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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Mario With Lasers, Sep 27, 2010.
What do you guys think about giving Blissey Icy Wind?
Lowering speed can cripple a lot of things if done correctly. But the power output is terrible, and if you want to cripple something's speed, just use thunderwave.
True, but this works on ground types and Pokemon with Refresh (Latias) which is why I use it over Thunder wave
I was thinking about using blissey/chansey to help counter celebi, as not much can safely switch into her, but then I remembered that celebi also gets perish song. Blissey and chansey are extremely difficult pokemon to use in the current metagame. A lot of special attackers they're supposed to be countering have ways of getting past them.
Then again, Blissey cannot do much to Celebi, except for walling her. Perish Song will just force both of you out.
Blissey doesn't even counter Celebi. LO Celebi flat out 2HKO's Blissey at +6. Modest non-LO also has a chance to 2HKO. Timid or more defensive versions can just spam Giga Drain (or even better, Earth Power) and hope for a crit.
Chansey, on the other hand, takes only, at most, 338 damage from a +6 non-LO Modest Celebi. So if Sandstorm isn't present, she can comfortably wall it. Sadly, +6 LO Modest Celebi hits for 438 and even a Timid one can do 400 (Still talking about maximum damage). In any case, you should be switching in your pink blob of choice as Celebi pops its first Nasty Plot, then hitting it with Toxic right after its second. This gives you a free turn of Toxic damage along with a move of choice (Seismic Toss to help rack up damage or Wish to deal with the following Giga Drain or counter switch in). Afterwards, you can stall out the Toxic damage by healing 352 after every 438 and spam Protect if you have it.
Ummm... Celebi is the least of Blissey's concerns, seeing as it, you know, walls it pretty completely. It's all very well to say +6 Celebi does X amount of damage, but you are going to have to actually find the time to get to +6 in the first place.
In any case, by far the most common Blissey variant (WishBliss) can stall out Celebi through a combination of Toxic, Wish and Protect (and maybe throwing in the occasional Seismic Toss, if you have the opportunity). As Melee Mewtwo notes above, you can switch in and Toxic Celebi - and the most it could possibly be at is +4. Not to mention that said Celebi not only has to deal with toxic damage, but life orb recoil as well (and no leftovers to help with toxic damage).
A few Calcs:
Modest 252 Sp. Atk Life Orb Celebi @:
+0 = 15.97% - 18.63% (8-10HKO) (lol)
+2 = 31.51% - 36.97% (4HKO)
+4 = 47.06% - 55.18% (2-3HKO)
+6 = 62.75% - 73.95% (2HKO)
So yes, a +6 Life Orb Modest Celebi can get past Blissey - however, this isn't really saying much, as it presumes that you're going to use your counter incorrectly, i.e. just 'letting' Celebi get to +6 somehow. So long as you don't, then Blissey hard counters Celebi.
Celebi Switches in to battle. You switch out to Blissey as Celebi goes Nasty Plot. Celebi goes for Nasty Plot again, Blissey uses Toxic.
Thus, Celebi is only at +4, is already Toxic'ed, and after Leftovers recovery, can only 3HKO unless it goes for another Nasty Plot, while Blissey uses Seismic Toss, or Wish (in preparation to take a hit). Meanwhile, Blissey is still at full health (assuming no sandstorm, SR damage would have been healed by Lefties at this point).
Eh, this is getting a bit tl;dr. I just wanted to point out that Celebi can't really get past Blissey. You probably get the point.
I really hope that made sense. I'm so tired right now @_@
Don't forget that when Celebi uses +2 Giga Drain on Blissey, it recovers just over 1/4 of it's health, easily negating the Toxic damage. While Celebi will struggle to beat Toxic Blissey 1v1, it will often welcome the Blissey switch in as a chance to regain a good chunk of it's health.
Perhaps a bit late reply, but Icy Wind has uses on the right teams. I am using it right now, on a team that tries to force switches for entry hazard damage (icy wind/charm/softboiled/SR)
You should obviously have Spikes up as well.
Yeah, cause that really improves the thread
But on a serious note should blissy invest in defence or special defence, i was leaning more towards defence because it is alreday a boss special wall and that defence Ev's may help it but what do you guys think?
Is CharmBliss still a viable option? I can't run Wish due to mostly playing on wi-fi with friends who aren't cool with it.
Haven't played since last Gen -_-, but I have fond memories of Charm doing wonderful things for racking up entry hazard damage by forcing switches.
Always invest in Defense on Blissey. It doesn't need the extra special defense for 99% of threats anyway. However, whether to invest in HP or not is a whole other debate.
The long standard has been 252 Hp 252 Def, but recently some people have started claiming that that's for n00bs and that 252 SpD and 252 Def is better, providing better overall special bulk, if slightly less physical bulk. This lessens the likelyhood of things like SpecsToed 2HKOing you with a layer of hazards and the like, but also lowers the healing power of your wishes by 30HP or so (can be important for mons with abilities that only activate at full HP), and makes you a little less defensively bulky.
I haven't tried the new spread so I can't say for sure, but I can say that running 252 Def and Bold is the standard no matter what you subscribe to.
People need to understand how viable Paraflinch Blissey is... It can troll entire teams xD
I use 252 Def / 252 Sp Def and can say that it is very effective.
Just to show case some stats, pretty much the only physical hits Blissey should ever take:
Tyranitar 252 Jolly -> Blissey 252 HP / 252 Def Bold: 34.04% - 40.06%
Tyranitar 252 Jolly -> Blissey 4 HP / 252 Def Bold: 37.27% - 43.87%
The damage from regular dugtrio is rather pathetic with it capping at 38.8% on 6 HP / 252 Def. So choice band:
Choice Band Dugtrio 252 Jolly -> Blissey 252 HP / 252 Def Bold: 44.96% - 52.94%
Choice Band Dugtrio 252 Jolly -> Blissey 4 HP / 252 Def Bold: 49.23% - 57.98%
Choice Band Scizor 252 Adamant -> Blissey 252 HP / 252 Def Bold: 36.41% - 43%
Choice Band Scizor 252 Adamant -> Blissey 4 HP / 252 Def Bold: 39.88% - 47.09%
And the infamous Politoed
Choice Specs Politoed 252 Modest -> Blissey 252 HP / 4 SpD Bold: 40.34% - 47.62%
Choice Specs Politoed 252 Modest -> Blissey 4 HP / 252 SpD Bold: 36.81% - 43.4%
From using Blissey I can assure you that the damage from Tyranitar and Scizor is manageable even with the 3% loss because you just recover that damage as they are switching in. Dugtrio might cause some problems, but choice band is only found 10% of the time on Dugtrio. While on the other hand, you are using Blissey to counter special attacks all the time, lose it to a powerful special attacker by 4 or 5% (which happens) you may lose the game.
Yes. But only if you have a good reason to use it (entry hazards)
I think that Skarmbliss works quite well, but some must be wary of a Mixape or Magnezone trapping Skarmory. Still, Skarmory can run a Shed Shell or Whirlwind and Blissey can run Flamethrower. If Heatran tries to counter the combo, then it may have sucess because Skarmory is threatened out, and Blissey is forced to come in. If Blissey does not run Seismic Toss, then there will be problems.
Magnezone won't ever come in on blissey though. It will just switch out of blissey once your opponent notices that you hve a shed shell.
I have very little faith in skarm bliss in fifth generation. To be honest, I didn't have much faith in it back in fourth generation either. Infernape is not the only Pokemon who gives you trouble
SkarmBliss by itself has alot more difficulty succeeding in the 5th gen metagame. Back in GSC times it was very viable pretty much by itself, but with all the new threats (stuff like Terrakion and Lucario) SkarmBliss needs alot more support. Alot of times this support tends to be other defensive members, essentially creating a full blown stall team. I just wanted to mention that SkarmBliss isn't useless, it has just evolved as the metagame has.
SkarmBliss is broken up easily by fighting type attacks (whether physical or special), which are all too popular this gen. That's why tertiary member who resists fighting type is always paired up with it, the most popular being Tentacruel and Jellicent. SkarmBliss can't function on its own it needs a tertiary member otherwise it will be ripped apart by fighting type attacks.
Well obviously Infernape can just roflstomp SkarmBliss or any other fighting type with STAB. Victini in Sun walks ALL over SkarmBliss with it's 150 base powered STAB move. As for a third member, Starmie is often overlooked as an OU special sweeper, but many are unaware of it's defensive set. The following set is the one i usually run with SkarmBliss:
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Starmie @ Leftovers Lv. 100 -- Illuminate
Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Starmie @ Leftovers Lv. 100 -- Illuminate
Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Defensive starmies still love their speed to check things, and cosmic power is trash. This set is much better:
Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 12 SAtk / 224 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Psychic / Psyshock
Personally though, as a stall player I am not a huge fan of this set as it isn't quite sturdy enough for what I need.
Also, on Blissey, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Calm, is more effective than 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold.
Just to reiterate what the above poster said, 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD should never be run with Bold. The nature gives higher boosts to higher stats, so unless the Def goes along with a huge HP stat, it's not worth going Bold.
Pretty sure percentage boosts don't work that way. Disregarding rounding, Bold lets it take physical hits 10% better and Calm lets it take special hits 10% better, regardless of the raw numbers.
Blissey always has a huge HP stat, that's one of the main reasons it's such a good wall.