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Gen 2 Blissey

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by magic9mushroom, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    So, since it was brought up in the Rankings thread, I thought I'd check some of my assumptions about how to use Blissey. Everything I say here I'm not sure about, so don't hesitate to correct me and don't take it as gospel.

    So, here goes what I've managed to piece together and reason out.

    - Blissey is bad alongside CurseLax and other Rest Laxen since it competes for the Electric switch-in. That leaves DrumLax and SDLax; DrumLax is probably preferred because of Turbo Drumming.

    - Blissey is bad alongside Raikou because again, it competes for the Electric switch-in. So you should be using Zapdos alongside Blissey.

    - Blissey is bad alongside Miltank because you only need one Beller. It would also seem to be bad alongside Tyranitar since then you've got two Pokemon OHKOed by Machamp. So that would seem to leave Gengar and Misdreavus as your possible FireLax switch-ins.

    Am I on the right track here about how to make Blissey work?
  2. Borat

    Borat

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    blissey has sing.

    blissey has light screen.

    if you don't abuse these either/both moves (note: abuse, not just use), there's literally no reason to run her.
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I don't really know how to use Light Screen Blissey effectively. So you switch in on a special, and throw up Light Screen as they presumably switch to a physical. Then what? What can come in on a physical and make use of Light Screen to achieve something? AA Vaporeon? Steelix?
  4. Borat

    Borat

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    i think charizard/marowak primarily, or vap whose main threat are electrics.
  5. Jorgen

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    Blissey's role is mostly Heal Bell. There's a reason people forego the opportunity to use Twave, Reflect, SToss, and Counter. The hits Bliss tanks are tanked way harder than anything Miltank can tank, making it a lot easier to get Bliss in to pull off the Heal Bell. The problem is that it's a much more specialized role player.

    Light Screen and Sing are okay, I guess, but more difficult to see actual use out of, and not what I'd call the main reasons to use Blissey. Since you typically have to spend turns forcing Snorlax or whatever to switch out, Blissey's Light Screen is normally useful for punishing Electrics for trying to stall Bliss (in which case, you do get to set a Ground up, or a Drumlax) and for buffering Skarm against Fire Blasts, rather than setting up Charizard or something. Sing can be surprising, but will catch your opponent 0.55 times per match, and is a dead moveslot after that.
  6. Borat

    Borat

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    well yeah heal bell is the main reason, but sing/ls is the main reason you'd use her over the other beller.
    Floppy likes this.
  7. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Blissey is an easy heal bell and/or light screen vs electrics and special threats.
    Light Screen can help a lot of sweepers like Vaporeon, Marowak or Machamp, as well as protecting Skarm from Thunders and Fire Blasts.

    Not really, because Lax can have trouble vs Zapdos with Spikes. They also have completely different roles: Blissey's role is just support with Heal Bell, Light Screen. Light Screen could actually help BDLax a lot. Without Light Screen, Zapdos could potentially stop Lax using BD because Thunder does like 33%, but with Light Screen, it can easily BD vs Zapdos and destroy something, especially if the team also has Reflect support.
    Blissey CAN support lax p well, and it might sometimes even be better than Miltank because flamethrower can threaten Skarm, while Miltank just gives Skarm free turns, and it can easily Heal Bell vs any special attacker.

    You are not using Bliss just because its an Electric switch-in. The reason to use it is: Light Screen and Heal Bell, and Raikou can't learn those.

    Yeah, you should choose one if you want a cleric.
    Blissey can easily switch into any special attacker and Heal Bell, and it has the Light Screen advantage. It can also threaten Skarm with FT as I said before, which could be nice. It could also fish for a freeze with IB (outspeeding Wak is also nice). It can also Growl, so it's not a complete Curselax set up fodder, but it's obv much worse than Miltank at that role.
    Miltank is faster, it is much better vs physical and mixed threats, it will stop most cursers with Growl, and it can para things with Body Slam.

    You forgot Umbreon, which is also a great FB lax switch-in, and also Rhydon.
    Having 2 mons that are OHKOed by Machamp (and min 3 mons weak to CC counting Lax) is not a bad thing, you have 3 more mons to cover it.
    Tyranitar and Bliss could be used together.
  8. jaQ

    jaQ

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    Who cares if 2 mons are killed by cross chop? Even if 4 pokes die to cross chop easily then you should be ok. Zapdos pretty much deals with machamp anyway and if you still have problems having one of skarmory, exeggutor, or starmie will almost ensure he never does much. Hera does well too. forry if no fireblast. I'm sure there's more. I'd worry about marowaks a lot more than machamps.

    The rest makes sense, drumlax gets more showtime alongside blissey since she takes her share of the specials. And as stated charizard, maro and a few others benefit from light screen so it's not all about the cow.
  9. Mr.E

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    Yeah you generally have to spend a couple turns shooing off Snorlax or whatever after putting up a Light Screen with Blissey but you still get the tail end of it with a Marowak or whatever, which now Starmie can't come in and punish because you can just tank the hit (easier) and kill it. It also makes Roar Raikou look like a massive dork.

    e.g.
    1) Light Screen on switch to Snorlax.
    2) Switch to Skarmory and take hit. Light Screen insulates you from Fire Blast too if they run it.
    3) Double switch Marowak into impending Raikou.
    4) Swords Dance.
    5) gg

    It's nice for a lot of things but Marowak works pretty well with it, since it's the only thing that can kill everything. Machamp does too but doesn't have an immunity to switch in against (as fragile as Marowak otherwise is) and Curse doesn't setup offensively as quickly.
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I was specifically talking about CurseLax, Rest MixLax, and ToxicLax, not Rest DrumLax. Sorry.


    I see. Forgot about Umbreon.
  11. Bummer

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    This was actually brought up over at The Smog some time ago. For filthy casuals like me, the term SkarmBliss makes you believe that both of them were as common during the GSC days, but given the discussion of this thread, it clearly doesn't seem to be the case. Is this something that has developed after Gen III started, or was Blissey the Donphan of Gen II? (although strictly speaking, Donphan was the Donphan of Gen II) Was the term 'SkarmBliss' conceived at a later Gen even though the core components both appeared at the same time? this is what keeps me up at night
  12. M Dragon

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    No, Blissey was actually much more common back in the day (Im talking 2000-2002 or so) than now.
  13. Borat

    Borat

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    THIS WILL BE PART OF THE TALK. maybe, most likely. tune in.
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Talk?
  15. MoxieInfinite

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    Cast.
  16. Isa

    Isa

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    When a mom and a dad loves each other very much...
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  17. Bedschibaer

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    I wouldn't call Blissey the Donphan of gen 2 at all. Donphan (in gen 6, i assume) for example has barely any niche in OU. Outclassed by excadrill in almost every way, alot less versatile than forry for example, etc. It even lost alot of the whole sun team spinner niche. Blissey in gen 2 on the other hand does have huge usefulness, like elaborated in this thread it does have things over the other Heal Beller (safer belling, ls, sing, etc) while being outclassed by Miltank in other things (speed, checking snorlax/most cursers better, etc). Generally there is alot more reason to run the arguably worse cleric in gen 2 than the arguably worse spinner in gen 6.
  18. Rotosect

    Rotosect Banned deucer.

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    Blissey is the special wall in Gen 2 and one of its best pokemon, no questions asked.
    The thing is, after people realized just how good she is if left unchecked, they started carrying things that could either break through or take advantage of her, creating a sort of backlash that is never going to change because the GSC metagame is not evolving anymore (or if it is, it happens and an incredibly slow pace).
    If GSC was still popular then the metagame would keep shifting and Blissey would go through the usual "top tier/not so good" cycles every top tier threat goes. Look no further than Deoxys-S in the current XY metagame for a concrete example.
  19. Borat

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    so how good is blissey if she is left unchecked?

    edit: for example, espeon is good if "unchecked" by ttar. espeon has a matchup adv against gengars. ttar is good against both of these things. rise of ttar = fall of espeon. however ttar is fairly mediocre at other stuff, so no gengar/espeons/fb lax, then fall of ttar. here you have an actual cycle. how would the blissey cycle work?

    blissey is good in a [meta]game where prediction takes precedence over strategy. fundamentally, apart from light screen setting up shit, she poses no threat to anyone.

    this isn't true either. a lot of what make "top tier threats" top tier is their consistency. snorlax has never NOT been #1. zapdos/raikou (in their hp forms) are always good. starmie/skarm has largely been the same thing for 10 years. if you discount the initial "brooding" stages of a metagame where most people dont have a single clue what they're doing, most metagames stabilize without some drastic rule change/whatever. there isn't a random shift in a stabilized metagame. pokemon isn't rock, paper, scissors.
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  20. magic9mushroom

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    No, "the" special walls are Snorlax and Raikou, because they can actually force switches and either set up (in Snorlax's case) or phaze (in Raikou's case). Blissey is walled by half of OU no matter its set and by another 25% or so depending on its and their sets (Steelix auto-wins if Blissey's not running Flamethrower, Tyranitar if it's running Rest or if Blissey's not running Toxic, etc). Blissey cedes momentum almost completely, and actually fails to defeat a lot of the specials (Vaporeon in particular) because it can't fight back or stop them setting up, and can often be just flat-out PP-stalled. If you're using Blissey, you're using it for its utility moves - Heal Bell and Light Screen - not its walling power.
  21. Borat

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    that's not entirely true. in blissey's case, the stuff she walls, she WALLS (e.g. zapdos, raikou). in these scenarios, you can do a lot more double switches because she can handle far more punishment, whereas raikou fears the thunder paras and lax gets worn down eventually, whereas blissey is taking ~10% after lefties, and it really doesn't matter that much if she's paralyzed -- she can almost always still come in on the inevitable zapdos/raikou.

    ...in a spikes-free environment.
  22. magic9mushroom

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    By the same token, though, there's a lot more things that can double-switch on a predicted Blissey and ruin you than there are things that can double-switch on Lax/Kou and have it mean something.
  23. Bedschibaer

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    Blissey is the best special wall when it comes to the sheer amout of special hits it can take. Period. Lax (even though not always primarily played as a wall) and Kou have the big advantage to actually threaten things they are supposed to wall, while blissey can "only" use those created turns for fancy team support.
    Example given, i would call the electrics the top special attacking threats in gsc ou. Lax counters both, raikou counters zapdos and walls opposing raikou. They can actually be forced out and/or beaten. What exactly is blissey doing? The best thing to damage them is to toxic, too bad both electrics run rest on their standard sets, which will also make pp stalling not that easy of an issue. Same goes for vaporeon, lax and kou can significantly damage it, stop it from setting up, to simplify it - beat it (please don't bomb me with aa vap and all those set up calcs, i am just trying to get a point across here). Blissey can again only toxic that mon forcing it to rest, but has a hard time beating in 1on1 because crits exist. Not to mention the potential free turns blissey gives your opponent. Blissey just can't punish switchins the way kou and lax do, and that is pretty much why i'd also put kou as the special wall.
  24. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Blissey does have a potential 3HKO on Zapdos with Ice Beam, but it's very unlikely both on rolls and because of the way RestTalk works in GSC (ie, 5/9 of calculated 3HKOs fail to actually KO because it Sleep Talks Rest).
  25. Rotosect

    Rotosect Banned deucer.

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    But Blissey isn't supposed to stay in against the electric legendaries all the time. If she forces them to use Rest and then you switch to another pokemon who can take advantage of a sleeping Raikou/Zapdos, she has done her job. While they're sleeping it's them who create free turns for you, given how unreliable Sleep Talk is.
    And, yes, this is an effective strategy in GSC.

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