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Blissey (BW2 Revamp - QC 1/3) - Up For Grabs

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Alfalfa, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    [​IMG]
    I think I got prescribed to the wrong drug.... some Special Attacker named Keldeo got past Blissey!

    Approvals: Fuzznip

    [Overview]
    *The metagame has filled up with too many strong attackers and multiple methods of getting past Blissey for her to remain a top-tier threat.
    *The popularity of Keldeo in particular is too much for Blissey to handle. Strong Psychics, like Latios and Alakazam, also have an easier time with Blissey with their access to Psyshock.
    *Faces competition with her younger sister, Chansey, who was blessed with the Eviolite, which allows her to take some more physical hits, as well as special ones
    *Unlike Chansey, Blissey can hold Leftovers, allowing it to negate the residual damage from Sand, Hail, and Entry hazards.
    *Her HP is the highest of any Pokemon, and can make use of it with massive Wishes that can heal more than 300 HP
    *Faces little competition as a cleric
    *Needs some support more than ever to cover up her weaknesses, and is setup bait for some dangerous physical sweepers, like Gyarados, Lucario, and Landorus-T.

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Wish / Softboiled
    move 2: Protect / Aromatherapy
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Seismic Toss / Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Calm
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef

    [SET COMMENTS]
    *Blissey's monstrous base 255 HP stat is ideal for passing Wishes to its teammates, as it restores a ton of HP to a plethora of Pokemon.
    *Softboiled reduces Blissey's reliance on Wish for recovery
    *Protect should only be used with Wish, as it allows Blissey to receive the Wish and scout the opponent
    *Aromatherapy prevents Blissey from being Toxic-stalled. It also wakes up a sleeping teammate, who would otherwise be out for the entire match
    *Softboiled + Aromatherapy, and Wish + Protect go hand-in-hand together.
    *Toxic allows Blissey to wear down the opponent, and is Blissey's main form of damaging the opponent, and works well with Protect.
    *Seismic Toss prevents Blissey from becoming complete setup bait by sweepers (especially most Substitute users trying to avoid Toxic), and allows it to reliably damage the opposition without worrying about its low offenses.
    *Flamethrower hits most Steels immune to Toxic hard, such as Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn, as well as making Blissey a better counter to Venusaur. However, it fails to guarantee a 2HKO on Ferrothorn.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    *EVs maximize defenses, and Calm Nature is used to allow her to wall Special Attackers better.
    *Wish can be paired with Softboiled to reduce Blissey's dependence on receiving Wish. Aromatherapy should always be used with Softboiled. However, if Blissey needs neither Wish or Aromatherapy, Flamethrower can be used in the second slot in tandem with Seismic Toss.
    *Fire Blast can be used in place of Flamethrower to 2HKO Skarmory and Ferrothorn, but its measly amount of PP is an issue for a defensive Pokemon
    *Thunder Wave cripples some of the Pokemon that tend to switch into Blissey, such as Jirachi, Scizor, Terrakion, Salamence, etc. Thunder Wave also allows Blissey to cripple Venusaur.
    *Blissey functions well on stall and other defensive teams who appreciate the utility of Wish and can cover Fighting-types and physical attackers in return. Jellicent, Latias, and Skarmory are good examples of such.
    *Entry hazards are annoying for a wall to have to stomach. Tentacruel and Forretress can Rapid Spin, abuse Blissey's Wishes, and lay down hazards of her own. Ferrothorn can check Dragon Dance users, as well as Latios and Kyurem-B. Landorus-T checks all sorts of physical attackers not named Mamoswine, Weavile, or Kyurem-B
    *Blissey is best used in Sand or Hail, where Chansey gets worn too easily, so Hippowdon and Abomasnow are good teammates. Tyranitar is not bad either, but it increases the weakness of Fighting-types to the team by a very large margin.

    [OTHER OPTIONS]
    *Stealth Rock is a move that literally every team must have, but there are so many Pokemon that learn it, so Blissey should rarely ever need it.
    *Blissey also has Thunderbolt, but she really does not have the space for them, and they are pitifully weak for such a low uninvested Special Attack. However, Ice Beam can hit several Dragons hard, such as Garchomp and Salamence.
    *Blissey can use Calm Mind to boost her high Special Defense and her mediocre Special Attack, but she is still weak to physical attacks, such as from Scizor and Breloom.
    *Light Screen, but that is better left to Pokemon like Cresselia or Bronzong, who have access to Reflect as well
    *Serene Grace increases the chances of secondary effects, like Ice Beam's chance to freeze, but Natural Cure is generally the better option, because Blissey generally does not stay in for too many turns. Natural Cure also allows Blissey to recover from Poison and Burns, which would otherwise cripple her.
    *Counter and Gravity are less orthodox options, but can work, due to Blissey's insane HP stat
    *Skill Swap can be used to stop Reuniclus from destroying your team, but Blissey is hit hard by Psyshock.
    *Blissey has some gimmicky options in Defense Curl, Sing, and Charm, but Blissey has better things to do.

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]
    *The large list of Fighting types in OU are the best way to keep Blissey in check; Terrakion, Breloom, Keldeo, Infernape, Conkeldurr, Lucario, etc.
    *Gengar shuts down any Blissey set, and can Taunt her or use Substitute + Pain Split to wear her down, or Substitute + Disable to keep her from passing Wishes.
    *Any physical attacker with a boosting move or a Fighting-type move can muscle past Blissey
    *Jirachi is immune to Toxic, and can set up 101 HP Substitutes to allow it to get multiple Calm Minds in without getting worn down by Seismic Toss. It can also paralyze Blissey and flinch it down with Iron Head, or trick a Choice Scarf onto it.
    *Other Trick users, like Latios and Rotom-W, cripple Blissey by replacing her beloved Leftovers with a handicap.
    *Despite having Natural Cure, Toxic Spikes annoy Blissey a lot, as they wear her down rather quickly
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Thunder Wave should definitely be slashed with Toxic, as it cripples Venusaur so another teammate can KO it.

    Mention Psyshock in the overview. Also, I'm not sure the metagame becoming "hard hitting" really changed Blissey's role, it was more that mixed attackers like Hydreigon, Salamence, Dragonite, and Thundurus-T as well as Latios and Keldeo being able to hit on the physical side that did a number to Blissey.

    I wouldn't really include Gengar as a counter, as I'm pretty sure Blissey can stall it with Wish + Softboiled and Focus Blast only has 8 PP and 70 Accuracy.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Blissey will have only one set, with Wish / Softboiled in one moveslot.
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Changes made.
  5. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    While I mostly agree, one of the biggest benifits of Sub+Pain Split Gengar is its ability to set up on and (eventually) take out Blissey. That's literally what the set sells itself on. Even Sub+Disable Gengar uses Blissey as set-up, since other than prepping a Wish to pass all Blissey does in front of it is use up precious PP - a huge thing on a stallish Pokemon. So while Gengar that don't use Pain Split aren't really "counters" per say, they prevent Blissey herself from doing anything overly valuable (especially with Taunt), so it's worthy enough to note in the paragraph I'd think.

    This has been a minute with Seth.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Make the moveset like this:

    name: Defensive (or whatever really)
    move 1: Wish / Softboiled
    move 2: Protect / Aromatherapy
    move 3: Seismic Toss / Flamethrower
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Natural Cure
    nature: Calm
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD

    Also move combos to mention in AC include Wish + Softboiled (to have both Wish and one turn recovery) and Flamethrower in the second slot if Wish and Aromatherapy are not needed. Mention Thunder Wave in the AC too, as while useful, Toxic is really needed to stall out special attackers such with recovery such as CM Latias, and Flamethrower already handles Venusaur, one of the few special attackers that T-Wave is useful for.
  7. Alfalfa

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  8. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I'm wondering whether we should put Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower. With Fire Blast, Blissey has a guaranteed 2HKO on Ferrothorn in neutral weather. You also have a guaranteed 2HKO Skarmory in neutral weather with Fire Blast where Flamethrower fails. In short, it makes Blissey a bit less of hazard fodder.
  9. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Yeah, Skarmory and Ferrothorn tend to use abuse Blissey a lot by using it as set-up bait, might not be a bad idea.
  10. Namso

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    Just gonna provide some of my non-QC input.

    [Overview]

    I think this should point should emphasize the fact that Blissey isn't the best special wall anymore because many top-tier special attackers, such as Keldeo, Alakazam, and Latios, have tools to bypass her massive Special Defense through Secret Sword in the former's case and Psyshock in the latter two.

    Mention specifically that Chansey has more physical and special bulk than Blissey due to Eviolite.

    It's not just that Blissey functions better in sand and hail, also mention that Leftovers accommodates for residual damage Blissey takes from entry hazards and status effects.

    You need to bring up that she's setup bait to a lot of threatening sweepers out there, such as Gyarados, Lucario, and Landorus.

    [SET]

    Change this to "Support."

    Switch up move 4 and move 3 imo. Toxic is way more important than Seismic Toss / Flamethrower, it's pretty much Blissey's main source of damage and crippling the opposition. It's also a great move when used in tandem with Wish and Protect, which Blissey most commonly does. With that in mind, make sure you alternate the set comments to reflect the new move order.

    [SET COMMENTS]

    You can mention that it often completely restores the HP of a plethora of Pokemon, particularly sweepers.

    Mention Protect along with Wish, and then mention Softboiled + Aromatherapy as alternatives with their benefits.

    This is self-explanatory, I'd rather you mention stuff like how it prevents Blissey from being Toxic stalled, which is a common method defensive Pokemon use to hurt Blissey, and how it removes the fatal sleep status on a Pokemon so you're not fighting 5 vs 6.

    This doesn't mean anything. Again, mention how it helps Blissey. In this case, Seismic Toss prevents Blissey from becoming complete setup bait by sweepers (especially most Substitute users trying to avoid Toxic), and allows it to reliably damage the opposition without worrying about its low offenses.

    Don't mention Ferro and Venu specifically. Instead, mention something like "Flamethrower hits the many Steel- and Grass-types in OU, such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Venusaur, which are mostly unaffected by Toxic." Also, just say "popularity of rainy weather" instead of "Drizzle Politoed."

    Remember to move this up ahead of Seismic/Flame and mention how it's Blissey's main source of damaging and hindering the opponent and how it works well with Wish/Protect.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    Blissey will never be running no recovery, so remove this whole bolded sentence. What alexwolf meant is that if you're running Softboiled and Aromatherapy is unneeded, Flamethrower can be used instead along with Seismic Toss.

    Don't really know why you're mentioning this. Just remove it. If anything, you can mention in the Overview that Chansey is generally superior outside of sand and hail teams.

    [Other Options]

    What? Remove.

    Remove...

    Ice Beam is actually a decent option to consider because it slams the many Dragon-types within the tier that seek enjoyment setting up against Blissey. Just mention that Flamethrower is typically the better option for a coverage move or something. Also, they're not "pitifully weak for such a hyper offensive metagame," they are pitifully weak because of Blissey's uninvested low Special Attack.

    Specifically mentioning Breloom's Mach Punch is really out of place. Just mention she's weak to the plethora of Fighting-type attacks in the tier, such as blahblahblah.

    OO is not a place for extreme gimmicks, but legitimate other options. If you're mentioning Serene Grace, mention how it can help but why it's inferior.

    Counter and Gravity are not bad choices, so I wouldn't consider them as gimmicky. Blissey can take a strong non-super effective physical attack, and Countering that can score you a free kill essentially. Blissey is a very good Gravity user as well because of its longevity and giant Wishes. You can mention Charm here if you want.


    I think that's all for now.
    Wumbo in Chains and Kingler12345 like this.
  11. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    O.k, im fine with a line mentioning fully healing many pokemon or something, but I don't really want to start throwing around sweepers. Far too often I see perhaps the more 'unskilled' people using Blissey on such a hyper offensive team because "it passes wishes", when Jirachi would potentially be a better fit for a wish passer due to how much harder it is to set up on it. Blissey generally kills your offensive momentum if your using it with sweepers (in my experience) and id prefer if this was stated if you want to persist with with Wish healing sweepers mention.

    Agree with utterly everything else that Fuzznip said. Make the changes.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah add everything that Fuzznip said except for one thing;
    You should definitely mention Venusaur when talking about Flamethrower as it's one of the main reasons to use it in the first place. Many stall teams struggle against Venusaur in sun, and Flamethrower Blissey is a perfect counter to it. Of 'course being able to 2HKO Forretress and do significant damage to Ferrothorn is very helpful as well.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
    Wumbo in Chains and Kingler12345 like this.
  13. Alfalfa

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    Edits made.
  14. UltiMario

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    I honestly think Fire Blast should be main slash since if you're using Seismic Toss most the time you're basically better off using Chansey. You really should be abusing Blissey's higher SpA if you're using it, so Fire Blast is why you'd be using Blissey over Chansey to begin with. The only times you should be using Seismic Toss Blissey is on/for Sand or Hail for when you need the Leftovers compared to Chansey, which is less than 19% of all teams according to OU usage stats. Which means more than 4/5 times Blissey should be carrying Fire Blast, which is certainly something that should be first slash.
  15. Alfalfa

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    That is not exactly why you would use Blissey over Chansey. Sure, that is a reason to use Blissey, but the negated residual damage from Sand and hail is the main reason to use Blissey over Chansey.
  16. Namso

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    The main reason to use Blissey is because it's more reliable as a special sponge than Chansey, simply because of how Leftovers compensates for entry hazards, weather, and status damage, so it's not as susceptible to wear and tear as Chansey is.

    But really, I don't know about using Fire Blast over Flamethrower. I guess it can OHKO CB Scizor and 2HKO standard Ferrothorn, among other things it does, but between its 8 PP (easily stalled out), lack of power against neutral targets (again, makes it easy to sponge and PP stall), poor accuracy (can be game-breaking in certain scenarios), popularity of rain, and just overall unreliability on such a defensive Pokemon as Blissey leads me to believe Flamethrower is the better route to take.

    That's just me, though, I don't know what QC thinks.

    Also,

    I told you to say that Chansey specifically has higher overall bulk than Blissey (the reason to use it over Blissey), not that Eviolite improves its bulk.
  17. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    FLAMETHROWER

    why the hell are we using fire blast, you want an accurate and reliable move on your blob. don't even ac fire blast, it's just so easily stalled out ughhhhh...

    imo the set needs to look like this:

    move 1: Wish / Softboiled
    move 2: Softboiled / Aromatherapy / Protect
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Seismic Toss / Flamethrower

    First of all, I maintain that Softboiled + Wish is better than Wish + Protect is better than Wish. This version's main function is to make Wish + Softboiled possible within the given moveslots, and when it is one of the best combinations of moves to run on Blissey, I can't see why you would not want to fit it onto the main set. This is not 'too cluttered' such that the set is unreadable. Wish + Protect simply isn't the best option you can run in my opinion. Not giving away a free turn for setup basically with Softboiled > Protect is great. However, the uses of Protect for gaining extra Leftovers recovery and such led me to favoring it on the main set, though as the last option in the second slot. Combos to mention in the set comments: Wish + Softboiled, Softboiled + Aromatherapy, Wish + Protect.

    AC Skill Swap, which gives you an option to remove CM Reuniclus's Magic Guard and thus prevent it from fucking over your stall team.
  18. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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  19. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    @Alfalfa, when a QC member says 'we should consider it', that does not mean make the change immediately. It means provide your opinion and let everyone discuss it.

    ugh that sounds harsh, basically don't just take when someone on qc says 'let's consider this' as a reason to change it immediately
  20. Alfalfa

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    Anything else I should fix?
  21. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Fire Blast is AC material rather than OO in my personal opinion. Stealth Rock should also potentially be AC as well.

    In general: Moves that are rly nice in certain situations: AC
    Really gimmicky stuff that might work: OO
  22. Namso

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    I don't know Jukain, the set you presented does look cluttered and confusing because so much is going on. You might end up with some new Blissey users using Softboiled + Protect or Wish + Aromatherapy or something, even if you mention the necessary combinations. I think it's best to keep it as simple as possible and mention in AC what else works well, just like it was beforehand which, in my opinion, is more clearer.

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Wish / Softboiled
    move 2: Protect / Aromatherapy
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Seismic Toss / Flamethrower

    SC: Specifically mention Wish/Protect and Softboiled/Aromatherapy go hand-in-hand as Alfalfa has now, AC: Wish + Softboiled

    I personally don't think Wish + Softboiled is better than Wish + Protect. You're using up two slots for recovery moves when you only have to use one slot. Wish + Protect + Toxic is a very lethal combination. Protect itself has so many benefits on Blissey, between recovering health via Leftovers, Toxic stalling, and scouting. Also, if you mention that the opponent can predict the Protect and switch to something or set up, I can argue the same thing and claim Blissey can predict this and attack or poison. I do it all the time.

    Also, Skill Swap shouldn't be put into AC, it's 100% OO material at best. Using Skill Swap just to prevent CM Reuniclus from sweeping you is ridiculous and highly situational, and in practice, it's not always going to work. Look:

    Reuni used CM.
    Blissey switches in.
    Reuni used Psyshock. (+1 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 310-366 (47.54 - 56.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
    Blissey used Toxic/Skill Swap.
    Reuni used Psyshock.
    Blissey dies.

    You end up giving it Natural Cure anyway, so you then have to reapply Toxic all over again when it comes back in if it doesn't carry Psyshock.


    Keep in mind that I'm not QC, so don't include/change anything within the analysis that I've stated unless QC approves of them.
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  23. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    In the SC and AC you mention infernape a lot more than terrakion. Imo slowbro is a great partner because it takes on terrakion, infernape and keldeo outside rain, and probably should be added.. Just saying.
    Also
    The 'with' should be 'from'.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  24. Alfalfa

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    This is a skeleton lol. We are not worrying about silly things like that. That is GP stuff, which we are not anywhere close to. And Slowbro is probably not the best partner for Blissey....

    252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 221-262 (56.09 - 66.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Sure, it does handle Terrakion and Infernape nicely, but Jellicent is a better teammate for Blissey, as Jellicent covers Keldeo better than Slowbro, and Infernape is very unpredictable to begin with. I apologize if I overmentioned Terrakion, but Blissey prefers different Bulky Waters than Slowbro.
  25. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Hmm yeah
    Like I said i was just saying slowbro is a pretty amazing partner. Also stuff like slowbro is very commonly run with amoonguss because you would be doing something wrong if you had the bro as your only pony check. Thats a sandstall core too which is a bonus for blissy js.

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