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Blaziken

Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by manav95, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. manav95

    manav95

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    Blaziken gets Speed Boost this gen and he is looking to be a top threat. However, it is still to be known what this effect will have on Blazkien's viability. Although it looks like Infernape is now outclassed severely. Blaziken already was a top threat in UU and he may have a shot at OU.

    Swords Dance

    Blaziken @ Life Orb
    Adamant/Jolly
    Speed Boost
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick
    - Stone Edge

    Damage Calcs
    -Hi Jump Kick vs. Walls; all calcs assume +2.

    vs. 404/361 Suicune: (92.82% - 109.41%) OHKO with rocks.
    vs. 404/306 Swampert: (109.16% - 128.71%) OHKO.
    vs. 394/282 +1 Milotic: (81.47% - 95.94%) 53.85% chance of OHKO with rocks.
    vs. 448/240 Vaporeon: (125.45% - 147.99%) OHKO.
    vs. 420/368 Hippowdon: (87.14% - 102.86%) 53.85% chance of OHKO with rocks.
    vs. 404/328 Manaphy: (101.73% - 119.80%) OHKO.
    vs. 324/295 Starmie [never seen]: (70.68% - 83.33%)
    vs. 384/372 Donphan: (94.79% - 111.72%)
    vs. 338/364 Bronzong: (110.06% - 129.59%)

    -Hi Jump Kick vs. potential 5th gen walls, all calcs assume +2

    vs. 352/401 Abagoora [Water/Rock turtle]: (191.48% - 225.57%)
    vs. 374/394 Gigaiasu: (183.42% - 216.58%)
    vs. 386/392 Kobaruon: (178.76% - 210.36%)
    vs. 344/383 Iwaparesu [Bug/Rock hermit crab?]: (102.91% - 121.22%)

    -Fire Blast vs. 4th gen walls

    vs. 404/328 Celebi: (66.83% - 79.21%)
    vs. 334/262 Skarmory: (102.40% - 120.96%)
    vs. Forretress: OHKO
    vs. 338/364 Bronzong: (72.78% - 85.80%)
    vs. 354/186 Gliscor: (67.80% - 79.94%)

    -Fire Blast vs. potential 5th gen walls

    vs. 320/246 Desukan: (56.56% - 66.88%)
    vs. Nattorel: OHKO

    I'm not even going to continue. The great thing is that the few things that can survive Hi Jump Kick...are highly Susceptible to Fire Blast in exchange. And with Steels annihilated by Hi Jump Kick as is, there may not even be a need for Fire Blast, freeing up a slot for Shadow Claw/Night Slash for ghosts.

    -+2 Shadow Claw vs:

    vs. 320/427 Desukan: (71.25% - 84.38%)
    vs. 404/262 Burunkeru [Water/ghost]: (91.58% - 107.92%)
    vs. 382/284 Goruggo: (89.53% - 105.76%)
    vs. 404/328 Celebi: (73.27% - 86.63%)

    MixKen 2011

  2. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Haha, this is basically my post from the other thread with a bit added onto the end. I'm thinking you should quote my part, yes?

    Honestly, I see little need for HP Ice; the dragons are easily decimated by merely switching in.

    Salamence/Altaria dies to +1/+2 Stone Edge.
    Flygon/Garchomp/Ononokusu/Sazando/Kingdra/Kurimigan die to Hi Jump Kick.

    End of story. Obviously I have no knowledge of the future metagame, but I can say that with a simple set of SD/HJK/Fire Blast/Stone Edge, Blaziken will be a potent threat.
  3. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

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    Is Swords Dance still a TM? If not we do not know if it will be able to rend the metagame a new one as you say.

    Blaziken also gets Flare Blitz as a level up move to punish bulky Ghosts, Gliscor, Celebi and others.

    The third move might as well be Protect since Tentacruel and Gyarados are both OHKOed by +2 (or +1 for Gyarados) High Jump Kick. Shadow Claw works to pick off Flash Fire Candle thing.

    I don't think the dragons will be taking a High Jump Kick to the face well, as after intimidate and rocks Salamence is OHKOed by High Jump Kick (77.6% - 91.5%). I think he is the bulkiest dragon, so Dragonite should share the same fate.
  4. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    It is, and Blaziken learns it. I'd say that Tentacruel is an issue, but:

    372 Atk +2 LO HJK vs. 364/251 Tentacruel: (73.63% - 86.81%)

    it isn't liking HJK at all, and Stone Edge has a chance to OHKO. Flare Blitz is a possibility, but the recoil is off-putting...perhaps Blaze Kick?

    EDIT: That's max/max Bold Tenta, btw.
  5. SigmaEpsilon

    SigmaEpsilon

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    I believe that Speed Boost Blaziken will be dominant, providing that there is a way to RNG IVs.

    Scratch that, Even with imperfect IVs Blaze is still a huge threat.

    ...
    Dear god-
    This is like Bullet Punch Scizor all over again, isn't it?
    Give a moderately respectable, fairly average Pokemon one change and BOOM everyone and their grandma wants it.
    ...
    Myself included. I always thought Blaziken deserved better.

    Now the question is, can we breed Dream World Abilities? If so...
    .... *Shudders*
    I feel the rush already!

    Edit @IcyMan28:
    BLAZE KICK FTW
    I loved that move. Flaming feet everywhere.
  6. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

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    I'm sure Blaze Kick is an option. It can't OHKO some of the super bulky Ghosts like Dusknoir and probably not that Ghost / Water Jellyfish.
  7. GLS

    GLS

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    Keep in mind it takes a fair amount of time for Blaziken to set up. He's not at +2 attack and speed until the third turn he is out. Plenty of time to get a scarfed Timid Starmie in for the OHKO. He also is weak to Aqua Jet which thankfully Dragonite, who resists both his stabs, now gets.

    Speed Boost Blaziken is going to be a great Pokemon, but I see a lot of people anointing him king way too early.
  8. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    +2 Speed isn't too necessary, IMO. Like Infernape, Blaziken will best be utilized late game. Switch in on Nattorei/something that can't harm you, SD on the switch, nab your speed boost, and outspeed everything that is +Speed base 120 and below with freakishly powerful attacks. Priority is an issue as usual, but Blaze resists a few of them (Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch, notably).
  9. SigmaEpsilon

    SigmaEpsilon

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    Man. Gotta pay more attention to things like that. Didn't even KNOW.

    Wait. Where are people finding things like that...?

    I smell a new thread to look at soon!
  10. Torchic

    Torchic

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    Yeah, see my ID you'll see I really love Blaziken.
    Actually Hi jump kick is slightly better than Close Combat, great 130 base power.
    Swords Dance is TM 75 in BW, so Blaziken can get it.
    I think Stone Edge is a option.
  11. Universal Berry

    Universal Berry

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    Do not forget that HJK is kinda predictable and a crash into a random ghost could be EXTREMELY devastating.
  12. DR809

    DR809

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    Blaziken is going to replace Infernape and be a very dominant pokemon imo. If it can get a physical grass move this thing will be nearly unstoppable o.O
  13. Arikado

    Arikado What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!
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    Wait, Blaziken can learn Swords Dance now ?
  14. NeoSeth

    NeoSeth

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    Close Combat is far safer than Hi Jump Kick, especially for something as frail as Blaziken. I'd run that, since the extra 10 base power isn't all that appealing.
  15. manav95

    manav95

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    OK I updated this with your suggestions. Epic Cherubi- Dragonite is bulkier than Mence, otherwise why was it still OU when Mence was around. Also Blaziken knows Swords Dance and TPunch from Gen 4 but it appears it learns Kick as level up only in Gen 5.
    Swords Dance Ken
    Speed Boost
    Life Orb
    EVs 252 Attack 252 Speed 4 HP
    Swords Dance
    Shadow Claw/Thunderpunch/SE
    Blaze Kick
    HJK
    This is meant to sweep without relying on those recoil moves. You switch Blaziken in on some wall that hates it and SD on the way out. Kick and HJK are to rip your enemies to shreds. The fourth move chooses who walls you. Shadow Claw deals with ghosts like Shandera but Tentacruel and Dragonite wall you, TP kills Cruel but ghosts and Nite wall you, and SE means ghosts wall you. Pick one and plan your team to lure the enemy counters to Blaziken out.
  16. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Swords Dance is a current TM that Blaziken learns, while Hi Jump Kick can be retrieved on all Blaziken via Heart Scale, so there are no compatability issues.

    Close Combat's defense drops could prove annoying for Blaziken, since Speed Boost makes priority moves all the more important in taking it down. It will not appreciate taking 40% from Bullet Punch after a CC. Regardless...Blaziken does not learn Close Combat, so the point is moot.

    Yes, and has been able to since Gen 4.
  17. Epic Cherubi

    Epic Cherubi

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    Salamence gets intimidate, thus it takes physical hits better than Dragonite. Both pokes are OHKOed after rocks.

    Blaziken needs a way to get Swords Dance this generation as it can't get it from gen 4 AND have Speed boost at the same time.
  18. Torchic

    Torchic

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    SD is TM 75 in BW.
  19. Max_LKC

    Max_LKC

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    You fail to outspeed scarfgon with only +1 speed boost and without +2 from SD you wont OHKO it scarfgon just have to switch in on the turn you're in and OHKO you back with EQ crawdaunt now gets adaptability unless your willing to waste a move slot for a vacuum wave on an SD set you're going to get OHKO by aqua jet.
  20. greg3064

    greg3064

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    Stone Edge is might be the best coverage move, since it DOES hit Ghost/Fire for SE, as well as all the other Flying-types that resist Fire. And I'm pretty sure Ghost/Water won't take it since it doesn't have too high base def. Main issue is accuracy, but you're already gambling with HJK and possibly Blaze Kick.

    I may just use Fire Punch. I've always used it with SD Infernape and Blaziken is more powerful. New walls either can't take HJK or Fire in general.

    Doryuuzu can revenge it in Sand Storm if it's only at +2. Not a good switch-in, though, since it won't take anything Fire/Fighting. In that case an important teammate would be Drought Ninetales (assuming it's in OU) to keep Sand away (and power up Fire move of choice) while a counter would of course be Politoed (lure a Fire attack [with something that Fighting wouldn't be considered against] and switch to Politoed, who could probably survive NVE w/ Rain up).

    Blaziken is beautiful.

    Yes, ScarfGon will be able to force it out at +1, but that's all. Dragonite and Crawdaunt are big because they can check it when it has more boosts (also when your opponent is less inclined to switch out, which may or may not be to their advantage). Certainly not all Dragonite and Crawdaunt will be running Aqua Jet, but they can bluff it and attempt a forced switch.

    A neat set could be a lure with Sub + HP Ice + Focus Blast + Fire Blast. Take it in a different direction but eliminates the SD sets counters in Flygon, Dragonite, Crawdaunt.
  21. Brongaa

    Brongaa

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    Max-LKC, you obviously don't switch in on Flygon. By the time flygon switches in, you already have at least +2 speed boost, maybe more.
  22. Max_LKC

    Max_LKC

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    k lets take this for an example: foe's dragonite fainted foe send out blaziken(no speed boost) user switch out weavile and send out flygon , blaziken uses Sword dance, blaziken's speed boost raises it speed(+1)

    Another example: foe switches in blaziken, Scizor use U-turn, User switches in flygon, Blaziken speed boost raises it speed(+1)

    Third example:foe switches in blaziken, blaziken get hurts by rocks, user's skarmory use spike, Blaziken speed boost raises it's speed, Blaziken uses blaze kick/fire punch/fire blast( what else would you do? get whirlwind and start over again?) Skarm fainted Blaziken speed boost raises its speed(+2) User switch in Flygon, Blaziken out speeds it wow but without SD Hi Jump Kick wont be able to OHKO flygon and flygon survives OHKO back with EQ(if you want to switch switch then, next time your LO blaziken switches in it will be 12% from SR and another 12% from spikes + the 20% damage you just taken from LO and 12% from SR =48% Hp left, with low defenses you cant switch in to any attack you will die and with only 58% health you have to attack cant SD which result in failing to Ko the opponent and if you're in bad luck HJkick misses and you die).

    get what I mean? I admit it is tough to counter but don't get over hyped about it, an as for the third example if your smart you won't even be switching in flygon on a non SD blaziken something Bulkier such as blastoise or swampert is more than enough
  23. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Maybe so, but Flygon is having to revenge it immediately otherwise it dies. Also, think of the scenario this way:

    Nattorei has just switched into your Suicune.

    Player1 withdrew Suicune!
    Player1 sent out Blaziken!
    Nattorei used Spikes!
    Speed Boost raised Blaziken's speed! (it is now at +1)

    Player2 withdrew Nattorei!
    Player2 sent out ScarfGon!
    Blaziken used Swords Dance!
    Speed Boost raised Blaziken's speed (+2/+2)


    Basically what I just illustrated is...if Blaziken forces something out, your revenger has to be able to either take a +2 hit and retaliate, or outspeed Ken at +2. With the EV spread I provided...that means +Speed base 121 with a Scarf or higher.

    Blindly switching Blaziken in is a horrible idea, as it is easily revengable with no speed/protection.

    This. I don't expect Crawdaunt to be big at all, maybe Azumarill (and Dragonite will run Extremespeed > Aqua Jet, but that point is irrelevant here).

    What I really want to highlight is the latter point. Switching in your revenger expecting SDKen could horribly backfire should you switch into the following:

    Blaziken@Target Mark/Aiming Mark
    Rash; EVs

    Fire Blast
    Substitute
    Focus Punch
    Hidden Power Electric

    Stare in horror as your switchin is decimated. Shandaraa attempting to revenge is Focus Punched into oblivion while Blaze nets +2 speed; bulky waters are electrocuted by HP Electric (including Swampert, thanks to the aiming mark). And when all is said and done, Fire Blast cleans. And before crying that Infernape outclasses the set, note that the lack of boosting moves here make Blaziken's naturally higher offenses much more threatening, not to mention Speed Boost. Plot/SD Ape is too slow and frail to be attempting a sweep.

    Blaziken is no less versatile than it has been since Ruby and Sapphire.

    This is one of those situations where you would SD, predicting the switch. If your opponent really wants to sac Skarm when you have a dragon/Doryuuzu waiting in the wings, that is their choice. I also think that you are seriously underestimating the power of Blaziken:

    372 Atk LO HJK vs. 302/196 Def Flygon: (114.24% - 134.44%)

    A solid OHKO. And even if it weren't, Blaziken has nothing to lose from switching. It didn't waste a set-up; it killed Skarmory.
  24. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Why not use Protect + 3 Attacks and Life Orb. You could get the automatic +1 or +2 if you force something out. Probably one of the best cleaners late game in gen 5.
  25. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    If you're going to force something out, I think you might as well take the opportunity to SD or set up a Sub, no? Protect would allow you to get to +3...but that's overkill haha.

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