went to serebii, and found out that it was released in Rugged Mountain.

Don't know how the thing will turn out with entrainment and whether the AI will switch out if they got truant : )

If it does work, I think it should be MUCH easier to set up.

PS. I think it's only in BW2, not sure though.
 
Please Rate My Single Subway Team

all right, so i have two different teams that i've been using. one of which is a team where i am usually able to take out two enemies with gengar by attacking the first enemy and destiny bond on the second one. i've gotten to the 22nd round so far with this team. i only recently started using this team. i want to switch my magnezone for a more bulky special attacker, but i haven't been able to find a good one.

Gengar (rash) @ focus sash
Levitate
HP-124 (8 IVs)
ATK-70 (0 IVs)
DEF-76 (22 IVs)
SP ATK-190 (13 IVs)
SP DEF-76 (10 IVs)
SPD-162 (31 IVs)
EVs: SP ATK 252 SPD 252
Destiny Bond
Sludge Bomb
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast

Magnezone (mild) @ leftovers
Magnet Pull
HP-163 (4 IVs)
ATK- 88 (26 IVs)
Def-108 (2)
Sp Atk-198 (27)
Sp Def-97 (5)
Spd-78 (26)
EVs: Sp Atk 252 HP 252
Thunderbolt
Tri Attack
Flash Cannon
Volt Switch

Garchomp (Jolly) @ life orb
Sand Veil
HP-168 (1)
atk-182 (31)
def-113 (27)
sp atk-87 (24)
sp def-91 (2)
spd-166 (25)
EVs: atk 252 spd 252
Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Fang
unused

This next team is my sandstorm team. I've gotten to about the 33rd round with this team

Tyranitar (adamant) @ quick claw
Sand Stream
hp-167 (15)
atk-203 (29)
def-122 (15)
sp atk-91 (5)
sp def-108 (6)
spd-111 (28)
EVs: atk 252 spd 252
Crunch
Thunder Wave
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge

Lucario (rash) @ wise glasses
Steadfast
hp-139 (19)
atk-118 (6)
def-85 (20)
sp atk-180 (25)
sp def-76 (20)
spd-139 (26)
EVs: sp atk 252 spd 252
Vacuum Wave
Flash Cannon
Dark Pulse
Aura Sphere

Garchomp (Jolly) @ choice band
Sand Veil
HP-168 (1)
atk-182 (31)
def-113 (27)
sp atk-87 (24)
sp def-91 (2)
spd-166 (25)
EVs: atk 252 spd 252
Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Fang
unused

please give me criticisms and suggestions. i want to beat the super subway but i can't find the right team
 
Teach Garchomp Swords Dance (Life Orb) or Rock Slide/Stone Edge (Choice Band).
Quick Claw, Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave are kinda useless for your Tyranitar.
Scizor is always a good choice.
You can teach Lucario Nasty Plot.
 
Learn RNG abuse. That's the best advice I can give you. Not only will you have an easier time with flawless mons, but every trainer after the Subway Boss uses pokemon with all 31 IVs.

In terms of strategy: You want two fast, powerful sweepers that have perfect offensive AND defensive synergy with each other. That means that Pokemon 1 resists or is immune to all of Pokemon 2's type weaknesses and beats Pokemon that give Pokemon 2 trouble, and Pokemon 2 resists or is immune to all of Pokemon 1's type weaknesses and beats pokemon that give Pokemon 1 trouble. Ideally, one is a special attacker, and the other is a physical attacker. The third one is a support Pokemon that helps the other two (like a Suicune w/Scald/Icy Wind/Calm Mind/Filler that burns physical attackers and lowers speed of opponent, but try not to have too many type weaknesses). Suicune is usually great (other good moves are Rest, Substitute, maybe Ice Beam if you really want, but it needs Scald and CM), and Blissey is a good healer, but pick one that has defensive synergy with the other two. Don't use weather, 3v3 is too short to toy around with weather.

Lastly, look at this thread for all you need to know about how the Subway works: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102593
You need the list of Pokemon and trainers as a reference if you want to have a good streak. Another helpful link: http://www.serebii.net/blackwhite/subway/

tl;dr --> Your Pokemon aren't that great
 

breh

強いだね
So, if kuladiamond is right,

The battle tower just became a looooot easier. Essentially, get a scarfed Durant with Entrainment (nothing outspeeds it at all, conveniently enough; it beats terrakion by a single point!) and put protect on the rest of your Pokemon. Do subway trainers ever switch? If not, all that this really takes is pretty much any mon with quiver dance, especially volcarona. Protect/QD/Bug Buzz/Flamethrower seems to be a good option; not infallible, to say the least (priority can still crit) but quite strong nonetheless.
 
Yes Truant Durant seems to be released in Rugged Mountain. If the Subway trainers don´t start switiching with truant a full setup with every mon is nearly guaranted. Only first turn protect could fuck up that strategie.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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Fake Out could also wreck the strategy. Running Focus Sash and Protect on Durant could be a option to avoid this problem I guess (Protect on Fake Out, survive the loafing turn with Focus Sash and use Entrainment on the third turn). Running Sash would also leave you vulnerable to faster opponents though, and Taunt from Weavile or Aerodactyl is nasty.

I highly doubt that opponents would switch out after being given Truant. Slaking certainly never switches to avoid the loafing turn.

But yeah other people have posted about using a hacked Truant Darant in the past, just to see if it works, and apparently it works well. The main downside is that it would probably take ages to make a streak with, like almost all crippling strategies.
 

Havak

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I've done this 'strategy' before. It does work and is very cheap, it also has its flaws but I didn't lose yet. As long as you stick to your game plan and don't make poor decisions you're so unlikely to lose. I used Scarf Durant rather than Focus Sash, but either is fine. If you suspect Fake Out you can just switch to one of your other mons and then come back in. I ran Dragon Dance Haxorus with Protect, Outrage, and Lum Berry. Substitute is also a good idea to avoid things like Quick Claw and Ice Shard wrecking you later.

If you're up against something with a Fire-type move with Fake Out (however unlikely), you can simply switch to Haxorus on the Fake Out and avoid the AI using the Fire-type attack to switch in safely. You'll also out-speed everything to give them Truant. Druant can also be very useful later in the battle if you did screw up somehow, because it's Scarved it can easily revenge kill a lot of weakened Pokémon.

My other Pokémon of choice was Speed Boost Blaziken, which obviously helps defeat Steel-types that Haxorus may lose to, if you chose Substitute over Earthquake. I ran it with Focus Sash to always survive an attack, along with Swords Dance, Protect, Fire Punch, and Brick Break. If you're unlucky enough to lose Haxorus, then come up against a Chandelure or something, you can at least have Crunch on your Scarf Durant as well to try and defeat it with some luck.

Very boring strategy though I must add, like any set-up team. But it definitely works.
 
This is a team I'm currently working on. I've only gotten to 30 as my best streak with it, but just thought I'd throw it out there, since I don't remember seeing any kind of team like this.

Super Double Sun Team

Ninetails @ Life Orb
Drought - Timid
31/2/31/31/31/31
136HP/120SpA/252Spe
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Psyshock
- Sunny Day

I originally had him with Nasty Plot instead of Sunny Day, but was getting really annoyed at having to switch him out and back in to lose a turn when up against Hippowdon and TTar starters from the opponent. I also had Fire Gem, but was getting wrecked by Mirror Coat users like Swampert and Milotic. I'm still debating the Life Orb, but I'm not upset with it yet.

Infernape @ Focus Sash
Blaze - Naive
31/31/31/31/0/31
- Fake Out
- Heat Wave
- Close Combat
- Encore

Since he is part of the first set sent out, I use him to Fake Out one of the mons and blast the other using Ninetails. The Encore is good as a semi Taunt, and if I need to remove a low PP move it helps as well. Although I want to switch him out for a Chlorophyll Shifty because this team has a hard time with Chandelure.

Venasaur @ Leftovers
Modest - Chlorophyll
31/31/31/31/31/30
252SpA/252Spe/4HP
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder

I love this 'saur. Just like in online, Chlorophyll/Sleep Powder is pretty harsh. It allows me to shut down a trouble pokemon until I can simple focus fire him after all his team mates are down.

Darmanitan @ Choice Scarf
Sheer Force - Jolly
31/31/31/31/31/31
252Att/252Spe/4SpD
- Fire Blitz
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- U-Turn

Good ol' Darmanitan is my kamikazee who normally takes down two other mon with him. I originally had him using Life Orb for the Sheer Force/LO brutality, but he was getting outsped more than my liking. And I have only been upset twice with him being locked in. Once being locked into EQ and their final mon was Cryogonal and the other was Fire Blitz against a Flash Fire Chandelure.


Chandelure has destroyed so many of my streaks, but none of the guys I am using at the moment really have a good option against him. That is why I mentioned in my explination about Infernape that I have been thinking about switching him with Shifty because he is a beastly mon and can wreck Chandy. But I don't have access to pokecheck right now, so I'm working on catching one and breeding him. I haven't faced any legendary teams yet, but the ones I have faced before, I actually don't fear that much. Ninetails has OHKO so many mon, its crazy and if he can't, he normally survives a hit to finish them off.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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I'm still torn on whether I actually want to try Durant. I'm sure the strategy is incredible, but I play subway for fun first and foremost, and my own experiences with other crippling strategies tell me that this would be a very dull way to streak. I mean sure, you might get a long streak/top 10 position, but what's the point if you had a shit time while doing it? If I were to use it I'd probably try and use wierd pokemon that never get used on normal teams as sweepers rather than something like Suicune or Dragonite, just to make it a bit less boring.

I used Scarf Durant rather than Focus Sash, but either is fine. If you suspect Fake Out you can just switch to one of your other mons and then come back in.
Yeah you're probably right, though I'm not sure how that would work against Fake Out users with special attacks, like Dewgong and Ludicolo (and Mr. Mime and Jynx to a lesser extent). If you have things that can set up on these though I guess it's fine.

If you're up against something with a Fire-type move with Fake Out (however unlikely), you can simply switch to Haxorus on the Fake Out and avoid the AI using the Fire-type attack to switch in safely.
I wouldn't be surprised if Fire + Fake Out pokemon like Infernape (isn't he the only one?) just went straight for the fire move anyway. Opponent's tend to go for the kill immediately if possible. I guess switching out is safer though. It helps that Durant outspeeds Infernape. This is all theorymon though; I've never used this strategy before.
 

Level 51

Plasbad, for short!
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Are we planning to have a "Tradeback" list for the Subway for Pokemon with BW2 sets? Because the Subway becomes much, much easier with stuff like Tru-Ant.
 
Although I won't have access to it, this release of the long-anticipated Truant Durant is really interesting, as its Entrainment alone will be more effective (and way faster) than a 2 pkmn cripple session, provided one has Protect and is able to land the move on a non-switching opponent.

From how many battles of experience are you speaking, Havak? Don't see how Focus Sash would work reliably. Think of all the pkmn outspeeding Durant, capable of shutting it down completely (do consider secondary effects), effectively turning the game around to a Truant-less 2v3. Even if none of those 2 are complete cripple recipients, who typically don't do well on their own, that's not going to work every time.

Your note on switching against pkmn with Fake Out is rather vague, basically treating Durant as a safe switch-in to the entire Subway roster, which includes many pkmn capable of knocking out Durant in one hit or possibly incapacitate it with (secondary) status. Even if you avoid this (by saving Durant for a free switch-in, when/if the pkmn you switched in is knocked out), there are still many ways to lose; my first Ctrl+F on Fake Out found Medicham, whose 4th set packs Fake Out and Detect, in addition to having a ridiculously high Attack stat boosted by Life Orb. For the record, its use of Hi Jump Kick can't be reliably predicted for recoil misses, speaking from experience. Your note on tricking the opponent to not use Fire-type moves on the switch is not accurate, and as such will not work in the long run. The opponent regularly uses Fire-type moves against my Milotic, anticipating a Scizor switch-in, trust me.

If it seems like I'm going overboard, it's just that I'm treating the strategy as an attempt to reach 1000 and beyond. No doubt Truant Durant is effective, and will allow some players to get much longer streaks than they would otherwise have been able to with their invested effort, but I wonder how far it can go. Fake Out and Protect has already been mentioned, but there's also Tornadus 4 and Thundurus 4's Prankster Taunt, and the complete counter move that is Volt Switch (and U-turn). One must not forget the problematics of perfectly set up pkmn not being able to reliably sweep everything, every time, but this seems more possible with this strategy, as it allows more freedom by using only one crippler, which in many situations won't even go down in the process, meaning it can assist later on, as you mention.

I already mentioned that I won't be able to try this out, which I think is quite a gift if you know what I mean, but I'm doing so many other interesting pkmn things anyway. Also, with all the newly released tutor moves, Hidden Abilities, and (for me) previously un-RNG-able legendary pkmn, the facility fun is all fresh and new, to the point that I still don't see myself going for streaks at all. This is further reinforced by the checklisting routine I mentioned previously, which enables me to look right into the effectiveness of my potential strategies/teams, and figure that oh well, this one Subway pkmn can (with the right amount of misfortune on my side, however unlikely) single-handedly go to town on my team. As such, being unable to construct an unbeatable team, I don't see the point in trying to beat my previous streak (which literally takes weeks, even if done on the first try), so I just mess around trying to have fun instead, which is how I achieved said streak in the first place anyway. So yeah, hence the purpose of this thread and my '579 will suffice', don't be surprised if you never hear from me again.

Now, usually I don't do this, but I noticed the (complete) lack of (maximum Speed) Gliscor on the record lists, so I'll just share a build which has coverage beyond belief, since maybe someone who doesn't rock a pessimist checklist could take it real far:
Gliscor, Toxic Orb, Poison Heal
204 HP, 4 Atk, 4 Def, 44 SDef, 252 Spe, Jolly
176/116/146/--/101/161
Aerial Ace / Swords Dance / Substitute / Protect
Don't use anything else, ok? Toxic, Earthquake, or Facade will not work on this set, I've gone over this in minute detail. This was before Roost got compatible with Poison Heal, though, but why would you consider Roost? This darling is not a cripple recipient, and it works best as a lead, which is great because it can take out more than half the Subway pkmn (even when considering misfortune) without losing HP, provided it starts off with full PP, which it does when facing the first foe. I guess it goes without saying that a defensively strong Water-type works well with it, and they don't even have to fight over Leftovers. However, the fact that Cryogonal 3 packs Sheer Cold makes this pkmn and its potential teammates drop out of college and never go back. Good luck with finding anything that reliably counters Cryogonal 3 (preferably on the switch, like Sturdy Magnezone or Lum Berry Scizor) and fitting it in on the team. Also, Electivire 4 still hasn't returned to the underworld, so there's another hindrance, as always. On the plus side, it completely shuts down Tornadus 2, who on its own makes the future uncertain for almost every Subway Single Train team I come up with, but it's still Tornadus 1234 every time, so it's tough. This Gliscor is named Ganglion, I'll cook you a meal if you get the reference, and even if you don't.

Don't know why I did that piece, 'cause if you've ever wasted time reading one of my overwrought posts, you'll know that I've supposedly 'tried everything' (accessible) but only posted one team. I've done streaks in the range of 100 to 400 many times, and posting all those streaks and their teams is like the most OCD-inducing practice I can think of. Doctor says video games aren't meant for stress, and I couldn't agree more. With that, I also continue to avoid that nasty element of 'claiming' stuff, although that's not too bad on here. Still some crediting going on here and there, and all I can say is; if you know your shit, you probably don't need to be told what moves and stats are best for your pkmn, and finding that out is even half the fun, some say more. Of course, if you don't give that many fucks about the Subway and just want something quick and effective, I get the act of giving credit for even straightforward sets. And it's a bit more complicated when it comes to putting teams together, of course.

Most severe case I've seen yet was last month when I assessed Jumpman16's 630 team, and read this old post by Peterko where he said that he wouldn't be using that (my words) no-brainer cripple recipient Dragonite set, although he had devised it independently, just because it was posted by Jumpman16 who also happened to use it. What the hell? Some weird self-handicapping going on right there. As far as I know, Peterko works fucking hard on this (at least when he's not playing Diablo), and this is coming from a guy who's hit 9999 BP himself, so putting a strong pkmn like Dragonite (who he even had plans for) off limits just seems really unnecessary, and maybe quite a loss for this thread. As an example, drawing from major streaks, before Gastrodon and Cloyster were used to peak lists on here by R Inanimate and Peterko, respectively, I had been using those sets (well, my Pinball has Surf with Naughty nature, but Peterko used that too after revision, so I guess it applies), and I've never even thought of putting those pkmn aside for that reason, and I wouldn't do so even if I had never used them - why would I? If you're using a build that has been posted in this thread, you're probably just using your brain, as most sets are very logical, especially set-up and Choice item builds being almost objective. Like, when I worked with Gliscor looking at synergetic pkmn, I wanted a Tentacruel build that comes out on top after walling, so I created one, and yes, when I now search the listings, I see that it is identical (well, bar 4 EVs) to the one used by Chinese Dood - no wonder it is.

Are there really no news on the sequels' Subway roster at all besides the undeciphered lists posted on the previous page? Is TRE the only (capable) guy on the Internet who bothers to look into this? I'm not bitching at all, though, I can just see for myself when I access it on my Japanese copy, but I was certain this information would surface faster than I could even receive my game, because people have the game data on their computers or whatever. Maybe I'm not looking the right places for information, wouldn't be surprised. And yeah, I was curious so I listed those differences in TRE's lists and posted it on last page. Not my scene at all, not why I'm here, and useless in the future, but I figured it could be of use/save some time for a few people, and I had already written it down for myself anyway, so that's why it's there. Keep having fun everyone.

Also, saved the best for last, check out these mad streaks, this thread ain't got shit on this guy.
 
Battle Subway Super double Line: 119 (and still going)

Tornadus@ Flying Gem
nature: Jolly 4HP/252atk/252speed
Prankster
-Protect
-Taunt
-Tailwind
-Acrobatics


Hitmonlee @ Focus Sash
nature:adamant 4def/252atk/252speed
Limber
-Close Combat
-Sucker Punch
-Fake Out
-Wide Guard


Metagross @ Steel Gem
nature: adamant 4HP/252atk/252speed
Clear Body
-Protect
-Iron Head
-Ice Punch
-Earthquake


Dragonite @ Choice Band
nature: adamant 252atk/4def/4sp.def/248speed
Multiscale
-Outrage
-Fire punch
-Extremespeed
-Earthquake

This is a Tailwind-based team which is working pretty well. Tailwind is set only if necessary, or if tornadus is going to die and Tailwind seems the best solution. priority taunt helps so much against set-up foes and trick room; also protect lets me waste foe's moves (in particular electric ones) and, if played correctly, it allows hitmonlee to make a free attack. fake out is lovely, and limber helps against static pokes who I have always had trouble with in the past. the 120 base power stabbed close combat doesn't need any explanation, while wide guard is fantastic because it lets me stop the infamous blizzard / rock slide, which give tornadus so many problems. if hitmonlee is down to 1HP and I predict that he's going to die, I probably switch to metagross, who will take a resisted hit; if not, i simple attack with sucker punch or close combat before dying.

metagross and dragonite finish off foes with their strong attacks, in particular dragonite is almost always sent last and outrage is his main option, so other moves are only situational. metagross's moves have good coverage and it helps a lot; also he's so bulky :)

i'll post a proof soon.

this is the video of a close call, I won only because of luck but I misplayed a bit: 77-63331-39576

EDIT:


EDIT 2:
just lost against a biker (# 135), this is the video: 24-20774-16774
I didn't played very well against a metagross and a salamence, loosing lee on the first turn. then I misplayed with an ice punch on yache-mence and also got haxed just as much as needed to loose :(
 

Jumpman16

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Alright, it's been about a week since I decided to look into full-on crippling, and it's been enlightening, which was the point since I'm not going for records here. Using Whimsicott/Uxie/Dragonite, I've been able to obtain knowledge to answer some of the questions I asked about this kind of strategy, and assess the power of the team currently peaking the list. From what I've seen, I suppose that I strongly overestimated it, but why wouldn't I? If a set strategy can pull 630 wins in a row it has to be a very solid one, right? Using the team, I've found a lot of weaknesses that can effectively spoil the entire outfit, especially with the aid of a critical hit or other secondary effects. As such, I wouldn't be as comfortable using this team in the 300+s as I am with my 579 Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite team. The information below is gathered from a week of playing less than an hour a day, so if you see something false I'd really like it if you could inform me, because I feel like I must be 'misunderstanding' the team somehow when looking at how far Jumpman16 has taken it (or at least something very similar to it).

I guess the most straightforward aspect to assess is the power of a full health Dragonite at +6 Atk, +6 Spe, hiding behind a Substitute, since that scenario is what a flawless crippling session leads to. Power is here referring to Dragonite's ability to reliably knock out the 2 non-crippled remaining pkmn. I've found that it's much stronger than my previous Inner Focus version, and also more reliable than a slow sweeper such as Curse Ferrothorn, but is far from invincible. Dragonite loses its Substitute to anything that gets to move and is able to do 48 damage through Multiscale. Anything with priority gets to move, and so does any pkmn that isn't knocked out by +6 Atk Dragon Claw, whether due to Sturdy, Focus Sash, or simply HP/Def and typing. Evasion granted by anything from BrightPowder to Snow Cloak can also give the opportunity to move. Considering the many Subway pkmn meeting these 'requirements' one way or another, Dragonite is far from guaranteed to keep its Substitute for the next foe, even when taking into account the possibility of stalling PP. While having no Substitute endangers Dragonite, it can also be severely crippled when still behind one, thanks to Abilities like Flame Body, Static, and Effect Spore. While most of these threats need excessive luck (barring perhaps Gigalith 1 and 2) to take down Dragonite alone, they have a fair chance of doing so with the help from a third pkmn. So, even if one manages to get Dragonite perfectly set up in every single battle, there are still so many things that can go wrong, and as such I'm very surprised that Jumpman16 has reached 630 with that strategy, which has nothing to fall back on. I must be missing something.
Yeah, you're missing the part where even if something manages to break +6/+6 Dragonite's sub, the opponent still has to essentially knock out a pokemon capable of taking 99.9% of the attacks in the Subway thanks to Multiscale. First, the AI has to still be in possession of usable pokemon should Draggy be hacked out of a Sub. I kind of don't care if I get QC IBed by Slowbro if Draggy's already killed a Starmie and a Froslass, or if I get Focus Sashed by 2nd-poke Tentacruel if the last poke is a Swampert or a Feraligatr, because I win regardless. Second, I think you're grossly underestimating Multiscale here. Say that Froslass was Froslass4 and it hit with Blizzard after Focus Sashing me. This is what QC IB does to Dragonite:

252 Modest Slowbro Ice Beam
vs. 204/30 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 52.1% - 62.5%

I don't care. And if 2nd-poke Tentacruel actually Focus Sashes me:

252 Modest Tentacruel Sludge Bomb
vs. 204/30 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 16.1% - 19.3%

This doesn't even break my sub if it hasn't taken any/much damage. Basically, the AI needs some combination of Sash, Quick Claw, a Steel type, and Brightpowder/Lax Incense to affect +6/+6 Dragonite no less than twice. I couldn't even devise some scenario where QC Slowbro or Sash Tentacruel can even join forces against me because one's a set 2 poke and one's a set 3 one—most of the Sashes and QCes are scattered around. TO address your bit about typing and HP/Def EVs, pokes like Gigalith can be annoying, but only if they are exactly the second pokemon to come out. And even then, it has to be Gigalith 1 or 2 to even begin to worry me. And I will tell you—in all my battles with all the teams I've tried in the Subway (over a dozen, as I've noted before) I have no recollection of Gigalith ever using Rock Blast, not once. Not even just my Whimsy battles...I'm talking ever in the Subway, period. Set 1 and 2 pokes are rare by virtue of the trainers who use them, so you shouldn't really be surprised that I haven't run into Rock Blast Gigalith yet, just like you shouldn't be surprised I haven't run into the perfect storm of QC and Focus Sash and Brightpowder.

Even if I were to, I would bet that Gigalith1 would use Curse or even Bulldoze before using Rock Blast, and that Gigalith 2 would use literally any of its other moves (Iron Defense, Sandstorm, and Lock-On) before using Rock Blast. You know just as well as I do that the AI isn't the brightest and there are "threats" that just never end up being realized. And even when it looks like it's supposed to, like if I'm facing a Black Belt who uses Bastiodon and Aggron (Sturdy pokemon that you mentioned are threats)...I don't care. Rock moves just are the least threatening things for Dragonite to face from non QC-pokemon because even if it should find itself without a Sub, it will essentially resist Rock Slide and Stone Edge when it Roosts back to 100%, and do whatever it wants to assure itself the victory. Pokemon that you feel meet the HP/Def and typing requirements like Steelix...it takes 44-52% from +6 DC and will in variably Curse, making it a routine 3-4HKO. Metagross...is an idiot that tries to Trick me through Sub. Registeel...2HKOed and basically can't break my sub. Ferrothorn...Curses and dies. There's so little +6/+6 Draggy has to worry about that you may just have to play with it more yourself if you're still somehow not convinced even though you've used it to get close to 600 wins yourself, a record people questioned a lot more before you explained yourself. So if we're just talking about Dragonite in this part of the post (we are), how is it that you have so many reservations when you used Dragonite to get a streak almost as long as mine? You didn't lean so heavily on your Scizor/Miilotic duo to underestimate just how valuable and self-sufficient it is, did you?[/quote]

The crippling phase is also far from guaranteed to succeed. After using the team, I still don't understand why people would want to put their money on crippling strategies for records when U-turn, Volt Switch, and Prankster Taunt exist, although I didn't encounter the latter in the lead position. Recoilers also threaten this strategy, knocking themselves out almost before Dragonite has started dancing. Explosion is in the same vein, think Forretress 4. Since the team often depends on locking the foe into a move by Tricking a Choice Scarf, that item has to be held and as such has to be Tricked as to not lock one self in. Tricking something into a non-damaging move usually causes switching (what about the un-Tauntable Counter/Mirror Coat, will they switch?), which is deadly, so Whimsicott practically has to Taunt right before using Memento against a foe packing more than just attacking moves. This limits its diversity and ability to make use of Worry Seed. Another problem is Tricking into moves with 5-10 PP, as getting the foe to use Struggle is a nightmare for setting up, much worse than 'natural' recoil. The same goes for pkmn already locked into one move, like Latias 3 or Rampardos 3, which in turn makes it difficult for Uxie since it will stay locked. Klutz would be really useful here.
Well let's not beat around the bush here—sure you understand why people would want to put all their money on such crippling strategies. The #1 record was attained with a crippling strategy, so it has been proven to work. Volt Switch and U-turn are documented nuisances, and can be anticipated and played around the rare times they present themselves.

The rest of your reservations indicate that you have not yet played enough with your Whimsicott/Uxie/Dragonite team to know what I do. Forretress is setup bait that I Charm once then switch in Dragonite, whose Substitute cannot be broken by Explosion whenever Forry's done accomplishing nothing. The AI doesn't switch out of locked Counter/Mirror Coat, even if a fair number of pokemon had the moves. 5pp moves are even less of an issue than in DP since Draggy is a hell of a lot more comfortable with "just 3-6 turns of setup" than CM Latios or Drapion ever were. And what's this bit about having to Memento right after using Taunt and that limiting diversity and the ability to use Worry Seed? Since when is the goal to use as many of Whimsicott's moves as possible? As far as I'm concerned, if Whimsicott is using Taunt then Memento, the battle is going precisely the way I want it to.

Then there are Ground-types, which can't be slowed down unless one runs Cotton Spore on Whimsicott, which seems reasonable as Charm feels more like a luxury than a necessity when used (if someone disagrees or has examples against this, I'd like to know). That's another thing I don't really get; while Jumpman16's team has 2 users of Charm, its only way of lowering SAtk is Whimsicott's single-use Memento - this also makes Mesprit harder to get out of the way when it's done its job. Why Mesprit over Uxie, and why the physical bias? If the Ground-type is faster than Dragonite (without Tricked Choice Scarf), it can easily cause trouble. Think Excadrill flinching, critically hitting, running out of PP. Something I'm generally curious about is whether this thread's users of crippling strategies decide to keep their cripplers if possible, or let them go down intentionally. Skarmory's Whirlwind wouldn't be pleasant. Whimsicott and Uxie both have Memento, which saves me the trouble of letting them go down (Taunt duration and PP loss) and grants a free switch for Dragonite in addition, but that's different for other strategies posted here - do you keep your cripplers, or is the sweeper 'always' on its own? Also, Tricking and Thunder Waving takes 2 turns, which means that many pkmn (more with critical hit) can knock out Uxie in the process, often before paralyzing, leaving Dragonite with a -2 Atk, -2 SAtk, Choice Scarfed foe - not that crippled, can easily status, flinch, critically hit Dragonite. Many strong Ice-types also threaten the outfit, especially considering freeze, which thwarts the plans of this team just as much as any other (Scald-less) team, except more since it runs a set strategy, and only has one self-sufficient pkmn to fall back on; four times Ice-type weak Dragonite. Staying on Ice-types, what can this team really do to prepare Dragonite for Weavile 4? Even with -2 Atk and Choice Scarf on, it does threaten Dragonite with its Speed and high critical hit ratio Night Slash. Some pkmn are a threat even after a flawless crippling, such as Vanilluxe 2, or any pkmn running out of PP; Struggle is a major pain. In the event that full crippling isn't possible (like with Weavile 4), (repeated) critical hits can prevent Dragonite from setting up any day.
Excadrill is invariably tricked into Poison Jab since that's its strongest move on Whimsicott. In this case, getting Mesprit "out of the way when it's done its job" is done for me when Poison Jab poison Mesprit—an event I encourage by Charming before Flashing to increase the chances I don't have to switch Dragonite into a Poison Jab that may not miss. I've had to take a Poison Jab once or twice and I have been poisoned before, but...I didn't really care. Dragonite still got to +6/+6 with a Sub and swept because it's Dragonite and it kills a good 95% of the Subway without even looking when set up. Other Ground types have to use Rock Slide or something because Whimsicott resists their STAB, and I've already touched on how eager I am to set up on Rock Slide...having to maybe (Flash) take one naked since I can't paralyze Ground types is such a "shrug" that I'll take the incredibly minute risk given how much of the Subway my team dominates.

To answer your question about keeping cripplers...yes, I do hang on to Whimsy if I don't need to Memento. I Taunt and then instaswitch to Draggy on Shuckle4, Tauros4, Granbull4 and a few other pokemon that aren't off the very top of my head who can't do a thing to worry Dragonite when Taunt wears off. Ice types in general aren't locked into Ice Beam as often as you may think, it's usually Blizzard or some Water move or Signal Beam, which may not answer your question about why Mesprit over Uxie but should if you replace Uxie with Latias—as I've stated a few times in these threads, the reason I ever used Mesprit over its statistically superior moveset twin Latias is because Latias draws Ice and Dragon attacks that my set-up pokemon hate (Garchomp in Gen 4, Dragonite in Gen 5). Using Mesprit over Uxie on this team is as simple as Charm, and I've definitely sounded off on how perfect I think Trick/TW/Charm/Flash is as a moveset over half a dozen times (even once openly reserving the right to laugh at those of you who continue use inferior trick-scarf sets...Peterko knows what I'm talking about) so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Weavile4? A piece of cake when you think about it. It doesn't Taunt a pokemon it thinks it can OHKO with Ice Punch, so I can Charm regardless of the Fake Out threat. Whether or not it does is a mere difference between -2 and -4 Atk when Mesprit comes in. With what I know will be my last chance to Charm, I Taunt Weavile so it can't Taunt Mesprit. This doesn't always work out perfectly since Weavile needs three IPs to kill Whimsy, but I'm not dumb enough to Trick something not under the effects of my Taunt, so I Thunderwave straight up if Weavile isn't Taunted when Mesprit comes out. If it doesn't CH Mesprit with Night Slash, I'll have more than enough HP to reswitch (go to Draggy then back to Mesprit) to start Flashing, and I won't be worried about switching Draggy into an Ice Punch either.

If I even have to do this, though, it's because I Charmed Weavile more than once because it didn't 2HKO Whimsy, and therefore Night Slash won't do enough to keep Draggy out of Multiscale HP when it next comes in. Switching Mesprit into a paralyzed Ice Punch may still result in an untimely crit or freeze, but whatever, I'll take my chances. I'm going back in to Flash because I'm not locking it into Taunt, and I don't really care if it does Taunt Mesprit cause I'll get to break its sash and get Draggy in clean. It will opt to Ice Punch a 4x weak pokemon iinstead of Taunt, through -4 Atk, -3 accuracy and paralysis, but for reference: at -2 and with Draggy Roosting, Weavile can't break Draggy's Sub if it manages to hit with IP. At -4 on 100% HP Draggy 100% Sub, it does 21.9-26%, which probably won't break it.

At any rate, I certainly don't care if Weavile gets Tricked into Night Slash (as you've hypothesized) and avoids Paralysis (which it needs a CH in two turns to do), because Dragonite takes nothing from -2 or -4 Night Slash and can prioritize being behind a Sub while it gets up to speed. I hope you're starting to get the picture on how an otherwise formidable "threat" really isn't one at all even if most everything goes against me, and how this by extension applies to many of the other pokemon I have actually faced in my streak and in other ones with other crippling teams.

Other than that, I find the team to be not all that slow - the sweeping making up for the crippling. I don't think the sets of 7 take much longer than with my Scizor/Milotic/Dragonite on average, but then again, that team is kind of slow. Compared to Curse/Substitute Ferrothorn, this team has very fast playing speed, at least. I think it's less rewarding than my standard teams, though, which I talked about in my initial post on why I chose standard. And as I mentioned in my second post, the team is rude, preying on the AIs imperfections while taking the kid with GameShark aspect to a new level, by not only using Multiscale Dragonite, but also two pkmn not found in the Super Subway roster at all. Considering the risks above, I wouldn't want to use a team like this for making records, since I'd feel way worse when losing a long streak with this outfit than a standard one, since these (on the right days) make for fun/enjoyable battles. Worse because 'waste' of time, no fun had. So, now I've tried to use and assess a strategy I didn't devise myself, and that was interesting. I haven't been playing too much Subway since my record streak, as I'm not looking for an increase, and setting records is essentially what the Subway is all about. I'll maybe find something amusing to do, like trying old or new strategies and pkmn (Subway stall lives). The activity of devising strategies, pkmn sets, and succesfully using them (not necessarily talking records) is in itself the most enjoyable aspect of this facility, I think. That's also why it's great I've started reading into this thread a bit; it's nice when you see people using/have used stuff identical (or almost identical) to something you've used, because that means they (or the one they got it from, if any) have been through the same process as you, which is obviously cool in a unity sort of way. Still I'm not sure if I should correct people when they write stuff that is plain wrong, because they may be speaking in abstract terms, or may even be joking/emphasizing for effect. I guess it's best not to, and let them find out for themselves eventually, if they truly believe what they write. It may be due to lack of experience on the poster's part, but reading posts in this thread generally, I sometimes get the feeling that people on here don't play every turn like it's a minimum damage roll for them, and a maximum damage roll critical hit for the opponent, because surely that's what one would do after just a few hundred hours of Subway battling, right? Maybe the Subway would be a better measure of team strength if it used a scoring system of win/loss ratio that can't be abused by resetting. Timing of the (currently) decisive defeat would be of less importance. More strategies would be viable, especially those with that one fatal weakness, or even something general such as moves with accuracy below 100%. It would also cause less frustration/sadness, ultimately making the Subway more popular by removing its reputation as a sinister place where everything is against you (false perception derived from emotion). Speaking of ideas, it's beyond me that none of the online pkmn battling simulators I know of have some sort of facility tier, like Challenge Cup but with Frontier and/or Subway roster pkmn instead, trainer-bound or not.
I agree that the Subway should measure total win/loss, preferably by win percentage since it doesn't say much about skill to use a hyper offense team six hours a day every day for months to rack up wins at some 95% clip. I guess I'm glad you clarified what you meant by "rude", as I had interpreted it differently. I'm not sure why you're giving the AI any sympathy here by remarking that I'm using a broken one (by my own earlier admission) and two you can't even find on the Subway. You sound like one of the respondents to my youtube video of my 2,364th win, as he discredited me for having used an "uber" on my Team Drapula Mesprit/Drapion/Garchomp team, which was all the more amusing given that at the time I was still months from announcing that Garchomp was to be banned from standard OU play, meaning that the commenter was actually referring to Mesprit. Who cares if I'm using a legendary, lol. Didn't you say "setting records is essentially what the Subway is all about"?

More brow-furrowing is your implication of Whimsicott—it's not on the Super Subway very likely because of Game Freak's perception of its strength, like Smeargle and Jellicent, not because it's regarded as some super "kid with Gameshark" pokemon. So this part actually hurts your argument, assuming this last paragraph in some way was meant to call into question how "fun" it might be for me to use "rude" strategies, rude because the AI won't or because the pokemon I use are super standard and easy to use. If we want to look at actual strength to question how "rewarding" a streak should be, I could refer you to the latest OU usage statistics and ask you to tell me which two pokemon are currently #1 and #2, and how this reflects on your own personal observation of fun/enjoyment. (Interestingly enough, can you guess which pokemon, at #79, is the next most used in OU after Whimsicott? Fun indeed.)

And please don't wash your hands of exploiting the AI when in essentially the same breath you state that the Subway is about setting records. You're having a hard time not contradicting yourself with not only your words but your actions (using the two most overused pokemon in all of standard is many people's idea of "no fun had", if my time in this community is any authority), so I'll just advise you to remember that fun/enjoyment is incredibly subjective. I personally find a fair bit of both in reading and writing long posts about pokemon (even if I hardly do it with the same frequency I used to), where I'm fairly certain that most even within this Smogon community do not. Further, is the issue with the risks of using the team or simply that I'm using since "rude" team regardless? I'm not sure how much the latter matters if your actual point is one of reliability, as the rest of your post is about, and not a point (and a rather haughty one) of how cheap or fun the strategy is. And when you speak of "lack of experience on the poster's part", you similarly wax hypocritical given the several strategic features of my team about which you had (and may still have, after reading this post) reservations that I've detailed are mostly non-issues given my experiences with these kinds of teams. Just keep in mind that regardless of your stated familiarity with a given team or strategy or pokemon or idea of fun and enjoyment, you may not yet know enough about any of these things to be questions others' experiences like you know something they don't.
 
Oh, dear. I kept telling myself to stay away from forums because something like this could happen. Clearly, me on any forum is ultimately bound to cause vexation in others no matter my intentions, and the resulting discourse is never good for my health. I'll try to keep it short.

Me assessing that strategy was all about finding out if it was unbeatable. I chose yours because it was the one Single Train strategy most unlike everything I had tried previously, and because it is this thread's most proper attempt at an unbeatable team. You may have read my assessment as one big attempt at lowering the credibility of your team, which is very unfortunate. The way I read your answer, you agree on my conclusion that the team can be defeated, even if played right. As such, you could've answered my post with one word instead of going into detail about how far out my scenarios are, since if they can happen, that's enough. I would've much rather heard about Prankster Taunt, U-turn (you briefly mention this), and Effect Spore variants. Most of those scenarios assume perfect AI, so in the events where a threat is dealt with by stupid AI, like Rock Blast (and Prankster Taunt??), it's nice to get some information, but with all my Subway battles I just find that the AIs dumb decisions can't be reliably predicted at all. Your question about 'my' Dragonite illustrates the unfortunate interpretation pretty well, because surely I realize the value of Multiscale Dragonite and that it can go far on the Subway, but that's completely irrelevant when discussing 'invincibility', which was my intention, as I've mentioned.

What you interpret as 'beating around the bush' is not me being a little wanker feeling better for not using crippling strategies (more on this later), but is me addressing Prankster Taunt and U-turn, along with several other doubts I have about the invincibility of said strategies. And yes, I keep talking about invincibility, which may be considered a joke since 'no team is unbeatable', which in itself is probably the reason you misinterpreted the purpose of my post, but as I've mentioned in several posts in the aftermath of my record streak; if it's not unbeatable, I don't really see the point in me trying it for an increase. Forretress used Explosion on the first turn, and if you switch to Dragonite, could do so before any Dragon Dances leaving you in an undesirable position. 5 PP moves (or the likes) leave, as you acknowledge, Dragonite with less than maximum set up, and while this is often enough, it can lower the bar for aforementioned conditions required to stop Dragonite, with the pkmn it will no longer knock out in one hit. Your Excadrill example also illustrates how such a situation could arise. Don't get how you can call Weavile 4 a piece of cake and then proceed to give an example where it ends up being quite the nuisance. But why am I even writing this; you're not talking about invincibility.

Okay, I'm mainly upset about that last part, which is what I'm referring to in the beginning of this post. I'm not a native speaker of English, nor do I have much experience with online communication between strangers (especially forum-based), and I should've seen it coming that this would land me in trouble. The linguistic problem lies in the fact that my word of choice was 'rude' (which I'm unable to properly apply), and the fact that I even made such an ambiguous comment to a stranger lies in my lack of online/forum experience. The initial comment was made following a slight compliment to your person, and as such was meant to highlight the (not really) humoristic fact that cunningly crippling Subway pkmn is generally not something you expect to be a past time of a nice guy. The usage of the word in the post you're quoting is me writing online Subway diary, and is not directed at you or the credibility of your team. I talk about feeling like a kid with a GameShark, which was a problem I personally faced when I started using Multiscale on the Subway, and how this strategy really doesn't change that at all, just moving further in that direction. Yeah, your comment on Whimsicott, saying it hurts my 'argument' shows your perception of what I said. As if I'm somehow drawing a line to discredit your chosen strategy, while in fact I'm simply talking to myself about how I feel when using it. I guess this showcases one of the problems I have with online communication. Anyway, it's a fact that Whimsicott, regardless of its stats, can screw the Subway over big time in a way not possible for the roster AI itself, and that's what matters to my perspective. Again 'fun' for you, no, that's your business, I'm talking about my gaming experience, essentially me being unable to feel excited. Your comment on me using Scizor and Dragonite echoes my sentiments on Multiscale in the Subway. I do indeed find the team, and especially the Dragonite version, less rewarding than many other strategies. If you find your current record team more rewarding, that's very positive and you should be happy, but didn't you say it was boring in some earlier post? The particular line of strategy that led to the team I used for 579 was Scizor and friends, just trying out what does best, so I'm not surprised at all that I landed on often used pkmn - remember, I deliberately traded for a Multiscale Dragonite, since no access. Whimsicott and Mesprit are a lot better for Subway than player versus player, right? So is there really any point in looking at player versus player usage statistics?

Hm, washing hands, exploiting AI.. If one can prey on the AIs flawed decision-making to get ahead and make way for a positive experience, then that's dandy. I'm mainly concerned about staring at the (more or less) same battle scenario for hundreds of battles. Like I'm controlling the opponent, cracked the code by constructing an ingenious (better word than rude?) team, and then feel like I've conquered the Subway. Then I guess I'd move on. To me, the Subway is just where I have my main game fun after the game scenario is over, where it actually matters what you use, build pkmn and such, so I don't really desire breaking it or whatever, which is why it is unfortunate that you keep referring to my 'Subway is all about setting records', as that is actually a slight complain on the design of the Subway (compare to what I've just said). I'm well aware that it can't be helped that much though. Your last bit nails much of what I've commented on, fun/excitement being subjective - it's just me talking to myself, not at all trying to offend anyone or dictate how they should play. It's absurd to have to defend such basic principles of human kindness. I've already mentioned how my post was assessing the invincibility of your team, however ridiculous that is, and as such my points/reservations were and are perfectly legitimate. Even if we assume that my post wasn't meant to be an assessment of invincibility, and that it was littered with flawed logic and false perceptions, how do you even begin to get agitated by my comment on lack of experience, going as far as to call me a hypocrite? I was musing (which probably isn't the thing to do on an online forum) over whether I should help people who created strategies which power they overestimated. Stuff like people claiming that some well set up pkmn can take out everything when that's plain wrong, just found many examples of that and figured it's probably none of my business. In this case, lack of experience is a great thing from an enjoyment perspective, I'd say - I had fun finding out about things like that.

Your last line takes the cake. I didn't come here for schooling, and I don't think any of it is warranted. Basically, you're throwing logical ground principles my way, for something I don't at all see myself being guilty of; such as questioning others' fun or knowledge. It illustrates the way in which my posts are interpreted as coming from some teenage douche, but I guess I can thank myself for that, writing as a non-native speaker under a lackluster low post count user profile. Unless you give a fuck about which aspects of the Subway I find exciting, which you shouldn't, you're taking all kinds of weird offenses from my post. I already know that arguing (anonymously) over the Internet is like participating in the Paralympics, and I've mentioned how this does no good for my health, so this will definitely be my last post and read of this thread, outside of checking for roster data. I figure this will suit me better as well, as my Subway fun's been weird ever since I signed up. Guess I made the right decision back in November when I withdrew my submission of that 409 (406) streak. I envy those of you who can maintain your fun while doing this thing. I'll let my posts stay, but by all means, if it's not too much to ask for; remove me from your listings. Going here was never about getting credit or entering some sort of penis measurement contest, which I'm obviously interpreted as participating in, but was simply to share/archive just a little bit of all the time I'd spent on the Subway. Real talk, and this might seem phony as hell if you don't know about my approach to pkmn or intrinsic motivation in general; I don't care about streak length, it's just an annoying but very central aspect of the Subway I have to deal with. It should be obvious if you read this post for what it is, but projection can't be helped. Just posting this draft, should suffice, won't be revisiting anyway. Now, free as a bird.
 
ntrnsc mtvtn: I can honestly say that I think in this case your in the right. I too am only a infrequent poster my degree taking up the majority of my time, leaving little for dedicated time on Pokemon. As a result I have a fairly rubbish record of 48 which by the standards of this thread would mean that I am a handicapped otter lazily flailing at my DS.

Were I honest I find Jumpman's response to be quite unsportsman like or perhaps more relevant to Pokemon, unscholarly. Surely the essence of the battle subway is to test viable options and strive towards an invincible team that can handle the myriad of threats that the subway has to offer. This being the case, someone who would act with hostility to someone who questions the invincibility of a team is just immature, and then to sling more personal insults is just silly.

This thread benefits from the diversity that your records and insights bring, it needs more people like you who query other peoples records and then use that critism constructively in order to create a better team.
 
ntrnsc mtvtn: I can honestly say that I think in this case your in the right. I too am only a infrequent poster my degree taking up the majority of my time, leaving little for dedicated time on Pokemon. As a result I have a fairly rubbish record of 48 which by the standards of this thread would mean that I am a handicapped otter lazily flailing at my DS.

Were I honest I find Jumpman's response to be quite unsportsman like or perhaps more relevant to Pokemon unscholarly. Surely the essence of the battle subway is to test viable options and strive towards an invincible team that can handle the myriad of options that the subway has to offer. This being the case, someone who would act with hostility to someone who questions the invincibility of a team is just immature, and then to sling more personal insults is just silly.

This thread benefits from the diversity that your records and insights bring, it needs more people like you who query other peoples records and then use that critism constructively in order to create a better team.
I agree with this (even more of a lurker though). Each person's contribution should be valued, and if it differs with someone else's, then instead of one person being wrong, they have had different experiences, particularly in relation to subjective things like fun.
And there is definitely no need to become confrontational.

I hope that you return at least once, ntrnsc mtvtn. Please don't think everyone disagrees with you, and please don't remove the records of the acheivements that you've won.


EDIT: Also, forums are a flawed way of communicating, and it's good for both people to give each other leeway when responding.
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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Oh, dear. I kept telling myself to stay away from forums because something like this could happen. Clearly, me on any forum is ultimately bound to cause vexation in others no matter my intentions, and the resulting discourse is never good for my health. I'll try to keep it short.

Me assessing that strategy was all about finding out if it was unbeatable.
I chose yours because it was the one Single Train strategy most unlike everything I had tried previously, and because it is this thread's most proper attempt at an unbeatable team. You may have read my assessment as one big attempt at lowering the credibility of your team, which is very unfortunate. The way I read your answer, you agree on my conclusion that the team can be defeated, even if played right. As such, you could've answered my post with one word instead of going into detail about how far out my scenarios are, since if they can happen, that's enough.
If this is true, then you should indeed have stayed away from forums because it's obvious to anyone who has played a few hundred battles in the Subway that no team is unbeatable, especially compared to Gen 4. No one including myself has ever intimated that my team is unbeatable, so forgive me for assuming you weren't actually attempting to engage in some sort of discussion. If you genuinely expected someone to respond to a post that was 1,700 words with just one, then, again, perhaps you shouldn't be posting on forums. That's not how they operate, and that's especially not how I operate (no one who's familiar with these threads is at all surprised at my thorough response to your post).

I wasn't going to offer a sheepish, almost apologetic "no" to your question about my team's viability, one that would indicate that I've somehow backed into the #1 spot. Forgive me for giving you the benefit of the doubt of wanting your post to be responded to in kind if you genuinely expected a one word answer, but when explanation is expected, I will not disappoint. I can't say I'm surprised that (or if) you differ with this ideal, given that you seem to have expected the rest of us to accept your incredibly minimalist 579-streak post that was also your first on these forums, an oddity wildly exacerbated by your later posts demonstrating that you in fact are one of the most capable posters these threads have ever seen and not one who is unwilling or unable to explain him- or herself.

I would've much rather heard about Prankster Taunt, U-turn (you briefly mention this), and Effect Spore variants. Most of those scenarios assume perfect AI, so in the events where a threat is dealt with by stupid AI, like Rock Blast (and Prankster Taunt??), it's nice to get some information, but with all my Subway battles I just find that the AIs dumb decisions can't be reliably predicted at all. Your question about 'my' Dragonite illustrates the unfortunate interpretation pretty well, because surely I realize the value of Multiscale Dragonite and that it can go far on the Subway, but that's completely irrelevant when discussing 'invincibility', which was my intention, as I've mentioned.
Forgive me for not responding to the Prankster Taunt thing, I had roughly 1,680 other words in your post to give their due. If I haven't mentioned it already, yes Thundurus and Tornadus are too "stupid" to use Taunt on Whimsicott, using Volt Switch and Hurricane respectively. Volt Switch is almost as annoying for obvious reasons but not as bad as Taunt. Trainers who can use these two pokemon are rare, and only in one instance are guaranteed to use the sets in question (even though they're the otherwise popular set4), so I don't see them often, and even less as the lead.

Effect Spore is found on a whopping total of one pokemon in the Subway in Breloom, who needs to not have Poison Heal and also present itself as the second pokemon for me to care. If it leads and it does have Effect Spore, it will be dead to its Toxic Orb in about seven turns after Whimsy Taunts it (Tricking is pointless). Static and Flame Body can be annoying but can be played around if I really care, and as with Effect Spore only present a real issue on the second poke. I usually don't end up even caring about Flame Body because Dragonite can still mow down a shitton of pokes at an effective +2 behind a Sub. Again, forgive me for seeming to have skipped a few of your reservations, but literally nothing has changed on how a trickscarf team deals with generations-old abilities and I and others have indeed posted how to deal with them in this thread and its previous iterations.


What you interpret as 'beating around the bush' is not me being a little wanker feeling better for not using crippling strategies (more on this later), but is me addressing Prankster Taunt and U-turn, along with several other doubts I have about the invincibility of said strategies. And yes, I keep talking about invincibility, which may be considered a joke since 'no team is unbeatable', which in itself is probably the reason you misinterpreted the purpose of my post, but as I've mentioned in several posts in the aftermath of my record streak; if it's not unbeatable, I don't really see the point in me trying it for an increase.
And this is why I mentioned beating around the bush—it has nothing to do with you being a "little wanker" and everything to do with the fact that there could almost not be a more obvious reason to use the team if you or anyone is looking for an increase. It is the #1 team on the list. It is really that simple and I only hate to have to point this out again because I really, really, really don't want to be perceived as tooting my own horn. The record and the explanation behind the team speak for themselves for those looking to increase their own streaks, and it's a little annoying to even have to type this. Of course, you have your *own* reasons for not wanting to use the team, which is fine, but don't profess to speak for everyone else when you "think out loud" on a forum. If you were speaking for just yourself (which I doubt) then, with respect, I would ask you who cares whether or not you personally are going to use someone else's team. I don't think you were speaking just for yourself, which is why I responded the way I did.

Forretress used Explosion on the first turn, and if you switch to Dragonite, could do so before any Dragon Dances leaving you in an undesirable position. 5 PP moves (or the likes) leave, as you acknowledge, Dragonite with less than maximum set up, and while this is often enough, it can lower the bar for aforementioned conditions required to stop Dragonite, with the pkmn it will no longer knock out in one hit. Your Excadrill example also illustrates how such a situation could arise. Don't get how you can call Weavile 4 a piece of cake and then proceed to give an example where it ends up being quite the nuisance. But why am I even writing this; you're not talking about invincibility.
Forry does 29-34% to Whimsy with -2 Attack Explosion, meaning that I essentially trade my Sash for a 3-2 lead. Unless you think Focus Sash is integral to winning up 3-2 you should realize that I like my chances in this situation (which has happened a handful of times). A ton of the "second poke" would-be threats, for example, disappear when Draggy doesn't have to worry about statusing itself killing the second poke it faces cause the battle would be over. With regard to 5pp moves and the like, I will tell you right now that if I were assured +4 and a Sub at 100% HP with Dragonite with two mystery pokemon left to face, I would take it every time. Every single time and I am not kidding. You can come back at me with some pokemon beats pokemon with defensive spread or typing but I will stand by this given how much Subway I've played. And Weavile's a piece of cake because its actions don't alter my strategy—I've thought about it, come up with a viable way of beating it and proven that, like every other pokemon, it needs numerous instances of hax to threaten me, despite its seemingly worrisome on-paper type advantage over my team.

Okay, I'm mainly upset about that last part, which is what I'm referring to in the beginning of this post. I'm not a native speaker of English, nor do I have much experience with online communication between strangers (especially forum-based), and I should've seen it coming that this would land me in trouble. The linguistic problem lies in the fact that my word of choice was 'rude' (which I'm unable to properly apply), and the fact that I even made such an ambiguous comment to a stranger lies in my lack of online/forum experience. The initial comment was made following a slight compliment to your person, and as such was meant to highlight the (not really) humoristic fact that cunningly crippling Subway pkmn is generally not something you expect to be a past time of a nice guy. The usage of the word in the post you're quoting is me writing online Subway diary, and is not directed at you or the credibility of your team. I talk about feeling like a kid with a GameShark, which was a problem I personally faced when I started using Multiscale on the Subway, and how this strategy really doesn't change that at all, just moving further in that direction. Yeah, your comment on Whimsicott, saying it hurts my 'argument' shows your perception of what I said. As if I'm somehow drawing a line to discredit your chosen strategy, while in fact I'm simply talking to myself about how I feel when using it.
You *have* drawn that line though, numerous times. You've nitpicked nearly every single part of my team and discredited the strategy, citing, unprompted I might add, literally dozens of reservations you have with it. Before you think I've actually taken offense to these reservations I will note that I have posted in this thread that I actually *welcome* nitpicking of my teams. The only difference here is that you've voiced opinions to which I could have replied with one word: "scoreboard". I'm above that though and have actually striven to distance myself from the record (stating at least twice that it's the #1 team, not that it's "my" team), and, again, I actually like this kind of back-and-forth as I stated in my previous post.

So if you're really just musing aloud and using this thread as some sort of diary, I would ask you, after insisting that the question genuinely carries no malice: who asked you? Who asked you to use this thread as your diary? Who asked you what your opinion was about another team? Now those questions are going to look unfair no matter what so I will answer for you: "I did." We all did—this thread invites such musings and thoughts and is how these threads thrive. But you very, very literally asked for the responses I've issues thus far. Remember, a real diary can't write you back.

I guess this showcases one of the problems I have with online communication. Anyway, it's a fact that Whimsicott, regardless of its stats, can screw the Subway over big time in a way not possible for the roster AI itself, and that's what matters to my perspective. Again 'fun' for you, no, that's your business, I'm talking about my gaming experience, essentially me being unable to feel excited. Your comment on me using Scizor and Dragonite echoes my sentiments on Multiscale in the Subway. I do indeed find the team, and especially the Dragonite version, less rewarding than many other strategies. If you find your current record team more rewarding, that's very positive and you should be happy, but didn't you say it was boring in some earlier post? The particular line of strategy that led to the team I used for 579 was Scizor and friends, just trying out what does best, so I'm not surprised at all that I landed on often used pkmn - remember, I deliberately traded for a Multiscale Dragonite, since no access. Whimsicott and Mesprit are a lot better for Subway than player versus player, right? So is there really any point in looking at player versus player usage statistics?
I did say it was boring, yes. I'm not the one making unsolicited posts about others' teams being boring, though. And the point of referencing usage statistics was to highlight the fact that utility is incredibly relative and can't be used as a basis for Subway arguments. What difference does it make whatsoever that the AI can't use Whimsicott? They most likely would if it had about 15 more Base Attack and Special Attack—statistics that would in no way alter how I've used it. Why does it matter to you that the AI can't use it? It bothers me a lot more when I see the AI activate pinch berries that aren't available to us.

Hm, washing hands, exploiting AI.. If one can prey on the AIs flawed decision-making to get ahead and make way for a positive experience, then that's dandy. I'm mainly concerned about staring at the (more or less) same battle scenario for hundreds of battles. Like I'm controlling the opponent, cracked the code by constructing an ingenious (better word than rude?) team, and then feel like I've conquered the Subway. Then I guess I'd move on. To me, the Subway is just where I have my main game fun after the game scenario is over, where it actually matters what you use, build pkmn and such, so I don't really desire breaking it or whatever, which is why it is unfortunate that you keep referring to my 'Subway is all about setting records', as that is actually a slight complain on the design of the Subway (compare to what I've just said). I'm well aware that it can't be helped that much though. Your last bit nails much of what I've commented on, fun/excitement being subjective - it's just me talking to myself, not at all trying to offend anyone or dictate how they should play. It's absurd to have to defend such basic principles of human kindness. I've already mentioned how my post was assessing the invincibility of your team, however ridiculous that is, and as such my points/reservations were and are perfectly legitimate. Even if we assume that my post wasn't meant to be an assessment of invincibility, and that it was littered with flawed logic and false perceptions, how do you even begin to get agitated by my comment on lack of experience, going as far as to call me a hypocrite? I was musing (which probably isn't the thing to do on an online forum) over whether I should help people who created strategies which power they overestimated. Stuff like people claiming that some well set up pkmn can take out everything when that's plain wrong, just found many examples of that and figured it's probably none of my business. In this case, lack of experience is a great thing from an enjoyment perspective, I'd say - I had fun finding out about things like that.
I can state that you're waxing hypocritical (which is different from calling you a hypocrite) when you demonstrate a lack of experience using my team, asking so many reservation-laden questions about it that have either already been answered or easily put to rest here, yet you're offering to help people who have demonstrated a similar misestimation of strategies. When you say "I'm not sure if I should correct people when they write stuff that is plain wrong" you're expressing some air of superiority over some unnamed posters, when you yourself have no right to express such sentiment when your 1,700-word unsolicited nitpick of my own team/strategy was objectively and unequivocally full of "stuff that is just plain wrong". I'm going to requote something from your original post on this:

"So, even if one manages to get Dragonite perfectly set up in every single battle, there are still so many things that can go wrong, and as such I'm very surprised that Jumpman16 has reached 630 with that strategy, which has nothing to fall back on. I must be missing something."

Besides the fact that you'd have us believe that this was some diary-entry to which you didn't expect me to respond in kind, I went to great lengths to show you what you were indeed missing. Dragonite is really, really hard to kill (as in "igarvey: dragonite survives stab ch blizzards now" hard). The genies never use Taunt. Gigalith1 and 2 are rare and never use Rock Blast (and, now that I think about it, would need five hits to actually do anything with since it almost certainly takes two hits to break my Sub and a third to affect Multiscale). There simply aren't nearly as many combinations of Focus Sash and Brightpowder and Quick Claw as you may have thought given the distribution of those items through the four respective pokemon sets. I salivate when I see Excadrill4 because Poison Jab makes my job easier. Ice Pokemon hardly even use Ice moves on Mesprit to get locked into. And so on, and so on, and I'm not even including your follow-up reservations from your latest post.

Your last line takes the cake. I didn't come here for schooling, and I don't think any of it is warranted. Basically, you're throwing logical ground principles my way, for something I don't at all see myself being guilty of; such as questioning others' fun or knowledge. It illustrates the way in which my posts are interpreted as coming from some teenage douche, but I guess I can thank myself for that, writing as a non-native speaker under a lackluster low post count user profile. Unless you give a fuck about which aspects of the Subway I find exciting, which you shouldn't, you're taking all kinds of weird offenses from my post.
Let me repaste this then:

"So, even if one manages to get Dragonite perfectly set up in every single battle, there are still so many things that can go wrong, and as such I'm very surprised that Jumpman16 has reached 630 with that strategy"

You may not know me, but why don't you take a step back and consider why someone may find this "offensive" (your word). The #1 and #2 streaks in DPPT were Trick teams, and they both murdered the Tower for well over 2,000-win streaks. This Whimsy one is a slight variant. And since you said "Jumpman16" and not "someone", I think it's fair to state that it's Jumpman16 who has the #1 streak in both games, with the same strategy. I think it's also fair to say that no one who paid any attention to the last thread (Smogon's second-most popular of all time), or this one, or who knows much of anything about me would be "very surprised" that Jumpman16 has the Tower/Subway record again with a Trick team. It's fair to say that I know what I'm doing, so what were you attempting to gain by posting this comment?

I already know that arguing (anonymously) over the Internet is like participating in the Paralympics, and I've mentioned how this does no good for my health, so this will definitely be my last post and read of this thread, outside of checking for roster data. I figure this will suit me better as well, as my Subway fun's been weird ever since I signed up. Guess I made the right decision back in November when I withdrew my submission of that 409 (406) streak. I envy those of you who can maintain your fun while doing this thing. I'll let my posts stay, but by all means, if it's not too much to ask for; remove me from your listings. Going here was never about getting credit or entering some sort of penis measurement contest, which I'm obviously interpreted as participating in, but was simply to share/archive just a little bit of all the time I'd spent on the Subway. Real talk, and this might seem phony as hell if you don't know about my approach to pkmn or intrinsic motivation in general; I don't care about streak length, it's just an annoying but very central aspect of the Subway I have to deal with. It should be obvious if you read this post for what it is, but projection can't be helped. Just posting this draft, should suffice, won't be revisiting anyway. Now, free as a bird.
Streak length is unfortunately the only measure of "greatness" in this thread. If you think you're annoyed, imagine how Peterko feels right now, or how I felt when I was 2,100 battles behind him years ago. This isn't always fun endeavor, and as you noted, teambuilding and strategizing is much, much more fun. People like me "maintain our fun" by defending these things when they are challenged, lest we be relegated to accomplishing mere lucky, "very surprising" streaks by the uninitiated. I don't care one way or another if you post again (you have like seven posts, let's be real), because these threads have seen people like you come and go and the real enthusiasts stick around.
 
Its sad that the thread that inspired so many players by you Jumpman are now being pushed away by your aggression about this. Instead of being mature and simply explaining your set you decide to lunge into a full blown personal argument.