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Blissey (Update) [QC 0/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Lockeness, May 19, 2012.

  1. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    This is the basic outline for the Blissey Analysis based on what's already on site. Additions, advice and suggestions are welcome! As soon as I feel I have most of the major kinks worked out I will write this up as a rough draft. [QC 0/2]

    [Overview]

    <p>Blissey is without a doubt the direct descendant of alien monsters from low budget 1950s sci-fi horror films. The evidence: A.) Blissey is a gigantic pink blob B.) it is impervious to most assaults, and C.) it has an easily exploitable weakness waiting to be taken advantage of by our handsome and dashing really bad actor protagonist. Blissey's strong points are its ridiculously high base 255 HP and superb 135 Special Defense and access to the ever useful Heal Bell and instant recovery in Softboiled. This combination of base stats and movepool allow it to absorb every unboosted special attack in the game with ease. The bad news is that Blissey has a massive weakness to physical attacks courtesy of its stunningly awful base 10 Defense. Even base 255 HP won't save Blissey from taking incredible amounts of damage from most physical attacks. If that wasn't enough, Blissey's middling Special Attack prevents it from doing significant damage to opponents, even with its large special movepool. On top of that Blissey's best move- Heal Bell, won't work in conjunction with certain other moves, narrowing down the available options for it to abuse. The main difference between the other main Heal Bell user, Miltank, and Blissey comes down to stat distribution and defensive orientation. Miltank is oriented toward physical defense and has access to STAB Body Slam, decent Attack, excellent Speed, and the ability to take on Curse users. Miltank also takes on mixed attackers much better than Blissey. Blissey is slower, is specially oriented on offense and takes virtually nothing form special attacks while providing excellent screen support and the ability to induce sleep. Blissey truly is an excellent special wall and cleric, but it needs a team surrounding it to adequately make use of the support it offers.</p>

    [SET]

    name:Special Wall
    move 1: Softboiled
    move 2: Heal Bell
    move 3: Toxic / Sing / Light Screen
    move 4: Ice Beam / Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Most Blissey sets will look like something like the set above. With Heal Bell removing status from its entire team and Softboiled providing instant recovery Blissey will serve as a nigh impenetrable special wall and effective team cleric. This set is all about Heal Bell and absorbing special attacks with the last two moveslots open to a slew of options. With Toxic Blissey can poison physical attackers on the switch and will do reliable damage against anything without Rest. If Blissey does manage to poison something with Rest the opponent will be forced to sleep their pokemon sooner than normal. Sing has poor accuracy, but it can effectively knock out one of Blissey's opponents assuming that opponent doesn't have Sleep Talk. Sing is most effective on the switch, since it can often catch physical attackers off guard as they come in to set up on Blissey. While using Light Screen on Blissey may not seem logical on its face, the boost it gives to Blissey's team should not be underrated considering how often Blissey will be switching in and out. Light Screen will also better protect Blissey from +6 Vaporeon and company; especially if they get a critical hit. However, Blissey will need to beware of being stalled out of PP if it isn't careful. Light Screen will also offer amazing support for any set up sweepers that switch in after Blissey such as Snorlax. As for attacking options, Ice Beam and Flamethrower are Blissey's main staples. Flamethrower will hit Steels Toxic will not touch and for hitting Forretress looking to set up Spikes. Ice Beam nabs the super effective hit on opposing Ground-types such as Nidoking, Marowak and Rhydon while also providing a 10% freeze chance. Any combination of attack and support move in addition to Heal Bell and Softboiled is viable in most situations. This set's main focus is centered around using Heal Bell effectively.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p> Blissey has a very wide movepool and it has many excellent additional options beyond what are listed in the set comments above. Thunderbolt is an option over Ice Beam and Flamethrower if you wish to prevent Cloyster from setting up Spikes willy nilly. Growl may seem a rather gimmicky option on Blissey, but it can be usable if Blissey manages to hit a physical attacker on the switch. Curse users will have a slightly harder time setting up on Blissey if it uses Growl, but STAB physical attacks will still do heavy damage even after the Attack drop. Growl also has really high PP, which will allow it to stall out special attackers thereby forcing these opponents to switch. However, keep in mind that Vaporeon and its brethren will be nearly impossible to stall out with Blissey unless it has both Light Screen and Growl. The reason being Growth's incredibly high 63 PP.</p>

    <p>Blissey's massive special bulk, walling ability, access to Light Screen, and the potential for status will put pressure on most special attackers. This kind of pressure will often force switches makind Spikes support a really good idea. Forretress with its great Defense and Steel-typing makes a great Blissey partner, considering Forretress is more geared toward keeping Spikes on the field in the long run. However, Cloyster is another great Spikes user with great Defense and better offensive stats than Forretress. Cloyster is much less likely to be used as set up bait than Forretress, but it will find it slightly more difficult to maintain Spikes over the course of a longer battle. Any Blissey analysis would be remiss to not mention Skarmory. "SkarmBliss" continues to be a fearsome combo, providing excellent synergy, and stopping power versus a wide range of threats. However, in GSC this combo is not quite as strong as it is in future generations. Still, Skarmory provides great phazing support against opposing physical attackers trying to set up on Blissey. Skarmory, Growth Vaporeon, Cloyster, Forretress, and Phazing Raikou are all examples of Pokemon that often use Rest without Sleep Talk, and enjoy Heal Bell support. Other notable sweepers without Sleep Talk include Belly Drum Snorlax and Marowak. With Heal Bell support Snorlax can set up Belly Drum multiple times in a single match by recovering its health with Rest once it finishes sweeping. This strategy is known as "Turbo-boosting" in some circles. Blissey can also Heal Bell against Electric-types that may try and KO Starmie. Keeping Starmie healthy and status free will go a long way to preventing the opponent from setting up entry hazards with impunity. Blissey's ability to boost its team's special defense with Light Screen is especially beneficial to Marowak and Machamp who enjoy the boosted defenses while setting up.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Blissey has quite a large movepool, but unfortunately it isn't able to use it to its full effectiveness because of its low Special Attack and the compatability issues with Heal Bell. The following moves are decent options that Blissey cannot run alongside Heal Bell due to move restrictions. This restriction unfortunately limits the usability of these moves, but they are still worth mentioning. Reflect would be perfect for Blissey, boosting its pitiful Defense to more managable levels. However, because Blissey is so focused on providing clerical support giving up Heal Bell for the Defense Boost is rare. Blissey can surprise physically oriented attackers with Counter, gaining a free KO if it plays it right. Since Blissey will often survive most physical attacks at full health, making Counter a usable option if Blissey can maintain the element of surprise until the right time comes to use it. With Counter Blissey can make life very awkward for Tyranitar, Nidoking, and mixed Snorlax by removing their ability to fire off STAB attacks with impunity. Blissey can use Seismic Toss for constant damage output, but giving up Heal Bell for it usually isn't worth the lack of cleric support. Blissey can also use Thunderwave over Toxic if it wants to neuter opponents with paralysis rather than wear them down with Toxic. </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Blissey is incredibly weak to nearly all physical attackers, and is especially weak to those who can boost. Blissey must be very wary of being used as set up bait. Its low Special Attack and susceptibility will make it incredible vulnerable to powerful physical sweepers such as Snorlax. Snorlax can use Blissey as an opportunity to grab a free Curse or Belly Drum boost and then go to town on the switch in. Snorlax can also carry Rest to sleep off any status it could receive from the pink blob. Machamp is another huge thorn in Blissey's side. It has excellent attack, a boosting move in Curse, and Cross Chop. Swords Dance Marowak is another high profile threat because it can grab a free boost as Blissey switches out to avoid its STAB Earthquake. Blissey must also exercise caution against special attackers that carry physically based moves such as Explosion. Gengar for example, has access to both Explosion and Dynamic Punch- which will do major damage to Blissey. Blissey's lack of offensive prowess make it an easy target for Spikes users. Cloyster and Forretress can easily switch in on Blissey and then go to town. Jolteon can use Blissey to easily set up an Agility and then Baton Pass it to a waiting sweeper such as Marowak or Snorlax. Blissey also won't enjoy being put to sleep or being frozen, since it cannot remove these status conditions with Heal Bell. Abusing Blissey's major weakness to physical attacks and set up sweepers is a sure fire way to keep it in check.</p>
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I don't think Counter really deserves its own set. Counter is more of a gimmick since, although Blissey is good at baiting physical attacks, it's even better at baiting setup (e.g., Belly Drum). I'd make Counter an OO among the other moves that are illegal with Heal Bell.

    I'm wrestling with the other 2 moveslots in the main set; I don't think there's really a "standard" set as far as those two moveslots are concerned. Generally, any combination of Toxic/Sing/Light Screen/Growl/Elemental Attacks works, with the basic rule that you shouldn't be doubling up on attacking moves (it is Blissey, after all). I wouldn't make Growl a main option, though. If I was to pick a standard moveset, it'd look something like this:

    Blissey @ Leftovers (duh)
    -Heal Bell (duh)
    -Softboiled (duh)
    -Light Screen
    -Sing

    with Flamethrower, Toxic, Growl, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt/Thunder being in OO or even in AC. Sing might be contestable as the "main" option, but really, what else is Blissey going to be accomplishing? Might as well try to sleep something with that fourth moveslot.

    Again, though, this is hardly the only way to do things. For example, Flamethrower/Ice Beam + Toxic can work to keep Poison-immune things out of your hair (Flamethrower for Steels, Ice Beam for Nidoking), and Thunderbolt + Light Screen lets you support the team while preventing Cloyster from switching in willy-nilly to set up its Spikes. There's a lot of ways to mix and match these last two moveslots, although I should point out that it's not because Blissey has a lot of good options (the opposite is closer to the truth), but more because the other two moves don't really matter... which calls into question why I'd bother writing so much text trying to change them. Hm.
  3. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    I don't like Blissey without any damage moves. It's easy to set-up things in front of him, and without an attacking move, then it become a lot easier.

    And just to put more info on that, there is the Bob's set with Seismic Toss, Reflect, Softboiled and Toxic/Thunder Wave.
  4. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    The rough draft of this analysis is finished. Approval checks would be very much appreciated.
  5. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Pickin some nits here we go

    Not +6 STAB attacks from any of the Eons. This is actually important, because it's intuitive to send Blissey out as Vaporeon is setting up, thinking Blissey should be able to wall Growtheons easily, but the reality is that it doesn't. 999 Sp. Atk Surf from Vap forces you to Softboiled just about every turn, as if you don't Vap outspeeds and can swiftly kill you with a crit. Either way, Surf will out-PP Softboiled in this case. Hydro Pump flatout 2HKOs on average but runs out of PP before Blissey runs out of Softboileds (though RestTalk can give it a couple of extra pumps). Blissey with Light Screen doesn't really fear death so much, and with Light Screen + Growl it manages to out-PP Sleep Talk Vap.

    Blissey is dedicated team support. As such, it doesn't need support, it needs plenty of things to support. Otherwise it's more a liability than an asset.

    Note on Set
    I don't know if I'd call that the "standard" set, but as I said before, it's not really worth arguing over those last two moves. For all intents and purposes, this is close enough. That being said, the moves Growl, Thunderbolt, and Light Screen deserve to be in AC (I'd even put them in the Set Comments themselves), since they're just as viable as what you have listed. I know I said "OO or AC" before, but I lied. It's "AC or Set Comments" for these moves.

    I don't like this sentence. It makes it sound like Blissey v. Miltank is somehow a stall v. offense kind of decision, when really they're both inherently stally Pokemon, they just cover different threats (Blissey walls Special Attackers, Miltank stalls out Mixed Attackers and Cursers).

    Walling ability doesn't force switches. Threats do. Blissey doesn't really pressure any Special Attackers into switching out; Vaporeon sets up on it, failing to be 3HKOed even by the uncommon Thunder (!) while the average Zapdos fails to be 3HKOed by Ice Beam (although it will probably be forced to switch out to avoid eating an untimely crit or freeze). The point is, without the ability to scare most Special Attackers out, Blissey doesn't really force them to do anything. She needs Growl to threaten to stall them out, or Light Screen to threaten to switch to an impervious Snorlax (doesn't work too well against AA Vap), or Ice Beam to threaten to freeze (or in Zapdos' case, to KO with a timely crit).

    Add to Additional Comments
    Drumlax and Rest Marowak love Heal Bell support to wake from their naps and be ready to sweep. If you want to keep Spikes off your side of the field, Blissey easily Bells against the Electrics that threaten to OHKO Starmie. This is important because one key strategy for Ghost-less Cloyster teams to keep Spikes on Starmie is to Poison it then force it to repeatedly take Poison damage as it switches in to spin Spikes and then run away from subsequent Electric switch-ins without having time to Recover.

    This shouldn't be the first sentence. Options that can't be used with Heal Bell should get their own section/paragraph/whatever within OO that is prefaced with this disclaimer.

    Details to some Other Options
    Light Screen is how Blissey can universally force Special Attackers to switch out; namely, by making whatever is about to switch in impervious to Special Attacks. Snorlax don't care about Zapdos' Thunders behind a Screen and just drums up in its face. Growl, on the other hand, gives Blissey the PP it needs to actually stall out Special Attackers instead of acting merely as a pivot against them, in addition to letting it neutralize Physical switch-ins and stall out weaker Cursers (i.e., Steelix). Note that to stall out Vaporeon, you need both Light Screen to mitigate 999 Sp. Atk Surf damage and Growl to match Growth's monstrous 63 PP.

    Placement within Other Options
    Thunder Wave is incompatible with Heal Bell, yet it's mentioned in the first paragraph with the other moves usable with Heal Bell. It should be moved.

    Not really. Counter makes life real awkward for any Physical attacker that doesn't set up. Nidoking and Tyranitar can't just fire off STABs like they otherwise could. Counter Blissey also makes MixLax's life hell (though if MixLax is of the Double-Edge variety, it kind of struggles to get past Blissey anyway thanks to the monstrous recoil). In addition, Drumlax, who's usually averse to wasting half its health with a poorly-timed Belly Drum, is pretty much forced to use Belly Drum recklessly lest it be unable to OHKO Blissey and consequently put itself at risk of Counter OHKO if it just fires off STABs.

    Note on Checks and Counters
    Good job with this section. I'd just mention Snorlax first because he's impervious to everything that Blissey could do to it (aside from the odd Sing or Counter). Rest for Toxic, takes no meaningful damage from any of its attacking moves. Other attackers like Marowak and Machamp get irreparably nailed by Toxic (and in the former's case, it's weak to Ice Beam to boot).


    It's a solid analysis overall. My edits can probably be broken down into three categories: things that I want reorganized, things that I think need some explanation of a particularly abstract concept, and things where I'm probably just getting hung up over semantics. Good work!

    The problems with this analysis are, as I said, mostly nits that I felt I needed to pick (the daunting size of this post notwithstanding), so pending appropriate edits in response to this post, I'll slap an APPROVED stamp on this.
  6. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Jorgen many thanks for your excellent suggestions. You might want to do a cursory check before you approve the analysis to make sure I implemented all of your suggestions correctly. Other than that this analysis should be ready for final approval pending any additional comments or suggestions!
  7. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Screen should be in the main set. It's much more useful that attacking with it imo.

    The advantages of each attacking move should specify more imo, for example list examples: toxic works against mix and physical sweepers that aren't immune to it, and can be useful against Raikou, while sometimes making Snorlax think twice about drumming. FT is for steels, prevents forr from spiking, and steelix; ice beam is for Nidoking, Marowak and Rhydon, and can freeze. and in addition has a chance to take out zapdos with a ch or max damage. Tbolt prevents Cloyster from comfortably spiking, thats about it, but its still enough for considering it. Maybe Seismic Toss, it could also be useful against drumlax.

    Blissey doesn't need an attacking move though, if you wanted ice beam for nidoking or ft for steelix or w/e i'd rather go with something else to take on them (aka miltank). I personally only pick Blissey over Miltank when I have something else to cover what miltank is supposed to (i.e. ttar) and something benefits from screen support (i.e. wak/champ).

    Maybe mention that Sing is also useful for opposing beller matchup.

    Um, if I'm not mistakened, Vap can just PP stall this out.

    and most mixsweepers

    and screens, sleeps, reflects.
    In general you might want to move the comparison between thw two bellers to the overview... thats what id do at least.
    Oh and maybe my 3rd para could be something worth taking into account when comparing them, when to use each one in general.

    not sure about this, forr is geared more toward keeping spikes if anythings, while cloy offers more on both the offensive and defensive side really.

    Mention Machamp as a good partner imo, alongside Wak, especially if you are screening.

    ugh, eggy never uses rest... you could add cloy and forr there.


    In general I think the main "problem" is that the analysis doesn't give Light screen enough credit. Maybe i'm biased though? Apart from that, great analysis (too soon to approve it already though...)
  8. .Maguss.

    .Maguss.

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    IMO, you're not. I even think the standard moveset for Blissey is Softboiled, Heal Bell, Light Screen and Ice Beam.

    Heal Bell, Light Screen and Sing are the 3 most important moves Blissey learns in terms of offense. They're the only ones that can actually do support for the team offense. Toxic is probably the fourth, but everyone learns it. Heal Bell and Light Screen are rare moves.
  9. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

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    While I feel really uncomfortable using Blissey without an attacking move, I gotta agree with Light Screen deserving more attention and stuff.
    Comparing Bliss and Miltank on the overview fits better imo, especially for GSC beginners.
  10. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Added more information regarding Light setScreen and moved it to the main set. I also changed the overview to bring in more discussion about Miltank vs. Blissey. If there are any other suggestions I would be glad to hear them. This analysis is really close to being ready for final approval checks. Thanks for your time.
  11. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    imo, the main set should look something like this since the attacking move is arguably the first one you'd generally want to drop between screen/status/attack :

    name:Special Wall
    move 1: Softboiled
    move 2: Heal Bell
    move 3: Light Screen / Ice Beam / Flamethrower
    move 4: Sing / Toxic / Light Screen
    item: Leftovers

    The possible combinations of this version include Screen+status, screen+attack and attack+status. I don't think Toxic+sing or IB+FT are worth considering.

    When you talk about set comments and good partners I think it should be more oriented towards using Blissey OVER Miltank imo. This means, talk about why you should or could be using B over M depeding on your teammates. This includes having another Snorlax check (assuming you are already using Skarm, this could be anything between ttar, don and missy). Plus, since screen is one of the main advantages of Blissey, things like Wak and Champ now become especially good partners since behind a screen the opponent will usually have to phaze them rather than counter them with offense. Moreover, Snorlax also benefits from screen, as it lets him drum in the face of thunder zapdos (and kou to an extent, but it could be phazing).
    Or maybe because you want beller + electric coverage in one, thereby opening up Snorlax if it was the only Pokemon that could switch into electrics. Or even if you are too desesperate against Vap, but you want a beller too(but I don't think this Vap idea is worth mentioning anyway).
    I don't think spikers are first paragraph worthy imo. Really, Spikes doesn't benefit Blissey more than they benefit something like Miltank. Of course Blissey implies slow stall, and spikes are always great for slow stall teams, but still.
  12. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Just a few suggestions:

    .

    Take this out, it makes it sound like letting Vap get to +6 and stalling it with Blissey is a perfectly reasonable situation. It's not. Blissey should be swapping out for an electric after setting up that screen, since without Growl (not a slash on the main set), it gets PP'd by all Vap variants, and even with Growl it only manages to out-PP Sleep Talk Vaporeon.

    Vaporeon's most common set is the Sleep Talker. Take out all the things that Rest without Sleep Talk, it's not really important. The only specific example you need to mention with Heal Bell is TurboDrum. For everything else, you can just say Heal Bell is just useful in general for removing statuses, that's an intuitive enough concept.

    Blissey doesn't force switches. Don't get me wrong, Spikes are a great asset for any Blissey team, but not because Blissey itself is forcing switches. It's more or less because using Blissey guarantees you're using a team that intends to fight a drawn-out battle where Spikes will be at their most influential.


    It's not just for making Blissey more sturdy, it's for neutralizing and Physical attacker that's likely to switch in on Blissey.


    Checks and Counters:

    *A lot of those threats are ruined by a Toxic on the switch.
    *Mention Vaporeon here. It really drives home the point that Blissey does NOT beat Vaporeon, and that Vaporeon usually ends up beating Blissey, even though Vaporeon is a Special Attacker and Blissey is a Special Wall. The specifics of the matchup are a bit more complicated than that; specifically, Blissey with Light Screen and Growl will have enough PP to outlast standard Sleep Talk Vaporeon, though other Vaporeon sets have even higher PP counts, or in Ice Beam's case, can go for the Freeze. Any other Blissey set loses to all Vaporeon sets.



    The number of nits picked here was small. I'll go ahead and APPROVE. (for reals this time, yo)
  13. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Great suggestions! I will implement them as soon as I can. However, I should note that for the next two months I will be working as camp staff and won't always be able to update as often as usual. Thanks for understanding.
  14. Lockeness

    Lockeness (e^(i╥))+1=0

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    Sorry for the double post, but I have come to the conclusion that I no longer have the time or energy to complete this analysis. I would appreciate it if someone else would be willing to take it over. I will be going on hiatus with regards toward writing for the site for the next 2 months.
  15. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Okay, I'll go for it. Is there a way I can get the right to edit the OP or I have to start a new thread?
  16. Danilo

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    you would need a mod to edit it. you should probably just start a new thread and a mod will move this one.
  17. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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