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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. feriokun

    feriokun

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    59
    THIS!

    There are only so many Pokemon. If you want to tweak and make your own team work, DO IT!
  2. NoCheese

    NoCheese

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    154
    Well, as my last few posts suggest, the allure of Truant Durant has proven too strong for me, and after a little theorymoning, I've put together a pretty successful streak. It's still active at 406, but after finishing the first set over 400, I'm at a good place to pause, write things up, and discuss potential improvements.

    My team:

    Durant @Choice Scarf
    Trait: Truant
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, - Spa)
    -Entrainment
    -X-Scissor
    -Iron Head
    -Protect

    Stats: 165/129/132/61/69/177 (265 speed with Scarf)
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
    EVs: 252/0/0/0/4/252


    Cloyster @Focus Sash
    Trait: Skill Link
    Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)

    -Protect
    -Shell Smash
    -Icicle Spear
    -Rock Blast

    Stats: 126/161/200/81/65/122
    IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
    EVs: 4/252/0/0/0/252


    Garchomp @Lum Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -Spa)
    -Protect
    -Swords Dance
    -Outrage
    -Earthquake

    Stats: 184/182/115/90/105/169
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
    EVs: 4/252/0/0/0/252

    The basic idea is obvious. Entrainment on the first turn to reset the opponent's lead poke's ability to Truant. Switch to Cloyster while the opponent loafs around, alternate Protect and Shell Smash to get Cloyster to +6 in Attack and Speed, and then sweep. Obviously every match doesn't play out quite so simply, but this is the goal.

    Durant leads things off, and Entrainment is obviously at the center of the strategy. At 265 speed with a Choice Scarf, Durant outspeeds the entire Subway (barring priority moves), and so can usually fire off a first turn Entrainment before other pokes have the chance to OHKO it with a powerful special or Fire move, flinch it, status it, or otherwise interfere. Once the opponent is successfully Entrained, Durant can switch out and let Cloyster (or occasionally Garchomp) set up.

    Protect seems suboptimal on a poke that can only move every other turn, but it is there for when the opponent's lead either has the ability Trace or is already Truant (e.g. is a Slaking). Without Protect, I have to let the opponent get a free hit on Durant before switching out so that my sweeper comes in unscathed. With Protect, I Protect on the first turn, and then switch out on the second, letting my sweeper freely set up while keeping Durant unharmed. X-Scissor and Iron Head are only used rarely, but once in a while the opponent's last poke will manage to absorb a hit from my last sweeper and kill it, but will be at low health. The attacking STABs allow Durant to finish off such a weakened third poke.

    Because of how easy it typically is to set up and sweep after an Entrainment, a natural question is how this team deals with lead pokes that can either prevent or neutralize Durant's Entrainment. As noted earlier, non-priority attacks or defensive moves like Substitute don't worry me, because Durant is fast enough to outrun them all. Priority moves, and moves that allow the opponent to switch pokemon after the Entrainment, on the other hand, are a concern, with the biggest suspects being Fake Out, Protect/Detect, U-turn, and Volt Switch.

    With a Fake Out lead, I consider how hard the other moves hit. Given Durant's good physical defense and very strong typing combination, certain Fake Outers can't really hurt Durant. In such a situation, I just stay in, taking the Fake Out on turn 1, absorbing whatever weak attack follows, and Entraining successfully on turn 3. Where the opposing Fake Outer can beat Durant, such as an Infernape or Mienshao, I immediately switch to Garchomp, which takes the Fake Out and does a little damage back with Rough Skin. At that point, Garchomp can sometimes set up or at least KO the lead on its own, but it will often just get knocked out. This is fine, however, since I can then bring Durant back in, safely use Entrainment, and set up Cloyster.

    Protect and Detect are more interesting, since the AI can use these moves multiple times, potentially shutting down multiple Entrainment attempts, but tends to use them rather randomly. If the opponent can't really hurt Durant too much, I'll often stay in, and usually get the chance to Entrain eventually, given the AI's loose wiring. Sometimes, for example the AI will protect on both the first and second turns, making a third turn protect extremely unlikely and likely to fail even if used. Note also that if the opponent thinks it can get a KO by attacking, it will almost always use the KO attack rather than Protect. Accordingly, if the opponent Protects on turn 1 and does between 50% and 100% to Durant on turn 2, I can almost always resolve Entrainment on turn 3. If I'm in doubt about how to handle a Protecter, I'll usually just switch to Garchomp, who is my most "disposable" poke, and can often set up a Swords Dance unaided and then KO the Protect user, leaving Durant around to Entrain later, and keeping Cloyster's Focus Sash intact.

    U-turn looks like a big threat, but in fact is not typically an issue. The reason is that it's a physical move that Durant resists. The AI will almost never attack Durant with it on the first turn because there's usually almost always another move that hits harder, and once the foe is Entrained, later uses of U-turn won't matter, since Protect used by a sweeper while it sets up not only prevents the damage, it also stops the U-turn switch.

    Volt Switch is much more threatening. It's a special move, and so hits Durant's much weaker Special Defense, and Durant does not resist Electric attacks, so the AI will often lead with it. A lead Volt Switch from a hard hitting special attacker can do a double whammy on me, both negating my Entrainment and OHKOing Durant, denying me the chance to Entrain another poke and set up later on. When facing a Volt Switcher, I immediately switch to Garchomp. Garchomp typically is very strong against Volt Switchers, switching in for free due to its immunity and then setting up or unleashing a devastating STAB Earthquake. Volt Switch is such a threat that if I ever replace Garchomp as my secondary sweeper, I can't see myself using a poke that doesn't likewise handle Volt Switchers. Volt Switch Magnet Pull Magnezone deserves special mention. Naturally, I can't switch out of it, and so am likely lose my Durant either to the Volt Switch or the alternative choice of Thunderbolt. However, I'm usually still fine, since Garchomp can still come in and dominate, and won't even have to worry about Sturdy messing with its OHKO. Still, a lead Volt Switching Magnezone is one of the larger threats to this team, and if the opponent has the wrong partners for it, I could be in trouble.

    Cloyster is my primary sweeper, and I've been very pleased with its effectiveness. Since I can use Protect to set up unscathed against a Truant opponent, Focus Sash gives Cloyster an "extra life," making sweeping much easier. Icicle Spear hits ridiculously hard at +6, OHKOing even many things that resist it, and its multi-hit nature means that opposing Sturdy and Focused Sashed pokes are not a problem. Also nice is that nothing is immune to Ice attacks.

    Rock Blast is used much less often due to the risk of missing with its 90% accuracy, but is essential against certain bulky Waters and especially Water/Ices. Icicle Spear is walled pretty badly by Thick Fat Dewgong, for example! This miss chance is a real pain, so it's important not to use Rock Blast when it can be avoided. For example, most opposing fire types (save Heatran and Bulky Quiver Dance Volcarona) are frail enough that not very effective Icicle Spear still OHKOs them, and so it is foolish to turn to super effective Rock Blast. Likewise, especially on the opponent's final poke, it is often better to go for a sure 2HKO from Icicle Spear than go for the OHKO from Rock Blast. Sure, the chance of missing two Rock Blasts in a row is only 1%, but part of building long streaks is minimizing the chance for even highly unlikely hax to wreck you, so it's important to play around it where you can. Also remember that where Icicle Spear fails to OHKO, it usually still comes pretty close. This means that on a final poke, even if Cloyster is KOed after using Icicle Spear, the opponent is typically low enough for Durant to finish off. Similarly with five hits, a critical hit on just one of them is often enough to turn a 2HKO back into a OHKO, meaning that in such a situation, Icicle Spear in fact has a 27.58% percent chance of OHKOing.

    Shell Smash is obviously key for letting me boost both Speed and Attack. That it lowers defenses is unfortunate, but honestly since Cloyster OHKOs most things and carries a Focus Sash to allow it to tank one hit, the reduced defenses are not typically a big issue. Also note that being able to fully set up with just three uses of the move, rather than six for other Speed/Attack (or Special Attack) boosters like Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance, is in fact a pretty big deal. First is just the time issue. Setting up is a little boring and provides opportunities for misclicks, so being able to set up more quickly both makes matches go faster and helps limit the chance for misclicks. Second, however, is that this accelerated set-up allows me to get more boosts in when the opponent's Entrained lead is self destructive. If the opponent is holding Toxic Orb or Flame Orb, or has Hi Jump Kick or Explosion in its move list, I've only got a limited number of turns to set up before the Entrained poke dies from its own item or moves. Shell Smash lets me get more fully set up, making Cloyster much better able to sweep than it would be were it stuck with a slower boosting move.

    A few other things should be noted about using Cloyster. First is that when setting up against a Truant opponent, you should get in the habit of Protecting the first turn after you get to +6/+6, rather than attacking immediately. No reason to risk some sort of unexpected miss or the like when you can safely wait to attack on the loafing around turn. There are a few exceptions, particularly when the opponent may use Stealth Rock or the like, but attacking the opponent's lead only on the loafing around turn is a safe default and should be your choice most of the time. Second is that Cloyster's Ice typing is very handy for making it immune to Hail. Since any residual damage neutralizes my Focus Sash, immunity to Hail is extremely helpful. Third is that you shouldn't forget about Protect when facing your opponent's second and third pokes. Though Protect's main purpose is of course to allow free set up while your opponent's lead can only attack every other turn, Protect can also be used to protect your Focus Sash against a second or third poke with Fake out, or survive a Custap Berry turn in the rare situation where the opponent survives your first attack and would be able to go first on the second turn thanks to the Berry. Fourth is to make sure to wait out a lead poke's Trick Room while you set up, even if this means using Shell Smash a fourth time. You do NOT want to be going second against your opponent's second poke.

    Garchomp, as noted earlier, is on the team more to get around the things that disrupt the Durant-Cloyster combo than to sweep. Still, it's a very durable and hard hitting pokemon, and so can still often set up and sweep on its own. Because it is immune to sandstorm, I often bring it in instead of Cloyster when the opponent's Entrained lead has the move Sand Storm, so that Garchomp can set up and stall the Sand Storm out before KOing the lead, giving Cloyster the opportunity to come in later under clear skies and keep its Focus Sash intact. Naturally, this doesn't help against permanent Sandstorms, so against Hippowdons and Tyranitars, I typically set up Cloyster immediately, particularly since they are typically on teams heavy in Sturdy and Sashed pokes, where Garchomp won't be able to OHKO but Cloyster will.

    Note that Garchomp has his Dream World ability of Rough Skin. Though the chance of a free turn with Sand Veil is usually much better in battles against another human, in the Subway, Rough Skin is much stronger. Many times during my 336 win Garchomp/Suicune/Ferronthorn streak, I wished that Rough Skin Garchomp was available, and so am very happy to have it now. Rough Skin breaks a lot of Focus Sashes, and turns a number of 2HKOs into OHKOs for Garchomp. Switching into a Fake Out, for example, Rough Skin often gets the opponent just low enough that even an unboosted Earthquake or Outrage can OHKO. This can be remarkably helpful sometimes. As far as Chomp's equipped item, Lum Berry is very nice, allowing me to recover from post-Outrage confusion or get a free Swords Dance off when the opponent tries to status Garchomp.

    Though very strong, this team of course has its vulnerabilities. Powerful Volt Switchers can prevent me from being able to set up on a Truant opponent. Bulky Waters, Ices, and Steels can often survive an Icicle Spear (or get missed by Rock Blast) and cause problems with their counter attacks, particularly since, with its defenses reduced, almost anything will 2HKO a fully set-up Cloyster. If the second Poke can survive the initial attack and then Trick Room, I'm on the back foot, though judicious use of Protect can help me stall it out. Priority moves always outrun Cloyster, but thankfully, there aren't too many priority users in the Subway, so it is rare to come up against opponents whose second and third pokes both have priority moves (besides Fake Out, which can be stopped with Protect). Speed Boost Yanmega can also cause big trouble if it leads with Detect, particularly if it gets flinches on its Air Slashes. Bad luck against Bright Power or Lax Incense can likewise cause problems, though so far, I've been lucky enough not to miss twice in a row against anything with these items. Garchomp isn't able to boost his speed either, so if Cloyster gets KOed, there are a number of things that can outspeed and OHKO with an ice attack (or a crit). One final problem I've once encountered was a lead Forretress that used Toxic Spikes on the Entrainment turn, making it unwise to switch in Cloyster and try to set up through all the poison damage. I had to go to Chomp and let its berry neutralize the poison, but this left me very vulnerable to a number of potential second or third enemy pokemon. Thankfully, my luck held and I survived. I lost my initial streak with this team somewhere in the 150s to ill advised use of Rock Blast and a little bad luck on my opponent's third poke, but so far have avoided any fatal errors on this, my second time through with the team.

    I'm sure there are ways to improve this squad. The most obvious would be to reduce Durant's speed. Since the fastest opposing poke in the subway has 258 speed with a Choice Scarf, I could safely move some speed EVs into Special Defense and still outrun the entire subway with Durant.

    I'm also torn as to the possibility of using another poke instead of Garchomp. Chomp's inability to boost its speed is really frustrating given the number of very fast pokes that can show up on opponents' teams, so I'm occasionally tempted to replace it with something that can speed itself up. However, as noted earlier, a key consideration for my team is being able to handle Volt Switchers, and there are very few pokes that can resist Electric Attacks and can boost their Speed and the appropriate Attack stat with a single move. The best option is Lilligant, who can boost with Quiver Dance and use his grass typing to sponge Electric Attacks. As a secondary sweeper, a Lilligant with a Protect/Substitute/Quiver Dance/?Attack set can boost 3 stats, claim an "extra life" with Substitute, and attack away. I see two possible attack/item combinations. Petal Dance/Lum Berry lets me do a nice Garchomp Outrage impersonation, hitting very hard while having the berry to undo the self-inflicted confusion or sponge opposing status. Giga Drain/Leftovers lets me take full advantage of the Special Defense boosts from Quiver Dance, giving me a ton of durability and even, should it prove necessary, letting me play the stall game of alternating Substitute and Protect while recovering with Leftovers.

    Unfortunately, Lilligant's base stats are a lot weaker than Garchomp's, it can't freely switch into Thunder Wave like Chomp can, and it still takes some damage when switching into other Electric attacks. Moreover, given the poor coverage of Grass-type attacks, Lilligant, even if fully set up, is going to get far fewer OHKOs than Chomp does. Accordingly, for now, I'm sticking with Chomp as my secondary sweeper.

    One last possibility worth noting is actually moving Lilligant into the primary sweeper role. The main allure of this is being able to claim not just one, but two "extra lives." Protect/Substitute/Quiver Dance/Giga Drain Lilligant, equipped with a Focus Sash, on a Truant opponent, can set up to +6/+6/+6, put up a Sub, and reactivate its Focus Sash by healing to full with Giga Drain. It hits much less hard than does Cloyster and doesn't break Sashes automatically, so is more likely to need these extra lives to sweep, but it's certainly worth considering, particularly since with Special Defense at +6, many special attacks are going to fail to break the Sub. One thing to remember, however, is that this set is completely walled by Sap Sipper Bouffalant, which would either need to be stalled out or reliably handled by the third poke.

    This has turned into quite a long post, but I hope it's helpful. I'll post again when my streak is ended, or perhaps earlier if I pick up some new insights on the team.

    Proof Photo:
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/img0488bb.jpg/
  3. abszs

    abszs

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Messages:
    6
    Hey well I finally managed to beat the super double train subway master, so I continued battling which got me all the way to a 157 win streak which is quite a bit better than my super single streak (123 wins) my team was as follows :

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar @ Air Balloon
    Sand Stream
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Protect
    Earthquake
    Rock Slide
    Crunch

    [​IMG]

    Excadrill @ Life Orb
    Sand Rush
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Swords Dance
    Earthquake
    Rock Slide
    X-Scissor

    [​IMG]

    Latios @ Choice Specs
    Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Draco Meteor
    Psychic
    Thunderbolt
    Dragon Pulse

    [​IMG]

    Garchomp@ Yache Berry
    Sand Veil
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Swords Dance
    Outrage
    Earthquake
    Fire Fang

    I finally lost to yet another trick room team the crunch from my tyranitar didn't OHKO Musharna, so it used trick room and the rest followed on from there with a Gigalith and Cofagrigus taking out my team.

    [​IMG]
  4. Patolegend!

    Patolegend!

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    35
    Would Britscor not be a possible option in this case? It has reasonable base speed, great bulk, agility, and great coverage with acrobatics and EQ. I'm basing this on OU knowledge mind, and I don't know how it would fare in the subway. It doesn't offer the bonus of rough skin, but sand veil can be just as handy.
  5. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    Gratz on that amazing Heatran Hall, Jumpman! It was a long but interesting read!

    @NoCheese: Just in case you might have forgotten, Lilligant has Own Tempo, meaning, it doesn't need the Lum for Petal Dance. Gratz on your streak so far too! You know what ground type can Dragon Dance? Whiscash! :D (I haven't tried it out, but from what I remember from theorymonning, it wasn't very impressive.)

    Now, on a more serious note, I haven't tried QD Lilligant myself, but I've tried plenty of QD mono-attack Volcarona (QD / Sub / Bug Buzz / Rest). From my experience with mono-attack Volcarona, I am not totally sure Lilligant's ability to sweep with just a grass move, which is more resisted than bug, and Lilligant also has noticeably lower SpA than Volcarona. I mean, it'll sweep most of the time, but there will also be plenty of things 4x resisting grass moves that won't be 2HKO'd by the grass attack. If you wish to give it a try though, you will definitely need Petal Dance if going mono-attack. I am sure it will change a lot of 3HKOs to 2HKOs with Petal Dance instead of Giga Drain.

    You can give mono-attack Volcarona a try too I guess. Probably Protect / Sub / QD / Bug Buzz or Signal Beam ... Signal Beam to bypass Sound Proof, but the lower base power does hurt (I'm still glad Signal Beam Volcarona is available in BW2 now though).

    Alternatively, the most obvious other choice is Dragonite @ Leftovers. Protect/Sub/DD/Dragon Claw ensures Dnite to be at full health (assuming no weather) after being fully setup. Not sure that that will go well pairing with Garchomp as your last pokemon though. Garchomp is very hard to replace with its unique combo of speed, attack, and ground typing. Until Volt Absorb Raikou is released, Garchomp is your fastest electric-immune pokemon that can stat boost. ... except for Whiscash.
  6. feriokun

    feriokun

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
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    Who is that Pokemon who has 258 speed?
  7. NoCheese

    NoCheese

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
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    The first page of this thread has a bunch of helpful resources for building and theorymoning subway teams, including stats, speed tiers, and movesets of the pokemon you'll face.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3398928&postcount=10 is an ordered list of the speeds of everything in the subway. Timid Choice Scarf Switcheroo/Thunder/Volt Switch/Overheat Manectric hits 258 taking its scarf into account.
  8. NoCheese

    NoCheese

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
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    There's certainly some appeal, but the difficulty here is moveslots. Protect is a given for setting up on a Truant opponent, but if I want to boost speed with Agility, and boost Attack to +6 with Swords Dance, I'm left with just one attack, and I'm not sure Acrobatics alone is enough (mono Earthquake is out due to how many things are immune). But Acrobatics does hit pretty darn hard!

    Another issue is that when Gliscor has to come in and kill something without being able to freely set up on a Truant opponent, it's a lot more vulnerable than Garchomp because it's not quite as fast initially. For example, Garchomp can always switch into a Timid Jynx Fake Out and then outspeed and KO with Earthquake. Gliscor only speed ties, and thus risks getting mashed by Blizzard.

    --

    @Chinese Dood: Thanks! Nice catch on Own Tempo Lilligant. Doubt Whiscash is strong enough initially to make a Dragon Dance set work, but the thought of sweeping with a Whiscash gives me a big grin. :) And yeah, mono-attacking Dragonite doesn't really pair too well with Garchomp, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be the "best" Primary sweeper on a Durant team, particularly given how well it works on more traditional cripple-sweep teams.
  9. feriokun

    feriokun

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    59
    Hey NoCheese:

    Does the opponent every switch out on you if the Traunt swap actually works? Or is U-Turn/Volt Switch the only things you've seen that the AI swaps with?
  10. NoCheese

    NoCheese

    Joined:
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    Nope, the opponent will stay in, so long as it has some move that could potentially hurt you. So once your opponent is Entrained, you can usually fully set up unless it Explodes or dies to a held Toxic Orb or the like.

    Note that Volt Switch only saves the opponent if used on the turn you first use Entrainment. Otherwise, you'll switch on the loafing around turn, and Protect on each turn where the opponent could act, and Protect doesn't just stop Volt Switch damage; it also prevents Volt Switch's letting the opponent switch in a new pokemon.

    Also note that the AI typically prioritizes choosing a move that could KO your poke if successful, so on Volt Switchers with a Fire attack (which hits Durant's 4x weakness), as long as the Volt Switch isn't quite powerful enough to OHKO while the Fire attack is, you can still typically Entrainment and set up (though you'll lose Durant). If the Volt Switch could OHKO too, the opponent may still choose it first turn, so be careful.
  11. SimicCombine

    SimicCombine

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    Did you ever have a problem with Prankster Taunt? Thundarus 4 in particular seems like a huge problem due to Prankster Taunt, Volt Switch, and a Ground immunity, meaning you'll have to be locked in to Outrage.
  12. feriokun

    feriokun

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    How did you deal with turn 1 explosions after you Entrainment? Or since they don't OHKO Durant, did they usually not open with explode?
  13. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

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    So on the topic of Durant, and stop me if I'm wrong because I don't even dabble in the subway, but wouldn't a bulky, slow Focus Sash Durant be better. That way the AI can volt switch on Durant, only to have the Pokemon they bring in get truant. And with the proper EV spread, Fake Out users surely could be beaten too. On my phone so sorry if it's not the prettiest post :)

    Tl; dr: wouldn't focus sash guarantee an entrainment?
  14. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    The main problem with slow sash is a fast first turn sleep or twave full paralysis or freeze or taunt or flinch ... all of those combined will for sure happen much more often than Volt Switch.
  15. NoCheese

    NoCheese

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    I've never had a problem with Thundurus 4 (or Tornadus 4, which also has Prankster Taunt). Part of it might be luck, in that the priority Taunt only matters if the Taunter is in the lead, and since the legendary trainers include all 4 types of each legendary, I haven't had to face it in the lead much. But when I have faced it, I can't remember it ever having lead with anything but an attack. I know it's Volt Switched, and I certainly believe it's Discharged too. I suspect this is a case of the AI preference for attacking when it has a move that it believes can OHKO.

    Also, against Thundurus, I typically immediately switch to Garchomp. Garchomp doesn't really mind a Taunt too much in this situation (though as noted above I honestly don't remember him ever eating a Taunt on the switch), and though Thundurus is faster, the best that Thundurus 4 can do to Chomp is Focus Blast, and Chomp can hit back and KO with Outrage. Yeah, that leaves Garchomp locked into an attack, but usually, that's fine, since if Garchomp is KOed, I get to bring in Durant for free and then set up Cloyster.

    I don't recall any turn 1 Explosions against Durant, and suspect that's because, as you say, Durant resists them and so usually survives. However, the AI is certainly somewhat erratic as to when it decides to Explode. I've had stuff explode right away after I switch in Cloyster (turn 3) but I've also had it hold off on exploding until I've had time to set up fully (the final Protect turn before I start attacking). Why the AI chooses to explode when it does isn't always clear, and may include some random factor, so I can't guarantee that I won't face a turn 1 Explosion at some point.
  16. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    @ NoCheese: I apologise if you already stated this somewhere else, but how long on average does a set of 7 take with this team? I guess in an ideal situation battles woud go like this:

    1. Entrainment
    2. Switch to Cloyster
    3. Protect
    4. Shell Smash
    5. Protect
    6. Shell Smash
    7. Protect
    8. Shell Smash
    9. Protect
    10. Attack
    11. Attack
    12. Attack

    That is obviously not as lightning fast as, say, lead Closter sweeping Peterko style, but it certainly seems faster than Whimsicott crippling for Dragonite set ups, which is definitely a plus. But how often does that occur?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    lol I've been thinking that Durant may finally provide the way for me to get Emolga on a 70+ win streak in singles. Obviously this is terrible, but a set of Protect/Charge Beam/Agility/Air Slash (or HP Flying for reliability), with Focus Sash and perhaps with Motor Drive for Volt Switch immunity, would be so satisfying to sweep with!
  17. NoCheese

    NoCheese

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    @Atsync:
    Maybe 2/3 of the time (quite likely more, but this is a conservative number), things go exactly according to plan, and I have that 12 turn battle, give or take a turn or so. If Durant is KOed after Entraining, the battle can be a turn faster, since I'll get a free switch in rather than switching on the loafing turn. It's important to remember this and alternate Shell Smash/Protect rather than the usual Protect/Shell Smash after a Durant KO, since otherwise you won't be in sync with the opponent's loafing turns. If one of the opponent's pokes is particularly bulky, it may take an extra turn or two to finish (two turns on the lead poke, since I'll stack an extra protect in between my attacks, one turn on a second or third poke, usually getting my sash broken after my first attack fails to OHKO).

    The other times, things don't go quite as smoothly. I may have to immediately switch to Chomp, lose it in a few turns, and then bring back Durant and set up Cloyster. (Though occasionally an immediate switch to Chomp ends up speeding things, if I switch in, dance once, and then attack 3 times for a 5 turn win). Cloyster may set up and still die (occasionally I'll Entrainment set up with Chomp first and lose it instead), and I'll then use Durant (if still alive) to set up the other poke. I might have to take a few turns to stick an Entrainment on a poke with Protect that can't really hurt Durant much, etc.

    All in all, though, the matches go pretty quickly. The team doesn't get the lighting fast Attack/Attack/Attack win matches that my Garchomp/Ferrothorn/Suicune team sometimes got, but compared to some of the slow Calm Mind/Sub/Calm Mind/Calm Mind/Sub/Calm Mind/Rest etc. type battles I'd have setting up Suicune, it's much faster. And don't get me started on the fights where Suicune has to stall out Vaporean (even Peterko's team had to deal with these slow Suicune grinds, though battles where Suicune wasn't needed go much faster for him). On average, then, I'd say this team outspeeds a typical "heavy set-up" team, even if it doesn't use cripplers (like my Garchomp/Ferrothorn Suicune), and isn't too much slower than a light or occasional set up team like Peterko's Cloyster/Garchomp/Suicune or ~Mercury~'s Gengar/Garchomp/Suicune.

    So don't let the fear of slow matches keep you from trying Durant, though remember that the use of Cloyster and accordingly needing only three Shell Smashes speeds things compared to sweepers using slower boosting moves.
  18. NoCheese

    NoCheese

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    154
    To continue the above, once in a great while things still find a way to go pretty long. Today I had a long fight with a lead Bastiodon 3 (@Leftovers Stone Edge/Fissure/Double Team/Iron Defense)

    I Entrained on the first turn while it Iron Defensed. I probably should have switched to Chomp, but instead went to Cloyster. On each of my Protect turns, it set up, meaning it had +6 defense and +2 evasion before I started attacking. I missed several Icicle Spears, and even when they landed, I needed one of my 5 hits to crit to do any sort of serious damage. And since I was protecting every other round, it racked up a fair bit of Leftovers healing. Eventually I was able to take it out, but it took a while, and ate a lot of Protect's PP. If the PP got much lower, I'd have switched to Chomp on the loaf turn and set it up instead, taking advantage of its better type matchup on Bastiodon while leaving Cloyster enough PP to set up later if Garchomp were killed by the second or third poke.

    I wasn't ever in any real danger, being that even acting only every other turn, Bastiodon would have been easy to stall out, but it still meant the battle took much longer than usual, and it was probably my longest ever battle with the team. For reference, I could have stalled Bastiodon out because it only had 10 combined PP on its attacking moves and once those moves were out of PP, I could have merrily switched every turn or just grinded it out by slowly doing damage (even with a lot of misses) with 48 Icicle Spears without needing to Protect between them. Worst case scenario, I could even have gotten Durant in on the stalling act while waiting to drain Stone Edge and Fissure of PP, since it could just sync its loafs with the Bastiodon's and Protect every turn.
  19. feriokun

    feriokun

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    59
    I am playing around with Durant and have a few things that might interest you to hear a bout.

    A speed boost/swords dance blaziken can alternate protect/swords dance AND get the +6 speed boost as well. Then can Baton Pass the +6/+6 to any pokemon you want (Including garchomp or a super defensive but low attacker)

    I gave Blaziken double kick (only 30 power but seemed to 2HKO everything that doesn't resist from what I've seen)

    Gave Garchomp Dual Chop with Wide Lens for times I baton pass to him instead of just sweeping with Blaziken.

    So far so good but probably not as good as Cloyster. Just messing around and trying to be different.

    Any thoughts on if a Speed Boost Baton Passing Blaziken passing to another pokemon could be more ideal for sweeping?
  20. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Messages:
    4,540
    Hey, NoCheese, very excited to see you using Rough Skin Garchomp. It's a much more useful ability than Sand Veil when you're against the AI. I've been thinking that's the next update to Peterko's team (and really, for anyone else using Chomp) for the past few weeks now. Glad to see someone took notice of its availability and put it into action, on a good streak no less.
  21. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,013
    Well that's reassuring. I will probably try it out at some point in the future. I'd be curious to see how something like Omaster or Gorebyss would go over Cloyster. Cloyster is probably better because of the sheer power of Icicle Spear (plus it breaks Focus Sash and Sturdy), but I see no reason why other Shell Smashers couldn't work.

    Baton Pass is currently illegal on Speed Boost Blaziken because it's an egg move. Only male Speed Boost Blaziken have been released so it can't pass on Speed Boost to any offspring, making it illegal with any egg moves.
  22. flavor0

    flavor0

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    27
    Cradily and I got a 93 win streak on the Super Multi train. My team was:

    [​IMG]
    Purple the Wailord (F)
    Item: Water Gem
    Ability: Water Veil
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Lvl 50 Stats: 245-86-65-156-66-112
    - Water Spout
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Protect

    [​IMG]
    Edward the Jolteon (M)
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 31/x/30/31/31/31
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lvl 50 Stats: 141-63-80-162-115-200
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power: Ice (70)
    - Protect


    The basic idea was to set up Tailwind with Tornadus while Wailord uses Protect. Then Tornadus sets up Rain Dance and Wailord fires off incredibly powerful Water Spouts. Water Gem was chosen for Wailord because it acts as a Choice Specs for the first Spout, allowing her to KO, or at least do massive damage to, both opponents. Scald is a back up for when Wailord's health is low. Ice Beam provides some extra coverage.

    Jolteon was chosen to handle the bulky water types that Wailord has trouble with. A timid nature over modest and Thunderbolt over Thunder were chosen to give extra reliability in the event that Tailwind and/or Rain Dance ran out. Shadow Ball and HP: Ice to round out coverage and because Jolteon has basically nothing else.

    The major threats to this team were bulky waters that Wailord couldn't do much damage to and could use an annoying move, namely Trick Room Slowbro and Slowking. Bulky grass types and water immune pokes could be problematic, but the rest of our team could handle them pretty well so we could work around them. Kingdra could be threatening as well due to its x4 water resistance and possibility of having Swift Swim. Strong priority and Fake Out users could cause some issues too by reducing Wailord's health before she gets off a Water Spout and interrupting Tornadus' set up, respectively.

    We lost to some pretty annoying hax. The opponent leads with Gigalith #493 and Meganium #212. Meganium sets up Light Screen and Gigalith Sandstorms while Wailord Protects and Tornadus Tailwinds. Light Screen would have been an only slight inconvenience, but then Meganium proceeds to Swagger Wailord and Tornadus. Swaglord hits itself 3 times in a row before dieing while Tornadus engages in a Rain Dance/Sandstorm war with Gigalith (in hindsight, we should have just killed Gigalith). It comes down to Jolteon and Gallade vs Cradily and Scarf Torterra. Jolteon barely misses out on the OHKO with HP:Ice on Torterra due to Light Screen, allowing it to KO Gallade and itself with Wood Hammer (Tailwind was down). Between Cradily's Stockpiles and Light Screen, Jolteon couldn't damage it enough to defeat it. We definitely could have played the match better, but the confusion hax at the start of the match played a big part in our loss.

    We weren't expecting this team to be really successful, but it's a lot of fun to use. Wailord is awesome, purple Wailord is even more awesome, and blasting opponents with torrential Water Spouts is great.

    Picture attached for proof.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/66252366@N06/7702145040/in/photostream
    [​IMG]
  23. Cradily

    Cradily

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    79
    Super Multi streak 93 with Flavor0


    [​IMG]
    Aesop the Tornadus @Focus Sash (M)

    Modest 252 HP 252 SPA 4 SPE
    Iv’s for HP electric 31/31/31/30/31/31
    Tailwind/ Rain Dance/ Hurricane/ Grass Knot

    This is the same Tornadus used in our previous streak with Marowak. Tornadus’s goal is to get a tailwind and rain dance off before being knocked out. This drastically supports himself and Wailord but is a little tedious to accomplish. Focus Sash ensures both moves are set up before Wailord uses water spout unless both opponents double target me and manage to knock me out. Hurricane is the move of choice, it has great power which is a nice change from air slash which didn’t do much of anything the last time I used it. Hurricane is especially useful for grass pokemon who resist water type moves and the chance to confuse is greatly appreciated. Grass knot is to take out bulky waters and usually takes out most bulky waters with ease, minus rindo berry holders, suicune, slowbro, slowking and vaporeon. However, this is all based on if I get a chance to attack. Tornadus exists only to support wailord so we can launch massive water spout after water spout in the rain. If a round goes well I usually get off one or two attacks. We have walked away from many battles not losing a single pokemon. Ev’s allow for max amount of power. I opted for the increase in health over speed to keep me in the game longer. With no speed investment and a tailwind boost, Tornadus out speeds everything in the subway. The added health does help with weaker foes who do not do as much damage as a stabbed stone edge. I am currently considering dropping grass knot for taunt since we lost by a dumb meganium that wouldn’t stop swaggering and light screening our brains out. Gallade carries leaf blade so I'm not sure how big of a loss it will be.


    [​IMG]
    Gaius the Gallade @life orb (M)

    31/31/31/x/31/31
    Adamant 252 ATK 252 spe 4 HP
    Psycho cut/ Close Combat/ Leaf Blade/ Shadow Sneak

    Gallade is my back up and fills a great niche. I needed physical attacker not weak to ice that also has a priority move. I haven’t had much problem with speed and I like the added power. Gallade out speeds everything in tailwind, if it’s up. Close combat destroys blissey unless it has chople berry and is my go to nuke for tough pokemon. Leaf blade hits water types and psycho cut is a good stab move that hits random pokemon like tentacruel and other fighting types. Shadow sneak is my priority move and does a decent job, it can KO the lati twins after they are hit by a massive water spout. Gallade also has great special defense which helps out more times than not in the subway. He’s proven to be a great back up and has pulled through in many occasions. Life orb is mandatory, without it Gallade would be missing out on a few key kills.
    I thoroughly enjoyed this team. We got to use freaking wailord and do well with it. It took a while to pull together but the end result was worth it. One reason we did well on our last try was because we only saw one slowking/slowbro the whole streak. We had one or two close calls and steamrolled many teams, including a few legendary teams. However, when we lose we lose hard, or we punch ourselves in the face because of a dumb swagger-meganium.


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/66252366@N06/7702139120/in/photostream/
  24. feriokun

    feriokun

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    59
    Ah! You're right! Well back to the drawing board then. :)
  25. CBManBearPig

    CBManBearPig

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    204
    I just lost my streak at 126 because, once again, I was watching tv and wasn't paying attention. When will I learn? Oh well, I acheived my goal and got even further. You know Entrainment Durant is broken if it can get someone like me this far. Probably gonna take a break from pokemon until BW2 now. Here's my team:

    Gengar @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Nature: Timid
    Moves: Counter / Destiny Bond / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt

    Durant @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Truant
    EVs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    Moves: Entrainment / Rock Slide / X-Scissor / Iron Head

    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Ability: Multiscale
    EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 52 SDef
    Nature: Adamant
    Moves: Protect / Sub / Dragon Dance / Dragon Claw

    Gengar is my latest discovery. With Shadow Ball / Counter and Destiny Bond, it can usually take out two of the opposing pokemon, sometimes one or even three depending on the circumstances. It can net me an "auto-win" when it takes out two pokemon, because I have Entrainment + Truant and Protect. So many physical attackers lead on turn one trying to get an easy kill, but it only works against them. I love Gengar, but so many things in the subway can render it useless (Flinch, Burn, Sandstorm, Hail, priority, etc). Still, its abilities to get cheap kills are unmatched.

    Durant is still the same monster it always has been. Thanks to its speedy Entrainment, Dragonite can set up and sweep. Unless there's weather or something, Dragonite usually has three 'lives' by the time it has set up, the Substitute, Multiscale, and Dragonite itself. Dragonite is truly amazing thanks to Multiscale. It really wants Roost but I don't have room for it on the moveset.

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